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Repeal the dungeon revamp

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  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,665
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    Greta wrote: »
    Biggest mistakes they have made here during Dungeon Renewal: ...
    5. Made monsters more powerful and gave them more HP, but they are still "weakest". For some reason they didn't actually give them bigger CP. Now it's ridiculous to watch when players are getting wrecked by "weak" or "strong" monsters more than from "awful" ones in Elite Shadow Missions.

    I agree with you on your fifth point. It's kind of annoying to walk into a dungeon that's ranked as being on your level, only for most or all of the enemies to be ranked as "Weak" or "Weakest" (making them totally useless for ranking CP-dependent skills like Windmill or Sakura Abyss in spite of them spawning in appropriate numbers to get some good multi-hits in, as well as reducing the exp. per kill that you get) and either get slaughtered by enemies that--were they on the overworld--would usually be no problem or at least having to throw down a lot more hits on something that you'd usually one-shot. Not saying that they should nerf the enemies (that would be lame), just that they should adjust the CP ratings on dungeon mobs to match their buffed state. They have no problem putting the proper strength ratings on Shadow Mission enemies, after all...or is that a whole different set of code or something?

    Either way, the CP ratings need to be adjusted to the proper levels.
  • BlortadBlortad
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,180
    Posts: 250
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    Pepper wrote: »
    Pepper wrote: »
    Erm...didn't the revamp happen because of the people complaining that the dungeons were too easy? Yes, it could have been handled better as with most things, but no company is perfect. I don't mind the changes in all honesty, though I can see how it makes things a lot harder for lower-level players.

    (P-please don't bite my head off :s )
    Then the weaker players should be going with the stronger players like it used to be. And you might actually need help with something instead of everyone doing everything as solo cause its so easy, Its nice to run dungeons with people that don take 2 minutes to run through. And the stronger players shouldn t be looking down on the weaker players or players that don t do so well. Maybe a big reminder of you wern t as good as you are now either without help from someone when you started.


    I'm a sort of mid-tier player. My damage is enough to hold my own as needed, but I accept when I need someone's help. I do agree with you though, Pepper. People tend to forget that they were once in the weaker player's shoes (which is why I try to look out for weaker players whenever I run with them, like knocking a mob away if the other person is taking too much aggro/damage).

    Good for you we need more players like you and less of the conceited players that think there all that. And I should let you know that I m a 27k plyer with cp of 4.7 Who has all rk 1 skills and 4 grandmasters to date. I wouild run a new players level in a heartbeat if they needed help

    Agreed, not getting new players that stay for more then a month before quitting is a huge problem for any mmo that eventually leads to collapse, RIP Grand Chase. :( I always try to help out when I have time, and when I dont, I try to tailor my advice for newbies to a weaker character, like what one of my ~1k total lvl alts would have to do to clear a given thing or how I remember it from way back when if possible.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 30,415
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    I'd like it to change back to 8 people.
    The problem is do people find that many people to utilize dungeoning these days. I'm sure there are, but how many?
    4 people max party is too little people, kinda defeats the purpose of people banding and mingling together which is the point of the game.
    CICILIA
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,665
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    Pepper wrote: »
    Erm...didn't the revamp happen because of the people complaining that the dungeons were too easy? Yes, it could have been handled better as with most things, but no company is perfect. I don't mind the changes in all honesty, though I can see how it makes things a lot harder for lower-level players.

    (P-please don't bite my head off :s )
    Then the weaker players should be going with the stronger players like it used to be. And you might actually need help with something instead of everyone doing everything as solo cause its so easy, Its nice to run dungeons with people that don take 2 minutes to run through. And the stronger players shouldn't be looking down on the weaker players or players that don t do so well. Maybe a big reminder of you weren't as good as you are now either without help from someone when you started.

