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What if Hailstorm became like Giant Fullswing

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  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,295
    Posts: 127
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    edited May 9
    -

    I strongly disagree early game is short or maybe we have different ideas of what early game is and isn't. Maybe with Memoir you can close the gap but from personal experience you can be level 10000+ and still feel uncomfortable in Alban Training or Phantasm. Early game to me is ranking skills and doing everything that comes before min/maxing. (i.e. hunting for your final enchants, combo cards, reforging, crafting celtic weapons, worrying about bohemian and hebona-type set bonuses) How strong does magic have to be for it to work in tech duinn for you damage wise? Honestly no clue about duinn but it still works everywhere else for me.

    As for the hydra thing, it's just a solution to mprot. To say, there's nothing you can do because mobs have mprot is pretty ridiculous if you don't at least try what's available.

    Lutetium Not bad faith strawmanning but you were comparing 300,000 total level leaderboard characters on the KR server yet a few years ago I remember a forum post about people bragging about their total levels and we were nowhere near 120,000 let alone 300,000. I don't know how to explain this without possibly pissing you off but people telling other players to focus on efficiency so they "win" and kill things faster vs helping them get better at doing what they originally wanted to do can be the opposite of fun. It's pretty elitist.

    Just because Puppetry has a big aoe move doesn't mean it invalidates magic. What if you want to do magic damage instead of physical or you don't want to look like a doofus with puppets? Free players can only equip 2 weapons at once so what if they don't want to have to equip a control bar, summon the puppet and charge for 2 seconds just to AoE mobs on a 17 second cooldown? I'm not having too much problems with game balance outside of seeing chainblades being way too strong before you actually invest anything into it but if you think magic needs some buffs, sure that's fine. I'd rather see a skill be buffed than removed completely though.
    FOXAssassin
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,050
    Posts: 174
    Member
    edited May 8
    Cho wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.

    Nerfing firebolt does not give people incentive to use other magic skills. It makes them not use firebolt. (or just give up on magic as well)

    People prioritize magnum and crash shot now over AR. Players aren't gravitating towards golems anymore because they stopped being broken. Hypothetically how would nerfing firebolt make someone give up on the magic talent as a whole?


    When you take away one of the few magic skills that is still viable might as well just move on to other skillset... Magic will be still needed in some niche situations like monsters that can be only damaged by magic. (Or Alban Knights Training Ground with 50% max damage restriction) But it isn't worth investing much into magic only for that situation.

    You say magic is still usable but...you can use any skillsets to clear out low level content like shadow missions. However, end game contents pretty much restricts users into using certain skillsets. Ever since Phantasm came out monsters started to have ridiculously high magic defense/prot. This pretty much puts magic into bad state, and magic itself has its own problem too. Magic attack formula also makes magic obsolete-The more m. attack you have, the less you will gain from it. For example, improving your m. attack from 300 too 400 will improve your damage dramatically, but going from 600 to 700 will gain less. It just shows you that magic will remain obsolete with all the power inflation going on, unless it gets fixed somehow.

    Just my personal experience here: I started game as magic main and eventually switched to archer because all those new contents really hit hard on magic.(+They also made archery as elf identity with Vision of Ladeca) My step 7 wand mostly sits in my inventory now because it's damage is pathetic for a reforged R7 weapon(against content after phantasm). At most I use it for lightening bolt spam in Baltane, or Alban knights training grounds, or magic damage only monsters, knocking enemy down, etc.

    *Sitting there waiting for hydra to cut monster's m.def/m.prot is just inconvenient and inefficient and slow.

    Your example of AR is inaccurate because magnum shot is elf meta not human meta. Elves don't even have AR, so nerf on AR does not even have effect on magnum shot being meta. It was Vision of Ladeca that made magnum shot as a meta.
    OwntrolfLutetiumFOXAssassin
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,460
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited May 9
    Even if I'm nice and assume a low atk of about 600-800
    Most top archers I know should have over 1000 in min/max
    40% overture
    R7 Bow/
    840-1120 Base Atk
    3.24x Critical Multiplier

    Not assuming dual Magnum Damage 3 Accessories
    Dragon Bone Chip has not been factored into this +20% attack damage, this will stack multiplicatively with overture giving you a min/max multiplier of 1.68x your base damage

