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About G24 Crom Dragon and now.

AlshianAlshian
Mabinogi Rep: 6,420
Posts: 1,142
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edited February 20 in General Chat
Boss is not what Id call this thing, Id call it trash.

Its combat design is subpar to try to justify challenge in a way of breaking the foundation of combat leaving you desync from buggy petrification, continued knockbacks, stunlocks, and of course the fight itself.

If they are going to make bosses complex they should have the boss be ALONE so that resources can be focused on the boss and not the other unneeded use of resources to render in the ever counting black moon followers. It will become a laggy mess when the fight presses on long enough.

I appreciate the devs trying something new but tone it down to the game's design or overhaul the hell out of it to match the complex you want to add. Game is OLD, very DATED, as well as damaged by ever increasing new mechanics that the game can barely handle by design.

Easy? Hard? That has been the debate for more coming generations, you give what the players want, then they complain again, you give them what they want again, and still they complain. Perhaps it comes down to how it became hard? Or how players said it was easy? Generation 1 is Mabinogi's foundation for what gave it form. It was a start to limitless potential and players had fun. There were no unneeded mechanics that left it tasteless and sour only with enchant but that was only ONE.

The game became "Be everything you want" to "Become this else you lose" in coming years. A new player who had done Generation 1 up to 12 ask how did I beat G21? My simple answer was gear. This left that person to saying "Oh." I feel for this guy, You don't even NEED gear at all, you can be anything ever since Generation 1 up to 12 but G15 was a start to something different. More and more, new challenges are coming, they were good for a time till suddenly G21. This had suddenly skyrocket in difficulty that left not so very geared players suddenly questioning as to what just happen? I guess this was when Nexon finally thought "Lets finally give them something challenging." But this is not "ENDGAME" or anything, so why change so drastically? Was G21 suppose to be an end to Mabinogi? With that lackluster transformation? Never mind that anymore lets talk about real issues here.

The freaking power creeping! It began ALL from the power creeping your giving players. Ever since the "Talents" feature was added in, an influx of players had suddenly BOOSTED in ability leaving something like old Generation 1 final dungeon to being a cakewalk when it was once known to being hell with a lot of floors. Now that dungeon was made less long (Thank god) but still the power creeping still exist. Now players complain the game was too easy, like very easy due to the complete power creeping. You than made the game ever increasing complex as to needing some specific gear, new skills like "shield mastery", "Mastery for light and heavy armors", and "Shine of Eweca". So now, the game became ridiculously easy to something like the Black dragon being the massive raid boss to being too easy now.

STOP POWERCREEPING AND START BALANCING! Either keep the game in its former glory while leaving the power hungry players to keep complaining about the game being too easy because they reached "Endgame" Level as an "OPTION" while players who chose not to do that can enjoy the game to its old way of being challenging. The things a player had done, Finding the "Best" gear, normal upgrading, Gem upgrading, Special upgrading, Enchanting, Reforging, Echostones, Totems, Talents, Grand Master, Pets, Rank EVERYTHING to Rank1, Urg upgrades, techniques, and spirit weapons. Might I add? Loads of those are behind RNG and never a steady adventure you can or may not ever reach the goal.

Will the list of powercreeping go on? Will there ever be re balancing? Or with everything in the list of powercreeping going to lead to a much tedious, unfun, bullcrap of an excuse of "challenge" because you gave players that power creep to Generation 25+?

This game is not ACTION combat, its Tab targeting semi auto combat with rails you can freely break free from at your own volition. Redesign combat as a whole or re balance your crap Nexon/Devcat!

PS: Still waiting on a viable quality of life for players who want life to return to the game, like crafting, Part time jobs, questing, Commerce, Exploration, etc.

PSS: God forsake RNG.
GretaBlissfulkillRadiant DawnLiberateDragoolfireCrimspawcalypseSherriFOXAssassincourtneyyand 4 others.

Comments

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,580
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    The issue I see is that the developers are trying to implement all these cool and shiny things we've seen in the last near two decades since the Pleione Engine for Mabinogi debuted. The engine for Mabinonogi isn't Unreal or Source, so they are trying to force mechanics that works best on those engines on Mabinogi's engine that wasn't intended to handle these things, because those game mechanics were not as prevalent or didn't even exist.

