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Goodbye Forums...?

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  • DANNYdaniDANNYdani
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,760
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    Member
    I know there can be PLENTY of improvements in places where it's proven to be better in.
    (if I worded that right?) Point is, I'd hate to see things that CLEARLY needs improvement to get worse... And that I hope this doesn't end up kinda like YouTube(How YouTube's become more strict with their "employees" but still keep them in the dark), I know we're not employee's of Nexon, but I hope none of us ends up even more in the dark, like, I know things get talked about and SOMETIMES we do get answers(which is technically better than YouTube) but I STILL don't EVER wanna see this get worse.

    So I do extremely hope things get better, and that we improve more in the future.
    I just don't want this to some-how end up the forum-version of YouTube(Since some YouTube channels get banned for nothing, or for a very grey-area'd reason).

    This is all I'm gonna say for now x'D
    Sherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,285
    Posts: 780
    Member, Volunteer Forum Moderator
    ForeRunia wrote: »
    It's a little bizarre that things get ninja-edited without a reason being provided, to be honest. I've never seen this behavior on any other forum I've been in. Then again, every other forum I've been in allows us to view all previous versions of a comment(when edited) and who edited the comment. There's no excuse to keep things hidden if there is nothing to hide. There's a lot of things that can be done to make users aware of what is happening, while maintaining privacy when necessary. Making a post in the thread, editing the comment(and signing it), or even PM'ing the user directly. Right now, it looks like everything that's questionable is being hidden. And events that don't follow this trend are few and far in between. It should never be assumed that a comment can be ninja-edited or even deleted before someone has seen it.
    Well the ninjas are all GM forum accounts(you can hover over the EDITED @ TIME text to see who did the edit), so it's not like Nexon is picking random people to do it. Honestly DMs would work great, but that would require the ninjas to stop being ninjas, though they never should have been hidden in the first place.
    SebastianForeRuniaSherri
  • SebastianSebastian
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,820
    Posts: 300
    Member
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Well the ninjas are all GM forum accounts(you can hover over the EDITED @ TIME text to see who did the edit), so it's not like Nexon is picking random people to do it. Honestly DMs would work great, but that would require the ninjas to stop being ninjas, though they never should have been hidden in the first place.

    Basically this, or some new system that's essentially just a DM session between the accused and the GMs
    ForeRunia
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,560
    Posts: 1,025
    Member
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Well the ninjas are all GM forum accounts(you can hover over the EDITED @ TIME text to see who did the edit), so it's not like Nexon is picking random people to do it. Honestly DMs would work great, but that would require the ninjas to stop being ninjas, though they never should have been hidden in the first place.

    Basically this, or some new system that's essentially just a DM session between the accused and the GMs

    I feel like we're walking a thin line on the forums sometimes. Criticism should be welcomed as long as its constructive, and I'm worried where things are heading now are going to lead to anything remotely negative being ban worthy or being ninja'd out. So like, saying whoever designed g21 should be fired isn't constructive at all, but making a suggestion such as "I think tagar hits too hard, and the attack is a little too fast. The speed of the attack should be slowed a bit, or give a larger window to react to make it more enjoyable as a storyline" that's constructive.

    Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill who knows.
    KensamaofmariSebastian
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,525
    Posts: 1,813
    Member
    edited September 24, 2018
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Well the ninjas are all GM forum accounts(you can hover over the EDITED @ TIME text to see who did the edit), so it's not like Nexon is picking random people to do it. Honestly DMs would work great, but that would require the ninjas to stop being ninjas, though they never should have been hidden in the first place.

    Basically this, or some new system that's essentially just a DM session between the accused and the GMs

    I feel like we're walking a thin line on the forums sometimes. Criticism should be welcomed as long as its constructive, and I'm worried where things are heading now are going to lead to anything remotely negative being ban worthy or being ninja'd out. So like, saying whoever designed g21 should be fired isn't constructive at all, but making a suggestion such as "I think tagar hits too hard, and the attack is a little too fast. The speed of the attack should be slowed a bit, or give a larger window to react to make it more enjoyable as a storyline" that's constructive.

    Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill who knows.

    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me
  • DANNYdaniDANNYdani
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,760
    Posts: 693
    Member
    The comment about me apparently drinking ticked me off a bit, clearly this toxic human being doesn't know who I am, as well as clearly assuming I'm talking about someone who I never even heard of until I read the post.
    Quit being toxic and stay out of this forum thread, or I will report you for bullying by this point.

    ANYWAYS /back on topic/
    I feel like what would be a good idea, is one PM warning, but this PM warning any Admin can see as well as VFM's, that way if this person did it again, there's proof that they've been told too stop as well as having proof that everyone who could see the PM understood that the player KNEW not to do it, so when they get the warning placed on their account - account, they can't really complain or get upset.