    Erg50 Bow/Crossbow was not factored in this, but doubled aimspeed with reduced cd on miss will increase the dps easily over firebolt


    Dan3 Magnum 560%
    4704-6272 non crit
    15240-20321 crit

    Magnum Damage 20 Gloves + 200%
    = 760%
    6384-8512 non crit
    20684-27578 crit

    Bohemian Magnum Boost(1.15x)
    = 874%
    7341-9789 non crit
    23786-31715 crit

    87% Magnum combo card(6th Magnum)
    = 1634.38%
    13728-18305 non crit
    44478-59308 crit

    The damage is much higher on an actual dedicated elf archer who shoots magnums every 0.5 seconds, I was just being nice and put a lower base min/max damage

    Here is the damage you would do with the most OP reforge/set effect setup with 87% combo card, 800MA, 450-600 atk with 43% overture.
    R7 wand for the non ego wand

    Sorry you need to open the image in another tab to see the entire chart

    Non Ego Wand
    8d227088ab.png
    Ego Wand
    f9c43a4812.png

    Everything here is assuming no reductions.
    Dont forget that physical damage has many def/prot reducing skills such as bone dragon summon, uppercut, scooter imp, snowman, dance of death,

    Bows/crossbows have a piercing of 1~5
    Regular Crossbows 1
    Bhafel Hunter 1 + 1
    Divine Crossbow 2 + (1~3) Novel Enchant
    Celtic Royal Crossbow 3 + 1

    Piercing from 1~5 ignores 6 def and 5 prot per level
    Piercing 1 = 6 def 5 prot ignore
    Piercing 5 = 40 def 25 prot ignore

    Hydra's reductions are nothing compared to what physical classes can use.
    If I had the opportunity to change race, I would switch to elf and go do archery instead of magic

    EDIT: I made a magnum spreadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dnKybjDybZkzsf4dc794YWhGApiwG20QWYnA_U6ZkmA/edit?usp=sharing

    c6316d050a.png

    LutetiumCrims
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,490
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    I have nothing to add here, except this image.

    swwrvu1453171798.jpg?w=680&h=255

    One of the funny things about humans like ourselves is our insistence on what we believe to be true or logical despite calculations to the contrary, and our poor ability to entertain the fact that we may be incorrect or flat out wrong. We wouldn't have opinions if we did not think those opinions were correct. That doesn't mean they are.
    FOXAssassin
  • LutetiumLutetium
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,035
    Posts: 106
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    Cho wrote: »
    Honestly no clue about duinn but it still works everywhere else for me.
    Why are you arguing that skills don't need rebalanced when you haven't even experienced the content of the game?
    Cho wrote: »
    Not bad faith strawmanning but you were comparing 300,000 total level leaderboard characters on the KR server yet a few years ago I remember a forum post about people bragging about their total levels and we were nowhere near 120,000 let alone 300,000.
    You're failing to realize most of NA's higher level players do not post on these forums; And you continue to strawman the point I was making that NA's playerbase level average isn't so low that no one is doing the endgame content and hasn't maxed out almost every skill along the way by spewing arbitrary numbers like "120,000" but if you're so obsessed with the exact numbers I'm personally aware of at least one 60k on tarlach, a few 50ks, and several 40ks, which I would be able to count myself among but I switched mains so instead I have a 25k elf and 20k giant. Both of which can solo scathach lords, rooms of if not the entirety (though I'd rather take friends for more chests instead of using passes for only 1 reward roll) of phantasm and alban heroic, and of course Tech Duinn; though I havent done g22 on the elf since it came after I shelf'd it, I can duo normals with my girlfriend easily enough, and we can clear advances with a couple more people or slog through them a little slower without.

