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Permadeath Server

Comments

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    You have to consider that our population is already small enough. Why make an entire server when the main outcry has been to merge servers? An MMORPG's crowd is dependent on the game itself. We clearly already have several established audiences, and the current shift has made the game far less difficult than it was at inception.

    Path of Exile has an entirely different audience, and it is clearly a game aimed for those who enjoyed tests of skills in a roguelike setting, and who particularly weren't satisfied by recent iterations of Diablo.

    My point? We are simply not a crowd that craves a Dark Soul's experience in Mabinogi at this point, and I doubt anything can be done to reverse that change. Which means we wouldn't have a population to justify this, especially with a three pet limit limiting sales. Combined with how this demands some level of fairness, in an economy driven mostly by Gachapon purchases, Nexon has no interest in it either.

    I would first and foremost, at least like some skills variety to be encouraged, and for some of the old difficulty to be back, yet even that is a bit unrealistic. It is far tougher to essentially rip out content that has been mainstays for the last few years than it is to never implement it.

    You're phrasing this like people would be living on this server permanantly. 3 pets is an idea to keep it fair. I'm going to go ahead an assume most people play this game on one server over multiple alts. A permadeath server doesn't divide the userbase because it's limited to 1 character per account and it's on 1 server. How much can you really do if I give you a week on a new server? When you've done all you can, you can go back to a regular server for a casual experience and that's only counting if you want to even play on that server in the first place. Maybe it's not for you, no one would be forcing you.

    I am phrasing it as I have seen people play. We recently had an event that allows us to ignore skills like enchanting with training seals dedicated to maxing it out, while giving a hefty boost to level 5000. We have had many previous level up events, and yet I cannot say that the outcry for Server merges has died down.

    When it comes to alternate characters, I am of the assumption that alternates become likely only if players are around my level. Most aren't, and the mindset that accompanies it is "Can I make my character better, stronger, faster?" To many, they want to completely finish their character, and yet, there's so much work to do. MMOs work around that model, and given how people wish to be at ease at having completely maxing out their characters, continue to play that characters in lieu of alternate characters, on the belief that alternates take away time that could be spent on said characters.

    That, and people would essentially be ranking up the same skills, to which a fair portion may find fun, but many would find tedious. Warrior? Sure. Ninja and life talents? Oh heck no.

    Though you miss my point. I am stating these points in particular.

    -Path of Exile is popular because the developers aren't greedy with their business model thus far. Nexon and DevCat are nothing like Grinding Gears; POE started out by gamers who wished for a more hardcore experience, versus Nexon and Devcat who are far more calculating and corporate.

    This shows in the type of game Mabinogi has become, and doubtlessly that of flagship game Maplestory. We have Guardian Saint's Armor, we have Abyss armor. We have Rank 1 gear popping out, which is only available by using storebought reforges. We have the best tailoring manuals usually only reserved for Gachapons. We have Eerie, Haunting, and Creepy Enchants. Before, we had Avenger Accessories that weren't possible through any game play. All of this, on a Gachapon system.

    We had pets with better stats, more powerful AOEs that stack debuffs, and various others. Need I say more?

    Nexon themselves wouldn't be interested unless it provided a sizable profit to keep the server running. Yet, it wouldn't be able to be maintained unless we have a population interested in such a thing, bringing me to my next point.

    -The population is full of casual players, accustomed to a game that has long softened its learning and difficulty curve by a large margin. We can final entire rooms to death. We can forever stun something using bash. We have a complete heal every 10 minutes of combat. Us elves are able to have a vast majority monsters deal 1 damage to us naked that isn't magic, like everyone else.

    We release clothes that go for 10-50 million gold. We have people who spend hundreds of millions of gold to pretty up their homestead. Seeing as how most of the permadeath population would be derived from our current population, and the vast amount of players aren't Gigrgashiy spammers, I do not believe that we have enough people to be interested in such a thing.

    To conclude, you have to consider money, because Nexon is all about the money. While Grinding Gears no doubt needs to make money, they are also passionate about making a great game. With Nexon and Mabinogi? The game is all over the place, being a patchwork of half baked ideas by half a dozen directors who went on to other projects. The game has gotten easier as to be mind-numbing, with Firebolt Counterattacks being substituted with me killing Arc Lich with Hydra+Hide.

    I don't believe this idea will gain any traction with the current population, nor do I believe we could change the population or the minds of the current one. I don't believe Nexon will shoot themselves in the foot on something that will likely lose them money. You say three pets is fair, but when has Nexon ever been interested in such a thing as fairness?

    Honestly? If I wanted to play Dark Souls or POE, I will play Dark Souls or POE. If I want to play Mabi, I will play Mabi. I don't count on Nexon doing either Dark Souls or POE right. Look at Vindictus.
    LeineiAlexLightTwelie
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,515
    Posts: 2,276
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.
    AlexLightFaybal
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    You have to consider that our population is already small enough. Why make an entire server when the main outcry has been to merge servers? An MMORPG's crowd is dependent on the game itself. We clearly already have several established audiences, and the current shift has made the game far less difficult than it was at inception.

    Path of Exile has an entirely different audience, and it is clearly a game aimed for those who enjoyed tests of skills in a roguelike setting, and who particularly weren't satisfied by recent iterations of Diablo.

    My point? We are simply not a crowd that craves a Dark Soul's experience in Mabinogi at this point, and I doubt anything can be done to reverse that change. Which means we wouldn't have a population to justify this, especially with a three pet limit limiting sales. Combined with how this demands some level of fairness, in an economy driven mostly by Gachapon purchases, Nexon has no interest in it either.

    I would first and foremost, at least like some skills variety to be encouraged, and for some of the old difficulty to be back, yet even that is a bit unrealistic. It is far tougher to essentially rip out content that has been mainstays for the last few years than it is to never implement it.

    You're phrasing this like people would be living on this server permanantly. 3 pets is an idea to keep it fair. I'm going to go ahead an assume most people play this game on one server over multiple alts. A permadeath server doesn't divide the userbase because it's limited to 1 character per account and it's on 1 server. How much can you really do if I give you a week on a new server? When you've done all you can, you can go back to a regular server for a casual experience and that's only counting if you want to even play on that server in the first place. Maybe it's not for you, no one would be forcing you.