    I see this problem with a ton of older facilities. It is easier to build things from the ground up that includes the current and modern, but far harder to retrofit older facilities to handle new advances in technology. For example, UPS existed for decades before Fedex and Amazon, but those two companies are not burdened by the existence of outdated facilities that need to be redesigned for automation.

    Mabinogi here is much the same. It's an uphill battle to try to make it work on an engine where most of the folks who created it either moved on, retired, or even died, versus simply starting over to incorporate the changes they want to incorporate.

    As a result, the only viable way to handle these bosses and their bad mechanical implementation is to simply gear up as to trivialized how much they can do to the players, but this merely reduces the frustrating nature of a cheap boss that kills instantly to a weak but immortal mosquito asking for a pint of blood at 3 AM in the morning.

    Either go back to what works with Mabinogi, or create a new game with an engine built for more mobs than you can shake a fist at, and giant raid dragons. Let's be honest, most dragons in Mabinogi have garbage mechanics.
    AlshianFOXAssassinSollstarkiller1286
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 43,000
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    edited February 20
    I'm gonna repeat what i said in previous thread where OP also had troubles doing G21...

    I didn't ask for a challenge (and cancer). Make so when generation starts i get to choose difficulty i want to play at.

    Because some people QQ'ed saying it was no challenge doesn't mean the dev's HAD to suddenly make it more difficult.

    I see a weird pattern here: G19 was hard, players complained, then dev's probably were like: "OK let's make it less hard" and here G20 comes. It was much easier, but tryhard elistist's QQ'ed because of it, so dev's decided: "OK, make it harder again". G21 comes into play. It was cancer again lol. But G22-G23 were really easy and now G24 is hard as hell again. Why difficulties are so random Nexon?
    SherriAlshianFOXAssassincourtneyyRadiant DawnBlissfulkill
  • KitsuneanagiKitsuneanagi
    Mabinogi Rep: 850
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    Well g21 talvish fight was not as bad as g24 finale boss as a elf!!! Humans can solo if they maxed their stats and did g11+have gear related to final hit and lv 10 dampen shock...

    NOTE TO SELF: Do not solo g24 finale as an elf at 35k+ max out dampen shock and solo g24 boss without proper gear (saint guardian set Was enchanted but had some reforges) Died 55 times used that many guard stones and naostones and then 2nd fight got 3 people used 2 balloons and 2 guard stones I also used brionac for Balor and used dead pegasus summons to unpetrify myself yes it works!!!
    used bone dragons and mir on the portals too to weaken them

    My advice: Do not solo as an 35K elf and lv 10 dampen shock!!!
  • DragoolfireDragoolfire
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,015
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    I would just suggest not trying to solo to begin with, however I know people with complain hat there is no one around to help so I guess, just ignore me...
    KitsuneanagiBlissfulkillWolfsingerSherri
  • KitsuneanagiKitsuneanagi
    Mabinogi Rep: 850
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    I would just suggest not trying to solo to begin with, however I know people with complain hat there is no one around to help so I guess, just ignore me...

    I actually agree never ever solo it As a capped elf even at 35k ttl by any means and maxed out stats at ttl 35k all r1+ skills and decent gears (not reforged completely but hey I take advantage of events and make gold that way yes a free to play life is really hard to do its possible and events and echostone duengeons etc can help also with the gold profits...

    3 person party is what I did with g24 finale
    1 elf archer 1 human support
    I was an elf center (support/dps/debuffer)
    I have lv 10 dampen shock and still died 55 times when I tried to solo until the wiki said I can bring 4 people
    I almost raged until the wiki updated...

    Also liking that comment as a show that is actually the truth about g24 finale!!!
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    I like the introduction of a teamplay option. However, the teamplay element isn’t like Girgashiy or Glas so much that you have people performing different roles.

    It’s really just a DPS fest.

    I think that most bosses in Mabinogi should not be able to spam invulnerability moves like dragon meteor. It makes the move annoying, and not soul crushing terror that I imagine the developers want this move to be.

