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This is why the saga had great writing.

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  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,855
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    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    And that's how you create a melodramatic saga.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,785
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    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    I just hated the puzzles. I had this nagging fear that I wasn't going to progress because of those damn puzzles. Hell g19 was easier and that's saying something.
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,855
    Posts: 7,533
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    Gaea wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    I just hated the puzzles. I had this nagging fear that I wasn't going to progress because of those damn puzzles. Hell g19 was easier and that's saying something.

    You know what I really hate? Pre-saga generation Shamala. I'm still stuck on that one mission where you RP the Great Lion.
    Leinei
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,110
    Posts: 661
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    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    I'd like to bring up that Eirawen had a very similar start as well. Her father was said to have been killed by a Millitian (which is true) and is initially mistrustful of the Millitian as a result. Both have valid reasons for not trusting or even liking the Millitian. The difference here is that Eirawen actually got a character arc. Her character evolved through out the story gaining humility and wisdom through her experience. Millia never evolved, or changed. She just got progressively angrier and angrier. By comparison Eirawen was actually a lot more bratty, being an actual princess and was waited on by several servants when we first encounter her. Unless they bring her back for a future generation, Millia's story doesn't have an ending, it just stops. I would have been fine with Millia keeping her mistrust of the Millitian, but at the end, she was just regulated to plot Mcguffin #3. Mostly there to milk more angst out of Ruairi and then drop off the radar once her purpose was done.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,855
    Posts: 7,533
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    I'd like to bring up that Eirawen had a very similar start as well. Her father was said to have been killed by a Millitian (which is true) and is initially mistrustful of the Millitian as a result. Both have valid reasons for not trusting or even liking the Millitian. The difference here is that Eirawen actually got a character arc. Her character evolved through out the story gaining humility and wisdom through her experience. Millia never evolved, or changed. She just got progressively angrier and angrier. By comparison Eirawen was actually a lot more bratty, being an actual princess and was waited on by several servants when we first encounter her. Unless they bring her back for a future generation, Millia's story doesn't have an ending, it just stops. I would have been fine with Millia keeping her mistrust of the Millitian, but at the end, she was just regulated to plot Mcguffin #3. Mostly there to milk more angst out of Ruairi and then drop off the radar once her purpose was done.

    But Eirawen's father was thrown off the cliff of Rath Castle by Lugh so they say.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,785
    Posts: 7,482
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    I just hated the puzzles. I had this nagging fear that I wasn't going to progress because of those damn puzzles. Hell g19 was easier and that's saying something.

    You know what I really hate? Pre-saga generation Shamala. I'm still stuck on that one mission where you RP the Great Lion.

    Wiki says it is recommended to use Smack over shamala and learn counter attack.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,110
    Posts: 661
    Member
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    I'd like to bring up that Eirawen had a very similar start as well. Her father was said to have been killed by a Millitian (which is true) and is initially mistrustful of the Millitian as a result. Both have valid reasons for not trusting or even liking the Millitian. The difference here is that Eirawen actually got a character arc. Her character evolved through out the story gaining humility and wisdom through her experience. Millia never evolved, or changed. She just got progressively angrier and angrier. By comparison Eirawen was actually a lot more bratty, being an actual princess and was waited on by several servants when we first encounter her. Unless they bring her back for a future generation, Millia's story doesn't have an ending, it just stops. I would have been fine with Millia keeping her mistrust of the Millitian, but at the end, she was just regulated to plot Mcguffin #3. Mostly there to milk more angst out of Ruairi and then drop off the radar once her purpose was done.

    But Eirawen's father was thrown off the cliff of Rath Castle by Lugh so they say.

    Actually Shakespeare was the one to kill the king. He was put under an illusion where he thought he was attacking Morrighan and pushed the king off. So no, a Millitian was the actual killer.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,855
    Posts: 7,533
    Member
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    I'd like to bring up that Eirawen had a very similar start as well. Her father was said to have been killed by a Millitian (which is true) and is initially mistrustful of the Millitian as a result. Both have valid reasons for not trusting or even liking the Millitian. The difference here is that Eirawen actually got a character arc. Her character evolved through out the story gaining humility and wisdom through her experience. Millia never evolved, or changed. She just got progressively angrier and angrier. By comparison Eirawen was actually a lot more bratty, being an actual princess and was waited on by several servants when we first encounter her. Unless they bring her back for a future generation, Millia's story doesn't have an ending, it just stops. I would have been fine with Millia keeping her mistrust of the Millitian, but at the end, she was just regulated to plot Mcguffin #3. Mostly there to milk more angst out of Ruairi and then drop off the radar once her purpose was done.

