Check out the P.E.T. Part 2 preview site: http://mabinogi.nexon.net/micro-site/pet/part2
Check out the patch notes for the July 16th update, P.E.T. Part 1: http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/23332/
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Mabinogi Feedback Survey!

Comments

  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 45,540
    Posts: 6,738
    Member
    Sherri wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Let's also point out that people outright eat you alive if you try to say that you are planning to report gold sellers/buyers and modders.

    So proud of this community.

    Haha, if I come across any, I'll 10000% report them. Not like it will help but it'll bring mental stability for me. :')

    You're quite resilient.

    Absolute madlad!
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    edited September 16, 2019
    The economy is effected from several fronts. One is the money supply. The money supply increases when folks harvest gold either manually or by letting their computer do it for them while they are AFK. The money supply is decreased when folks spend it at NPC shops. The gold ingress, I think, will always be greater than the gold egress; harvesting bots make it worse. If bots could be stopped then the rate of inflation would be at a minimum but it would not be zero. Still, if they could stop the bots, then that would be better than not.

    The other front is the sellers. Buying and selling to and from sellers does not effect the overall money supply. So, if rich people buy and sell to and from other rich people, the money supply, overall, remains unaffected. The uber rich, not the botters but the owners of stock, are going to set their prices based on what they think they can get for it, can anyone blame them? If their customer base included other uber rich, then that will drive up prices, because they can get what they ask, eventually. The richest of these people are the ones willing to spend real money on the game and lots of it. They spend their money buying gachapons; because of the nature of gachapons they're are forced to do so in fact. When you buy and use a lot of gachapons the process goes like this:
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Eh
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - m not bad, I guess
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - YAY!!!!
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    So they eventually get what they want but they have a whole bunch of garbage they don't. But as Oscar the Grouch says: "One persons trash is another persons treasure." So they put all that on sale. They earn gold. Repeating the process makes them part of the uber rich. These folks aren't doing anything wrong. They're playing by the rules in fact and are helping Nexon make expected return. You can't blame them for selling the stuff they don't want, we'd all do the same. Some folks make it into the patrician class by using buy low sell high. They buy goods they know are underpriced and flip them. Such people are the ones I was referring to as folks that roll up their sleeves to get rich.

    If I understand correctly, there may be an issue with gachapons in some districts as their randomness is seen as gambling or some such thing. Due to their random nature, I avoid them and I've actually spent hundreds of dollars on this game. If they did away with gachapons for direct purchase of items, even marked up, I think there would be more customers to the webshop. The folks purchasing gachapons now are the ones that feel they can afford to take a lot of fails. I think most folks playing this game don't have the same belief. People have called for items to go on direct sale in the webshop, but just mark them up. Would folks pay say 50k NX or even 100k NX for precisely the wings they want? Maybe. Nexons sales team would have to find the sweet spot between what price versus expected increase size of market.

    What I'm getting at is to get the economy back to normal can be accomplished by increasing the supply of desired goods. Either eventually, say a year after they are sold in the webshop, have NPCs sell them (it'd be a gold sink after all) or allow them to be crafted (the plans purchased from an NPC, another gold sink), or sell them more often or even constantly in the webshop, even if as gachapons, but better still as direct sales.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    The economy is effected from several fronts. One is the money supply. The money supply increases when folks harvest gold either manually or by letting their computer do it for them while they are AFK. The money supply is decreased when folks spend it at NPC shops. The gold ingress, I think, will always be greater than the gold egress; harvesting bots make it worse. If bots could be stopped then the rate of inflation would be at a minimum but it would not be zero. Still, if they could stop the bots, then that would be better than not.

