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Permadeath Server

Comments

  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Draech wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.

    As I've said before, you're going into this with the normal server mindset. In a hardcore server you don't need to max rank gunslinger. Hybrid Stat talents would be risky to rank because you would need 2 stats being high to get full use of it which would be a luxury for strong players who know they won't die in the first place.

    Not to mention that all of the grindy talents are generally not Combat Power related which means you can grind at foxes, spiders, raccoons, ably normal etc. It is up to the player how they decide to play on such a server but playing with the mindset of maxing everything would be a big challenge.

    As I keep mentioning about what Blissfulkill said. Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide. I never mentioned the cash shop not working and I left pets open for discussion. You really don't know what Nexon can or will do and neither do I which is why I made a suggestion. I never suggested that Nexon make separate monetization for the Permadeath server and left the idea as similar to the original server as I could think of.

    I'm not trying to be mean but so far everything you've said has already been addressed and I'm really just repeating myself here to clear misunderstandings you might have.

    So for summary
    Permadeath
    -A permadeath server would be different from a normal server and should be approached differently
    -We don't know how many people would use the server because it's not implemented
    Consequence of Dying
    -You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    -Hard to train skills should be trained by people who actually want to train them
    Nexon/Money
    -We don't know whether Nexon would be able to afford or profit from this but it is ultimately up to them to decide
    -This doesn't split the playerbase because this is a 1 character per server idea that would still be running on the 1 rebirth per week model which naturally limits how much you can do on the server with your single character

    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.

    I think you misunderstand. One of my points is that Permadeath encourages players to remain mid-game, to avoid losing everything, yet early- and mid-game content is rather limited. This means people will rather quickly finish all they can accomplish "safely," and not even attempt end-game content, for fear of losing too much. This means people will get bored in a month or less. And it's not like you can do multiple playthroughs of Mabi, since there is no class system, and very little player decision affecting any outcome.

    As for monetization, I know you did not say it, but we can safely assume some, if not a lot of the cash shop content would become pointless. Why buy gacha on the permadeath server rather than on your main, if not for the chance at OP weapons. Nao Soul Stones become pointless, so that's out. Pets become limited, Dragon Summoning Scrolls become too dangerous, and the only thing still selling would be dyes and beauty coupons. As such, it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items. That's the point I'm making.

    And for the dying part, everyone knows the consequences, and as such, players will either quit once they've done everything that's safe (see my first argument) due to the fact they'd be better off playing end-game content on their main, or players would act like in Sword Art Online, where a large amount of them stay in the first town and a dwindling amount of players would attempt the stronger content (though without the incentive of being released from the death game SAO players had).

    I understood what you meant but didn't think the part you were trying to emphasize was important enough to delve into. I've been using PoE as an example constantly and people keep progressing in that game until endgame constantly. I don't believe players would stop playing out of the fear of them dying because you simply come back after death with a bank full of gold, weapons, and things you would have stocked up on.

    Your point about not being able to do multiple playthroughs of Mabi is incredibly wrong. The most unique part of a character, in this game, is early game where you're choosing your first talent. If you play like a boring person and build up the same skills over and over because it's the safe build, you will probably have a boring time. That's honestly on you. A player could go Close Combat as a Giant, die, and restart as a Puppeteer human if they wanted. Their friends who didn't die will be waiting for them to come back and might help them powerlevel up some.

    As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe. You don't lose them. I never said you did. Only bring what you think you could go without. Players who play in a permadeath server would have to see that it's a permadeath server.
    it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items.

    You don't know this. They could run the cash shop as usual and could still make money. Not to mention this is more of a mode than an a permanent stay server. If someone was comfortable on the server, there's no reason they wouldn't use the cash shop. Nexon patched our Mabi with 100% repairs which invalidated repair protection potions. It's understandable Soul Stones would be invalidated on the Permadeath server. This also doesn't remove them from the 4 other servers that you seem to be forgetting. We can over and underestimate how much it costs to sustain a server but it's up to Nexon and I hope they consider this idea.

