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Ever had this experience?

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  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »

    Actually according to a thread somewhere around here and confirmation in the discord (multiple times), they mean to severely hamper or limit it. (Something about the after the 6th hit makes it useless). I guess they want to encourage other forms of combat within the game instead of just final hitting everything. I get it, but...a lot of us are just comfortable with our play styles and not to mention the gear we are heavily invested into (with irl CASH).

    This is definitely not FUD, this is something that we as community need to voice our opinions and concerns about before we get that patch. There was already an uproar over in KR concerning this matter, and there will be an uproar over here. But maybe we can change that BEFORE it happens to US.

    We have a significantly smaller community than KR has, we are also very DIFFERENT from KR. Something like this could be the nail in the coffin. This definitely needs to be considered carefully by our NA staff who also love Mabinogi irl.

    Isn't Final Hit already limited enough? It's not like you can constantly use it all the time. Making it useless after the sixth hit would just make it useless at all. Why even have it then? Did they actually implement it in KR?
  • AlalaroseAlalarose
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,955
    Posts: 185
    Member
    Isn't Final Hit already limited enough? It's not like you can constantly use it all the time. Making it useless after the sixth hit would just make it useless at all. Why even have it then? Did they actually implement it in KR?

    From what i read they did, and it was really rough on the human characters over there since a lot of them relied on it
    WolfandWolf
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    Alalarose wrote: »
    Isn't Final Hit already limited enough? It's not like you can constantly use it all the time. Making it useless after the sixth hit would just make it useless at all. Why even have it then? Did they actually implement it in KR?

    From what i read they did, and it was really rough on the human characters over there since a lot of them relied on it

    Was this recent? How long ago? If you happen to know. Ah, and thank you. I really appreciate this info.
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,165
    Posts: 146
    Member, Volunteer Forum Moderator
    Here are the changes to FH to my knowledge. For starters they are nerfing failed berserk music to only last a few short seconds on mobs, this means that 2h erg FH that relied on the failed music no longer works. This was heavily used in things like Alban and Phantasm to AOE mobs with FH.

    The next change causes all weapons to have a contribution to the knockdown gauge while in FH. From what I've seen this means that dual wielded swords will only get 6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is very a much a nerf as currently you can an infinite amount of hits on enemies with dual wielded swords. Secondly, 2h swords can (with stacking some other buffs) get up to 5-6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is actually a quasi-buff. It's better than no failed berserk music but not as good as failed berserk music. Overall some players will see this as a benefit as they can now final hit with a fanatic/divine sword without having to first fail music.

    With this update giants also got a skill called "Final Strike" which is essentially human FH that breaks through passive defenses and also gains speed as it goes on. Anyway, humans are the weakest race in the game at the moment and have nothing going for them. They are basically 3x weaker in archer than elves and have nothing in their kit that isn't completely beaten by giants. The only high hitting DPS strats as a human are lance charge spam and SS->impale which are done better by giants and elves respectively. Humans have been reduced to brionac slaves where if you are trying to speed clear any content bring one for brio and stack something else.
    THICCthighssavelives
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    JoeyDee9 wrote: »

    The next change causes all weapons to have a contribution to the knockdown gauge while in FH. From what I've seen this means that dual wielded swords will only get 6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is very a much a nerf as currently you can an infinite amount of hits on enemies with dual wielded swords. Secondly, 2h swords can (with stacking some other buffs) get up to 5-6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is actually a quasi-buff. It's better than no failed berserk music but not as good as failed berserk music. Overall some players will see this as a benefit as they can now final hit with a fanatic/divine sword without having to first fail music.

    .

    Ah, if you don't mind, I'm a little confused. After dual wielding swords and hitting a mob 6 times, that mob goes down (knockdown). Can you then move onto a new mob (if available)? Can you then move back to that mob after their brief, knock down induced invulnerability?

  • noobodyzxznoobodyzxz
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,000
    Posts: 268
    Member
    JoeyDee9 wrote: »

    The next change causes all weapons to have a contribution to the knockdown gauge while in FH. From what I've seen this means that dual wielded swords will only get 6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is very a much a nerf as currently you can an infinite amount of hits on enemies with dual wielded swords. Secondly, 2h swords can (with stacking some other buffs) get up to 5-6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is actually a quasi-buff. It's better than no failed berserk music but not as good as failed berserk music. Overall some players will see this as a benefit as they can now final hit with a fanatic/divine sword without having to first fail music.