    So I get the whole altruism and helping others thing... but yeah why would they? If a weaker player is running a dungeon that is to hard for them while simultaneously being a waste of the stronger player's time then you pretty much have to rely on a stronger player always being a) free, b) willing to help for essentially nothing, and c) being aware that the weaker player needs help. Sure you'll occasionally get players like that but you probably shouldn't expect it unless you add in some incentive.
    Blortad wrote: »
    I love how every time someone brings up the buffs to the mobs stats they always leave out damage. They didn't JUST buff defensive stats, they buffed offense too. Every single boss of every dungeon that wasn't peaca or some adv hm thing hit me for nothing but 1's before the revamp, now the bosses actually hurt me. Since they did, in fact, get damage buffs too, saying the new dungeons are more boring then the old ones due to the increased monster hp is like saying elite shadow missions are more boring then basic or int shadow missions because the mobs "just have more defenses". When you do the revamped dungeons, you are fighting stronger versions of the same monsters just like you would be going into an elite shadow mission. All that sounds like to me is that you either want nothing but easy wins all day long, or you just don't even want to play the game at all.

    So this one bugged me too so I thought I'd point out why everyone focuses on the defensive stats rather than the damage. It is mostly because mobs are still susceptible to the same aggro prevention/stun lock moves that we have now but require more damage to take down, which means hitting them more, which means draining away more durability and time to accomplish the same thing. Considering that dungeons are already a tedium of 'go to this room, open the chest, defeat the mob of enemies, go to next identical room, open identical chest, defeat mob of identical or near identical enemies, rinse until done' making this take longer makes them incredibly boring if you are doing it without a party. Plus it is still the basic AI so unless you are new to the game you've probably got the old dungeons down pretty well. Personally I only tend to find the last half of the last floor of Rundal HM engaging when soloing, everything else is just annoying filler.



    As for dungeons as a whole the revamp did some things well but didn't do near enough, and ultimately too much of it was aimed at end game dungeon grinders which made it fail to make dungeons more mainstream. Dungeons are still just plain inconvenient, they take a far larger amount of time and durability investment than other content and many times harder dungeons runs aren't even worth it unless you are spamming because you wind up with the same rewards as doing a basic one. Since most of the good rewards are mats it is only useful to high level players looking to make end game gear... which okay there should be a market for that but that doesn't make them mainstream. The result is kind of the same as when celtics first got released, you see a small community of dedicated dungeon runners while most players will run if a pass drops into their lap but otherwise sticks to content that is easier to access and more rewarding in the short term.

    I guess this is fine if that's what you want from dungeons, but it also makes it vividly apparent how superfluous every dungeon under adv hm is. Since all the best prizes for those end game gears are in the higher dungeons the lower ones exist solely to act as a pointless escalator, a chore you do in hopes of quickly snagging the actual prize of the content you wanted to do in the first place. Aside from a few preexisting drops like skill books there is no reason to run them, and even then you made them far more difficult to spam for the lower level players who probably need those items because... well why not?

    If I'm being honest with you while I think removing and adding things to the dungeon prize pools as well as balancing difficulty a bit better would have helped to make dungeons more accessible to a wider audience all I really want from them is to be able to buy the pass I want and enter the dungeon I want with no muss or fuss. I understand this is an MMO but not everything has to be an insultingly transparent time sink for the sole purpose of making sure I'm logged in more. I'd run dungeons a LOT more if I didn't have to do busywork just to get in.
    CICILIA
  • AgentJeanAgentJean
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,230
    Posts: 198
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    edited July 21, 2017
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!
  • HinotamaHinotama
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,420
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    I'm sure if you were able to do a dungeon with 8 people, you can do a dungeon with 4 people. Like I said before, there is no need to go and make things too easy again. It is fine the way it is.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 30,415
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    Hinotama wrote: »
    I'm sure if you were able to do a dungeon with 8 people, you can do a dungeon with 4 people. Like I said before, there is no need to go and make things too easy again. It is fine the way it is.

    What makes you say that?
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
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    My non-FH equipment I am forced to wear due to an acute lack of FH cries every time I run one of them. I'd honestly rather have an actual fun dungeon update than this slugfest. but people like it, so it's not going to happen.
  • dra011dra011
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,900
    Posts: 130
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    edited July 21, 2017
    Hinotama wrote: »
    I'm sure if you were able to do a dungeon with 8 people, you can do a dungeon with 4 people. Like I said before, there is no need to go and make things too easy again. It is fine the way it is.

    I'm sorry what please re read what you said because it's very faulty logic some one did a dungeon with 8 people means they can do it with 4 um no it doesn't strength in numbers and all that jazz maybe those people found the dungeon too hard with less then 8 people thus they needed 8 to do it just because you can do it with a party of 4 doesn't mean everyone can believe it or not some people don't have all the skills in the game or good armour or weapons or the oh so lovely pets that make things so easy for us most of the time.