    A permadeath server is just that. If people were just going to be chickening out in Dunbarton, too afraid to go anywhere, I'm sure they would much rather play on the normal server. Even though this is an very unlikely scenario.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    One of the "selling" points about permadeath gaming is it encourages realistic decision making. For example, in permadeath you couldn't say step through a door see what's in the room, die, revive, equip yourself with the proper equipment THEN step through the door again and live. To be honest permadeath actually sounds good, on paper, but can only work in a game not only where a player invests a moderate amount into their avatar, but also has a clear ending. There is an example to follow here: Minecraft. I used to play in ironman mode strictly. I could handle it and I can honestly say it made me a better player of the game, but try building a world in ironman and then die stupidly. Stupid deaths happen ALL the time, even in the real world. Well, it didn't take me long before I started making copies of my game first before playing on so I could reconstitute it if I died. Because, if you spend two months making a sea lantern factory in ironman and then die stupidly, guess what, your not having fun. At that point why bother with all the trouble and just play in Survival instead. So, now in Minecraft, I still play ironman, but those games are ones where I make the bee-est line to the Enderdragon, and once I kill it, I stop playing that game. Survival is where I make all my farms and so on the hard way and just keep playing. Mabinogi is a just keep playing kind of game.

    So the end result here is although the concept of a permadeath situation has some things of interest, Mabinogi isn't the right game for it.

    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,365
    Posts: 355
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.

    As I've said before, you're going into this with the normal server mindset. In a hardcore server you don't need to max rank gunslinger. Hybrid Stat talents would be risky to rank because you would need 2 stats being high to get full use of it which would be a luxury for strong players who know they won't die in the first place.

    Not to mention that all of the grindy talents are generally not Combat Power related which means you can grind at foxes, spiders, raccoons, ably normal etc. It is up to the player how they decide to play on such a server but playing with the mindset of maxing everything would be a big challenge.

    As I keep mentioning about what Blissfulkill said. Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide. I never mentioned the cash shop not working and I left pets open for discussion. You really don't know what Nexon can or will do and neither do I which is why I made a suggestion. I never suggested that Nexon make separate monetization for the Permadeath server and left the idea as similar to the original server as I could think of.

    I'm not trying to be mean but so far everything you've said has already been addressed and I'm really just repeating myself here to clear misunderstandings you might have.

    So for summary
    Permadeath
    -A permadeath server would be different from a normal server and should be approached differently
    -We don't know how many people would use the server because it's not implemented
    Consequence of Dying
    -You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    -Hard to train skills should be trained by people who actually want to train them
    Nexon/Money
    -We don't know whether Nexon would be able to afford or profit from this but it is ultimately up to them to decide
    -This doesn't split the playerbase because this is a 1 character per server idea that would still be running on the 1 rebirth per week model which naturally limits how much you can do on the server with your single character

    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.

    I think you misunderstand. One of my points is that Permadeath encourages players to remain mid-game, to avoid losing everything, yet early- and mid-game content is rather limited. This means people will rather quickly finish all they can accomplish "safely," and not even attempt end-game content, for fear of losing too much. This means people will get bored in a month or less. And it's not like you can do multiple playthroughs of Mabi, since there is no class system, and very little player decision affecting any outcome.

    As for monetization, I know you did not say it, but we can safely assume some, if not a lot of the cash shop content would become pointless. Why buy gacha on the permadeath server rather than on your main, if not for the chance at OP weapons. Nao Soul Stones become pointless, so that's out. Pets become limited, Dragon Summoning Scrolls become too dangerous, and the only thing still selling would be dyes and beauty coupons. As such, it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items. That's the point I'm making.

    And for the dying part, everyone knows the consequences, and as such, players will either quit once they've done everything that's safe (see my first argument) due to the fact they'd be better off playing end-game content on their main, or players would act like in Sword Art Online, where a large amount of them stay in the first town and a dwindling amount of players would attempt the stronger content (though without the incentive of being released from the death game SAO players had).