    I remember running for cover during the old days of Red Dragon to a nearby dugout stomped by a giant. That was terrifying. This...


    I mean, Girgashiy can only spam its meteor every 40 seconds. Why can’t we just limit the dragon here too?

    It’s strange how all the recent mechanically viable bosses like apostles and Avalon bosses are optional, whereas generation bosses are just a DPS fest with garbage mechanics.

    Like, what?

    I do appreciate the scale they were going for, what with the battle actually feeling like an actual battle, as our waifus and husbandos fight by our side in an epic final battle.

    It just isn’t working . They need to nerd mob summon numbers, and either change the dragon AI or change how dragons work.
    KitsuneanagiFOXAssassin
  • xDestructionxDestruction
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,195
    Posts: 30
    Member
    edited February 20
    This game is boring without a challenge. and building up to be able to dominate a challenge is one of the best feelings ive had on mabinogi. If things were a cake walk this game would be alot less fun. I know get its difficult, but you don't need every victory handed to you on a silver platter.
    Kitsuneanagi
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,190
    Posts: 846
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    edited February 20
    This game is boring without a challenge. and building up to be able to dominate a challenge is one of the best feelings ive had on mabinogi. If things were a cake walk this game would be alot less fun. I know get its difficult, but you don't need every victory handed to you on a silver platter.

    There's a difference between "challenging" and "bad mechanics".

    G24 Finale is the latter.

    Not to mention the game almost literally forces it on you once you hit 5000 by having meteors constantly whiz across the skies and crystals all over the place. And you don't even need to be level 5k to see either.
    I like the introduction of a teamplay option. However, the teamplay element isn’t like Girgashiy or Glas so much that you have people performing different roles.

    It’s really just a DPS fest.

    I think that most bosses in Mabinogi should not be able to spam invulnerability moves like dragon meteor. It makes the move annoying, and not soul crushing terror that I imagine the developers want this move to be.

    I remember running for cover during the old days of Red Dragon to a nearby dugout stomped by a giant. That was terrifying. This...


    I mean, Girgashiy can only spam its meteor every 40 seconds. Why can’t we just limit the dragon here too?

    It’s strange how all the recent mechanically viable bosses like apostles and Avalon bosses are optional, whereas generation bosses are just a DPS fest with garbage mechanics.

    Like, what?

    I do appreciate the scale they were going for, what with the battle actually feeling like an actual battle, as our waifus and husbandos fight by our side in an epic final battle.

    It just isn’t working . They need to nerd mob summon numbers, and either change the dragon AI or change how dragons work.

    And get rid of any obstacles that impair your ability to actually see anything (fire and the castle/garden walls, for instance)
    FOXAssassin
  • DragoolfireDragoolfire
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,015
    Posts: 437
    Member
    Honestly, I joined someones party, and while I was getting my butt bounced around and trying to walk through fire... some just completely murdered the dragon... I think. I did not see what happen. All of a sudden, the cut scene went to play but then even that disappeared... I have no idea what happened. Of course that was the third try. First time I just took a peak as to whats what. Second time two people crashed and I was left alone getting bounced around by a big smelly lizard. So imo it was cake walk... Lesson is: if you don't have to solo something, don't.
  • EvielickyEvielicky
    Mabinogi Rep: 640
    Posts: 13
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    i solo'd it because i dnt have any friends and no one seemed to be doing it during tht time. wasnt all that bad just alot of stuns and flying around.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,190
    Posts: 846
    Member
    I like the introduction of a teamplay option. However, the teamplay element isn’t like Girgashiy or Glas so much that you have people performing different roles.

    It’s really just a DPS fest.

    I think that most bosses in Mabinogi should not be able to spam invulnerability moves like dragon meteor. It makes the move annoying, and not soul crushing terror that I imagine the developers want this move to be.

    I remember running for cover during the old days of Red Dragon to a nearby dugout stomped by a giant. That was terrifying. This...


    I mean, Girgashiy can only spam its meteor every 40 seconds. Why can’t we just limit the dragon here too?

    It’s strange how all the recent mechanically viable bosses like apostles and Avalon bosses are optional, whereas generation bosses are just a DPS fest with garbage mechanics.