    .

    Ah, if you don't mind, I'm a little confused. After dual wielding swords and hitting a mob 6 times, that mob goes down (knockdown). Can you then move onto a new mob (if available)? Can you then move back to that mob after their brief, knock down induced invulnerability?

    I logged in to ask the same thing
    also gonna include if enemies immune to knockdown get knocked down
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,050
    Posts: 661
    Member
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    JoeyDee9 wrote: »

    The next change causes all weapons to have a contribution to the knockdown gauge while in FH. From what I've seen this means that dual wielded swords will only get 6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is very a much a nerf as currently you can an infinite amount of hits on enemies with dual wielded swords. Secondly, 2h swords can (with stacking some other buffs) get up to 5-6 hits before an enemy gets knocked down. This is actually a quasi-buff. It's better than no failed berserk music but not as good as failed berserk music. Overall some players will see this as a benefit as they can now final hit with a fanatic/divine sword without having to first fail music.

    .

    Ah, if you don't mind, I'm a little confused. After dual wielding swords and hitting a mob 6 times, that mob goes down (knockdown). Can you then move onto a new mob (if available)? Can you then move back to that mob after their brief, knock down induced invulnerability?

    I logged in to ask the same thing
    also gonna include if enemies immune to knockdown get knocked down

    I think it means that every hit will add to the knock down gauge. So if the enemy is fresh it will take 6 hits to knock them down with FH and take less subsequent hits to knock them down again. And no, that change will not affect how FH plays against AHS mobs. It's pretty much like how you can use FH with a 2h sword on any AHS mob now. It will stack the knockdown gauge, but it won't knock them down.
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,805
    Posts: 1,036
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    KingEphy wrote: »
    Gaea wrote: »
    Stop hitting on final hit. I'm sorry that player was being an asshat to you.

    There other skills out there that can clear rooms in seconds. Because of people who complain about final hit too much they are going to eventually nerf it here. That will be the day I stop playing and Mabinogi becomes an over-glorified chat engine. Thanks devcat, you ruined my play style of switching from final hit to way of the guns.

    NA this is one update I actually do NOT want. You will lose even more players.

    ...eh? They don't actually intend to nerf FH...right?

    Actually according to a thread somewhere around here and confirmation in the discord (multiple times), they mean to severely hamper or limit it. (Something about the after the 6th hit makes it useless). I guess they want to encourage other forms of combat within the game instead of just final hitting everything. I get it, but...a lot of us are just comfortable with our play styles and not to mention the gear we are heavily invested into (with irl CASH).

    This is definitely not FUD, this is something that we as community need to voice our opinions and concerns about before we get that patch. There was already an uproar over in KR concerning this matter, and there will be an uproar over here. But maybe we can change that BEFORE it happens to US.

    We have a significantly smaller community than KR has, we are also very DIFFERENT from KR. Something like this could be the nail in the coffin. This definitely needs to be considered carefully by our NA staff who also love Mabinogi irl.

    Korean MMO's are failing over here. There is a multitude of reasons why, mostly financial. They need to understand that the western world is not going to receive things as well as they do out there. We are much more conservative, we play and spend much differently on games here. I think KR companies are starting to realize that and that's why their games fail here and they also don't want to conduct as much business out here as they use to.

    In fact I am really worried about the campfire event that we're supposed to have. I'm worried that not enough of us are going to attend to impress them. It's basically a irl attendance event to gauge the popularity of the game.

    :(

    I just wanna clear the air with this.

    Final hit IS NOT AT ALL getting nerfed. For anyone who doesn't know what I mean when I say "weakness" in regards to final hit it's actually getting buffed. The nerf to final hit is a bug fix. The 6 hits thing is after 6 hits with a 2 handed weapon the enemy will be knocked back/away/down and then you can instantly just stun lock them again. The whole final hit thing is FUD because for 99% of players in NA it's a direct, hard buff. One of the kr devs said they know some people will be unhappy with this change to giants, and they're working on bringing more balance to the game.

    I won't disagree with the campfire thing though.

    Final hit isn't getting nerfed. The 6 hits is for 2h knockdown (Right now it happens EVERY hit). Dual wield isn't being changed.
    CrimsWolfandWolfChaosShadow
  • CrimsCrims
    Mabinogi Rep: 43,385
    Posts: 6,548
    Member
    Alright well that's cool. I guess.