    I understood what you meant but didn't think the part you were trying to emphasize was important enough to delve into. I've been using PoE as an example constantly and people keep progressing in that game until endgame constantly. I don't believe players would stop playing out of the fear of them dying because you simply come back after death with a bank full of gold, weapons, and things you would have stocked up on.

    Your point about not being able to do multiple playthroughs of Mabi is incredibly wrong. The most unique part of a character, in this game, is early game where you're choosing your first talent. If you play like a boring person and build up the same skills over and over because it's the safe build, you will probably have a boring time. That's honestly on you. A player could go Close Combat as a Giant, die, and restart as a Puppeteer human if they wanted. Their friends who didn't die will be waiting for them to come back and might help them powerlevel up some.

    As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe. You don't lose them. I never said you did. Only bring what you think you could go without. Players who play in a permadeath server would have to see that it's a permadeath server.
    it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items.

    You don't know this. They could run the cash shop as usual and could still make money. Not to mention this is more of a mode than an a permanent stay server. If someone was comfortable on the server, there's no reason they wouldn't use the cash shop. Nexon patched our Mabi with 100% repairs which invalidated repair protection potions. It's understandable Soul Stones would be invalidated on the Permadeath server. This also doesn't remove them from the 4 other servers that you seem to be forgetting. We can over and underestimate how much it costs to sustain a server but it's up to Nexon and I hope they consider this idea.

    A permadeath server is just that. If people were just going to be chickening out in Dunbarton, too afraid to go anywhere, I'm sure they would much rather play on the normal server. Even though this is an very unlikely scenario.

    I think we're disagreeing on one thing: though I'm not familiar with Path of Exile, I've played enough Shiren the Wanderer to know "permadeath" works well when you can put away your best gear for further use. Though this doesn't prevent Mabi players from doing the same, Milletians become strong through stats mostly, and equipment is a bonus; the other "permadeath" games I know are the opposite. i.e. Giving an Apprentice Warrior two Celtic Royal Knight Swords will not enable them to progress much, since the real damage modifiers lie in their base stats, which they get from leveling their skills. On the other hand, in Shiren the Wanderer, levelling is nice, but your gear is what really matters.

    With Mabi's gameplay centered on levelling skills to get stronger, the loss of this progress will put players back far more than in other games, where your goal is to amass gold and end-game gear. At its core, the gameplay mechanics of Mabi are not meant for such a playstyle, and my argument is that Nexon would have to change some things to make it work; thus, why they need to make it profitable/sustainable (without regards to the revenue of the other servers).
    Cho wrote: »
    As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe.
    I don't understand your reasoning. My belief is that everyone will have a main on a seperate server. As such, if they've got 100$ to drop on the newest gacha, there's no reason for them to spend it on their permadeath character, when they could get a chance at the featured items on their main. And, disregarding a few wealthy exceptions, no one would spend on gacha for both their main and permadeath character.

    Edit:
    Cho wrote: »
    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.

    The difference lies in the fact in most permadeath games, you dismiss content to avoid dying. For example, not looting a room because you aren't sure you're capable of handling its content. Mabi is built differently: dungeons are linear (you cannot skip a room) and there is little story content whose fights you can bypass. Fight-related decisions, or decisions to grind more before attempting mandatory content (like getting the Thunder pages to get the skill) isn't decision-based, it's just delaying the inevitable.
    Faybal
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    edited January 11, 2019
    Faybal wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    I also keep saying that having 1 character on a permadeath server does not drain other servers. That's like saying having Taillteann Shadow Missions drains Tara Shadow Missions.
    Firstly, I'm not even going to mention how horrible this analogy is; There is no incentive for participating in the permadeath server; there are incentives for doing the shadow missions (Dailies). These missions also add to the game.

