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Lotboxes and Gambling

GrayStarGrayStar
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edited September 19, 2018 in Feedback and Suggestions
with the way loot boxes are being classified as gambling and all the restrictions that come with, what are you going t odo

Comments

  • MaiaMaia
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    probably just close this thread is what they'll do
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
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    giphy.gif
    GretaSherriKttyRudeCrow
  • GrayStarGrayStar
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    edited September 19, 2018
    i mean there sueing ea, i mean i hate lootboxes but mabinogi is the only game i know with a skill system like this
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
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    edited September 19, 2018
    Nothing because Gacha is not the same as loot boxes and the only people to blame is yourself if you buy gacha and you dont get something, that's not nexon's fault because you are not being promised something good. ALso doing Gacha is not gambling, if you are at the point were you can't control yourself, that's not nexon's fault.

    I mean you can say all trading cards/blind bags are gambling and no one is whining over them.
    Leinei
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
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    edited September 19, 2018
    Also, in actual gambling, you have a chance of getting nothing in exchange for the money you drop in. With Gacha, you always get something. It may be ****, but its something.
    Leinei
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    I dont think Nexon really cares they already got fined like 900k dollars and are still selling gachapons anyway.
  • IAAWIAAW
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    edited September 19, 2018
    The difference is in tangible goods versus digital goods.

    Tangible goods like trading cards are something that can actually be held in your hand. It can be collected, traded, stored, shown off and traded among other people who may be interested. Or you can sell it. Digital goods like lootboxes aren't tangible, and because of this despite the rewards often being collectible, able to be traded and shown off, their very existence is dependent on a server that is also dependent on a company operating those servers. Because let's face it, the moment Nexon closes Mabinogi's servers down all of the pets and gacha-specific items that players have spent millions of real dollars on will be gone in an instant. Tangible goods, while more than capable of being destroyed for one reason or another (disaster, theft, poor build quality, etc.), tangible goods are at the very least items that can be cherished, maintained for years, and even displayed in a museum and potentially becoming a part of our history. Digital goods don't have this property, and are directly dependent on servers and a company maintaining those servers for those digital goods to continue to exist. At least, that is how I see it.

    As for gambling in and of itself, there are serious concerns related to lootboxes and similar lootbox-based systems, and a recent study that came out just a couple of days ago confirmed this, the end result from the study alone being one of two scenarios; either lootboxes allow for the potential for problem gambling to develop among players who are exposed to them, or lootboxes allow for the exploitation of players who already deal with problem gambling. Either scenario is enough to raise some red flags in regards to lootboxes. And while it's easy to suggest that it's "not anyone's fault" if someone becomes a problem gambler, at the same time it can be argued that there is a responsibility in ensuring that people who have problems gambling receive help or are at the very least not exploited.

    In regards to receiving nothing or receiving something, strictly speaking either or can be treated as a fail state; either you receive nothing for your money spent, or you receive something you didn't want for your money spent. Either way, the draw is to continue spending, either to receive something for your money spent, or to receive the item you wanted for your money spent. Either scenario has a similar fail state and a similar outcome; draw consumers to spend more money on the same product. Not to mention that following the "lootboxes are gambling" scenario, the company managing those lootboxes can be seen as the "house". And as the saying goes, "The house always wins". In other words, just like the house of a casino would control the odds of winning at their tables, a company implementing lootboxes controls the odds of winning at their lootboxes; in this instance, receiving a rare item. And not only that, but a company implementing lootboxes also controls other aspects of the game they manage, and it's all too easy for a company to control rates in such a way that players are actively encouraged to spend money in order to progress more easily. EA's Star Wars: Battlefront II is both an extremely good example of what happens when implementing lootboxes can also result in the game itself being turned into one giant grindfest with the obvious incentive being to spend money to open lootboxes to actually progress. Or I guess you could say to feel that sense of pride and accomplishment.

    As for gachapon not being lootboxes, they are exactly the same as the premise is exactly the same; a box-like virtual object containing a set of items often containing what is deemed a set of rare items that must be purchased with real money in order to be opened. They are the same, just not in name.