    For example: lets say someone is purposely bullying many players, they get reported, and ended up getting a DM saying that if it happens again, a warning will be placed on the account, but the person thinks of it as a joke and continues to do so, a warning gets placed on their account, they keep doing it, no more account.

    this is all I'll say for now.
    SebastianGretaSherri
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,600
    Posts: 976
    Member
    I was wondering about these "Deleted leaving the forums" posts.

    And I now start to see what a drainage this forum is. I don't visit this place very often, but whenever I do, something stupid always happens. I must either have some terrible timing, or it's just a norm at this point.


    As far as I know, the rules were clear, but weren't ENFORCED clearly. They're all done pretty vaguely to reach "I can do whatever I want for any reason I want".
    And trust in the authorities are diminishing. Probably because there are no one to leash these mods to begin with.
    SherriBronzebreak
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,525
    Posts: 1,813
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    Well, since I thiiink that's over and done with...?
    TNinja wrote: »
    I was wondering about these "Deleted leaving the forums" posts.

    And I now start to see what a drainage this forum is. I don't visit this place very often, but whenever I do, something stupid always happens. I must either have some terrible timing, or it's just a norm at this point.


    As far as I know, the rules were clear, but weren't ENFORCED clearly. They're all done pretty vaguely to reach "I can do whatever I want for any reason I want".
    And trust in the authorities are diminishing. Probably because there are no one to leash these mods to begin with.

    it pretty much is a guessing game, trying to find out what they're doing cuz' they never tell us anything, or so it seems.
    plus it's kinda dumb how strict they've been recently :/
    maybe its cuz there is never anything actually 'bad' happening so they're looking for somewhere else to use power?
    though i've seen other forum users get away with insulting behavior too so idk
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,675
    Posts: 2,548
    Member
    edited January 28
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  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,970
    Posts: 5,038
    Member
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    BuffalosDANNYdaniSherri
  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,080
    Posts: 175
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    unless you're me it seems, then all these hypocritrs decide theres not an issue with moderation until it happens to them
    or not just me, but all the previous forumers getting the short end of the stick
    i hope you are all aware you will not be getting any sympathy from us
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,600
    Posts: 976
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    That's roughly vague. "Constructive critism" is pretty opinionated today. People who can't take critique will always look at it as an attack. And then there are people who can't distinguish between critique and being a jack. No one is going to win.
    Sherri
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 19,645
    Posts: 4,379
    Member
    edited September 26, 2018
    TNinja wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    That's roughly vague. "Constructive critism" is pretty opinionated today. People who can't take critique will always look at it as an attack. And then there are people who can't distinguish between critique and being a jack. No one is going to win.

    For those who have taken debate courses, that's how constructive criticism should be developed.

    Edit: And I mean real debate, not those silly shows many politicians get paid to participate in.
    Sherri
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,885
    Posts: 269
    Member
    edited September 27, 2018


    pretty much
    Sherri
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,675
    Posts: 2,548
    Member
    edited January 28
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  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,325
    Posts: 422
    Member
    edited September 27, 2018
    So since I haven't been on the receiving end of any of this, I thought I'd ask...
    The military taught me that the best way to deal with a problem was as such;

    See a problem. Do not make your presence or attention known, if possible.
    If it's a health/safety of self/others problem, immediately stop via whatever means necessary.
    If the above is not true, approach the individual during (if somewhat urgent) or after the problem takes place. Even if the individual noted the problem themselves and corrected it, still follow up via the following steps.
    Isolate them (do not make it obvious to others that that person is in trouble, rather just ask them to help you with a task or w/e). As generally advised, another person should be present to collaborate the account of what happened. This person should not be 'on your side', but rather a neutral, spectator party.

    Note that you saw a problem (at this point do not specify the problem).
    Ask them to identify any problems they may have seen or realized.
    If they identify it, ask them to describe why it is a problem.
    If they don't, identify the problem(s) and then ask them to describe why it is a problem.
    Help them achieve an answer if they are unsure; do not give them the answer(s).
    In any case, do not use accusatory 'I saw you ____' statements. Refrain from personal opinions or statements; heavily reference rules/Standing Orders as much as possible (and relevant); take out as much 'personal touch' of yourself as possible.

    Reference the correct way to perform/overcome the incident/challenge/potential hazard in the future.
    Have them achieve an answer of why this way/the rules/whatever in place is correct. If they have problems with it, reference a supervisor or relevant Safety Officer afterwards. Do NOT make any abrupt changes or corrections that may further cause harm or risk of injury.
    Have them demonstrate the correct way to perform actions.
    Supervise and monitor to ensure that things are done correctly in the future.
    Document everything, including a signature that the conversation took place, as necessary.