    I am phrasing it as I have seen people play. We recently had an event that allows us to ignore skills like enchanting with training seals dedicated to maxing it out, while giving a hefty boost to level 5000. We have had many previous level up events, and yet I cannot say that the outcry for Server merges has died down.

    When it comes to alternate characters, I am of the assumption that alternates become likely only if players are around my level. Most aren't, and the mindset that accompanies it is "Can I make my character better, stronger, faster?" To many, they want to completely finish their character, and yet, there's so much work to do. MMOs work around that model, and given how people wish to be at ease at having completely maxing out their characters, continue to play that characters in lieu of alternate characters, on the belief that alternates take away time that could be spent on said characters.

    That, and people would essentially be ranking up the same skills, to which a fair portion may find fun, but many would find tedious. Warrior? Sure. Ninja and life talents? Oh heck no.

    Though you miss my point. I am stating these points in particular.

    -Path of Exile is popular because the developers aren't greedy with their business model thus far. Nexon and DevCat are nothing like Grinding Gears; POE started out by gamers who wished for a more hardcore experience, versus Nexon and Devcat who are far more calculating and corporate.

    This shows in the type of game Mabinogi has become, and doubtlessly that of flagship game Maplestory. We have Guardian Saint's Armor, we have Abyss armor. We have Rank 1 gear popping out, which is only available by using storebought reforges. We have the best tailoring manuals usually only reserved for Gachapons. We have Eerie, Haunting, and Creepy Enchants. Before, we had Avenger Accessories that weren't possible through any game play. All of this, on a Gachapon system.

    We had pets with better stats, more powerful AOEs that stack debuffs, and various others. Need I say more?

    Nexon themselves wouldn't be interested unless it provided a sizable profit to keep the server running. Yet, it wouldn't be able to be maintained unless we have a population interested in such a thing, bringing me to my next point.

    -The population is full of casual players, accustomed to a game that has long softened its learning and difficulty curve by a large margin. We can final entire rooms to death. We can forever stun something using bash. We have a complete heal every 10 minutes of combat. Us elves are able to have a vast majority monsters deal 1 damage to us naked that isn't magic, like everyone else.

    We release clothes that go for 10-50 million gold. We have people who spend hundreds of millions of gold to pretty up their homestead. Seeing as how most of the permadeath population would be derived from our current population, and the vast amount of players aren't Gigrgashiy spammers, I do not believe that we have enough people to be interested in such a thing.

    To conclude, you have to consider money, because Nexon is all about the money. While Grinding Gears no doubt needs to make money, they are also passionate about making a great game. With Nexon and Mabinogi? The game is all over the place, being a patchwork of half baked ideas by half a dozen directors who went on to other projects. The game has gotten easier as to be mind-numbing, with Firebolt Counterattacks being substituted with me killing Arc Lich with Hydra+Hide.

    I don't believe this idea will gain any traction with the current population, nor do I believe we could change the population or the minds of the current one. I don't believe Nexon will shoot themselves in the foot on something that will likely lose them money. You say three pets is fair, but when has Nexon ever been interested in such a thing as fairness?

    Honestly? If I wanted to play Dark Souls or POE, I will play Dark Souls or POE. If I want to play Mabi, I will play Mabi. I don't count on Nexon doing either Dark Souls or POE right. Look at Vindictus.

    So if Nexon was interested in the idea, you would fine with it? I feel that curiousity would bring players to try out the Permadeath Server and they may get hooked. You say the population is casual but you would be surprised at how many players play masochistic games like League of Legends. Sure the game has been getting easier over the years but that's true to any MMO. There are still hard aspects about the game.

    Remember when you needed a filler for G1 and just couldn't do the mission unless you had a party of three? Now you can solo the whole generation. Now there are raid bosses you absolutely can't solo. DevCat released many pets that have AoE. DevCat also disables pets when you're in the vicinity of what used to be an old field boss like Mammoth or Yeti. Sure they want you to buy pets buy they also challenge you by disabling them. And I can solo A Mammoth no problem but I appreciate the challenge when I can't just spam cloud to heal.

    I'm using PoE here as an example again sorry but people could still buy gachapons. People still buy cash items on PoE, even in the hardcore servers. They can showoff in town and put it in the wardrobe when they're done.

    Regarding hard to train skills like life skills and ninja skills, it's your choice. I don't know if someone would want to train ninja skills early on, on a permadeath server but even then, it has it's benefits considering you can fully train ninja regardless of combat power so you never have to risk dying to Very Powerfuls or Bosses. Then there's also the bonus talent exp added for higher current levels which makes leveling skills easier than they've ever been.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,440
    Posts: 887
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    AlexLight wrote: »
    then you can also ask why would someone rank life skills in a perma death server

    I would think to have a way to raise money and participate in the atmosphere without dying.

    But you have to have materials to rank and unless you have a sponsor of sorts, you yourself will have to go hunting for them. Therein lies the threat to life. Unless your guild is willing to build a life skiller up, the crafter will need gold to buy materials if they themselves can't farm them and that too puts them into danger.

    And furthermore this will cause more problems. If someone dies during the acquisition of materials, they will eventually decide it is no longer worth it. The crafter will lose their supplier and then crafting will once again be at a standstill.

    You start out slow. I.E Kill things in Alby > Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    Were this ANY other game, I think you'd have a better reception.

    But this is Mabi. The game that always blows everyone's expectations when it comes to how easily things break or go wrong.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,440
    Posts: 887
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Crafting is just ONE of the weak points of your idea.

    Consider one of the problems that plague many games; lag spikes. What if you were to die simply because a massive lag spike decided to hit you at the worst opportunity? Good luck finding someone who wants to try this idea again after that.

    And there are also skills designed to kill you in one hit if you miss the timing (ex; Talvish's Judgement Blade Burst skill thingy; he also likes to make it so you often are unable to defend against it.)