    I will at least say this, however; Nexon has every right to have microtransactions in their games. Their games are free-to-play, after all; they need to make their money somewhere. It is simply that there are concerns in respect to lootboxes and there is enough evidence to suggest that these concerns are legitimate, and that depending on how the lootbox controversy goes Nexon and other companies may need to review how they handle microtransactions. And in respect to that you know how often players have begged for Nexon to sell their gachapons as direct purchases rather than locking them behind an RNG paywall, even if it cost more.
    BronzebreakTHICCthighssavelivesSherriLastSaturdayDarkpixie99
  • SplatulatedSplatulated
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    Also, in actual gambling, you have a chance of getting nothing in exchange for the money you drop in. With Gacha, you always get something. It may be ****, but its something.

    But thats exactly how loot crates work... But look at how law's are being changed due to EA's use of them
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    GrayStar wrote: »
    with the way loot boxes are being classified as gambling and all the restrictions that come with, what are you going t odo

    I see loot boxes and gachapon as gambling, but I'm OK with anyone of any age gambling without restriction.
  • OrkaneOrkane
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    edited October 29, 2018
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    Nothing because Gacha is not the same as loot boxes and the only people to blame is yourself if you buy gacha and you dont get something, that's not nexon's fault because you are not being promised something good. ALso doing Gacha is not gambling, if you are at the point were you can't control yourself, that's not nexon's fault.

    I mean you can say all trading cards/blind bags are gambling and no one is whining over them.

    A few things wrong with this post:

    1. Gachapons and loot boxes are the same in everything but name alone.
    2. In the most literal sense possible, gachapon is indeed gambling:
    mbk4hAt.png
    3. Plenty of people are indeed "whining" over this

    4. The fact that people can choose not to make a purchase does not mean that providing that choice isn't potentially harmful, nor that nothing should be done about people taking that choice to their own detriment; hence why gambling laws, alcohol consumption laws, drug restrictions etc. exist.

    All this isn't to say that Nexon must or will stop using gachapons, but it's recently become an issue that's hard to ignore. I believe the OP was trying to address this, but didn't do so very clearly.
    SheenaGrayStarSherriDarkpixie99
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    Just buy it with in game gold.
    No gambling required.
    No lawsuits.
  • GrayStarGrayStar
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    edited October 4, 2018
    buying stuff directly vs using a gatcha with more than 50%chance of getting
    heck ea's newest loot boxes in fifa have a less than 1%chance to get the best items(note they think saying less than 1%=discloseing the odds when that could mean as low as 0.0000000001%or lowere), kinda like the black bag or drawstring bag in tibby's jars
    also digital loot boxes never have a garanteed number of a specific reward it is technically possible for NO ONE to get the reward everyone wanted

    and hey maybe if the loot boxes go away they might consider updateing the engine truley renewing it like they did to maplestory with maplestory2(although i will admit it looks like a whole diferent game now)
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited October 28, 2018
    Here we are, arguing about 10 years of Nexon getting away with gachapons and adding so much junk into them that the rewards get buried into .01/100 chance. (Real ones are about 6-15 items maximum.)
    Yet no one seems to point out how Nexon KR has already been sued for rigging the rates as well.
    Anyone smart would just leave the company alone, and not even let their wallet touch it with a 30 foot pole.
    Boycotts happen for reasons, so let them watch themselves shrivel up financially for ignoring the player base all these years.
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
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    Here we are, arguing about 10 years of Nexon getting away with gachapons and adding so much junk into them that the rewards get buried into .01/100 chance. (Real ones are about 6-15 items maximum.)
    Yet no one seems to point out how Nexon KR has already been sued for rigging the rates as well.
    Anyone smart would just leave the company alone, and not even let their wallet touch it with a 30 foot pole.
    Boycotts happen for reasons, so let them watch themselves shrivel up financially for ignoring the player base all these years.

    To my understanding based off of the last time this was posted, they were sued for misrepresentation.

    Loot boxes are a part of the current F2P market because subscriptions and ads have become outdated; it's generally gacha and hard currency nowadays.