    Like, what?

    I do appreciate the scale they were going for, what with the battle actually feeling like an actual battle, as our waifus and husbandos fight by our side in an epic final battle.

    It just isn’t working . They need to nerd mob summon numbers, and either change the dragon AI or change how dragons work.

    And get rid of any obstacles that impair your ability to actually see anything (fire and the castle/garden walls, for instance)
    Honestly, I joined someones party, and while I was getting my butt bounced around and trying to walk through fire... some just completely murdered the dragon... I think. I did not see what happen. All of a sudden, the cut scene went to play but then even that disappeared... I have no idea what happened. Of course that was the third try. First time I just took a peak as to whats what. Second time two people crashed and I was left alone getting bounced around by a big smelly lizard. So imo it was cake walk... Lesson is: if you don't have to solo something, don't.

    Cutscene ended early for me, too.

    First time I tried solo, and after a minute, I saw its HP at 90%, without me even attacking it, so I thought it would be easy.

    Turned out to be really annoying.
    FOXAssassin
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,420
    Posts: 1,142
    Member
    I am having mixed feelings that Mabinogi lasted to this point than I originally thought, because this kind of game is very rare, old but rare. 2018 is when I thought the game will shutdown when it gave hints, literal hints that perhaps this game gained enough money to shutdown since the money is not going to Mabinogi's complete overhaul or for the fact those ugly quality outfits/armor had been the same since Day one of launch in NPC shops. Maybe changing visuals of those outfits/armor is a lot to ask for but could they at least given clarification
    This game is boring without a challenge. and building up to be able to dominate a challenge is one of the best feelings ive had on mabinogi. If things were a cake walk this game would be alot less fun. I know get its difficult, but you don't need every victory handed to you on a silver platter.

    Not saying to make Mabinogi easy or am I saying to make it hard, I just want it re balanced. Just like what PlatinaKoki said, there is a difference to challenging from bad mechanics as well as design that do not fit with the game. They can keep Tech duin or everything not related to Generation quests "Difficult" if you can call it that. Just leave Generation quests to be a story telling with re balanced difficulty and not something that forces ya to do the optional things that made this game too easy.
    FOXAssassinPlatinaKokiGretaRadiant Dawn
  • SqueeSquee
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,315
    Posts: 165
    Member
    I thought G18 was where this game should have ended. They could have ended it there and it would have been fine. Pretty much everything had been done, and the game ended mostly with what it began with: The Fate of the Three Heroes (Mostly this time it's just Ruairi and Tarlach).

    But yeah... G19 onward (G20 excluded mostly) has been nothing but poor design, and artificial difficulty. I feel like I don't need to go on this rant again because I think you guys more or less covered most of what I usually say in conversations like this. So let me just end with: I agree this game needs some rebalancing. And Nexon and Devcat need to go back to game development school or something. Because this kind of unfair stuff is not fun. I'm not even really playing the game anymore beyond logging in for events because I hate what's left and I don't want to do G24 at all. I didn't want to do G23, but I forced myself. The story is fine, but the fights being really unfair was pretty bad. Every now and then I have fun, but mostly, it's just masochistic to play this.
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,675
    Posts: 118
    Member
    The difficulty spike in the recent gens are an attempt at making the game look attractive to new players and old alike, but in terms of practice, it fails.

    I had a lot more trouble than I should have simply because of the constant mob-aggroing, stunlock-friendly designed missions. Getting thundered by ceth just after a geata lazer.... being targeted not even one second after reviving with a balloon and dying immediately again....

    I feel g21 was a cakewalk compared to what we got in g24. I haven't even finished g24 finale yet but just from a peek at it I can tell it isn't going to be much fun. Not to mention the lag, god. At least G19-21 have the benefit of proper mechanics set in place do deal with girgashiy+apostles. This is just meant to make you take it, tank it, and perhaps spend money on nao stones just to keep going.

    Fact is, Mabinogi is going to reach its 20 years soon.

    We have no inkling that the game is going to get better, or even that the devs hear our concerns.

    The topics have been discussed here at length already, but nothing ever changes, if it doesn't outright become worse.