    The issue boils down to poor programming. No amount of "strategy" or "preparation" can overcome poor programming.
    FaybalGretaTwelie
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    You have to consider that our population is already small enough. Why make an entire server when the main outcry has been to merge servers? An MMORPG's crowd is dependent on the game itself. We clearly already have several established audiences, and the current shift has made the game far less difficult than it was at inception.

    Path of Exile has an entirely different audience, and it is clearly a game aimed for those who enjoyed tests of skills in a roguelike setting, and who particularly weren't satisfied by recent iterations of Diablo.

    My point? We are simply not a crowd that craves a Dark Soul's experience in Mabinogi at this point, and I doubt anything can be done to reverse that change. Which means we wouldn't have a population to justify this, especially with a three pet limit limiting sales. Combined with how this demands some level of fairness, in an economy driven mostly by Gachapon purchases, Nexon has no interest in it either.

    I would first and foremost, at least like some skills variety to be encouraged, and for some of the old difficulty to be back, yet even that is a bit unrealistic. It is far tougher to essentially rip out content that has been mainstays for the last few years than it is to never implement it.

    You're phrasing this like people would be living on this server permanantly. 3 pets is an idea to keep it fair. I'm going to go ahead an assume most people play this game on one server over multiple alts. A permadeath server doesn't divide the userbase because it's limited to 1 character per account and it's on 1 server. How much can you really do if I give you a week on a new server? When you've done all you can, you can go back to a regular server for a casual experience and that's only counting if you want to even play on that server in the first place. Maybe it's not for you, no one would be forcing you.

    I am phrasing it as I have seen people play. We recently had an event that allows us to ignore skills like enchanting with training seals dedicated to maxing it out, while giving a hefty boost to level 5000. We have had many previous level up events, and yet I cannot say that the outcry for Server merges has died down.

    When it comes to alternate characters, I am of the assumption that alternates become likely only if players are around my level. Most aren't, and the mindset that accompanies it is "Can I make my character better, stronger, faster?" To many, they want to completely finish their character, and yet, there's so much work to do. MMOs work around that model, and given how people wish to be at ease at having completely maxing out their characters, continue to play that characters in lieu of alternate characters, on the belief that alternates take away time that could be spent on said characters.

    That, and people would essentially be ranking up the same skills, to which a fair portion may find fun, but many would find tedious. Warrior? Sure. Ninja and life talents? Oh heck no.

    Though you miss my point. I am stating these points in particular.

    -Path of Exile is popular because the developers aren't greedy with their business model thus far. Nexon and DevCat are nothing like Grinding Gears; POE started out by gamers who wished for a more hardcore experience, versus Nexon and Devcat who are far more calculating and corporate.

    This shows in the type of game Mabinogi has become, and doubtlessly that of flagship game Maplestory. We have Guardian Saint's Armor, we have Abyss armor. We have Rank 1 gear popping out, which is only available by using storebought reforges. We have the best tailoring manuals usually only reserved for Gachapons. We have Eerie, Haunting, and Creepy Enchants. Before, we had Avenger Accessories that weren't possible through any game play. All of this, on a Gachapon system.

    We had pets with better stats, more powerful AOEs that stack debuffs, and various others. Need I say more?

    Nexon themselves wouldn't be interested unless it provided a sizable profit to keep the server running. Yet, it wouldn't be able to be maintained unless we have a population interested in such a thing, bringing me to my next point.

    -The population is full of casual players, accustomed to a game that has long softened its learning and difficulty curve by a large margin. We can final entire rooms to death. We can forever stun something using bash. We have a complete heal every 10 minutes of combat. Us elves are able to have a vast majority monsters deal 1 damage to us naked that isn't magic, like everyone else.

    We release clothes that go for 10-50 million gold. We have people who spend hundreds of millions of gold to pretty up their homestead. Seeing as how most of the permadeath population would be derived from our current population, and the vast amount of players aren't Gigrgashiy spammers, I do not believe that we have enough people to be interested in such a thing.

    To conclude, you have to consider money, because Nexon is all about the money. While Grinding Gears no doubt needs to make money, they are also passionate about making a great game. With Nexon and Mabinogi? The game is all over the place, being a patchwork of half baked ideas by half a dozen directors who went on to other projects. The game has gotten easier as to be mind-numbing, with Firebolt Counterattacks being substituted with me killing Arc Lich with Hydra+Hide.

    I don't believe this idea will gain any traction with the current population, nor do I believe we could change the population or the minds of the current one. I don't believe Nexon will shoot themselves in the foot on something that will likely lose them money. You say three pets is fair, but when has Nexon ever been interested in such a thing as fairness?

    Honestly? If I wanted to play Dark Souls or POE, I will play Dark Souls or POE. If I want to play Mabi, I will play Mabi. I don't count on Nexon doing either Dark Souls or POE right. Look at Vindictus.

    So if Nexon was interested in the idea, you would fine with it? I feel that curiousity would bring players to try out the Permadeath Server and they may get hooked. You say the population is casual but you would be surprised at how many players play masochistic games like League of Legends. Sure the game has been getting easier over the years but that's true to any MMO. There are still hard aspects about the game.

    Remember when you needed a filler for G1 and just couldn't do the mission unless you had a party of three? Now you can solo the whole generation. Now there are raid bosses you absolutely can't solo. DevCat released many pets that have AoE. DevCat also disables pets when you're in the vicinity of what used to be an old field boss like Mammoth or Yeti. Sure they want you to buy pets buy they also challenge you by disabling them. And I can solo A Mammoth no problem but I appreciate the challenge when I can't just spam cloud to heal.

    I'm using PoE here as an example again sorry but people could still buy gachapons. People still buy cash items on PoE, even in the hardcore servers. They can showoff in town and put it in the wardrobe when they're done.

    Regarding hard to train skills like life skills and ninja skills, it's your choice. I don't know if someone would want to train ninja skills early on, on a permadeath server but even then, it has it's benefits considering you can fully train ninja regardless of combat power so you never have to risk dying to Very Powerfuls or Bosses. Then there's also the bonus talent exp added for higher current levels which makes leveling skills easier than they've ever been.

    Except POE doesn't sell (Last time I checked) gamebreaking items, nor did they center large amounts of game around this concept. Remember life skills? Gachapon made them useless. This is a large part of why the current economy is driven by the gachapon, as items like certain Celtic weapons and armour are dropped by the dozens at grades not at all attainable.