    But Eirawen's father was thrown off the cliff of Rath Castle by Lugh so they say.

    Actually Shakespeare was the one to kill the king. He was put under an illusion where he thought he was attacking Morrighan and pushed the king off. So no, a Millitian was the actual killer.

    Oh hey, he has his own page now on the wiki that explains it all.
  • XafnirXafnir
    Mabinogi Rep: 720
    Posts: 18
    Member
    Aigis wrote: »
    (And also why your opinion is dumb! )

    In some ways it could have been done better, lets get that clear, but a majority of people over the years I have seen complain and whine about the saga being le bad have no understanding of the characters in it, nor their place in the story. I'm about to lay it down for you, and why you're wrong if you think it is bad. You can dislike it, but the ending was fitting for a saga you had no business intervening in.

    Point A of criticism: Why are Tarlach and Ruairi so edgy and evil just for the sake of it? Why are they suddenly the token bad guy?

    Refutition: The reason Ruairi and Tarlach are like that are because the story was about them. They lost everything, EVERYTHING, and suffered both isolation and repetitive death of those they cared about. Especially Ruairi, he had no choice. He was SOLD to a dragon to be a martyr for the power of his greedy father. He had no choice, he had no say, he was.. property. The more the milletian got involved the more it spun the gods into their misfortune, from morrighan to cichol, things that had NO business screwing with them kept doing so as if in pure spite that they had not been broken enough.

    Ruairi: He had everything stolen from him, his loved ones suffered just because things outside of his control kept getting in the way. He found his answers in Iria, and he went to see his friend and show him the clues needed to give them the revenge he sought. Of course, after all of his suffering, he would be angry at all of his loss. He was never the bad guy, but he was never allowed to be the hero, either. Ruairi died as he lived, but in the end he obtained the control he had robbed from him his entire life. He suffered for what, for that? For a bond that only existed in symbolism, that was a shadow of what he had before? At least, in the end, even if it stole his humanity, he would do anything to interfere with the gods who wronged him, and to save his last and only friend, even if it was ONLY in the symbolism that existed in his broken heart.

    Tarlach: Tarlach agreed with him, they wanted to break the shackles that bound them, placed by the gods. Tarlach had enough, as did Ruairi. It was time to act, it was time to deny the gods their meddling, their sadistic pleasures. It was time to take back their life, and their world. He even more than Ruairi was desperate for a solution, and once he found his answer it was no doubt that at any cost he would jump at the solution, even if it cost him his life.

    The Milletian: You were never a part of it. The story we saw was in no way or regard about us. We were not the heroes of the saga, we were the villains, and we lost. We absolutely were defeated at every turn, we were sealed, told to shut up, we were denied the power we were used to and it bothered people. We saw it all happen, we saw everything we could touch become rotten with the influence of the divine, and could do nothing to stop it. As in a way, we were their agent, we were to blame. This is echo'd by the haunting memories you see later on, after Ruairi sacrifices himself- the memories of all in the soul stream, the what if- "Am I a monster?". It was not our time to fight, we were to just shut up and watch as the souls and hearts of the two men hurt the most in the entirety of the world were to make their stand as they finished their story, and, it was their right to call the shots- not us.


    People hated that, they felt retconned, there was no such retcon, just a minor inconsistency here or there which were necessary to tell the story they wished to tell. The story was not bad, you were just not paying attention.

    The way these two lived was poetic, it was beautiful and tragic. And it absolutely impacted the milletian. They lost, they couldn't save anything. They had no control, they were defeated before they even started the fight. They could stop nothing, and they could save nobody. That was a story that needed to be told. That was a tale that began before the milletian first saw Erinn, before you nor I even picked up the game.It was a story that started over ten years ago even in our time, it was a story that we were not welcome in. The story of tragedy, of loss, of being robbed of their happiness. It was a saga, a saga of loss, of pain, of seeking answer, of revenge, and of compromise.

    It was their story, bois. Tarlach and Ruairi. It did not matter what our opinion was. They got their ending, they got their closure, to a degree. And they payed the ultimate price. Tarlach, his mind, his wisdom. The mind of a wizard he valued so much, was lost, returned to a child. At least he got a second chance at a normal life even if it was only symbolic. Ruairi- his control, his love, his family, his very humanity, and even his friends. He had nothing, he was never allowed to have anything, so he took it all back in a moment of the ultimate spite in order to, even if for only just a moment, take control of his life so he could end it on his own terms, in spite of everything. In spite of you, interloper.