    She's better at the game than me of course, having played it since the KR beta in 2003 when she was a wee lass who hadn't even learned the English she uses today to tell me how it's a "pointless waste of time" to post on these forums and "argue with people who don't actually play the game". I'm going off on a tangent; Though she is yet another example of a high level player who doesn't post here.
    Cho wrote: »
    I don't know how to explain this without possibly pissing you off but people telling other players to focus on efficiency so they "win" and kill things faster vs helping them get better at doing what they originally wanted to do can be the opposite of fun. It's pretty elitist.
    I think you're a militant nooblitist personally, someone who doesn't really understand most of the mechanics or content of the game but speaks with absolute authority and has convinced themselves that they are omniscient on all subjects despite self admitting having little to no experience with the content being discussed. But you're welcome to hurl more baseless insults at one of the few higher level players who does post here on the subjects of game balance and tries to share their knowledge with those asking questions or confused about game mechanics. I come from a time before phoneposting special snowflakes and "social" media, before broadband, and even before /g/ was - Technology, so I promise you no matter how hard you smash your keyboard on the other side of the world you don't have to worry one bit about "pissing me off", I'm quite a calm and reasonable person even when my counterparts are bad faith actors and trolls :)

    With that out of the way; Informing newer players that "what they wanted to use" does not scale well later in the game is in no way "ruining their fun" it's simply sharing the knowledge with them ahead of time so they are informed and aware that the game is not properly balanced as it should be and they would be better served using certain other skills or weapons later on. Generally speaking most people who play RPGs or really most genres want to experience some feeling of making progress rather than smashing their skull in on a concrete wall like magic makes you feel you're doing late game now. After all these years of helping out newbies though I've never received any real negative reaction or "stop ruining my fun" sorts of responses, most new players who are actually interested in the game are grateful for advice that will help them make real progression in the game instead of getting stuck at an artificial brick wall.
    Cho wrote: »
    Just because Puppetry has a big aoe move doesn't mean it invalidates magic. What if you want to do magic damage instead of physical or you don't want to look like a doofus with puppets? Free players can only equip 2 weapons at once so what if they don't want to have to equip a control bar, summon the puppet and charge for 2 seconds just to AoE mobs on a 17 second cooldown?
    Maybe you haven't seen my other posts but I don't pour cash into the game an am one of those "Free players with only 2 weapon slots", but even us serfs can hold the control key and click on a weapon in our inventory mid combat. As for Act 7's cooldown (which you neglected to acknowledge is lowered by Control Marionette further reinforcing bad faith or lack of understanding) , at the time Fireball was around 25 seconds or more to cast, did less damage, and hit less monsters, while consuming 125~ mana in an era where hitting 800mp was "late game", Intermediate magic has been made slightly faster and use a smidgen less mana since then but the end result is negligible when considering puppet still has act 6 and 4 to use between act 7s. And honestly puppet is in a pretty bad situation now until g23 rolls out, and even then it only becomes "good" after investing into erg 50 on your Ferocious control bars with "good" meaning "it becomes usable" and not "it isn't clunky and buggy anymore", but even in puppet's state it still does infact invalidate intermediate magic.
    Cho wrote: »
    I'm not having too much problems with game balance outside of seeing chainblades being way too strong before you actually invest anything into it but if you think magic needs some buffs, sure that's fine.
    Saying that Chain is "too strong" is another telltale sign of not understanding the game's content and balance beyond intermediate level shadow warrior. Chains scale slightly better than most weapons very early game, but all throughout they are one of the slowest skillsets and are massively crippled by having to slowly normal attack 20+ times to use a skill 7 times, or 5 times really since you have to use the chain burst buff skill to validate using chains at all in any harder content.

    The reality is what people who believe "chains are too strong" are actually experiencing is a skillset which is balanced to rely more on skill ranks than reforges for it's damage output while only looking at what they consider to be big numbers and not taking into consideration the tedium in maintaining dorha, the undesirable situations it puts you in when you run out and can't even anchor rush to get out of being stunlocked after spinning slash aggros everything it touches, or give any consideration to how long the animations are and how you're locked into them even if mobs move away.

    Chain Slash isn't an "overpowered" skillset, it's an example of a good skillset, it has the upsides of doing high damage but the downsides of being slow to execute, relying on a resource you can't spam potions to refill, and often leaving you completely vulnerable by either being stuck in an animation or running out of dorcha in a critical moment.

    But an example of the cold hard truth about Chains? After erg upgrdes, reforges, and combo cards; Shooting rush and Kunai storm spam will clear Phantasm faster and less risk than chain.
    Cho wrote: »
    I'd rather see a skill be removed completely though.
    This single line is the ultimate nail in the coffin for you being a bad faith troll, proving that every post you have made in the thread has been nothing but trolling, this was a thread made to discuss the rebalancing of the worst skill in the game so that we as a community can come up with something that can be suggested to the developers as a fix. Saying "just delete it lol" contributes absolutely nothing and worse still goes against the very spirit of the discussion at hand; Not unlike the post in the 2h thread about "just asking sabina for a soluna" but unlike that poster you didn't make it completely and blatantly obvious you've been trolling until this line. As I have already spoken my views on Hailstorm I see no purpose in further responding to you when your only intent conveyed is to troll and derail the thread.