    Honestly when this dungeon revamp came out i didn't really think much of it but now it must be a pain as a newbie to have to do some of these dungeons for the story quests.
    The problem with the dungeon revamp i feel it caters a little too much to mid/endgame players and in doing so makes newer plays feel a little unwelcome (condescending older players don't help much in that regard also but hey oh can't change people) they try to do say barri dungeon get beat near the boss room or at the boss room grind a bit come back and still get stomped ask others for help nope no one wants to so they grind a bit more try again and stomped again then they get disheartened and stop playing i have seen this or at least something like this happen a lot as of late.
    ZeoTairikuCICILIA
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,665
    Posts: 312
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    AgentJean wrote: »
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!

    I'm a new player, and these dungeons certainly didn't chase me away. I mean, sure, you end up running Albey and Ciar for your first several hundred levels since they're the only ones you can handle without being eaten alive by the mobs, but it gives you something to work toward. I was super happy when my main was finally strong enough to solo Math normal, it was a huge milestone...even more so than when I was able to finally beat the heavy and light gargoyles in the G1 green gem dungeon. It showed how far I'd come since I started and how much my character had grown. I wouldn't want the dungeons nerfed, even if it would make questing for Blaze, Ice Spear, Fireball, and Thunder slightly easier. It makes beating the next strongest dungeon for the first time that much more thrilling, and finishing those skill quests that end with "Finish X Dungeon" or require you to obtain an item that only drops from an enemy in a tough dungeon that much more satisfying to complete solo (though, I admit, I bought that one Thunder book page that you need to get from a boss from a dungeon I'm not tough enough for yet from someone else, but I did earn the gold I used to buy it). Maybe it's just because I'm an old lady who grew up with older, harder games like the Genesis "Sonic" games, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star II, Final Fantasy VII, and such, but the current difficulty level of the dungeons is just right to me.
    KokoroPolicroma
  • HinotamaHinotama
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,420
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    edited July 21, 2017
    dra011 wrote: »
    Hinotama wrote: »
    I'm sure if you were able to do a dungeon with 8 people, you can do a dungeon with 4 people. Like I said before, there is no need to go and make things too easy again. It is fine the way it is.

    I'm sorry what please re read what you said because it's very faulty logic some one did a dungeon with 8 people means they can do it with 4 um no it doesn't strength in numbers and all that jazz maybe those people found the dungeon too hard with less then 8 people thus they needed 8 to do it just because you can do it with a party of 4 doesn't mean everyone can believe it or not some people don't have all the skills in the game or good armour or weapons or the oh so lovely pets that make things so easy for us most of the time.

    Honestly when this dungeon revamp came out i didn't really think much of it but now it must be a pain as a newbie to have to do some of these dungeons for the story quests.
    The problem with the dungeon revamp i feel it caters a little too much to mid/endgame players and in doing so makes newer plays feel a little unwelcome (condescending older players don't help much in that regard also but hey oh can't change people) they try to do say barri dungeon get beat near the boss room or at the boss room grind a bit come back and still get stomped ask others for help nope no one wants to so they grind a bit more try again and stomped again then they get disheartened and stop playing i have seen this or at least something like this happen a lot as of late.

    Don't assume that a few high level people won't help someone that is low leveled means that all high levels won't help low levels. It doesn't hurt to try something and be able to do it on your own. If you can't do it, then sure ask for help. Most of these new players that join end up quitting no matter what, even after helping them so it ends up feeling pointless to help someone new.
  • dra011dra011
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,900
    Posts: 130
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    edited July 21, 2017
    AgentJean wrote: »
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!

    I'm a new player, and these dungeons certainly didn't chase me away. I mean, sure, you end up running Albey and Ciar for your first several hundred levels since they're the only ones you can handle without being eaten alive by the mobs, but it gives you something to work toward. I was super happy when my main was finally strong enough to solo Math normal, it was a huge milestone...even more so than when I was able to finally beat the heavy and light gargoyles in the G1 green gem dungeon. It showed how far I'd come since I started and how much my character had grown. I wouldn't want the dungeons nerfed, even if it would make questing for Blaze, Ice Spear, Fireball, and Thunder slightly easier. It makes beating the next strongest dungeon for the first time that much more thrilling, and finishing those skill quests that end with "Finish X Dungeon" or require you to obtain an item that only drops from an enemy in a tough dungeon that much more satisfying to complete solo (though, I admit, I bought that one Thunder book page that you need to get from a boss from a dungeon I'm not tough enough for yet from someone else, but I did earn the gold I used to buy it). Maybe it's just because I'm an old lady who grew up with older, harder games like the Genesis "Sonic" games, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star II, Final Fantasy VII, and such, but the current difficulty level of the dungeons is just right to me.