    So am I fair in assuming that things are done differently here? If so, why? (Not an interrogation, but I've said multiple times that my biggest complaint with Nexon is lack of communication, so it seems somewhat fitting that the same point is being repeatedly made in this and other threads).

    If I'm going to responded to about one's experiences on here rather than real-time/voice/DMs I'd prefer if people kept their biases out of their responses.

    I've always believed that a CM can make or break a game for the community, and so far I haven't had any criticism of Katherz or the Mod team, but I also haven't had any issues with anyone, either.
    JazmynForeRuniaSherri
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,600
    Posts: 976
    Member
    TNinja wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    That's roughly vague. "Constructive critism" is pretty opinionated today. People who can't take critique will always look at it as an attack. And then there are people who can't distinguish between critique and being a jack. No one is going to win.

    For those who have taken debate courses, that's how constructive criticism should be developed.

    Edit: And I mean real debate, not those silly shows many politicians get paid to participate in.

    And then you get removed or "silenced" because you're "attacking" them.
    That's always fun.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 19,645
    Posts: 4,379
    Member
    TNinja wrote: »
    TNinja wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    I agree, since there's a 'no attacking Nexon' rule and a 'moderators can judge your sentence', so if they think your criticism is 'attacking' in any way, poof you go o3o
    errr thats what it seems like to me

    That's why we have this in CoC:
    - We do welcome feedback and constructive criticism.
    - Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.

    That's roughly vague. "Constructive critism" is pretty opinionated today. People who can't take critique will always look at it as an attack. And then there are people who can't distinguish between critique and being a jack. No one is going to win.

    For those who have taken debate courses, that's how constructive criticism should be developed.

    Edit: And I mean real debate, not those silly shows many politicians get paid to participate in.

    And then you get removed or "silenced" because you're "attacking" them.
    That's always fun.

    It depends on how the situation develops. Either a good civil debate with mutual respect for the other side is done or it becomes an attack where Our Dear Great Leader must purge kinda results.
    Greta
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 20,455
    Posts: 2,381
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    Bans can be temporary, but apparently not warnings?

    Apologies, but the fact I have to behave in such a manner that a moderator has to manually lower my threat level is insipid for a number of reasons.

    Moderators issue such things in order to moderate, when they perceive a need, yet following the rules does not welcome the same type of reactions as breaking them merely in reverse. I have to depend on the moderators to say "Oh hey, Bliss is behaving quite well, let us move her from Medium to Mild!" Which will essentially never happen, not because I continue to misbehave, but due to the attitudes shared between rectifying rule breaking and recognizing lawful behavior.

    It simply does not work, as there is no immediate need to address my behavior when it is within the boundaries of the rules, no reason to report when I am being merely within the rules. It gives the reasonably apathetic moderators too much to handle, nor would most people take such a position as a mother would a child, or a fair legal system towards reformed inmates.

    In essence, these warnings are essentially permanent, unless the moderators are somehow overwhelmingly pleased enough to do me a favour or two. This is particularly unwieldy, as I am solely obligated to not break the rules; not act in a sycophantic manner hoping to not be forgotten.

    The absence of bad behavior does not mean being saint, but merely refraining from it. If I refrain from it and act within the rules, I should be able to go down a level, as I have demonstrated with enough nudging I am capable of following them. However, the system as it is wants me to act more than "someone who follows the rules", in order to butter up the moderators enough that they'll notice my plight.

    Which wouldn't be bad if their moderating was on point, but it isn't, mainly as I cannot expect them to care all that much.

    I don't blame them, (I actually wouldn't care enough to patrol the forums either, hence why I believe they don't either. Especially since Katherz got married. By the way, you actually got hitched. Proud of you Katherz @Katherz) I am simply saying the moderation system the moderators have to use on the new forums is idiotic.

    Solution? Make warnings duration based.
    SherriDANNYdaniBronzebreak
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,525
    Posts: 1,813
    Member
    Yup, very true. Since we last heard, it's being worked on but who knows how long it will take for that to happen? Who knows when it'll be implemented? Knowing our luck it'll take a long time and then it'll be needed to be worked on some more because of some forum breaking bug.
    What hasn't been able to leave my mind though is when someone said that this forum version was specifically made where we are censored more and what scares me is this feels a bit believable with how the forum works.
    All I can say really is I hope it's just me being my paranoid self and I hope everyone can come together and get rid of that scary feeling and make the forums a happy place for everyone, no feeling like a mod is watching your every move with a hand on the warning/ban button 24/7, some new features to make it lively and make you more you, etc.
    I think that would welcome a lot more people into the forums tbh
    Bronzebreak