    This isn't to say POE doesn't sell items, but that they have the decency to not uproot the central dogma of the game by selling level 120 armour that can be worned by level 1s.

    To which I reiterate reality. Nexon is not interested because they love money. Most players who give that money aren't interested because we know that the developers here are going to screw everything up in pursuit of profit, nor are we playing a game like Mabinogi for the difficulty. There won't be enough people to justify the server. Nothing will change that unless there is money involved. Which doesn't change the type of population, and what most of us expect from DevCat.

    Alternate characters at any significant level are a rarity, given how tedious many skills are, combined with the perfectionist mindset of truly maxing out a character. Leveling up an alternate account takes away time that could be used to make a main stronger. People don't usually do that unless they are way more geared than the average player. Even then, your statement that players play games like League of Legends can be reversed.

    Some people like to alternate between both. Why focus on making this hardcore server that wouldn't be half as good as POE? And I ask you, why focus on Permadeath when we really want to focus on the revamp of skills to give us back the days of yore, when difficulty was a thing? Taking out bash is just the tip of the iceberg.

    This hypothesis of mine is based on a number of observed phenomenom. Many games experience a steadily declining population as time goes on, from their open betas to their closing down. People are interested in the entirely new, and while this is a new server, it is still an extension of Mabinogi. Which I remind you has existed for nearly 10 years or more, and has population issues already plaguing the main server. We would be getting a majority of our players from the current population, because people like the new and unestablished.

    In short, opening any new server is a bad idea, and could kill off the game entirely if we fracture our population anymore. Servers cost money to run, you know. People play MMOs to play with others. Many people play difficult MMOs because they encourage the kind of closeknit team play that games like old Mabi and the FFXIV used to have. When people leave, it's a snowball effect. More and more people leave, servers became destitute wastelands. Entire games are forced to closed down.

    My suggestion? Just make Mabinogi 2 already, please. And Devs, don't make the same mistakes your predecessors did.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    AlexLight wrote: »
    then you can also ask why would someone rank life skills in a perma death server

    I would think to have a way to raise money and participate in the atmosphere without dying.

    But you have to have materials to rank and unless you have a sponsor of sorts, you yourself will have to go hunting for them. Therein lies the threat to life. Unless your guild is willing to build a life skiller up, the crafter will need gold to buy materials if they themselves can't farm them and that too puts them into danger.

    And furthermore this will cause more problems. If someone dies during the acquisition of materials, they will eventually decide it is no longer worth it. The crafter will lose their supplier and then crafting will once again be at a standstill.

    You start out slow. I.E Kill things in Alby > Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    Were this ANY other game, I think you'd have a better reception.

    But this is Mabi. The game that always blows everyone's expectations when it comes to how easily things break or go wrong.

    Maybe but I think, because this is Mabi, this would be great.
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Please explain this "crucial point". It would save a lot of time and maybe I already answered it.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,440
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    AlexLight wrote: »
    then you can also ask why would someone rank life skills in a perma death server

    I would think to have a way to raise money and participate in the atmosphere without dying.

    But you have to have materials to rank and unless you have a sponsor of sorts, you yourself will have to go hunting for them. Therein lies the threat to life. Unless your guild is willing to build a life skiller up, the crafter will need gold to buy materials if they themselves can't farm them and that too puts them into danger.

    And furthermore this will cause more problems. If someone dies during the acquisition of materials, they will eventually decide it is no longer worth it. The crafter will lose their supplier and then crafting will once again be at a standstill.

    You start out slow. I.E Kill things in Alby > Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    Were this ANY other game, I think you'd have a better reception.

    But this is Mabi. The game that always blows everyone's expectations when it comes to how easily things break or go wrong.

    Maybe but I think, because this is Mabi, this would be great.
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Please explain this "crucial point". It would save a lot of time and maybe I already answered it.

    Please see the edit to my last post (since everyone decided to post in the minute I took to edit my post)
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    You have to consider that our population is already small enough. Why make an entire server when the main outcry has been to merge servers? An MMORPG's crowd is dependent on the game itself. We clearly already have several established audiences, and the current shift has made the game far less difficult than it was at inception.

    Path of Exile has an entirely different audience, and it is clearly a game aimed for those who enjoyed tests of skills in a roguelike setting, and who particularly weren't satisfied by recent iterations of Diablo.

    My point? We are simply not a crowd that craves a Dark Soul's experience in Mabinogi at this point, and I doubt anything can be done to reverse that change. Which means we wouldn't have a population to justify this, especially with a three pet limit limiting sales. Combined with how this demands some level of fairness, in an economy driven mostly by Gachapon purchases, Nexon has no interest in it either.

    I would first and foremost, at least like some skills variety to be encouraged, and for some of the old difficulty to be back, yet even that is a bit unrealistic. It is far tougher to essentially rip out content that has been mainstays for the last few years than it is to never implement it.

    You're phrasing this like people would be living on this server permanantly. 3 pets is an idea to keep it fair. I'm going to go ahead an assume most people play this game on one server over multiple alts. A permadeath server doesn't divide the userbase because it's limited to 1 character per account and it's on 1 server. How much can you really do if I give you a week on a new server? When you've done all you can, you can go back to a regular server for a casual experience and that's only counting if you want to even play on that server in the first place. Maybe it's not for you, no one would be forcing you.

    I am phrasing it as I have seen people play. We recently had an event that allows us to ignore skills like enchanting with training seals dedicated to maxing it out, while giving a hefty boost to level 5000. We have had many previous level up events, and yet I cannot say that the outcry for Server merges has died down.

    When it comes to alternate characters, I am of the assumption that alternates become likely only if players are around my level. Most aren't, and the mindset that accompanies it is "Can I make my character better, stronger, faster?" To many, they want to completely finish their character, and yet, there's so much work to do. MMOs work around that model, and given how people wish to be at ease at having completely maxing out their characters, continue to play that characters in lieu of alternate characters, on the belief that alternates take away time that could be spent on said characters.