    Not everyone has that mind set thought not everyone can push foreword and work towards something so most new players will leave when it gets too hard for them unfortunately.
    Also thunder ice spear and fireball pages can all be gotten from basic Ghost of Partholon tara shadow mission after killing everything in a room sometimes mimic books will spawn the real books can have all the pages of ice spear fireball and thunder and will give you one of the pages at random.
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,665
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    edited July 21, 2017
    dra011 wrote: »
    Not everyone has that mind set thought not everyone can push foreword and work towards something so most new players will leave when it gets too hard for them unfortunately.

    But pushing forward and getting strong and skilled enough to face the next challenge is what RPG videogames have been all about since the days of Dragon Warrior/Quest, the first Final Fantasy, and Zelda on the NES. It's a whole genre about patience, persistence, strategy, and perseverance. RPG's aren't meant to just slide you instant gratification and let you get to the highest heights with no trials, tribulations, or grinding. If you can't handle that, RPG's aren't your thing.
    dra011 wrote: »
    Also thunder ice spear and fireball pages can all be gotten from basic Ghost of Partholon tara shadow mission after killing everything in a room sometimes mimic books will spawn the real books can have all the pages of ice spear fireball and thunder and will give you one of the pages at random.

    Hm, then that means either the Wiki's info on those items must be incomplete or out of date, or things may have changed since you did these missions, since it says the only Thunder page it says that mission drops is the third one, none of the Fireball pages are found there, and only the first Ice Spear page is found there. Either way, I'll have to check it out myself sometime.
  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 22,335
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    edited July 21, 2017

    Hm, then that means either the Wiki's info on those items must be incomplete or out of date, or things may have changed since you did these missions, since it says the only Thunder page it says that mission drops is the third one, none of the Fireball pages are found there, and only the first Ice Spear page is found there. Either way, I'll have to check it out myself sometime.

    http://wiki.mabi.world/view/Ancient_Books#Strange_Book

    Also on the pages for Ice Spear and Fireball it mentions that you can get all the pages from the strange books.
    It's not in their tables, it's like a sort of footnote under Ice Spear's page table, and above Fireball's page table.


    On the topic of page gathering, one of my least favorite parts of the dungeon revamps is gathering a select few pages for Arrow Revolver.

    Pages 5 and 9 became really dumb to get.

    To get 5 you have to do Fiodh Intermediate.
    This page drops from "Burgundy Grizzly Bear".

    There's approximatly 3 or 4 of them per run.

    And Fiodh's mobs got a big ol' buff to their HP for this.

    And Page 9 became way worse.
    It drops from the boss-version of the Small Golem (Moss), only found when opening the boss door of Fiodh Intermediate alone.

    So this either means trudging through all the buffed up Fiodh Intermediate dungeon yourself, or getting some helpers to come with you and then tell them to exit the dungeon so you can open the boss door alone and get the proper boss.
    Luckily the helpers can make use of the dungeon reconnect feature to log off, let you open the boss door, and then log back in before the boss is defeated. But that's a hassle itself.

    I wish the page drop rates for those two were higher.
    Fiodh Int is so lame to run.
    DanievictriaKensamaofmariZeo
  • dra011dra011
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,900
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    Hinotama wrote: »
    dra011 wrote: »
    Hinotama wrote: »
    I'm sure if you were able to do a dungeon with 8 people, you can do a dungeon with 4 people. Like I said before, there is no need to go and make things too easy again. It is fine the way it is.

    I'm sorry what please re read what you said because it's very faulty logic some one did a dungeon with 8 people means they can do it with 4 um no it doesn't strength in numbers and all that jazz maybe those people found the dungeon too hard with less then 8 people thus they needed 8 to do it just because you can do it with a party of 4 doesn't mean everyone can believe it or not some people don't have all the skills in the game or good armour or weapons or the oh so lovely pets that make things so easy for us most of the time.