    I really do hope a lot of people show up for the campfire event. It's going to be embarrassing if they don't and will look horrible for the game. I mean it's easier for KR to have a mabinogi conference because their fans are closer together, our country is way bigger and therefore our fan base is more scattered across this continent. Not a lot of people are gonna fly over for some free food, a few memorabilia trinkets, and some questions. heh.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 28,395
    Posts: 6,231
    Member
    edited November 15, 2018
    Gaea wrote: »
    Alright well that's cool. I guess.

    I really do hope a lot of people show up for the campfire event. It's going to be embarrassing if they don't and will look horrible for the game. I mean it's easier for KR to have a mabinogi conference because their fans are closer together, our country is way bigger and therefore our fan base is more scattered across this continent. Not a lot of people are gonna fly over for some free food, a few memorabilia trinkets, and some questions. heh.

    As long as there is some diligence into finding balance, it will be ok. But the longer it takes, discontent will grow faster.

    As for campfire, the difference will be how many non-forum speakers decide to go.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,725
    Posts: 1,950
    Member
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.
  • CrimsCrims
    Mabinogi Rep: 43,385
    Posts: 6,548
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    Giants are already op and now they are going to give them Final Strike. Giants master race.

    @Helsa you think it's bad now? Our future is going to be this; final strike + newbie giant + tutorial update. XD
  • noobodyzxznoobodyzxz
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,000
    Posts: 268
    Member
    edited November 15, 2018
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    what they meant with balancing races is giving each races a unique advantage over the other
    there is a big difference between equal and balance
    equal is having both or multiple sides to be the same
    balanced is having both or multiple sides to be not necessarily the same
    but each will counter act or counterweight one another
    if one race is basically inferior to others then it is the players responsibility to adapt and overcome those inferiorities
    mabinogi offers alot of customization and freewill to its players that other mmorpgs dont
    from looks, skills, talent/classes, battle style, stats, etc
    there is always a different approach to everything
    and basically there are many ways to experiment in game on how to overcome those inferiorities
    if stats of other races are better there are alot of stat modifiers in game
    from enchants and reforges to totems and hs items

    even if mabinogi had only one race and each player is capable of obtaining everything in game
    that attitude will basically remain and u will always end up complaining on how others are better than u

    take it this way people that try to drag others down have a hard time improving themselves
    because they are busy envying how others are better than themselves that they forgot to make themselves better
    people that look ahead of themselves towards a goal have all the time and eagerness to improve themselves
    cause they have all their focus on themselves in improving and overcoming their on weaknesses

    used to be like u in real life (sort of or maybe worst)
    so im telling u this cause ive been there and not to insult u or bullying u or to make u angry
    im basically telling u to look at it in a different point of u even if its just in game
    complaining on the advantage of others wont get u anywhere
    u may be able to drag them down and cause them to be at a disadvantage
    but u will still end up where u were and each time u are faced on same situation
    u will blame it on others and how they are better
    and the cycle of envy goes on
    Bronzebreak
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 40,435
    Posts: 5,738
    Member
    edited November 15, 2018
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    what they meant with balancing races is giving each races a unique advantage over the other
    there is a big difference between equal and balance
    equal is having both or multiple sides to be the same
    balanced is having both or multiple sides to be not necessarily the same
    but each will counter act or counterweight one another
    if one race is basically inferior to others then it is the players responsibility to adapt and overcome those inferiorities
    mabinogi offers alot of customization and freewill to its players that other mmorpgs dont
    from looks, skills, talent/classes, battle style, stats, etc
    there is always a different approach to everything
    and basically there are many ways to experiment in game on how to overcome those inferiorities
    if stats of other races are better there are alot of stat modifiers in game
    from enchants and reforges to totems and hs items

    even if mabinogi had only one race and each player is capable of obtaining everything in game
    that attitude will basically remain and u will always end up complaining on how others are better than u

    take it this way people that try to drag others down have a hard time improving themselves
    because they are busy envying how others are better than themselves that they forgot to make themselves better
    people that look ahead of themselves towards a goal have all the time and eagerness to improve themselves
    cause they have all their focus on themselves in improving and overcoming their on weaknesses

    used to be like u in real life (sort of or maybe worst)
    so im telling u this cause ive been there and not to insult u or bullying u or to make u angry
    im basically telling u to look at it in a different point of u even if its just in game
    complaining on the advantage of others wont get u anywhere
    u may be able to drag them down and cause them to be at a disadvantage
    but u will still end up where u were and each time u are faced on same situation
    u will blame it on others and how they are better
    and the cycle of envy goes on