    According to the industry professionals I'm a student of.
    Veylaine
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Industry professionals although they may have expertise in such info, may not always have the expertise of other fields related to the industry.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Gachapon are probably what is allowing you to log into this game. The game MUST pay expenses and make an expected rate of return. Now, of course, Nexon COULD calculate the average number of tries it takes to get some desired item and charge the price of the gacha times that number, and therefore still make their expected rate of return. But what if, say, those pair of wings guaranteed had to be $100 USD, would you bother? Maybe a few folks would but most probably would not. They could sell both: guaranteed item and the gachapon, but that would be a dead giveaway of the odds, and my guess is, with Nexon's marketing department and possibly legal department too, that won't do. At the end of the day, if you have a job then this game really isn't all that expensive compared to other vices you may choose to indulge in. If you don't have a job, or life's expenses prohibit you, well then sucks to be you.
    Bronzebreak
  • JazmynJazmyn
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    edited October 29, 2018
    I cant say for sure, but I highly doubt subscriptions are outdated. Look at Adobe, Microsoft Office, Intuit, and many other programs that have switched over to subscription only.... the reason Nexon goes with gacha is because they make more. Its purly greed, not necessity. If it was necessity, they could just increase prices of other things. Even the items they put in the gachas signify greed.... as someone else mentioned in a different post, eluned outfits could be avoided by just making items unisex... but why would they do that when its another "new" tag they can add to a new gacha... .. its kind of sad so many people have been fooled by people saying it is a necessary evil when there are plenty of options out there.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Subscription would not work for Mabinogi, in fact it would probably destroy it, since it has now been established as a free to play. Adobe, Microsoft Office and Intuit are all software used by businesses to make money so the subscriptions for them are a business expense. While it is true that some people do make money playing Mabinogi, they are breaking the law to do so, and so almost all the rest do do not. Had Mabinogi been originally launched as subscription based it might've eventually flown as such but it was not. Probably this was done because few, at the time, had even heard of Nexon and with yet another online swords and sorcery game coming along about the only carrot Nexon could offer was that it was free to play. Whereas an online game could switch from subscription to free to play, you can't do the reverse. There are formidable market and legal issues involved. Right now almost all the "have to pay" complaints are over Gachapons, but folks who buy them are only part of the folks who have given money to Nexon, and folks who have given money to Nexon are only part of the player base. But if you switch over to subscription, then EVERYONE MUST pay money to Nexon regularly; that won't fly. With all the "server merge" or "is Mabinogi Dying" threads on the forums, reducing the player base to those who would be willing to pay a fee every month would dramatically reduce the size of the player base and that would kill the game.
  • JazmynJazmyn
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    edited October 30, 2018
    I didn't say required subscription. VIP is a subscription, and if they updated it, more people would pay for it.

    Put out more shopping bags like many are asking for, make them random colors, then there's still some trade value.

    Update NPC shops by adding new outfits to them instead of gacha, give a discount of gold purchase in game with VIP, make them expensive otherwise.

    Have gacha like eweca orb only; maybe add a consumable type gacha with trade unlocks and enchant protection potions and x2 potions, a dungeon/shadow/theater mission type gacha with passes, crystals, combat exp type things, a wing only gacha, a pose item only gacha but make them available all the time at a lower cost and just tease the option, not say "if you dont you'll miss out forever".

    There are options, they just choose to turn a blind eye and throw out limited only gambles due to it's addictive nature.

    EDIT: And obviously I'm not saying gacha in itself is a bad thing, but when EVERYTHING is gacha, that's where the problem is.
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
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    Jazmyn wrote: »
    I didn't say required subscription. VIP is a subscription, and if they updated it, more people would pay for it.

    Put out more shopping bags like many are asking for, make them random colors, then there's still some trade value.

    Update NPC shops by adding new outfits to them instead of gacha, give a discount of gold purchase in game with VIP, make them expensive otherwise.

    Have gacha like eweca orb only; maybe add a consumable type gacha with trade unlocks and enchant protection potions and x2 potions, a dungeon/shadow/theater mission type gacha with passes, crystals, combat exp type things, a wing only gacha, a pose item only gacha but make them available all the time at a lower cost and just tease the option, not say "if you dont you'll miss out forever".

    There are options, they just choose to turn a blind eye and throw out limited only gambles due to it's addictive nature.

    EDIT: And obviously I'm not saying gacha in itself is a bad thing, but when EVERYTHING is gacha, that's where the problem is.

    Sorry, I may not have been clear; Subscription-to-Play is outdated.
    MS Office isn't Sub-to-Use since they have their 'Online' (free-to-use-with-less-functionality) versions.

    It is only still successful for a few games, but as Helsa has pointed out, corporate businesses/services (IE, not entertainment) are quite successful with them because it allows them to extend the lifespan and support of each of their products. That being said, they are also releasing new versions, and eventually axing the old ones.