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Cross-server content

BlortadBlortad
Mabinogi Rep: 2,490
Posts: 251
Member
edited September 26, 2018 in Feedback and Suggestions
Would it be possible to do cross-server content? We can already add friends from other servers, so would it be possible to have a means to invite people from another server to a party for instanced content like dungeons and shadow missions? That way there doesn't have to be any massively costly adjustments made to accommodate a server merge. Maybe there could be a cross-server channel for people who want to try doing cross-server field bosses. This would completely eliminate the problem of Ancient and field boss monsters being killed too quickly, the problem of name overlap, the problem of transfer of bank, dressing room, and pet data, and even the seemingly impossible problem of guild names and stone placement, but it still allows for a good solution to the problem at hand in that low population servers have trouble getting some things done. It could even be as simple as having a single cross-server zone you can enter through some means solely for the purpose of forming a group, then when you exit that zone you get taken to the native server of the host of the party. Names at that point would be as simple as adding the players server name when they are doing cross server activities.

So like if I went to another server for something like Hasidim, my name would read Blortad(Ruairi) or something along those lines. Maybe add an extra line above guild name for server in those cases instead?

Comments

  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,940
    Posts: 489
    Member
    I think that that gets dangerously close to the Merge thang.

    I'd be 10000000000000000000000000000% OK with us at least having RP/Event areas be cross-server. That way you can't trade items but just socialize (which seems to be the biggest complaint from players?). That being said, once the functionality of cross-server is there, it can be cracked and exploited by those with the know-how, experience, and/or moooooola.
  • BlortadBlortad
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,490
    Posts: 251
    Member
    Anything can be "cracked" by those with the experience or money to do so. Whats to stop those same people from "cracking" the game as it is now? Il tell you what, the exact same things that would be stopping them if cross-server content became a reality. Its not like if cross-server becomes a thing, suddenly the game is going to be open to a plethora of hackers that it somehow wouldnt be open to already. And what do you mean "dangerously close"? That makes no sense. The people against a server merge are against it because of the various problems it comes with such as the difficulties in transferring bank information, character names, and guilds. The people who want a server merge push it as a suggested means of dealing with the glaring lack of population in group only content. The only "dangerous" aspects of a server merge are the above mentioned problems, none of which exist in the context of cross-server content. So tell me, what exactly is "dangerous" about this suggestion, cause this idea shares literally zero of the "dangers" that a server merge potentially comes with. On the same token, what could even possibly be exploited? Seriously, name one thing that even MIGHT be a legitimate concern with cross-server content? You brought up trading, but that makes no sense either. Its not like having an item from another server is going to make the universe implode, and its not like there will suddenly be extreme market saturation either. Even if they DID make the AH and Housing boards cross-server as well, which doesnt need to be done and adds unnecessary logistical problems anyways, there wouldnt JUST be more items in the overall pool of available items, there will be players to match that. Suggesting market saturation comes, inseparably, with the suggestion that items just appear on the AH and in shops spontaneously on their own. This is not the case, every instance of an item that is up for sale is there because a player got it from a drop and put it there. Every item that sells does so because a player buys it. If there are more players playing, there will be more items for sale, yes, but there will also be more people looking to buy those items meaning more of them will sell to match the more of them that will be posted for sale.

    Really though, its not like some people are against a server merge because of some misplaced sense of group superiority, like theyre thinking, "I dont want no filthy Ruairi plebs on MY server!" No, the reasoning is entirely on problems related to transfer of data and MAYBE overpopulation. All the cross-server content would do is allow people who have trouble doing group-oriented content access to a larger pool of players to group with.

    Let me be clear, Im NOT saying that cross-server content is completely without problems. It can be disastrous if implemented incorrectly. Anyone who played WoW during their early cross-realm features knows what can happen, but the practices that caused those problems are harder to implement anyways and are unnecessary as far as solving Mabi's population issues is concerned. The exact opposite can easily be true, anyone who has played WoW since they figured out how to do it right knows how amazing cross-server stuff can be.

    The problem in a nutshell was that they had it set to automatically apply cross-realm features to zones upon entering them. This meant that when you entered a zone with cross-realm functionality, you would see every player from every realm who was in that zone at any given time. This was problematic because world resources and bosses and rare mobs became impossible to get because of the massive volume of players that were suddenly there looking for those same things that were from other realms. They fixed this simply by not having that happen by default and instead only activating cross-realm features when two players from different realms were in a group together. The difference being that if I was on one realm and went into a cross-realm compatible area, the only way I would see players from other realms is if those players were currently invited to a group by someone from my realm. In short, if i wanted to do questing or a dungeon or whatever with a friend who is on another realm, I just had to invite them to a group and they would pop into my realm with a tag on their name specifying their home realm, then they would return to their realm when the party was disbanded. This allowed cross-realm play to occur, allowing players to get into groups much more easily and allowing them to play with friends without starting over, but didn't cause the same problems that were caused when it was done automatically and involuntarily. What Blizzard did with WoW at first for cross-realm zones would be the thing that would have potential repercussions on gameplay and would be functionally the same as a server merge in respect to lag and world resources, but what im suggesting is more similar to what they did to solve those issues later, that is isolating the functionality to private groups.