    Thankfully most of the posters in this thread are acting in good faith and actually do want to have a discussion about the skill in question in the game these forums are dedicated to.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,030
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    One thing I'd like to point out is that skills require revamps because they were made in a time when the game play was completely different. For those players that played prior to the combat revamps that saw the removal of load times, Hail Storm comes from such a time. Combat these days are much MUCH faster and are heavily dependent on reactionary and skill spamming than the tactical application of skill chains and the need to plan out offensive and defensive skills ahead of time. When it was created, Hail storm was actually quite strong, it was basically an MP efficient fire bolt with excellent attack, range, and cost at the expense of locking you on a spot. When Hail storm was conceived, fire bolt had the distinct issue of consuming too much MP to be used as a sustain barrage.

    Adding to Lute's comment, the usefulness of the skill correlate with the time/era of their creation. Chain Blade is powerful and easy because it was DESIGNED for the current meta. It focuses on high damage skill and quick bursts of damage to clear out enemy mobs with the necessity of rebuilding your resources with the scant survivors of your assault. Hail Storm was created at a time when combat was made for very close range, in a typical dungeon room, you can very well corner enemies with it where its lack of mobility is little concern, and its backed by a reasonably powerful splash and damage. Compared to magic of its day, its start up time was actually reasonable, and its crystal generation was FASTER than anything the elemental magics could muster. The trade off was the fire bolt was more mobile, but consumed a lot of resources and was weaker in comparison. Hail storm on the other hand was more efficient, had splash damage, and carried a faster charge time at the cost of mobility and required commitment and planning from the player. Looking back, Hail storm was designed well for when it was introduced. The combat then focused on planned assaults, careful application of skills that use them to their maximum advantages each with distinct advantages and disadvantages. In comparison to today's meta that focuses on fast AoE damage, fast paced skills, and reactionary applications of skills that requires you quickly clear out large swaths of mobs.

    This is why revamps are requested. They allow older skills to be changed so that they could be viable in today's meta. If we were in favor deleting skills over revamps, than the only skills sets we'd get to play would be Chains, Gun, ninja, and puppet. Magic deserves a revamp, a much better one at that. It forms one of the 3 pillars of combat in mabi, that being magical damage. Magic is also a very alluring concept, its fun to rain down fire, and its reputation of being the "heavy artillery" of fighting is just a front in its current state. There is honestly nothing it does that another skill/skill set does better. Its only real claim is that one form of defenses render it the only viable form of attack. Magic deserves better, and we should demand better.
    LutetiumLadameFOXAssassin
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,295
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    Lutetium somehow you think everything beneath the hardest content is the same as an intermediate shadow mission.
    I'd rather see a skill be removed completely though.

    This is a typo meant to say "I'd rather see a skill be buffed than be removed completely. But I guess you're really scouring my post for errors even though that line wouldn't make any sense in context with that I just said before that . You're clearly wrong about chainblades. They may fall off later but they're way too strong compared to other weapons.
    Chain Slash isn't an "overpowered" skillset, it's an example of a good skillset, it has the upsides of doing high damage but the downsides of being slow to execute, relying on a resource you can't spam potions to refill, and often leaving you completely vulnerable by either being stuck in an animation or running out of dorcha in a critical moment.

    But an example of the cold hard truth about Chains? After erg upgrdes, reforges, and combo cards; Shooting rush and Kunai storm spam will clear Phantasm faster and less risk than chain.

    Having a bash substitute and almost the same damage as r1 windmill on rF Chain sweep as one of the first skills you recieve already makes it too powerful. You're just wrong about it being slow, and as a resource you can build by just by attacking anything it's not the same as mana or stam.

    Owntrolf I just did the magic damage formula and got 71484 as the max damage of a fully charged firebolt adding in the mastery reforges, hebona set, the combo card bonus, and r7 red special upgrade firewand with no accessory reforges. What formula are you using? I used the wiki's one. I didn't use firebolt max damage or battlefield overture but would consider using casting speed and vivace instead.