    Why are you always typing like this? Are you trying to make a poem or something? Or it's because you are not good with punctuation? It's kind of annoying to read stuff like this. Just being honest and curious here.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 28,395
    Posts: 6,231
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    what they meant with balancing races is giving each races a unique advantage over the other
    there is a big difference between equal and balance
    equal is having both or multiple sides to be the same
    balanced is having both or multiple sides to be not necessarily the same
    but each will counter act or counterweight one another
    if one race is basically inferior to others then it is the players responsibility to adapt and overcome those inferiorities
    mabinogi offers alot of customization and freewill to its players that other mmorpgs dont
    from looks, skills, talent/classes, battle style, stats, etc
    there is always a different approach to everything
    and basically there are many ways to experiment in game on how to overcome those inferiorities
    if stats of other races are better there are alot of stat modifiers in game
    from enchants and reforges to totems and hs items

    even if mabinogi had only one race and each player is capable of obtaining everything in game
    that attitude will basically remain and u will always end up complaining on how others are better than u

    take it this way people that try to drag others down have a hard time improving themselves
    because they are busy envying how others are better than themselves that they forgot to make themselves better
    people that look ahead of themselves towards a goal have all the time and eagerness to improve themselves
    cause they have all their focus on themselves in improving and overcoming their on weaknesses

    used to be like u in real life (sort of or maybe worst)
    so im telling u this cause ive been there and not to insult u or bullying u or to make u angry
    im basically telling u to look at it in a different point of u even if its just in game
    complaining on the advantage of others wont get u anywhere
    u may be able to drag them down and cause them to be at a disadvantage
    but u will still end up where u were and each time u are faced on same situation
    u will blame it on others and how they are better
    and the cycle of envy goes on

    Why are you always typing like this? Are you trying to make a poem or something? Or it's because you are not good with punctuation? It's kind of annoying to read stuff like this. Just being honest and curious here.

    Maybe using a phone?
  • noobodyzxznoobodyzxz
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,000
    Posts: 268
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    what they meant with balancing races is giving each races a unique advantage over the other
    there is a big difference between equal and balance
    equal is having both or multiple sides to be the same
    balanced is having both or multiple sides to be not necessarily the same
    but each will counter act or counterweight one another
    if one race is basically inferior to others then it is the players responsibility to adapt and overcome those inferiorities
    mabinogi offers alot of customization and freewill to its players that other mmorpgs dont
    from looks, skills, talent/classes, battle style, stats, etc
    there is always a different approach to everything
    and basically there are many ways to experiment in game on how to overcome those inferiorities
    if stats of other races are better there are alot of stat modifiers in game
    from enchants and reforges to totems and hs items

    even if mabinogi had only one race and each player is capable of obtaining everything in game
    that attitude will basically remain and u will always end up complaining on how others are better than u

    take it this way people that try to drag others down have a hard time improving themselves
    because they are busy envying how others are better than themselves that they forgot to make themselves better
    people that look ahead of themselves towards a goal have all the time and eagerness to improve themselves
    cause they have all their focus on themselves in improving and overcoming their on weaknesses

    used to be like u in real life (sort of or maybe worst)
    so im telling u this cause ive been there and not to insult u or bullying u or to make u angry
    im basically telling u to look at it in a different point of u even if its just in game
    complaining on the advantage of others wont get u anywhere
    u may be able to drag them down and cause them to be at a disadvantage
    but u will still end up where u were and each time u are faced on same situation
    u will blame it on others and how they are better
    and the cycle of envy goes on

    Why are you always typing like this? Are you trying to make a poem or something? Or it's because you are not good with punctuation? It's kind of annoying to read stuff like this. Just being honest and curious here.