    Remember when the Abyss Dragon armor first came in gacha? People (me included) complained about the shafting of crafting in favor of p2w.

    Since then, four more OP sets came out from, guess what, gachapon again. Veteran dungeons came out, which was just one more patch with some shiny new things; uncraftable (comprehensive recovery), new (new gems), but also all RNG. And extreme mob sponge syndrome, as i call it.

    Devs prefer to keep adding new stuff, whether it works or not, rather than re-balancing or giving the game new life. Comprehensive pots? Healing skill? Cleric talent? Blacksmithing? Enchants? Gathering materials for your homestead? Appearance options?

    It all comes down to gachapon, DPS, and power gating content. Fantasy life? These gens don't care.
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,420
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    edited February 23
    To be honest tho Crafted White/Black dragon armor with high rolls are better than Abyss dragon but not saint guardians xD

    Although Abyss horns no matter how small, give a decent attack delay reduction. I never really bothered with how Saint guardians special effect but one of the pieces or as a set effect gives a chance to turn all Damage into 1. Similar to Milla's explore outfit.

    I am still blaming the powercreep, else the game would not be "Too Easy" to the eyes of players telling nexon to make it harder when Nexon should of had fixed the powercreep instead. Now we have this mess.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,990
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    Re-doing everything into a comparable «unique» game would take up a significant amount of work and man-power. Even a text-based multi-player MUD/game still needs around 20+ active staff-members to be able to handle regular updates and an active player-base. You certainly could do it if you had the ambition and were able to rally up enough other people who were also ambitious enough, with the skills and willingness to put forth the time/effort/work towards building such a project. And the «game-creating tools» now exist out there in semi-abundance.

    Who knows, with enough co-ordination & good leader-ship, perhaps a group of community members might just «branch off» and go on to create their own «successful» game-variation, like the former members/developers of the Clandestine-MUD once did (they «branched off» from LUN [Land of the Lost Unicorn] as they did not believe that their «vision» could become a reality on LUN and so they created their own game... with the advantage of having at least two or three people who knew how to code things and were actually good with their coding skills; good enough to where they'd literally implement new ideas that I came up with each week usually within the week as I provided feedback about the classes and class-balance whilst I was a newbie).

    If you are a «whale-tier» type who's willing to «invest» into potential «talent» there are such things as e-lance (a play on the «free-lance» word) services (example here) where «inexpensive labour» can be hired from all over the world, whether they come from India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Estonia (the «best» coders I've seen/witnessed seem to come mostly out of this country for some reason), Ukraine (mind the potential language-barrier), some of whom would be more-than-happy to work full-time and offering their coding skills for only a few hundred $US/month (more-than-covers all of their monthly expenses in some countries).

    I would personally be down to participate in such a project but not just yet at this time in my life... I first need to move away from the middle of nowhere.
  • AlshianAlshian
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    I just hope they don't turn out to be Nexon 2.0 and to learn that players are not always right as well as knowing what to fix from player feedback.

    Also hope instead of players just saying "This game is trash or stupid" like idiots and actually give a pointer of why they say this so that the game devs can improve on.
  • SqueeSquee
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,315
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    I think the main problem is that the devs don't care whether we like what is in the game or not as long as they're making money. The only way we're gonna get through to them is to not pay money on their games, and that's the only time they're gonna truly do anything about all the issues is when we all stop refusing to pay money to a game with issues. However, the problem with that is that they may just can the game if it isn't making enough money, so we'd have to make it clear to Nexon why we're not paying, and it would likely take a community wide effort.
  • AlshianAlshian
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    Sadly Nexon NA can't do anything about that as for the big bois are at KR, they would listen to KR players than NA since NA is too small to care about.

    Base of operations would only care about the base than the outposts.

    So yea at this point, spend your money to keep the game around longer or stop giving money to lose the game. Our only options. NA is not the base of operations, KR is. So unless you can somehow get KR players to believe our cause as well then maybe the action will be taken but this is too slim to really care about doing.
  • kirbystarkirbystar
    Mabinogi Rep: 715
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    edited February 23
    J0Uw38T.png


    Took almost a minute to take proper screenshot as Cromm kept running away.