    That, and people would essentially be ranking up the same skills, to which a fair portion may find fun, but many would find tedious. Warrior? Sure. Ninja and life talents? Oh heck no.

    Though you miss my point. I am stating these points in particular.

    -Path of Exile is popular because the developers aren't greedy with their business model thus far. Nexon and DevCat are nothing like Grinding Gears; POE started out by gamers who wished for a more hardcore experience, versus Nexon and Devcat who are far more calculating and corporate.

    This shows in the type of game Mabinogi has become, and doubtlessly that of flagship game Maplestory. We have Guardian Saint's Armor, we have Abyss armor. We have Rank 1 gear popping out, which is only available by using storebought reforges. We have the best tailoring manuals usually only reserved for Gachapons. We have Eerie, Haunting, and Creepy Enchants. Before, we had Avenger Accessories that weren't possible through any game play. All of this, on a Gachapon system.

    We had pets with better stats, more powerful AOEs that stack debuffs, and various others. Need I say more?

    Nexon themselves wouldn't be interested unless it provided a sizable profit to keep the server running. Yet, it wouldn't be able to be maintained unless we have a population interested in such a thing, bringing me to my next point.

    -The population is full of casual players, accustomed to a game that has long softened its learning and difficulty curve by a large margin. We can final entire rooms to death. We can forever stun something using bash. We have a complete heal every 10 minutes of combat. Us elves are able to have a vast majority monsters deal 1 damage to us naked that isn't magic, like everyone else.

    We release clothes that go for 10-50 million gold. We have people who spend hundreds of millions of gold to pretty up their homestead. Seeing as how most of the permadeath population would be derived from our current population, and the vast amount of players aren't Gigrgashiy spammers, I do not believe that we have enough people to be interested in such a thing.

    To conclude, you have to consider money, because Nexon is all about the money. While Grinding Gears no doubt needs to make money, they are also passionate about making a great game. With Nexon and Mabinogi? The game is all over the place, being a patchwork of half baked ideas by half a dozen directors who went on to other projects. The game has gotten easier as to be mind-numbing, with Firebolt Counterattacks being substituted with me killing Arc Lich with Hydra+Hide.

    I don't believe this idea will gain any traction with the current population, nor do I believe we could change the population or the minds of the current one. I don't believe Nexon will shoot themselves in the foot on something that will likely lose them money. You say three pets is fair, but when has Nexon ever been interested in such a thing as fairness?

    Honestly? If I wanted to play Dark Souls or POE, I will play Dark Souls or POE. If I want to play Mabi, I will play Mabi. I don't count on Nexon doing either Dark Souls or POE right. Look at Vindictus.

    So if Nexon was interested in the idea, you would fine with it? I feel that curiousity would bring players to try out the Permadeath Server and they may get hooked. You say the population is casual but you would be surprised at how many players play masochistic games like League of Legends. Sure the game has been getting easier over the years but that's true to any MMO. There are still hard aspects about the game.

    Remember when you needed a filler for G1 and just couldn't do the mission unless you had a party of three? Now you can solo the whole generation. Now there are raid bosses you absolutely can't solo. DevCat released many pets that have AoE. DevCat also disables pets when you're in the vicinity of what used to be an old field boss like Mammoth or Yeti. Sure they want you to buy pets buy they also challenge you by disabling them. And I can solo A Mammoth no problem but I appreciate the challenge when I can't just spam cloud to heal.

    I'm using PoE here as an example again sorry but people could still buy gachapons. People still buy cash items on PoE, even in the hardcore servers. They can showoff in town and put it in the wardrobe when they're done.

    Regarding hard to train skills like life skills and ninja skills, it's your choice. I don't know if someone would want to train ninja skills early on, on a permadeath server but even then, it has it's benefits considering you can fully train ninja regardless of combat power so you never have to risk dying to Very Powerfuls or Bosses. Then there's also the bonus talent exp added for higher current levels which makes leveling skills easier than they've ever been.

    Except POE doesn't sell (Last time I checked) gamebreaking items, nor did they center large amounts of game around this concept. Remember life skills? Gachapon made them useless. This is a large part of why the current economy is driven by the gachapon, as items like certain Celtic weapons and armour are dropped by the dozens at grades not at all attainable.

    This isn't to say POE doesn't sell items, but that they have the decency to not uproot the central dogma of the game by selling level 120 armour that can be worned by level 1s.

    To which I reiterate reality. Nexon is not interested because they love money. Most players who give that money aren't interested because we know that the developers here are going to screw everything up in pursuit of profit, nor are we playing a game like Mabinogi for the difficulty. There won't be enough people to justify the server. Nothing will change that unless there is money involved. Which doesn't change the type of population, and what most of us expect from DevCat.

    Alternate characters at any significant level are a rarity, given how tedious many skills are, combined with the perfectionist mindset of truly maxing out a character. Leveling up an alternate account takes away time that could be used to make a main stronger. People don't usually do that unless they are way more geared than the average player. Even then, your statement that players play games like League of Legends can be reversed.

    Some people like to alternate between both. Why focus on making this hardcore server that wouldn't be half as good as POE? And I ask you, why focus on Permadeath when we really want to focus on the revamp of skills to give us back the days of yore, when difficulty was a thing? Taking out bash is just the tip of the iceberg.

    This hypothesis of mine is based on a number of observed phenomenom. Many games experience a steadily declining population as time goes on, from their open betas to their closing down. People are interested in the entirely new, and while this is a new server, it is still an extension of Mabinogi. Which I remind you has existed for nearly 10 years or more, and has population issues already plaguing the main server. We would be getting a majority of our players from the current population, because people like the new and unestablished.

    In short, opening any new server is a bad idea, and could kill off the game entirely if we fracture our population anymore. Servers cost money to run, you know. People play MMOs to play with others. Many people play difficult MMOs because they encourage the kind of closeknit team play that games like old Mabi and the FFXIV used to have. When people leave, it's a snowball effect. More and more people leave, servers became destitute wastelands. Entire games are forced to closed down.

    My suggestion? Just make Mabinogi 2 already, please. And Devs, don't make the same mistakes your predecessors did.