    The other front is the sellers. Buying and selling to and from sellers does not effect the overall money supply. So, if rich people buy and sell to and from other rich people, the money supply, overall, remains unaffected. The uber rich, not the botters but the owners of stock, are going to set their prices based on what they think they can get for it, can anyone blame them? If their customer base included other uber rich, then that will drive up prices, because they can get what they ask, eventually. The richest of these people are the ones willing to spend real money on the game and lots of it. They spend their money buying gachapons; because of the nature of gachapons they're are forced to do so in fact. When you buy and use a lot of gachapons the process goes like this:
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Eh
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - m not bad, I guess
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - YAY!!!!
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    Use - Damn
    So they eventually get what they want but they have a whole bunch of garbage they don't. But as Oscar the Grouch says: "One persons trash is another persons treasure." So they put all that on sale. They earn gold. Repeating the process makes them part of the uber rich. These folks aren't doing anything wrong. They're playing by the rules in fact and are helping Nexon make expected return. You can't blame them for selling the stuff they don't want, we'd all do the same. Some folks make it into the patrician class by using buy low sell high. They buy goods they know are underpriced and flip them. Such people are the ones I was referring to as folks that roll up their sleeves to get rich.

    If I understand correctly, there may be an issue with gachapons in some districts as their randomness is seen as gambling or some such thing. Due to their random nature, I avoid them and I've actually spent hundreds of dollars on this game. If they did away with gachapons for direct purchase of items, even marked up, I think there would be more customers to the webshop. The folks purchasing gachapons now are the ones that feel they can afford to take a lot of fails. I think most folks playing this game don't have the same belief. People have called for items to go on direct sale in the webshop, but just mark them up. Would folks pay say 50k NX or even 100k NX for precisely the wings they want? Maybe. Nexons sales team would have to find the sweet spot between what price versus expected increase size of market.

    What I'm getting at is to get the economy back to normal can be accomplished by increasing the supply of desired goods. Either eventually, say a year after they are sold in the webshop, have NPCs sell them (it'd be a gold sink after all) or allow them to be crafted (the plans purchased from an NPC, another gold sink), or sell them more often or even constantly in the webshop, even if as gachapons, but better still as direct sales.

    But one has to remember, how can they sustain real revenue growth for their company at the same time?
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    But one has to remember, how can they sustain real revenue growth for their company at the same time?

    It depends on whether you believe that gachapons are the only way to keep the game afloat.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    But one has to remember, how can they sustain real revenue growth for their company at the same time?

    It depends on whether you believe that gachapons are the only way to keep the game afloat.

    Well, at the moment, it does not seem like there are items that will grow revenue in shops. The non gacha items stabilize growth, but what can they replace gachas with that players will keep buying, but also not kill the in game economy?
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    edited September 16, 2019
    Well, at the moment, it does not seem like there are items that will grow revenue in shops. The non gacha items stabilize growth, but what can they replace gachas with that players will keep buying, but also not kill the in game economy?

    I think folks want to kill the present form of the in-game economy. Gachapons can be replaced with selling items directly. It will probably take some iterations to find the sweet spot in terms of price and maximizing market participation. Rather than having each and every possible item in the webshop, which would leave to never mind paging through it but chaptering through it, they could sell "boxes". Say like a "wing" box. You buy the box, then use it. It presents a list of wings and you select which you want. The box turns into the selected item and you're done. So rather than having 80 items in the webshop for wings you just have one.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Well, at the moment, it does not seem like there are items that will grow revenue in shops. The non gacha items stabilize growth, but what can they replace gachas with that players will keep buying, but also not kill the in game economy?

    I think folks want to kill the present form of the in-game economy. Gachapons can be replaced with selling items directly. It will probably take some iterations to find the sweet spot in terms of price and maximizing market participation. Rather than having each and every possible item in the webshop, which would leave to never mind paging through it but chaptering through it, they could sell "boxes". Say like a "wing" box. You buy the box, then use it. It presents a list of wings and you select which you want. The box turns into the selected item and you're done. So rather than having 80 items in the webshop for wings you just have one.

    Revamp the economy, have everyone turn in their gold for something and come up with a new currency.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    Revamp the economy, have everyone turn in their gold for something and come up with a new currency.

    Some items cost like 40M ducats. What if NPC's sold items for that in gold or even for higher, that'd be a heck of a gold sink.
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,745
    Posts: 1,226
    Member
    well the economy had already been damaged where it would take too long to attempt to repair it along with dealing with player backlash. As this game stands I wouldn't know how to bring it to it's grace state as it once was, Mabinogi as I know it died years ago and even if they manage to bring it back Mabinogi will hit rock bottom quick again.