    In the situation where an elf actually can load magnum shot and instantly shoot with no aiming time, magnum overpowers firebolt sure but the moment firebolt started doing over 40,000 damage you've already passed 99% of content in the game solo. That's the problem with end game numbers. Eventually it starts getting irrelevantly high and some skillset will have an advantage. Unless you've reached the point where you can choose between 800 magic attack or 1000 bow max damage easily, this doesn't apply and definitely should'n't be the deciding factor of whether magic is weak or needs a revamp.
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,460
    Posts: 94
    Member
    edited May 9
    Cho wrote: »
    Lutetium somehow you think everything beneath the hardest content is the same as an intermediate shadow mission.
    I'd rather see a skill be removed completely though.

    This is a typo meant to say "I'd rather see a skill be buffed than be removed completely. But I guess you're really scouring my post for errors even though that line wouldn't make any sense in context with that I just said before that . You're clearly wrong about chainblades. They may fall off later but they're way too strong compared to other weapons.
    Chain Slash isn't an "overpowered" skillset, it's an example of a good skillset, it has the upsides of doing high damage but the downsides of being slow to execute, relying on a resource you can't spam potions to refill, and often leaving you completely vulnerable by either being stuck in an animation or running out of dorcha in a critical moment.

    But an example of the cold hard truth about Chains? After erg upgrdes, reforges, and combo cards; Shooting rush and Kunai storm spam will clear Phantasm faster and less risk than chain.

    Having a bash substitute and almost the same damage as r1 windmill on rF Chain sweep as one of the first skills you recieve already makes it too powerful. You're just wrong about it being slow, and as a resource you can build by just by attacking anything it's not the same as mana or stam.

    Owntrolf I just did the magic damage formula and got 71484 as the max damage of a fully charged firebolt adding in the mastery reforges, hebona set, the combo card bonus, and r7 red special upgrade firewand with no accessory reforges. What formula are you using? I used the wiki's one. I didn't use firebolt max damage or battlefield overture but would consider using casting speed and vivace instead.

    In the situation where an elf actually can load magnum shot and instantly shoot with no aiming time, magnum overpowers firebolt sure but the moment firebolt started doing over 40,000 damage you've already passed 99% of content in the game solo. That's the problem with end game numbers. Eventually it starts getting irrelevantly high and some skillset will have an advantage. Unless you've reached the point where you can choose between 800 magic attack or 1000 bow max damage easily, this doesn't apply and definitely should'n't be the deciding factor of whether magic is weak or needs a revamp.

    how do you "mistakenly" type removed instead of buffed.

    You forgot about Final Shot + Vision of Ladeca + bow/xbow erg speed bonuses which with a properly scaling combo card basically makes makes magnum much higher and practically instant.

    You obviously dont understand how combo cards work with magic. you should not be shooting 71k firebolts in general
    its clear that you multiplied the overall damage by the combo card which is incorrect.

    Bolt magic has a normal multiplier of
    +150% Magic Weapon mastery
    +15% Ele Mastery
    +15% Bolt Mastery
    =+180% bolt damage

    Standard bolt should hit 2.8x damage
    87% combo boost relative to the current 280% bolt damage is an increase of 31% on your 6th firebolt.
    0.87/2.8=0.310714286

    Next time show your full calculation instead of just pulling a number out of your ass like you complained about my dps chart

    I wouldnt be surprised if you were just a troll account.

    You have mountains of evidence and facts with the opinions against you, yet you refuse to acknowledge it and continue with your galaxy brain ideals.
  • LastSaturdayLastSaturday
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,105
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    edited May 9
    What if Hail storm was an AoE over time attack that made hail fall from the sky like some kind of hail storm at random points inside a big read circle doing damage on direct hit and freezing a small radius (not ice spear range) at R5-2 with slightly bigger range at R1. Also does not propagate.

    Then you can have fusion Elite magic where you summon meteor exactly along the red circle while hail storm is activated to make it a frozen meteor that freezes enemies and burns them due to how cold it is, but cancels hail storms. Okay this last bit never gunna happen but would be neat and give a lot of life to magic
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
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    I love having 10 new Alexina threads
    Lutetium