    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery slope, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    Otherwise, I would look to other developers for this, and most certainly not the corporate heads demanding "more profit, more gachapons" from developers only concerned with money. Games are part art, part product. Mabinogi, as it is now, is treated far more as a product to be sold than a game to be lovingly designed, and it shows.
    FaybalAlexLightTwelie
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Crafting is just ONE of the weak points of your idea.

    Consider one of the problems that plague many games; lag spikes. What if you were to die simply because a massive lag spike decided to hit you at the worst opportunity? Good luck finding someone who wants to try this idea again after that.

    And there are also skills designed to kill you in one hit if you miss the timing (ex; Talvish's Judgement Blade Burst skill thingy; he also likes to make it so you often are unable to defend against it.)

    The issue boils down to poor programming. No amount of "strategy" or "preparation" can overcome poor programming.

    I thought you would say something crucial lol. I'll paste what I typed earlier:

    If you're on the Permadeath server you would know the rules. You die, and use the items in your bank to start over. This "I worked so hard on my character and now I died" situation would mostly be your fault. Don't play on the Permadeath server when your ISP is giving you lag spikes. Don't play on the Permadeath server on wifi unless you're that gutsy. It's the fun of a permadeath server to see how far you can go.

    I'll add: Path of Exile is my only example of a Permadeath Server aside from the now shutdown Wizardry Online so I'll be referencing it again. In PoE if you lag and die, you still lose the character. It happens. Your friends can help you start over. If you don't have any, your bank can help you start over. It would work the same way. If you're thinking "What if I'm level 30000 with R1 everything and I died" My response would be, "Wow dude congrats, you lived for 30000 and didn't die. Sucks that you died. Better luck next time."

    For things like Talvish's 1 hit kill which is probably from G21 or G22 (I haven't gotten around to that yet, don't appreciate the spoilers) For a player to take on G21 or G22 knowing there's something that can oneshot you would be really risky so it's up to you whether you want to risk. If you're doing G21 or G22 for the first time on a hardcore server then my question would be "why???"
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    I honestly believe that while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    I don't think Nexon is as greedy as people think. I won't say names but the publisher who held, the now shutdown, SMT: Imagine was way greedier, the publisher who used to hold Rumble Fighter was way worse with customer support. Nexon often transferred games and accounts to other publishers rather than shutting them down completely like Audition and Dragon Nest. Nexon hasn't given me too many problems over the years at all and I like how you can still enjoy the game without needing to pay.

    Imagine how much money was lost by removing the old Pay2Rebirth system. Or even lowering the rebirth timer to 1week for everyone rather than 1week for premium cards and 3weeks for free users. Again this is just an idea and yeah, if Nexon takes the idea and it doesn't pan out, they could just remove the server and make up for lost costs with Gacha and Recolored Pet sales.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    I honestly believe that while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    I don't think Nexon is as greedy as people think. I won't say names but the publisher who held, the now shutdown, SMT: Imagine was way greedier, the publisher who used to hold Rumble Fighter was way worse with customer support. Nexon often transferred games and accounts to other publishers rather than shutting them down completely like Audition and Dragon Nest. Nexon hasn't given me too many problems over the years at all and I like how you can still enjoy the game without needing to pay.

    Imagine how much money was lost by removing the old Pay2Rebirth system. Or even lowering the rebirth timer to 1week for everyone rather than 1week for premium cards and 3weeks for free users. Again this is just an idea and yeah, if Nexon takes the idea and it doesn't pan out, they could just remove the server and make up for lost costs with Gacha and Recolored Pet sales.

    Imagine how much money was gained by providing something people could play. They couldn't make money off a closed game. Let's look at a couple of things.

    Just because (Insert bad person's name here) isn't as bad as Hitler, doesn't mean that person is any less "evil". The lesser of two evils is still evil, and it is an emotionally charged argument to distract whether or not something or someone is bad. This is something very touchy for many people who like these games; we like Dark Souls for being fair and moderately difficult.

    -Vindictus' +11 Enchantment stone
    -Mabinogi's $6 wig coupon storage.
    -Reforges
    -Most of the manuals that could be tossed into the game were instead tossed into the gachapon.
    -Avenger enchants were only for weapons, which make avenger accessories quite expensive.
    -Haunted, Creepy, and Eerie were gachapon and NA only enchants.
    -Basically, the entire system of Beauty Coupons effectively discourages purchasing new ones.
    -Pets basically provided heals that outdoes most people's healing capabilities.
    -Reforges are essentially the only way to have archery be capable enough to bring to use in lieu of other talents.
    -The (Second) best armours are way too easily available from Gachapon

    This suggestion of yours relies on the notion that Nexon wouldn't sell them on these servers.

    Even then, this also has to consider the past development cycle, AKA the actual game changes. Namely, that Nexon switches out directors every 5 months. To which you need to distinguish between the localization team here, and the people who actually design the game. Hardcore for POE only works because it is essentially adding modifiers to the base version of the game people play normally, with slight variations.

    This wouldn't work with Current Mabinogi, and keeping the two separate would either constrain future design decisions for both versions (Not fun for anyone) or require two separate versions with not only modifiers but entirely different approaches to the design. None of which I believe would sound pleasing to Nexon. This is perhaps my best argument here.

    To add on, this can work with regards to a dungeon you cannot revive in (Phantasm *coughs*), or a new game. Even then, let's be fair. NA's population is way too low, compared to overseas. They may implement it over there, but not here.

    AlexLightFaybalTwelie
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,365
    Posts: 355
    Member
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.
    AlexLightFaybalGreta
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    I honestly believe that while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    I don't think Nexon is as greedy as people think. I won't say names but the publisher who held, the now shutdown, SMT: Imagine was way greedier, the publisher who used to hold Rumble Fighter was way worse with customer support. Nexon often transferred games and accounts to other publishers rather than shutting them down completely like Audition and Dragon Nest. Nexon hasn't given me too many problems over the years at all and I like how you can still enjoy the game without needing to pay.

    Imagine how much money was lost by removing the old Pay2Rebirth system. Or even lowering the rebirth timer to 1week for everyone rather than 1week for premium cards and 3weeks for free users. Again this is just an idea and yeah, if Nexon takes the idea and it doesn't pan out, they could just remove the server and make up for lost costs with Gacha and Recolored Pet sales.