    Although Id like more activity other than combat all the time, like new areas, lore to unearth, new dungeons to discover or maybe some new enemies born from the ashes of the destruction we bring and not JUST for dungeons bring more enemies to the fields.

    Make farms worthwhile, new ingredients used for cooking.
    Make Gardens a feature for potion making or Alchemy
    Make hunting fields for cooking or crafting
    Improve Commerce to have more use
    Remaster Synthesis and other construct Alchemy skills
    Remaster old clothing in NPC clothing shops
    Make Blueprints a one time use to learn forever
    Improve Catering skill to bypass stat cap from food buffs - they became sorta worthless lategame
    Make a Slayers Guild that handles info on when and where along with info for which channel

    Each town/village is dead besides 2 major hangouts (Dunbarton and Belvast) its time for a new content ingame event to be made how does "Invasion field quests" sound? The Mercenary outpost will handle which town/village would get hit by an Invasion of mobs for the players to defend and defeat enemy invasion leaders to end the invasion.

    At least these would make me it interesting for me but it is wishful thinking.
    Kensamaofmaripawcalypse
  • pawcalypsepawcalypse
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,305
    Posts: 486
    Member
    edited September 16, 2019
    Alshian wrote: »
    well the economy had already been damaged where it would take too long to attempt to repair it along with dealing with player backlash. As this game stands I wouldn't know how to bring it to it's grace state as it once was, Mabinogi as I know it died years ago and even if they manage to bring it back Mabinogi will hit rock bottom quick again.

    Although Id like more activity other than combat all the time, like new areas, lore to unearth, new dungeons to discover or maybe some new enemies born from the ashes of the destruction we bring and not JUST for dungeons bring more enemies to the fields.

    Make farms worthwhile, new ingredients used for cooking.
    Make Gardens a feature for potion making or Alchemy
    Make hunting fields for cooking or crafting
    Improve Commerce to have more use
    Remaster Synthesis and other construct Alchemy skills
    Remaster old clothing in NPC clothing shops
    Make Blueprints a one time use to learn forever
    Improve Catering skill to bypass stat cap from food buffs - they became sorta worthless lategame
    Make a Slayers Guild that handles info on when and where along with info for which channel

    Each town/village is dead besides 2 major hangouts (Dunbarton and Belvast) its time for a new content ingame event to be made how does "Invasion field quests" sound? The Mercenary outpost will handle which town/village would get hit by an Invasion of mobs for the players to defend and defeat enemy invasion leaders to end the invasion.

    At least these would make me it interesting for me but it is wishful thinking.

    Thank you! I really wish what can be received from Gachas should be rewarded in-game instead. Each gacha-item seem to become throw-away items as the next gacha arrives. There is "value" in rarity but an item becomes more worthy if it was received through a struggle (in-game) and not because of a purchase and luck.

    I feel Belvast and Dunbarton are only doing well because of the sudden shift of everyone wanting to literally capitalize on sales of items. As one player pointed out, most players just want to sell things and nothing else. Most of the time players AFK or horde on the latest fashion item/OP weapon that they won't use, but just for looks. It seems as though players AFK just to wait on the next gacha or update involving something that can be exploited through buying and selling only.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Revamp the economy, have everyone turn in their gold for something and come up with a new currency.

    Some items cost like 40M ducats. What if NPC's sold items for that in gold or even for higher, that'd be a heck of a gold sink.

    We'll need suggestions of what kind of items can be bought with gold and maybe a tiered level pricing for them.
    Alshian wrote: »
    well the economy had already been damaged where it would take too long to attempt to repair it along with dealing with player backlash. As this game stands I wouldn't know how to bring it to it's grace state as it once was, Mabinogi as I know it died years ago and even if they manage to bring it back Mabinogi will hit rock bottom quick again.

    Although Id like more activity other than combat all the time, like new areas, lore to unearth, new dungeons to discover or maybe some new enemies born from the ashes of the destruction we bring and not JUST for dungeons bring more enemies to the fields.