    We dont need an increase in players in overworld content, which is what a server merge would result in, we need an increase in players in instanced content like the apostle raids and Rabbie Phantasm and SM's and Sidhe Finnachaid. Even if inviting players from another server to a group didnt bring them to the overworld for your server at all and merely allowed them to assist in instanced content like shadow missions and apostle raids, that would be just fine, ideal in fact.

    The biggest issue here would potentially be nobody even doing it anyways. With how party joining works currently, apart from apostle raid groups, the only way to join a party is to click the box to do so. If youre on another server and thus cant see or click on the box, how do you join that group? For that matter, if you want to do content but nobody on your server is running it, how do you go about figuring out that another server has a group you can join? My initial suggestion was a single cross-server zone you could enter for the purpose of forming cross-server groups, but now that I think about it more, I realize that we already have an answer, the almost completely ignored party board. If they used that feature to house the cross-server functions then heres how it would go down.

    step 1: someone from another realm registers a group they make to the party board.

    step 2: you find that group on the party board and join

    step 3: you stand on the means of entering the instance just like you normally would (shadow altars, dungeon altars, near the insignia for the apostle raids, etc)

    step 4: the group leader enters the instance after making sure the cross-server group members are standing in the entry method on their respective realms just like they would with a group made of only home-server players, then enters

    step 5: finish whatever SM, dungeon, raid, etc you are doing and exit as normal, returning you to your native server and leave the group if you dont want to do more content with those players, just like you would with a home-realm group

    If corss-server content were made available only for instanced content then no players from one server would ever actually enter another servers overworld, thus eliminating the need to change names or delete guilds or hassle with transferring bank information as well as any worry of overpopulation. What it WOULD do, however, is allow me (and many others like me, suffering from the problems of the low population realms) to actually reasonably be able to get things like their weekly and daily orders finished more consistently and their crusader skills trained in a reasonable amount of time.

    Even before cross-realm zones, WoW implemented exactly this, corss-realm dungeons and raids only. Before this change, it got to the point with that game where most dungeons were impossible to run because they absolutely could not be soloed, but nobody ran them on anything but the most heavily populated realms. After they implemented cross-realm dungeons and raids, it instantly populated all dungeons across all realms because when any given realm lacked players running that specific dungeon or raid, it would simply pull players from another realm to fill the missing spots. After that, nobody had the problem of not being able to find a group for their content ever again. The average time spent trying to get a group for a dungeon in a low population realm went from 1-4 hours average to 30 seconds to 30 minutes average depending on the class and spec you played.

    Like many other players, Im on the fence about a server merge because of problems with names, guilds, and overpopulation of the overworld. Corss-server content, however, I have absolutely no qualms with. If you dont want to do stuff across servers, dont do it. If you hate how low your servers population is and want to do stuff with other servers, do it. There would be no involuntary change to gameplay of any kind like there would be with a server merge. It would not effect anyone in the slightest unless they, themselves, decided to join or form a cross-server group.
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,940
    Posts: 489
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    Blortad wrote: »
    Anything can be "cracked" by those with the experience or money to do so. Whats to stop those same people from "cracking" the game as it is now? Il tell you what, the exact same things that would be stopping them if cross-server content became a reality. Its not like if cross-server becomes a thing, suddenly the game is going to be open to a plethora of hackers that it somehow wouldnt be open to already. And what do you mean "dangerously close"? That makes no sense. The people against a server merge are against it because of the various problems it comes with such as the difficulties in transferring bank information, character names, and guilds. The people who want a server merge push it as a suggested means of dealing with the glaring lack of population in group only content. The only "dangerous" aspects of a server merge are the above mentioned problems, none of which exist in the context of cross-server content. So tell me, what exactly is "dangerous" about this suggestion, cause this idea shares literally zero of the "dangers" that a server merge potentially comes with. On the same token, what could even possibly be exploited? Seriously, name one thing that even MIGHT be a legitimate concern with cross-server content? You brought up trading, but that makes no sense either. Its not like having an item from another server is going to make the universe implode, and its not like there will suddenly be extreme market saturation either. Even if they DID make the AH and Housing boards cross-server as well, which doesnt need to be done and adds unnecessary logistical problems anyways, there wouldnt JUST be more items in the overall pool of available items, there will be players to match that. Suggesting market saturation comes, inseparably, with the suggestion that items just appear on the AH and in shops spontaneously on their own. This is not the case, every instance of an item that is up for sale is there because a player got it from a drop and put it there. Every item that sells does so because a player buys it. If there are more players playing, there will be more items for sale, yes, but there will also be more people looking to buy those items meaning more of them will sell to match the more of them that will be posted for sale.