    And Mari, Nao. She lost her life, she lost her family, she lost her friends, she lost her attachments, she lost her humanity, she lost nearly everything but her heart and soul. Her very life was stripped from her, the life she set out to live and reclaim. Now all she can do is sit from beyond and mourn for the sad fate of those she used to know as she does her duties. All of this was Cichol, and Morrighan's fault. It was their accursed fault, and they had to pay. They had to suffer what it was like to be shut out, to be told you are not a part of this. "We are not your toys, vermin."

    It was stated before in the saga that it was their reasonings. They. Are. Not. Toys. And you had no say, your opinion did not matter, you, an interloper, were in the way and it was their turn, the turn of the true stars of the story we inserted ourselves into, to act. And it was a VERY fitting end for that saga, a saga that again started before you nor I even realized it had begun, before we ever touched mabinogi.

    When a star is branded with iron in its heart, what choice does it have but to explode in a brilliant conclusion to its fiery fate?

    How fitting an end indeed. And for those who disagree, you likely do not understand the complexities of trying to write off of such a complicated and convoluted story- to interpret the minds of those who came before as you are handed the pen in turn.

    While I agree with GTC's big post i also disagree with GTC's big post (shut up, this makes perfect sense)
    I personally enjoyed Saga story and honestly if you ignore the bad dialog parts, dragon involvement and some character hiccups, the writing was brilliant and it takes quite some deep insight to see it.
    First off Aigis, let me correct you on a few points of the story:
    1) Tarlach did not become a child to have a chance at a new life, if you pay attention, the young Tarlach is not the actual Tarlach
    2) At the end of Saga 1, Tarlach with the power of the staff, finally understands what the gods were and the foundation of the world before he dies or at the very least sees some sort of revelation. Ruari doesn't see this so he continues the path.

    Now to correct GTC on a few points:
    1) The story does not have to be all about us (even if it WAS if you pay attention to G19-21 and even G22 in some points), we can play a character as it is viewed from a different perspective and that's not bad at all.
    2) Cichol is NOT dead as stated in G12 at the end AND G21
    3) Because of the end of G12, I have my doubts that Nuadha is still actually sealed too
    4) Morrighan only said she retires as she's tired of governing the mortals but in fact she meats up with Cichol AND Nuadha in Falias. Let's not forget Cichol already met up with Nuadha prior to G16 and we know Nuadha stole the power of the throne of Falias effectively making him something akin to a Mid Tier God, also remember that Morrighan and the Miletnian SEALED Nuadha in the Throne room BUT Cichol entered it and at the end of G16 Morrighan entered it too which (to my understanding) means that the throne room has been opened.
    5) You say that the control of the gods had already stopped by that time but it had not. There are 3 tiers of gods, from the only tier 1 being Aton Cimeni, to the 3rd tier ones being Cichol and the others. The 2nd tier gods still more or less guide the world in whatever direction they want. To a mortal, if a God "guides" the world in the direction of murder and destruction and they have the chance to mess them up then they WILL. All their actions are perfectly justified when confronting the gods.
    6) You say that our 3rd tier gods are ill equipped to handle the "otherworldly" intervention? I beg to differ as you can see how easily Cichol handles Brilluen with whom story wise we as the milletnian struggle. Our Gods are overwhelmingly powerful despite what anyone thinks. The fact that we beat a grieving Neamhain that was barely trying or a knock off awakening of Macha does not make any statement regarding their power. Also at the end of G16 we can see Morrighan meeting up with Cichol AND Nuadha, and Nuadha alone would be a force to be reckoned with let alone all 3 of them.

    Ruari jumped to conclusions but he was grieving, he also lost Tarlach and he wanted to make the gods pay, he wanted to make destiny itself pay and he did. He opened the portal and they came answering his call. Thinking about it, this "portal" is very reminiscent of the soul stream from which WE came although we're not gods, or are we?

    While I agree there were bland characters and pointless points in the story that were not necessary, i can just write those off as elements added for mechanics and contents sake so it's not all bad.