    Make farms worthwhile, new ingredients used for cooking.
    Make Gardens a feature for potion making or Alchemy
    Make hunting fields for cooking or crafting
    Improve Commerce to have more use
    Remaster Synthesis and other construct Alchemy skills
    Remaster old clothing in NPC clothing shops
    Make Blueprints a one time use to learn forever
    Improve Catering skill to bypass stat cap from food buffs - they became sorta worthless lategame
    Make a Slayers Guild that handles info on when and where along with info for which channel

    Each town/village is dead besides 2 major hangouts (Dunbarton and Belvast) its time for a new content ingame event to be made how does "Invasion field quests" sound? The Mercenary outpost will handle which town/village would get hit by an Invasion of mobs for the players to defend and defeat enemy invasion leaders to end the invasion.

    At least these would make me it interesting for me but it is wishful thinking.

    All these suggestions need to be backed up where the player economy will have more reliance on each other for the market of goods and resources.

    A currency needs to be backed up by real values of the goods in the market produced by players. The current gold system does not have that, and its lack of regulation is the problem.
    pawcalypseAlshian
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    A currency needs to be backed up by real values of the goods in the market produced by players. The current gold system does not have that, and its lack of regulation is the problem.

    We left the gold standard in what 1970? Money doesn't have to represent anything. The lack of regulation is definitely a problem here though. That will take some creative thinking. In the mean time we already have two ideas to help with the situation:
    (1) increase the supply of desired goods,
    (2) create large desirable gold sinks.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi
    Mabinogi Rep: 660
    Posts: 22
    Member
    edited September 17, 2019
    I'd definitely like to see 4-leaf clovers get some changes.

    Make them stackable and to 20. Chance to gain clovers while harvesting any herb, with a higher chance based on herbalism (like 1% per skill level).

    A new synthesis recipe to dublicate them via holy water and arat crystals, 5-10 at a time.

    I'd also like to see leather and maybe cloths be duplicatable. Maybe 5 per instead of 10 like Ingots.

    And for the love of all that is holy. Fix Alchemy mastery. Either add the impossible requirements values into other non-mana crystal related requirements, or restore the ability to craft alchemy crystals, just for training purposes (you can still trade them in to Eabha for money, so it's not like it's a complete waste). Or at least give Eabha or Dorren a PTJ to make alchemy crystals that count for Making a Crystal without magic.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    A currency needs to be backed up by real values of the goods in the market produced by players. The current gold system does not have that, and its lack of regulation is the problem.

    We left the gold standard in what 1970? Money doesn't have to represent anything. The lack of regulation is definitely a problem here though. That will take some creative thinking. In the mean time we already have two ideas to help with the situation:
    (1) increase the supply of desired goods,
    (2) create large desirable gold sinks.

    To increase the supply of desired goods, and maintain their value, it is necessary for money to reflect the value of those goods, instead of being just a number people use to exchange for things.

    There are many ideas for gold sinks, but usually, they're floated ideas and no one really puts enough details into them, hoping that Nexon has someone reading. (That is why in my survey, I asked for more interaction from Nexon and the developers to these suggestions and feedback. Being engaged in conversation to improve the game should gain some trust with the player community).

    I put out the idea of having loans from the bank to curb the selling of gold by bots in another thread in the feedback section. I think it is important to curb these illegal transactions first, before managing supply and inflation of gold.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    edited September 17, 2019
    To increase the supply of desired goods, and maintain their value, it is necessary for money to reflect the value of those goods, instead of being just a number people use to exchange for things.

    It's these goods real value (definition included for the benefit of others, I know you know what it means) that has caused the problem in the first place. If your concern is that to increase their supply lowers the items real value which in turn lowers revenue for Nexon, then either let them have a grace period at the status quo. Better yet though, since what they are selling requires no hard resources or warehousing they can look into their elastisity of demand (same deal). I suspect here is a LOT of room for movement. In the end these items real value must come down. I suspect their optimal point on the demand curve would allow signifcantly more sales and by extention, total revenue.
    There are many ideas for gold sinks, but usually, they're floated ideas and no one really puts enough details into them, hoping that Nexon has someone reading. (That is why in my survey, I asked for more interaction from Nexon and the developers to these suggestions and feedback. Being engaged in conversation to improve the game should gain some trust with the player community).