    Really though, its not like some people are against a server merge because of some misplaced sense of group superiority, like theyre thinking, "I dont want no filthy Ruairi plebs on MY server!" No, the reasoning is entirely on problems related to transfer of data and MAYBE overpopulation. All the cross-server content would do is allow people who have trouble doing group-oriented content access to a larger pool of players to group with.

    Let me be clear, Im NOT saying that cross-server content is completely without problems. It can be disastrous if implemented incorrectly. Anyone who played WoW during their early cross-realm features knows what can happen, but the practices that caused those problems are harder to implement anyways and are unnecessary as far as solving Mabi's population issues is concerned. The exact opposite can easily be true, anyone who has played WoW since they figured out how to do it right knows how amazing cross-server stuff can be.

    The problem in a nutshell was that they had it set to automatically apply cross-realm features to zones upon entering them. This meant that when you entered a zone with cross-realm functionality, you would see every player from every realm who was in that zone at any given time. This was problematic because world resources and bosses and rare mobs became impossible to get because of the massive volume of players that were suddenly there looking for those same things that were from other realms. They fixed this simply by not having that happen by default and instead only activating cross-realm features when two players from different realms were in a group together. The difference being that if I was on one realm and went into a cross-realm compatible area, the only way I would see players from other realms is if those players were currently invited to a group by someone from my realm. In short, if i wanted to do questing or a dungeon or whatever with a friend who is on another realm, I just had to invite them to a group and they would pop into my realm with a tag on their name specifying their home realm, then they would return to their realm when the party was disbanded. This allowed cross-realm play to occur, allowing players to get into groups much more easily and allowing them to play with friends without starting over, but didn't cause the same problems that were caused when it was done automatically and involuntarily. What Blizzard did with WoW at first for cross-realm zones would be the thing that would have potential repercussions on gameplay and would be functionally the same as a server merge in respect to lag and world resources, but what im suggesting is more similar to what they did to solve those issues later, that is isolating the functionality to private groups.

    We dont need an increase in players in overworld content, which is what a server merge would result in, we need an increase in players in instanced content like the apostle raids and Rabbie Phantasm and SM's and Sidhe Finnachaid. Even if inviting players from another server to a group didnt bring them to the overworld for your server at all and merely allowed them to assist in instanced content like shadow missions and apostle raids, that would be just fine, ideal in fact.

    The biggest issue here would potentially be nobody even doing it anyways. With how party joining works currently, apart from apostle raid groups, the only way to join a party is to click the box to do so. If youre on another server and thus cant see or click on the box, how do you join that group? For that matter, if you want to do content but nobody on your server is running it, how do you go about figuring out that another server has a group you can join? My initial suggestion was a single cross-server zone you could enter for the purpose of forming cross-server groups, but now that I think about it more, I realize that we already have an answer, the almost completely ignored party board. If they used that feature to house the cross-server functions then heres how it would go down.

    step 1: someone from another realm registers a group they make to the party board.

    step 2: you find that group on the party board and join

    step 3: you stand on the means of entering the instance just like you normally would (shadow altars, dungeon altars, near the insignia for the apostle raids, etc)

    step 4: the group leader enters the instance after making sure the cross-server group members are standing in the entry method on their respective realms just like they would with a group made of only home-server players, then enters

    step 5: finish whatever SM, dungeon, raid, etc you are doing and exit as normal, returning you to your native server and leave the group if you dont want to do more content with those players, just like you would with a home-realm group

    If corss-server content were made available only for instanced content then no players from one server would ever actually enter another servers overworld, thus eliminating the need to change names or delete guilds or hassle with transferring bank information as well as any worry of overpopulation. What it WOULD do, however, is allow me (and many others like me, suffering from the problems of the low population realms) to actually reasonably be able to get things like their weekly and daily orders finished more consistently and their crusader skills trained in a reasonable amount of time.

    Even before cross-realm zones, WoW implemented exactly this, corss-realm dungeons and raids only. Before this change, it got to the point with that game where most dungeons were impossible to run because they absolutely could not be soloed, but nobody ran them on anything but the most heavily populated realms. After they implemented cross-realm dungeons and raids, it instantly populated all dungeons across all realms because when any given realm lacked players running that specific dungeon or raid, it would simply pull players from another realm to fill the missing spots. After that, nobody had the problem of not being able to find a group for their content ever again. The average time spent trying to get a group for a dungeon in a low population realm went from 1-4 hours average to 30 seconds to 30 minutes average depending on the class and spec you played.