    To be frank, Saga 1 and 2 are very well complemented by the Divine Knights saga and more or less all the key elements of the Saga are touched in G19-21. While yes, seeing G18 on it's own makes it quite a bad generation story wise, the moment G19-21 came, it became brilliant. You say that the motivations are shallow but i'm pretty sure anyone in that position of "oppression" from some sort of deity would lash out in any way they could against it especially if they knew they had a shot of dealing actual damage.
    Now you may say that they were stupid for thinking like this because the otherworldly gods could destroy Erin right? Well I would say that's wrong because we still Have Aton Cimeni and the other mid tier gods. If a new deity came to overthrow them, i'm pretty sure they would act and frankly they DID act. Aton Cimeni gave divine light to the knights and gave them a fighting chance. Aton cimeni basically created Talvish and to some degree ascended him to the point where i'm sure he's on par with the other 3rd tier gods at the very least. Erin has forces to be reckoned with even not including the Miletnian. And assuming Aton Cimeni already knew the outcome of everything because the Book of Revelations already knew, he wouldn't really need to act.

    What makes the G18 story so brilliant are actually the other generations that came after it. It opened the story to something deeper than Mabi had before and that's not something easily achievable. almost every piece of story that came since G19 has been directly caused or is directly related to the events of G18 to some degree and I'm more than certain that G22 arc will prove this as well. I'm pretty sure the theme of this new chapter is the fight against destiny and again as a statement of the brilliance of G18 Destiny in Eirin does not affect the otherworldly beings (Or at least untill the book of revelations part 2 depicts the future of the otherworldly gods) or even if it does, this gives mabi an even larger overall plot point to touch upon as maybe there's a bigger picture than Aton Cimeni himself.

    These are just my 2 cents on this but for me, g18 was the gate for all this potential.

    PS: Let's not forget that G18 introduced the idea of demonic beings possesing other monsters like the litch and others so maybe there's also some other world of demons as well (I mean the Chain of destruction gave us one as well) and let's not forget the portal in Metus which for all intents and purposes can be used as a gate to the demon realm.
    AigisSherri
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Xafnir wrote: »
    1) The story does not have to be all about us (even if it WAS if you pay attention to G19-21 and even G22 in some points), we can play a character as it is viewed from a different perspective and that's not bad at all.
    2) Cichol is NOT dead as stated in G12 at the end AND G21
    3) Because of the end of G12, I have my doubts that Nuadha is still actually sealed too
    4) Morrighan only said she retires as she's tired of governing the mortals but in fact she meats up with Cichol AND Nuadha in Falias. Let's not forget Cichol already met up with Nuadha prior to G16 and we know Nuadha stole the power of the throne of Falias effectively making him something akin to a Mid Tier God, also remember that Morrighan and the Miletnian SEALED Nuadha in the Throne room BUT Cichol entered it and at the end of G16 Morrighan entered it too which (to my understanding) means that the throne room has been opened.
    5) You say that the control of the gods had already stopped by that time but it had not. There are 3 tiers of gods, from the only tier 1 being Aton Cimeni, to the 3rd tier ones being Cichol and the others. The 2nd tier gods still more or less guide the world in whatever direction they want. To a mortal, if a God "guides" the world in the direction of murder and destruction and they have the chance to mess them up then they WILL. All their actions are perfectly justified when confronting the gods.
    6) You say that our 3rd tier gods are ill equipped to handle the "otherworldly" intervention? I beg to differ as you can see how easily Cichol handles Brilluen with whom story wise we as the milletnian struggle. Our Gods are overwhelmingly powerful despite what anyone thinks. The fact that we beat a grieving Neamhain that was barely trying or a knock off awakening of Macha does not make any statement regarding their power. Also at the end of G16 we can see Morrighan meeting up with Cichol AND Nuadha, and Nuadha alone would be a force to be reckoned with let alone all 3 of them.

    Except when the perspective is changed, it is not actually real time, they are framed as our characters experiencing those as flash backs. In essence, the window by which we view the world is still through the eyes and experience of our characters, and our characters are viewing another person's experience via magic/dungeon instances. Saga instead has you take control of the characters while your character is suppose to be active as well, so no the perspective shift is different in feel, tone and usage. Basically in previous generations, perspective shifts are used as a way to explore another character's actions and gain insight on their experience so that we understand their situation at the present. Saga's perspective shifts instead are just so you take control of other characters while your body just becomes dead weight. If you look after the Sagas, we don't take real time control over any characters, all perspective shifts are in relation to character's actions already past. They are a narrative device that lets the player experience a flashback to that person experience and situation.

    During Saga, the Millitian is not suppose to be aware that Cichol survived/revived. That was a scene outside of the perspective of our character. Going into Saga, the Millitian is aware that Morrighan has retired, Cichol and dead, and Nuadha is sealed. From our character's point of view, and within the narrative information, that's what we're aware of, and that's what we'll tell Tarlach if he bothered to ask about the Gods.