    Imagine how much money was gained by providing something people could play. They couldn't make money off a closed game. Let's look at a couple of things.

    Just because (Insert bad person's name here) isn't as bad as Hitler, doesn't mean that person is any less "evil". The lesser of two evils is still evil, and it is an emotionally charged argument to distract whether or not something or someone is bad. This is something very touchy for many people who like these games; we like Dark Souls for being fair and moderately difficult.

    -Vindictus' +11 Enchantment stone
    -Mabinogi's $6 wig coupon storage.
    -Reforges
    -Most of the manuals that could be tossed into the game were instead tossed into the gachapon.
    -Avenger enchants were only for weapons, which make avenger accessories quite expensive.
    -Haunted, Creepy, and Eerie were gachapon and NA only enchants.
    -Basically, the entire system of Beauty Coupons effectively discourages purchasing new ones.
    -Pets basically provided heals that outdoes most people's healing capabilities.
    -Reforges are essentially the only way to have archery be capable enough to bring to use in lieu of other talents.
    -The (Second) best armours are way too easily available from Gachapon

    This suggestion of yours relies on the notion that Nexon wouldn't sell them on these servers.

    Even then, this also has to consider the past development cycle, AKA the actual game changes. Namely, that Nexon switches out directors every 5 months. To which you need to distinguish between the localization team here, and the people who actually design the game. Hardcore for POE only works because it is essentially adding modifiers to the base version of the game people play normally, with slight variations.

    This wouldn't work with Current Mabinogi, and keeping the two separate would either constrain future design decisions for both versions (Not fun for anyone) or require two separate versions with not only modifiers but entirely different approaches to the design. None of which I believe would sound pleasing to Nexon. This is perhaps my best argument here.

    To add on, this can work with regards to a dungeon you cannot revive in (Phantasm *coughs*), or a new game.

    Yeah Nexon's not that bad. My point is that everything you complain that Nexon monetizes, there's many other games doing it worse. It's like the saying "the frog in the well knows nothing of the ocean". Nexon is not even a remotely bad company compared to a publisher that tries to sell in-game gold, or a publisher that sells a broken weapon for 55 USD (This actually happened in SMT:I)

    POE has been making some big changes to their skill gems that could, in a game that has a lot of factors, upset the balanced of gameplay for players. Mabi still feels like Mabi despite the changes over the years, nothing has been TOO major even the Dynamic combat update.

    Also I'm not suggesting Nexon not sell pets and cosmetics on the server but I do believe sales would be less on that server. Archery is fine for normal use. Most of the time when players talk about Archery being bad, they're talking about high-level end-game stuff and comparing it to the most powerful talents and skills. Archery has enough merit in just being a different playstyle, if you believe it needs buffs that's another issue but reforges are absolutely not necessary. Helpful maybe but not necessary.

    Also Vindictus isn't a thing like Dark Souls outside of it being an action RPG. If anything it's more like Dragon Nest or one of those hack and slash action games like a Dynasty Warriors game with less mobs.

    I also keep saying that having 1 character on a permadeath server does not drain other servers. That's like saying having Taillteann Shadow Missions drains Tara Shadow Missions. It's
    A lot of comments seem to be the same "nexon loves money so they wont do it" and I keep answering that with "if they want to do it they'll do it, that's why this is a suggestion not a demand"
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
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    Draech wrote: »
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.

    As I've said before, you're going into this with the normal server mindset. In a hardcore server you don't need to max rank gunslinger. Hybrid Stat talents would be risky to rank because you would need 2 stats being high to get full use of it which would be a luxury for strong players who know they won't die in the first place.

    Not to mention that all of the grindy talents are generally not Combat Power related which means you can grind at foxes, spiders, raccoons, ably normal etc. It is up to the player how they decide to play on such a server but playing with the mindset of maxing everything would be a big challenge.

    As I keep mentioning about what Blissfulkill said. Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide. I never mentioned the cash shop not working and I left pets open for discussion. You really don't know what Nexon can or will do and neither do I which is why I made a suggestion. I never suggested that Nexon make separate monetization for the Permadeath server and left the idea as similar to the original server as I could think of.

    I'm not trying to be mean but so far everything you've said has already been addressed and I'm really just repeating myself here to clear misunderstandings you might have.

    So for summary
    Permadeath
    -A permadeath server would be different from a normal server and should be approached differently
    -We don't know how many people would use the server because it's not implemented
    Consequence of Dying
    -You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    -Hard to train skills should be trained by people who actually want to train them
    Nexon/Money
    -We don't know whether Nexon would be able to afford or profit from this but it is ultimately up to them to decide
    -This doesn't split the playerbase because this is a 1 character per server idea that would still be running on the 1 rebirth per week model which naturally limits how much you can do on the server with your single character

    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,365
    Posts: 355
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.

    As I've said before, you're going into this with the normal server mindset. In a hardcore server you don't need to max rank gunslinger. Hybrid Stat talents would be risky to rank because you would need 2 stats being high to get full use of it which would be a luxury for strong players who know they won't die in the first place.

    Not to mention that all of the grindy talents are generally not Combat Power related which means you can grind at foxes, spiders, raccoons, ably normal etc. It is up to the player how they decide to play on such a server but playing with the mindset of maxing everything would be a big challenge.

    As I keep mentioning about what Blissfulkill said. Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide. I never mentioned the cash shop not working and I left pets open for discussion. You really don't know what Nexon can or will do and neither do I which is why I made a suggestion. I never suggested that Nexon make separate monetization for the Permadeath server and left the idea as similar to the original server as I could think of.

    I'm not trying to be mean but so far everything you've said has already been addressed and I'm really just repeating myself here to clear misunderstandings you might have.

    So for summary
    Permadeath
    -A permadeath server would be different from a normal server and should be approached differently
    -We don't know how many people would use the server because it's not implemented
    Consequence of Dying
    -You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    -Hard to train skills should be trained by people who actually want to train them
    Nexon/Money
    -We don't know whether Nexon would be able to afford or profit from this but it is ultimately up to them to decide
    -This doesn't split the playerbase because this is a 1 character per server idea that would still be running on the 1 rebirth per week model which naturally limits how much you can do on the server with your single character

    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.