    Like many other players, Im on the fence about a server merge because of problems with names, guilds, and overpopulation of the overworld. Corss-server content, however, I have absolutely no qualms with. If you dont want to do stuff across servers, dont do it. If you hate how low your servers population is and want to do stuff with other servers, do it. There would be no involuntary change to gameplay of any kind like there would be with a server merge. It would not effect anyone in the slightest unless they, themselves, decided to join or form a cross-server group.
    I'm sorry that's way too much text for me to read right now. I'ma have to get back to you on that.
    THICCthighssavelives
  • TheNyanCatTheNyanCat
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,665
    Posts: 661
    Member
    I'm sorry that's way too much text for me to read right now. I'ma have to get back to you on that.
    And you went and quoted the entire thing?

    Honestly I doubt we'll get cross server content, this isn't maplestory. If they were going to allow other servers interact with each other they would just merge them.
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,940
    Posts: 489
    Member
    TheNyanCat wrote: »
    I'm sorry that's way too much text for me to read right now. I'ma have to get back to you on that.
    And you went and quoted the entire thing?

    Honestly I doubt we'll get cross server content, this isn't maplestory. If they were going to allow other servers interact with each other they would just merge them.

    Well I plan to respond to the entire thing, in segments.
  • BlortadBlortad
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,490
    Posts: 251
    Member
    TheNyanCat wrote: »

    Honestly I doubt we'll get cross server content, this isn't maplestory. If they were going to allow other servers interact with each other they would just merge them.

    No... see, that's the thing that comes with a HUGE mess of other problems. You make it sound like a server merge would be easier then cross-server content and that's simply not the case. If you aren't willing to actually read and understand the reasons why this is the case, you have no business making such a claim and doing so does nothing but spread misinformation and ideas that are dangerous to the well-being of Mabinogi as a whole. Saying they might as well just server merge if they were going to do cross-server content is like saying that if you intend to drive your car across town to go grocery shopping, you might as well just get out and push the car the whole way there instead, then carry the groceries by hand the way back while still pushing your car from the outside.

    The correct response here should actually be, "If they were going to merge the servers they would just let them interact with each other." Its not a matter of "Just merge the servers" like you seem to think, the logistics behind something like that is insane. If you want to understand all the massive problems with a server merge, go read the other thread discussing the massive drawbacks and implications of that idea,. here's a preview, a server merge may well come with a loss of: all your pets, all your gold, your character name, every item in your bank, and your guilds very existence.

    Now I don't know about you, but I sure as hell would like to keep all the pets I paid for and worked hard to get from events, the name I have had for like a decade now, my mass of accumulated rare oddities from events and other things that we are extremely likely to never see again, all the gold I spent endless hours obtaining, and the awesome guild I am currently in.

    If you don't care at all about any of these things or about the massive number of players the loss of all these things would cause to quit, then ya, I guess, from your perspective, they probably should "just merge the servers." For everyone else who values their time and effort, however, a server merge is a terrifying idea.

    The fact remains that without some means of consolidating this games players in some manner, it may not last much longer. Right now it is impossible for new players on low population servers to get a great many things done because those things cannot be soloed by a newbie and there arent enough people playing to get them into a group to get help. This leads to new players quitting before they get very far. It is pretty common knowledge that without a steady stream of new players to balance out the old players who quit, take long breaks, or just plain get bored, no MMO can survive. Over time, any games player base deteriorates, period, no exceptions. If that game fails to bring in new players to compensate for that deterioration, eventually the game starts to lack the player volume to make it cost-effective. Once a game starts to lose money rather then make it, that game is shut down.

    This is reality, when you try to fight reality, reality wins, every time, without fail, period, end of story. If you want the game to keep going, something MUST be dome about this population density problem, and a server merge is extremely likely to do nothing more then make everything worse unless it's handled flawlessly, addressing every one of these data loss concerns. (and lets be real here, this studio isn't exactly known for adequately addressing all possible problems and concerns with any given update, let alone something this audacious) Cross-server content, however, addresses this massive problem without the worry of any form of data loss and only half the work and logistical problems, which comes, inseparably, with much lower cost of implementation.

    Server merge runs the risk of backfiring massively, causing large numbers of players to quit, resulting in the games ultimate shut-down. Cross-server content will, at the very worst, simply not adequately solve the problem at hand. Both options have an equal chance to give the game what it desperately needs, but only one of those options, the server merge, comes with the massive risk of ruining what is already there. The only possible repercussions of cross-server content would be that nobody uses it after it's released. Server merge, however, risks unmendable damage.