    As for what the Gods are up to after our adventures with them, the fact remains that they have retired from active service. Their gripe on Erinn has severely loosened and their roles as guardians has been replaced by the Millitian. As for Nuadha's sealing, we're only shown him residing in Falias, where he was sealed. We're never told if he broke out and all evidence points to him still being bound there. Unless there's explicit evidence showing him leaving Falias, or his activities outside of it, he is for all intents and purposes, still sealed there. If anything I feel like Nuadha made the seal interactable so he could taunt Morrighan after all, remember, the seal was meant to bind Morrighan, we just turned it around on him instead.

    Finally, tier 1 and tier 2 Gods are do not directly involve themselves in the affairs of mortals, and have not done so since Erinn's creation. We're always told that Aton and his immediate subordinates offer teachings and guidance, but it was the 3rd tiers that had direct intervention. As in actually manifest and involve in direct interaction. The fact we've never seen any of the physical manifestations of the higher tier gods means they are largely out of the affairs of mortals and are instead closer to benign protective forces that separate Erinn from outside forces.

    On the topic of our Gods vs Outwordly Gods, the Apostles and Prophets are not Gods. I don't know why you could compare them to 3rd tier Gods because they are residents of Erinn granted power by outworldly power. They are in fact closer to what the modern Divine Knights are in creation, power, and rank. The fact that Cichol could smack them around would be like saying that Cichol could smack the Alban knights around, they are in different tiers to begin with. We have not seen any outworldly God, only their agents. The fact that their power can directly compete with Aton means that they have at least one deity that's on par with him and our Gods are severely weakened from infighting. Erinn's Gods are ill equipped because 1: their numbers are severely depleted from infighting and war, 2: Morrighan and Cichol cannot muster their mortal armies, at least not on the scale they could at the height of their power, Cichol for being abandoned by the Fomor race, Morrighan for being sealed for so long and having some mistrust sown over Cichol impersonating her during her sealing in G1. Consider for a moment that as an invasive force, the outworld Gods have a more unified force, given how much power their followers are given, at the very least a God of equivalent rank would rival one of Erinn's. Here's the deal, at the creation of Erinn, with all Gods assembled, Erinn would be protected against outside threats effectively, after the ages of infighting, difference, Gods retreating to their own corners of the world, Gods dying, and others becoming inactive (by sealing or leaving altogether) Erinn's Pantheon of Gods are weakened. They are ill equipped.
    What makes the G18 story so brilliant are actually the other generations that came after it. It opened the story to something deeper than Mabi had before and that's not something easily achievable. almost every piece of story that came since G19 has been directly caused or is directly related to the events of G18 to some degree and I'm more than certain that G22 arc will prove this as well. I'm pretty sure the theme of this new chapter is the fight against destiny and again as a statement of the brilliance of G18 Destiny in Eirin does not affect the otherworldly beings (Or at least untill the book of revelations part 2 depicts the future of the otherworldly gods) or even if it does, this gives mabi an even larger overall plot point to touch upon as maybe there's a bigger picture than Aton Cimeni himself.

    Except we literally just did that with G16. We have a tie in with all of the adventures up until then, you try to muster the forces of Emain and Tir, you are reminded of your past adventures, and bring all your allies in helping you retake Tara. This is nothing new. This is called continuity and Saga was not the only generation that did this. What it is guilty if is riding on the character arcs, development and emotional investment of other more successful generations. Tarlach and Ruairi are the ones to carry the story because we care about them, we didn't care about them because of the events of saga, we cared about them from past generations. Tarlach was a close ally and his character arc was also closely tied with the Millitian's actions. We found Tarlach as a broken man living alone in some remote location mending his broken body. As we adventured we brought closure and truth to his plight, Tarlach found his heroic spirit back and came to support you during your battle against the Fomors and the Dark Knights. Once again, we have emotional investment because of the actions and developments from past generations. Ruairi's arc is also deeply tied with us, he was overwhelmed by his grief that he lashed out at the world, yes, this sounds familiar, because this was done, in G2 and G3 already. He was antagonistic towards us because we represented everything he hated, we were the future he could've had but robbed of, we are the agents of the Goddess that ruined him, we represent the murderers of everyone he cares about. Ruairi's arc consisted him rediscovering his heroic spirit and finally breaking free from the gripe of Cichol and the Dark Knights. Saga's biggest crime is undoing all of that to repeat an arc that was already done, and done BETTER.