    It's not too complicated. I have suggested selling say wings at many tens of millions of gold as some items are in the trading posts shops. @Greta came up with a very good idea of selling old gachapons for gold. There's nothing wrong, however, with more brainstorming about it.
    I put out the idea of having loans from the bank to curb the selling of gold by bots in another thread in the feedback section. I think it is important to curb these illegal transactions first, before managing supply and inflation of gold.

    Bank loans aren't going to work; it's too easy to cheat. That's why I suggested the pawn shop idea. As I described it, it's really no more than just selling stuff to NPCs for gold, but you have a means to get the stuff back.

    There's no reason not to do both the dealing with the money supply and goods supply. As for the illegal transactions, @Eralea has said that they think that botting for gold to sell for actual money is not that significant a problem. Given that the price of botted gold in USD has been static for more than ten years and that the add bots only seem to advertise one website for conducting the business, I'm inclinded to take them at their word.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    To increase the supply of desired goods, and maintain their value, it is necessary for money to reflect the value of those goods, instead of being just a number people use to exchange for things.

    It's these goods real value (definition included for the benefit of others, I know you know what it means) that has caused the problem in the first place. If your concern is that to increase their supply lowers the items real value which in turn lowers revenue for Nexon, then either let them have a grace period at the status quo. Better yet though, since what they are selling requires no hard resources or warehousing they can look into their elastisity of demand (same deal). I suspect here is a LOT of room for movement. In the end these items real value must come down. I suspect their optimal point on the demand curve would allow signifcantly more sales and by extention, total revenue.
    There are many ideas for gold sinks, but usually, they're floated ideas and no one really puts enough details into them, hoping that Nexon has someone reading. (That is why in my survey, I asked for more interaction from Nexon and the developers to these suggestions and feedback. Being engaged in conversation to improve the game should gain some trust with the player community).

    It's not too complicated. I have suggested selling say wings at many tens of millions of gold as some items are in the trading posts shops. @Greta came up with a very good idea of selling old gachapons for gold. There's nothing wrong, however, with more brainstorming about it.
    I put out the idea of having loans from the bank to curb the selling of gold by bots in another thread in the feedback section. I think it is important to curb these illegal transactions first, before managing supply and inflation of gold.

    Bank loans aren't going to work; it's too easy to cheat. That's why I suggested the pawn shop idea. As I described it, it's really no more than just selling stuff to NPCs for gold, but you have a means to get the stuff back.

    There's no reason not to do both the dealing with the money supply and goods supply. As for the illegal transactions, @Eralea has said that they think that botting for gold to sell for actual money is not that significant a problem. Given that the price of botted gold in USD has been static for more than ten years and that the add bots only seem to advertise one website for conducting the business, I'm inclinded to take them at their word.

    Well to further the pawn shop idea, I believe I said, rather than destroy the item as the penalty, it will get auctioned off after the grace period expires by the daily auction. That should help as a gold sink.

    If the number of times in a certain period where someone can borrow is enacted, it will prevent abuse of the system.

    I'll probably revise a draft back on the other thread later.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,990
    Posts: 3,276
    Member
    Well to further the pawn shop idea, I believe I said, rather than destroy the item as the penalty, it will get auctioned off after the grace period expires by the daily auction. That should help as a gold sink.

    If the number of times in a certain period where someone can borrow is enacted, it will prevent abuse of the system.

    I'll probably revise a draft back on the other thread later.

    The items can last longer based on their value. In the end I suggested destruction so that it doesn't turn into a landfill.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Well to further the pawn shop idea, I believe I said, rather than destroy the item as the penalty, it will get auctioned off after the grace period expires by the daily auction. That should help as a gold sink.

    If the number of times in a certain period where someone can borrow is enacted, it will prevent abuse of the system.

    I'll probably revise a draft back on the other thread later.

    The items can last longer based on their value. In the end I suggested destruction so that it doesn't turn into a landfill.

    Ok, if no one buys it off auction with 2 weeks, it will go to Ferghus' anvil.
  • pawcalypsepawcalypse
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,305
    Posts: 486
    Member
    This topic went from a survey to
    2f0.png
    Veylaine
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,800
    Posts: 7,512
    Member
    pawcalypse wrote: »
    This topic went from a survey to
    2f0.png

    Hey, we let the straw man be now, so there's that.
    pawcalypse