    Honestly when this dungeon revamp came out i didn't really think much of it but now it must be a pain as a newbie to have to do some of these dungeons for the story quests.
    The problem with the dungeon revamp i feel it caters a little too much to mid/endgame players and in doing so makes newer plays feel a little unwelcome (condescending older players don't help much in that regard also but hey oh can't change people) they try to do say barri dungeon get beat near the boss room or at the boss room grind a bit come back and still get stomped ask others for help nope no one wants to so they grind a bit more try again and stomped again then they get disheartened and stop playing i have seen this or at least something like this happen a lot as of late.

    Don't assume that a few high level people won't help someone that is low leveled means that all high levels won't help low levels. It doesn't hurt to try something and be able to do it on your own. If you can't do it, then sure ask for help. Most of these new players that join end up quitting no matter what, even after helping them so it ends up feeling pointless to help someone new.

    Ok first point: i know there are a lot of us old players that will help new players but that doesn't change the fact a good percent of older players just don't want to help them despite not doing anything and this may make a new player hesitate to ask for help as they may assume they won't get it.

    second point: it doesn't hurt trying something on your own yes you are right however it can be very disheartening and make you no longer want to do it when you do it over and over and still fail every time even after days of grinding and getting stronger.

    third point: sorry but really in the end people quit it happens so what that doesn't mean you shouldn't help them not everyone will stay on mabi for years so let me ask you if you help a newbie they stays for year then quits do you still feel it's pointless that you helped them? no matter how you spin this last point it's not a good reason for not helping new players as almost everyone "quits" at some point and hell they may not have even quit they could be busy with work/school/other life things and could come back later.

    Kensamaofmari
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,665
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    Iyasenu wrote: »

    Hm, then that means either the Wiki's info on those items must be incomplete or out of date, or things may have changed since you did these missions, since it says the only Thunder page it says that mission drops is the third one, none of the Fireball pages are found there, and only the first Ice Spear page is found there. Either way, I'll have to check it out myself sometime.

    http://wiki.mabi.world/view/Ancient_Books#Strange_Book

    Also on the pages for Ice Spear and Fireball it mentions that you can get all the pages from the strange books.
    It's not in their tables, it's like a sort of footnote under Ice Spear's page table, and above Fireball's page table.

    Ah. I just went directly to the tables, since organized tables catch my eye much more easily when I'm looking up game info while playing. It's an old habit from all of those game manuals back in the day...when game companies actually bothered putting manuals in with their physical releases...*grumbles over paying $60 for Sims 4 in box and not getting a manual like an old person grumbling over how none of the new bands holds a candle to The Who*
    ObsimLiyeta
  • dra011dra011
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,900
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    dra011 wrote: »
    Not everyone has that mind set thought not everyone can push foreword and work towards something so most new players will leave when it gets too hard for them unfortunately.

    But pushing forward and getting strong and skilled enough to face the next challenge is what RPG videogames have been all about since the days of Dragon Warrior/Quest, the first Final Fantasy, and Zelda on the NES. It's a whole genre about patience, persistence, strategy, and perseverance. RPG's aren't meant to just slide you instant gratification and let you get to the highest heights with no trials, tribulations, or grinding. If you can't handle that, RPG's aren't your thing.
    dra011 wrote: »
    Also thunder ice spear and fireball pages can all be gotten from basic Ghost of Partholon tara shadow mission after killing everything in a room sometimes mimic books will spawn the real books can have all the pages of ice spear fireball and thunder and will give you one of the pages at random.

    Hm, then that means either the Wiki's info on those items must be incomplete or out of date, or things may have changed since you did these missions, since it says the only Thunder page it says that mission drops is the third one, none of the Fireball pages are found there, and only the first Ice Spear page is found there. Either way, I'll have to check it out myself sometime.

    yes i know what rpg's are about they are more or less all i play however if you look at the mabi advertisements for NA(the most recent one mostly) it's not really shown like that it puts more the look at all this cool stuff you could do despite most of it not really being done often if at all and people come here thinking oh we can do all those cool things then boom grind heavy mmorpg granted a lot of people will do research first but some (mostly the younger players) don't and then they start playing and get disappointed and leave or will try to grind and give up.
    Also yes it may not be right as i did all my mage stuff like a year or two ago but shadow missions haven't change at all that i remember so it should still be right.
    Danievictria
  • RheyRhey
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    Rpg games is more or less about the journey. The trauma u received = the more memorable it is. I.E.( r1 enchant back in g3 vs r1 enchant now with pots/seals/apCheeze.)
    Danievictria
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,665
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    AgentJean wrote: »
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!