    Maybe using a phone?

    a habit that i end up having after studying and doing computer programming for years.
    i find it easier to type and read when things are compacted and sentences / lines are separated.
    im still trying to correct it at some point and ur not the first one to mention that.
    Im still programming every once in a while so its harder to avoid this habit.
    my programming teachers back in college also had this kind of habit.
    tho maybe not everyone that does programming have it.
    and i think im bad with punctuation cause those symbols have different uses in some programming languages
    KensamaofmariAlexisEUXiokun
  • AlalaroseAlalarose
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,955
    Posts: 185
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    Alright well that's cool. I guess.

    I really do hope a lot of people show up for the campfire event. It's going to be embarrassing if they don't and will look horrible for the game. I mean it's easier for KR to have a mabinogi conference because their fans are closer together, our country is way bigger and therefore our fan base is more scattered across this continent. Not a lot of people are gonna fly over for some free food, a few memorabilia trinkets, and some questions. heh.

    Not everyone who plays can attend it either, there is no physical way i can get on a plane to attend the event. Eu doesnt have its own server so we have to play na, which means irl events dont work for at least a solid chunk of the player base
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,725
    Posts: 1,950
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.

    what they meant with balancing races is giving each races a unique advantage over the other
    there is a big difference between equal and balance
    equal is having both or multiple sides to be the same
    balanced is having both or multiple sides to be not necessarily the same
    but each will counter act or counterweight one another
    if one race is basically inferior to others then it is the players responsibility to adapt and overcome those inferiorities
    mabinogi offers alot of customization and freewill to its players that other mmorpgs dont
    from looks, skills, talent/classes, battle style, stats, etc
    there is always a different approach to everything
    and basically there are many ways to experiment in game on how to overcome those inferiorities
    if stats of other races are better there are alot of stat modifiers in game
    from enchants and reforges to totems and hs items

    Sure while you are building up your character and facing others who are building up, it depends where both are on that journey in determining who is better at the time. But there is an ultimate capability for all races, which is what these kinds of discussions are about. At their ultimate capabilities some race WILL be best at PvP, whichever it happens to be, the same will be for PvE, and for Group vs Group. This kind of situation is comparable to what you were saying about different races complementing or counteracting each other. But at the end of the day, if say you play Mab for PvP and you have the handicapped race and you are fully developed facing fully developed opponents of the advantaged race, you're not gonna be happy more times than not. So there two ways to deal with this:
    1) Allow people to perform race change at rebirth, or
    2) Make all the races the same except for cosmetic differences,
    noobodyzxz wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Balancing the Races is impossible if they are different. There will always be some race that is better at PvP, there will always be one that is better at PvE, there will always be one that is better at group versus group. For true equality they will have to have the same skills and stats. Failing that, allowing free race change at rebirth would more or less do away with any non-balance complaints provided every race is best at something players value.
    even if mabinogi had only one race and each player is capable of obtaining everything in game
    that attitude will basically remain and u will always end up complaining on how others are better than u

    take it this way people that try to drag others down have a hard time improving themselves
    because they are busy envying how others are better than themselves that they forgot to make themselves better
    people that look ahead of themselves towards a goal have all the time and eagerness to improve themselves
    cause they have all their focus on themselves in improving and overcoming their on weaknesses

    used to be like u in real life (sort of or maybe worst)
    so im telling u this cause ive been there and not to insult u or bullying u or to make u angry
    im basically telling u to look at it in a different point of u even if its just in game
    complaining on the advantage of others wont get u anywhere
    u may be able to drag them down and cause them to be at a disadvantage
    but u will still end up where u were and each time u are faced on same situation
    u will blame it on others and how they are better
    and the cycle of envy goes on

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It seems to me you're making some big assumptions about my personal character and intentions. If you're accusing me of being a troll or a crybaby or vindictive then you're way off the mark.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,725
    Posts: 1,950
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    Alshian wrote: »
    Or avoid playing with dumb players who like to talk down to you.
    Yep, they get their one single moment to shine and then I'm done with them. Once they've made it perfectly clear what they're all about I make the best of the situation and just stay behind picking up gold. Pretty soon, they're a few rooms ahead of me and they're showing off to empty rooms. Well, at least until I catch up and have to revive them.

  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,145
    Posts: 338
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    Being one of the countably small handful of outliers doesn't change the stereotype though: final hit will always be a wet brown stain on party-play

    Still, I think making fun of someone's repeated deaths while there's still the opportinity to do so is a much better wakeup call. Staying silent to "look nice" leads to the madness of make-believe honor systems