    I think you misunderstand. One of my points is that Permadeath encourages players to remain mid-game, to avoid losing everything, yet early- and mid-game content is rather limited. This means people will rather quickly finish all they can accomplish "safely," and not even attempt end-game content, for fear of losing too much. This means people will get bored in a month or less. And it's not like you can do multiple playthroughs of Mabi, since there is no class system, and very little player decision affecting any outcome.

    As for monetization, I know you did not say it, but we can safely assume some, if not a lot of the cash shop content would become pointless. Why buy gacha on the permadeath server rather than on your main, if not for the chance at OP weapons. Nao Soul Stones become pointless, so that's out. Pets become limited, Dragon Summoning Scrolls become too dangerous, and the only thing still selling would be dyes and beauty coupons. As such, it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items. That's the point I'm making.

    And for the dying part, everyone knows the consequences, and as such, players will either quit once they've done everything that's safe (see my first argument) due to the fact they'd be better off playing end-game content on their main, or players would act like in Sword Art Online, where a large amount of them stay in the first town and a dwindling amount of players would attempt the stronger content (though without the incentive of being released from the death game SAO players had).
    AlexLightFaybalTwelie
  • HelsaHelsa
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    One of the "selling" points about permadeath gaming is it encourages realistic decision making. For example, in permadeath you couldn't say step through a door see what's in the room, die, revive, equip yourself with the proper equipment THEN step through the door again and live. To be honest permadeath actually sounds good, on paper, but can only work in a game not only where a player invests a moderate amount into their avatar, but also has a clear ending. There is an example to follow here: Minecraft. I used to play in ironman mode strictly. I could handle it and I can honestly say it made me a better player of the game, but try building a world in ironman and then die stupidly. Stupid deaths happen ALL the time, even in the real world. Well, it didn't take me long before I started making copies of my game first before playing on so I could reconstitute it if I died. Because, if you spend two months making a sea lantern factory in ironman and then die stupidly, guess what, your not having fun. At that point why bother with all the trouble and just play in Survival instead. So, now in Minecraft, I still play ironman, but those games are ones where I make the bee-est line to the Enderdragon, and once I kill it, I stop playing that game. Survival is where I make all my farms and so on the hard way and just keep playing. Mabinogi is a just keep playing kind of game.

    So the end result here is although the concept of a permadeath situation has some things of interest, Mabinogi isn't the right game for it.
    Faybal
  • FaybalFaybal
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,570
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    I also keep saying that having 1 character on a permadeath server does not drain other servers. That's like saying having Taillteann Shadow Missions drains Tara Shadow Missions.
    Firstly, I'm not even going to mention how horrible this analogy is; There is no incentive for participating in the permadeath server; there are incentives for doing the shadow missions (Dailies). These missions also add to the game.

    Secondly, The idea of a permadeath server is implausible. Nexon simply won't allow for it because how else would they make money? If the goal is to make it less Pay2Win and more Play2Win, Nexon would be confined to pushing out only cosmetic items for the server; however, upon death, these items would be removed. Therefore, it would make it less appealing to players. Who wants to buy cosmetics for NX only to lose it upon death? Who would pay for premium/VIP? The items/bonuses are minimized on these servers.
    Thirdly, You said that "Why would people be doing the harder generations" on the server in the first place. Well, if the whole point, as you claim, is to challenge the player, why wouldn't they? The benefits of successfully doing the generations could unlock transformations or titles that can benefit the player. At some point, people will reach these generations, die, and then ragequit. Simple concept. "Tweaking" the game's difficulty to match this (removing 1hko attacks) would be nearly impossible; Nexon doesn't have the time nor energy to push these out. They take months to fix bugs sometimes.

    Fourthly,
    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.
    This just shows how much you truly cannot see the presented points. Sure, you bolded some words, used bullets. Great. Doesn't at all make your points any more valid.
    You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    Don't play on the Permadeath server when your ISP is giving you lag spikes. Don't play on the Permadeath server on wifi unless you're that gutsy. It's the fun of a permadeath server to see how far you can go.
    So, you're telling us that if we get a random lag spike, it's suddenly our fault? As if we can decide when we get a lag spike? Sounds like you're confining the server to those who basically live in Cali or have the best internet. Some lag isn't even preventable because server-side lag is a thing. If Nexon has a bad day lag-wise and a lot of people die due to server-side lag, what can they do? They're not going to roll-back because that would outrage the people who didn't die; at the same time, they'll get backlash for server-side lag.
    Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide.

    You simply cannot expect to suggest a controversial idea, have people point out that this is a lacking feature, and then defend it. "Letting Nexon" figure it out won't cut it. If you wanted to defend your position that this WILL work, we need the receipts. We need the planned idea that you so vehemently defend.
    while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    Well, unless people are going to dedicate MONTHS/YEARS of time and effort to the server, It's unlikely that they can parallel the stats needed to actually take on quests. Assuming that life skills are undesirable due to the high risk, where will people get stats? Life skills offer plenty of stats and profits to be earned. However, the risk simply isn't enough for the reward.
    People spend days, weeks, and even months training skills. That's even with AP training implemented. Imagine how difficult it will be without rebirth potions or available AP. You were the one saying that people would split their time equally between Permadeath and regular servers. This is unlikely as most people would probably lose interest within a month of release. Patterns don't lie. People hardly enter Festia. Older raids such as sandworm are a joke. People realize when risk is worth the reward; this simply isn't it.

    Furthermore, I haven't even begun to swoop into the idea of currency circulation in-game or how people could bypass these ideas (Trading items to another person to prevent loss upon death, farming bots, etc). As you can see by the responses, this simply isn't a good idea by the standards of modern Mabi. I cannot fathom further explaining this; you only understand a perspective when you try to understand. I've tried to see the idea through your eyes, but alas, it simply won't work due to many reasons. With the content coming out on these servers and a server merge being pushed for by the population, Nexon would most likely not implement this idea. Let's tackle one issue at a time.

    PlatinaKokiTwelie