    I'm a new player, and these dungeons certainly didn't chase me away. I mean, sure, you end up running Albey and Ciar for your first several hundred levels since they're the only ones you can handle without being eaten alive by the mobs, but it gives you something to work toward. I was super happy when my main was finally strong enough to solo Math normal, it was a huge milestone...even more so than when I was able to finally beat the heavy and light gargoyles in the G1 green gem dungeon. It showed how far I'd come since I started and how much my character had grown. I wouldn't want the dungeons nerfed, even if it would make questing for Blaze, Ice Spear, Fireball, and Thunder slightly easier. It makes beating the next strongest dungeon for the first time that much more thrilling, and finishing those skill quests that end with "Finish X Dungeon" or require you to obtain an item that only drops from an enemy in a tough dungeon that much more satisfying to complete solo (though, I admit, I bought that one Thunder book page that you need to get from a boss from a dungeon I'm not tough enough for yet from someone else, but I did earn the gold I used to buy it). Maybe it's just because I'm an old lady who grew up with older, harder games like the Genesis "Sonic" games, Streets of Rage, Phantasy Star II, Final Fantasy VII, and such, but the current difficulty level of the dungeons is just right to me.

    G1 dungeons and other story dungeons weren't buffed with the dungeon revamp, so those gargs are the same as they've always been... or actually they were nerfed a bit from what they originally were. Also I think the problem is largely that there is no benefit for low level players running dungeons, the prizes suck for the amount of work you need to do and player's tend to complain about how much durability they lose. Spending an hour running a difficult dungeon that kills your equips only to get an old shield and some white powder is probably annoying, and definitely impractical when compared to other available content. Sure if you want to do it for the sake of doing it then it might work as a milestone, but dungeons were meant to be spammable content and very few will give you anything worthwhile just for beating it once or twice.

    Not that I think repealing it is the right choice, but I think a difficulty/prize rework is in order.
    Danievictria
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
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    edited July 21, 2017
    dra011 wrote: »
    yes i know what rpg's are about they are more or less all i play however if you look at the mabi advertisements for NA(the most recent one mostly) it's not really shown like that it puts more the look at all this cool stuff you could do despite most of it not really being done often if at all and people come here thinking oh we can do all those cool things then boom grind heavy mmorpg granted a lot of people will do research first but some (mostly the younger players) don't and then they start playing and get disappointed and leave or will try to grind and give up.

    That sounds more like a problem with Nexon's advertising department than the game itself. They're trying to draw in more players looking for a game that provides a good adventure and is easy to advance through, when what they have is a game that provides a challenging adventure that requires many gameplay hours to advance. They need to fix their marketing strategy, not nerf the dungeons. Maybe buy some add spots on YouTube before/during/after Dark Souls and Mega Man Let's Play videos. There are a lot of gamers looking for tough-but-compelling games these days and/or are burnt out from or disappointed with your typical "theme park MMO", and Mabinogi fits the needs of such gamers pretty well. Nexon needs to reach out to that audience: The same people who complain that modern games are too easy, the same people who say that "theme park MMO's" are nothing but a race to max level followed by an endless gear treadmill and they're sick of it, the same people who are flocking to games like the Dark Souls series and Bloodborne and indie games that recapture the feel of those old 8-bit and 16-bit games that were hard as heck but so much fun you kept coming back for more...That's the audience whose attention and imaginations they should be trying to capture.

    Poor marketing can sink anything, from games to T.V. shows to movies. As an example, you may remember a little Don Bluth film called Titan A.E.. It was a great movie by a man whose work was a big part of the childhood of many of us who grew up during the late 80's and 90's. However, it was an animated film that was rated PG-13, and Fox did not have any idea how to advertise it to the right audience...so they barely advertised it at all. As a result, the film did poorly at the box office. There was nothing wrong with the film itself, 'twas bad marketing killed the beast. So, if there's anything that's killing Mabi, from what you're saying, then it's bad marketing, not challenging gameplay.