    Saga itself doesn't do anything for the characters it introduced. None of its characters changed in many meaningful way. Tarlach suddenly asking you for help was because he realized that summoning the Goddess of Destruction that WANTS to destroy the world was a bad idea. Ruairi again, repeats his Chapter 1 arc, only he dies this time, Millia starts off angry, and ends angry but in a coma. Akule is actually dirty and homeless now, Merlin starts of the smug butt monkey and ends a smug butt monkey. TH just continues on being a kleptomaniac with a hard-on for screwing Merlin over. Compare this to Merlin of chain of destruction and G21. He's still shown to be the same smug person, but little cracks and quips show dimension to his character, we don't see ANYTHING like that in Saga. Ruairi's was always in your face "HE'S SAD, BE SAD FOR HIM" narration. Merlin's was subtle and well written, he makes little comments here and there, then immediately covers them up with his usual demeanor, he's poke fun of by Eiren, but we learn that he's actually really insecure and doesn't connect with people well and followed the advise because that's really all he could go on. We can also compare Ruairi's characterization in Chapter 1 to Saga, once again, just for the in your face "HE'S SAD, BE SAD" narration. Ruairi has outbursts before returning to his calm demeanor, he gives "The reason you suck" speeches that outline genuine grievances (though misdirected) and we see that despite fighting for the dark knight, he STILL dreams about being the hero again, and is in constant conflict with his own ideals.

    Finally, to give Saga some credit, it had genuinely good ideas, but what you call potential, I call wasted potential. Saga itself just left a bunch of dead ends, we have the descendants of the first settlers that just dropped off the radar when it was all said and done, the consequences of Tarlach and Ruairi messing with Iria's protective magic is never explored besides, ancient ruins show up now. Even G19, which initially made the excuse that outworldly invasion was happening was because of the hole punch revealed that no, outworldly invasions have been happening since ancient times. Saga was not brilliant, you may have gotten the impression because it reuses plots, ideas, and rides on investments from OTHER more successful generations. It's the spoiled rich kid with everything on a plate for it and just coasted on its ingrained wealth until it was time to pass on the drain inheritance to its successor. Many of the points you highlighted are actually lore and back stories written well before Saga was even conceived, they simply used it, and then tossed it back into the pile, never elaborating upon it, expanding it, or doing its own thing with it.
    Sherri
  • LeineiLeinei
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    edited April 30, 2019
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    @Gaea I think some of the reasons why people didn't like Saga was some people found Millia's character to be annoying. Some missions were overly easy and not worth it. Others found some missions near impossible to do. Some people experienced pretty bad lag doing some of those episodes.

    Millia was a brat, that's for sure, but you gotta remember that her dad was killed by Demons and she's trying to learn magic and, you, the Milletian got in the way of that because the threat that killed her father, eventually turned its eyes on you. She wanted revenge. She has her reasons for her behavior. Tarlach and Ruairi were definitely the villains behind her suffering (Ruairi killed her mother in his efforts to help accomplish Tarlach's goal and their collaboration with the Cessair led to her father's demise and who knows who else).

    I'd like to bring up that Eirawen had a very similar start as well. Her father was said to have been killed by a Millitian (which is true) and is initially mistrustful of the Millitian as a result. Both have valid reasons for not trusting or even liking the Millitian. The difference here is that Eirawen actually got a character arc. Her character evolved through out the story gaining humility and wisdom through her experience. Millia never evolved, or changed. She just got progressively angrier and angrier. By comparison Eirawen was actually a lot more bratty, being an actual princess and was waited on by several servants when we first encounter her. Unless they bring her back for a future generation, Millia's story doesn't have an ending, it just stops. I would have been fine with Millia keeping her mistrust of the Millitian, but at the end, she was just regulated to plot Mcguffin #3. Mostly there to milk more angst out of Ruairi and then drop off the radar once her purpose was done.

    Yeah, Millia started to chill out and was cool with you, but then you disappeared and she found out that the Demons that killed her father were corrupted Milletians. Ruairi robbed her of a chance to get better before of another one of his moments where he jumps to freaking conclusions. He was tricked by Cichol, which lost him his friends, his own father used him to gain power by promising his son to a dragon, he found out that Triona died somehow (we still don't know how since it happened off screen), Lugh, the man he put his faith in dies in G16. What does he do? Decide, ok, I'm going to do this thing where I'm taking a woman against her will (Gael, Millia's Mom), kill a bunch of people because they got in the way, and IN SPITE of her healing him, he suddenly decides Millia is going to betray him too, cuts her down, kills her friends and then offers her up as a tribute for a summoning.

    Ruairi can only go so far claiming that he's been wronged. He tries to make up for it by helping save Millia, but then he keeps going with his path of idiocy in working with Dian Cecht and the Cessair. No, 'hey you guys lied to me and made us summon Macha, who could have destroyed the entire world' just 'ok, let's keep going'. It's infuriating that a character is THAT dense to not even question the Cessair after that. They likely knew exactly what Tarlach was doing, but instead was like "yay, we're going to destroy Neamhain's work!~". Bear in mind, a good way to cut off the world from the Gods would be to destroy it. So, technically, not lying, but not honest either.

    I'm going to be honest, in all the hate-filled bile that comes out of his mouth, MAIKE is a far more tragic character to me than Ruairi. He's a veteran from a war that's ending, still stuck with the horrors of his family lost to said war started by the two races fighting for the Goddess' Power. He hates Giants, that much is obvious, but he looks at the big picture and decides to tolerate them as they're working toward a common goal. He cares about his people, ordering none of them to die before his RP instance in Saga 1. He's having to look at the people that his people have hated for AGES and has to work with them. He doesn't sleep well, judging by the bags under his eyes, either from PTSD or overwork because that's just how much he cares about his job. His people STILL are threatened with the curse of turning into a Desert Ghost. Guy is leagues smarter and leagues emotionally stronger than Ruairi anyday and his thought process makes sense... and I still love his little smile when he suggests that the group just blows up Renes to handle the Cessair. =3

    Dowra is a great character due to her open mind. She also seems to have a great handle on how the war has affected her. I also love how she interacts with her subordinates too. =D

    Millia got screwed out of a potential comeback in Saga 2, instead delegated to the role of comatose prophet that speaks a few words and goes back to sleep. Come on, Nexon, give us something more than freaking scraps in regard to whether she'll be ok. Or if she's somehow fused with Macha. That would be scary, Millia and Macha as one. Millia would have to learn a lot of control real quick in that instance. Annnd it could fit into a Divine Knight thing,
    Talvish
    showing up and being like 'hey, there's some girl in Iria that's fused with a god, so... let's go look into that?'

    @GTCvActium Like I keep saying, I hated how everyone just rags on Merlin in Saga 2. It's horribly immature and it's not cool, nor is it good writing as you say. Treasure Hunter's story was extremely poorly told. Yay, he has a baby gorilla (who is annoying as hell because it picks on Merlin too!), but we never really find out the reason behind why he is so money-hungry. We never even find out the guy's name. From what I got from Saga 2 about him, supposedly he was one of the cursed people (Ban/Settlers) and his father gave his life to save three kids from the curse. Hey, Nexon, who were the other two kids? Part of me is thinking Shamala because she's never really explained either. Saga 2 had nothing in the way of character growth.
    GTCvActium
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    I feel like the Aces were just thrown together and used to give players something to look at while we work on something else.
    LeineiWolfsinger
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    This is what happens when people demand new content now now now.
    Kensamaofmari
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Leinei wrote: »
    @GTCvActium Like I keep saying, I hated how everyone just rags on Merlin in Saga 2. It's horribly immature and it's not cool, nor is it good writing as you say. Treasure Hunter's story was extremely poorly told. Yay, he has a baby gorilla (who is annoying as hell because it picks on Merlin too!), but we never really find out the reason behind why he is so money-hungry. We never even find out the guy's name. From what I got from Saga 2 about him, supposedly he was one of the cursed people (Ban/Settlers) and his father gave his life to save three kids from the curse. Hey, Nexon, who were the other two kids? Part of me is thinking Shamala because she's never really explained either. Saga 2 had nothing in the way of character growth.

    Well now that we've ragged on about how bad Saga was, we could take a look at all the good ideas it had. First and foremost is the ability to replay the story. The episodic nature of the quest lines means that people didn't burn out the content the few days its released, and its weekly return was a good way to get players to return and invest in a bit more.

    I like the idea about bringing Ancient Iria back into the mix and what other powerful enemies were sealed besides the dragons and how with the seal weakening, these ancient enemies would emerge again. Hell, the entire sub plot about the discovery of Hillwen technology and Shyllien magic was a wonderful thing. Too bad none of it really tied itself with the story besides "this is a thing now".

    The idea that the descendants of the first settlers are still active and plotting against Neamhain was a treasure trove of plots that could've been used. Shadow missions where we repel Cessair raiding attacks, or assaulting Cessair strongholds would have been an interesting thing to have included in. It'd make Iria a much more interesting place and have people hang out there more often.

    Millitians being possessed by demons is also an interesting idea. Missions centered around a bunch of corrupt Millitians as enemies would have been an interesting thing. Like they have the usual boss HP but can use player skills and their skill sets are randomized for each encounter.

    But as I've said before, Saga was a bunch of wasted potential. The story left little impact, the characters are half baked, and it mostly tried to ride off the success of other generations.
    Leinei
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    @GTCvActium Like I keep saying, I hated how everyone just rags on Merlin in Saga 2. It's horribly immature and it's not cool, nor is it good writing as you say. Treasure Hunter's story was extremely poorly told. Yay, he has a baby gorilla (who is annoying as hell because it picks on Merlin too!), but we never really find out the reason behind why he is so money-hungry. We never even find out the guy's name. From what I got from Saga 2 about him, supposedly he was one of the cursed people (Ban/Settlers) and his father gave his life to save three kids from the curse. Hey, Nexon, who were the other two kids? Part of me is thinking Shamala because she's never really explained either. Saga 2 had nothing in the way of character growth.

    Well now that we've ragged on about how bad Saga was, we could take a look at all the good ideas it had. First and foremost is the ability to replay the story. The episodic nature of the quest lines means that people didn't burn out the content the few days its released, and its weekly return was a good way to get players to return and invest in a bit more.

    I like the idea about bringing Ancient Iria back into the mix and what other powerful enemies were sealed besides the dragons and how with the seal weakening, these ancient enemies would emerge again. Hell, the entire sub plot about the discovery of Hillwen technology and Shyllien magic was a wonderful thing. Too bad none of it really tied itself with the story besides "this is a thing now".

    The idea that the descendants of the first settlers are still active and plotting against Neamhain was a treasure trove of plots that could've been used. Shadow missions where we repel Cessair raiding attacks, or assaulting Cessair strongholds would have been an interesting thing to have included in. It'd make Iria a much more interesting place and have people hang out there more often.

    Millitians being possessed by demons is also an interesting idea. Missions centered around a bunch of corrupt Millitians as enemies would have been an interesting thing. Like they have the usual boss HP but can use player skills and their skill sets are randomized for each encounter.

    But as I've said before, Saga was a bunch of wasted potential. The story left little impact, the characters are half baked, and it mostly tried to ride off the success of other generations.

    They could've developed Iria a lot more which I am disappointed in. Also, I kinda miss the old version of Vales and Filia. The only hope is that Iria will be further developed in the future.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited April 30, 2019
    I like Maike. He has redeeming traits despite his outright racism of giants, as he cares dearly for his subordinates. Dowra is big sisterly.

    Millia? She is well...she either got worst with you or stagnated, and this basically sums up how the Milletian is treated throughout every generation; we are tools to be used, people to be defeated, and we are relegated to being passive players within the universe. Millia to me exemplifies the worse traits of how the stories generally treat Milletian, never giving us the respect that we know we deserve, nor turning events to let Millia see how wrong she was in the end to hate us.

    That, and personal issue. Millia looks like a child, and I hate spoiled children who think they know better, and who throw tantrums towards those who try to help them while getting along with those who may not have their best interest in heart. Seriously....

    DrSaLgTU8AAjFCd.png

    She is so gosh darn irritating to look at. You couldn't have given me an attractive woman to hate me, Nexon? Just this bratty 12-year-old trying to act like she's an adult with that twin braid hairstyle. Like really now? Get a job, kid!


    Now, here's a woman who is most certainly an adult...

    C7W9Y0R.png

    Perfection.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Y'know, every time Maike's name shows up, for some reason it reminds me of the Finding Nemo seagulls.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    My favorite ship.

    tumblr_p585anY3Tw1rsh1xqo5_640.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo7_1280.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo5_640.png
    KensamaofmariWolfsingerRadiant Dawn
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Gaea wrote: »
    My favorite ship.

    tumblr_p585anY3Tw1rsh1xqo5_640.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo7_1280.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo5_640.png

    Not bad, not bad at all.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,785
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    Gaea wrote: »
    My favorite ship.

    tumblr_p585anY3Tw1rsh1xqo5_640.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo7_1280.png
    tumblr_ozra56ktmi1rsh1xqo5_640.png

    Not bad, not bad at all.

    Oh it's not my art. The art was something I found from this user's tumblr account. https://rianrianing.tumblr.com/
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