    Secondly, The idea of a permadeath server is implausible. Nexon simply won't allow for it because how else would they make money? If the goal is to make it less Pay2Win and more Play2Win, Nexon would be confined to pushing out only cosmetic items for the server; however, upon death, these items would be removed. Therefore, it would make it less appealing to players. Who wants to buy cosmetics for NX only to lose it upon death? Who would pay for premium/VIP? The items/bonuses are minimized on these servers.
    Thirdly, You said that "Why would people be doing the harder generations" on the server in the first place. Well, if the whole point, as you claim, is to challenge the player, why wouldn't they? The benefits of successfully doing the generations could unlock transformations or titles that can benefit the player. At some point, people will reach these generations, die, and then ragequit. Simple concept. "Tweaking" the game's difficulty to match this (removing 1hko attacks) would be nearly impossible; Nexon doesn't have the time nor energy to push these out. They take months to fix bugs sometimes.

    Fourthly,
    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.
    This just shows how much you truly cannot see the presented points. Sure, you bolded some words, used bullets. Great. Doesn't at all make your points any more valid.
    You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    Don't play on the Permadeath server when your ISP is giving you lag spikes. Don't play on the Permadeath server on wifi unless you're that gutsy. It's the fun of a permadeath server to see how far you can go.
    So, you're telling us that if we get a random lag spike, it's suddenly our fault? As if we can decide when we get a lag spike? Sounds like you're confining the server to those who basically live in Cali or have the best internet. Some lag isn't even preventable because server-side lag is a thing. If Nexon has a bad day lag-wise and a lot of people die due to server-side lag, what can they do? They're not going to roll-back because that would outrage the people who didn't die; at the same time, they'll get backlash for server-side lag.
    Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide.

    You simply cannot expect to suggest a controversial idea, have people point out that this is a lacking feature, and then defend it. "Letting Nexon" figure it out won't cut it. If you wanted to defend your position that this WILL work, we need the receipts. We need the planned idea that you so vehemently defend.
    while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    Well, unless people are going to dedicate MONTHS/YEARS of time and effort to the server, It's unlikely that they can parallel the stats needed to actually take on quests. Assuming that life skills are undesirable due to the high risk, where will people get stats? Life skills offer plenty of stats and profits to be earned. However, the risk simply isn't enough for the reward.
    People spend days, weeks, and even months training skills. That's even with AP training implemented. Imagine how difficult it will be without rebirth potions or available AP. You were the one saying that people would split their time equally between Permadeath and regular servers. This is unlikely as most people would probably lose interest within a month of release. Patterns don't lie. People hardly enter Festia. Older raids such as sandworm are a joke. People realize when risk is worth the reward; this simply isn't it.

    Furthermore, I haven't even begun to swoop into the idea of currency circulation in-game or how people could bypass these ideas (Trading items to another person to prevent loss upon death, farming bots, etc). As you can see by the responses, this simply isn't a good idea by the standards of modern Mabi. I cannot fathom further explaining this; you only understand a perspective when you try to understand. I've tried to see the idea through your eyes, but alas, it simply won't work due to many reasons. With the content coming out on these servers and a server merge being pushed for by the population, Nexon would most likely not implement this idea. Let's tackle one issue at a time.


    1. You didn't get the analogy. That's okay. Basically it's not a zero-sum game. Do you know what that means? I'm saying that having a Permadeath server doesn't not take away from the population of the other servers. People will go back to the other servers when they want to. Their character in the Permadeath server would be more like a "run".

    2. Already addressed

    3. What I said was "
    For a player to take on G21 or G22 knowing there's something that can oneshot you would be really risky so it's up to you whether you want to risk. If you're doing G21 or G22 for the first time on a hardcore server then my question would be "why???"

    Doing G21 or G22 for the first time. First Time. It's your risk but it's safer to finish the generation in a normal server than to tackle it on a permadeath server. Up to the individual.

    4.
    This just shows how much you truly cannot see the presented points. Sure, you bolded some words, used bullets. Great. Doesn't at all make your points any more valid.

    Please use reading comprehension skills and critical thinking. I'm not asking much.
    So, you're telling us that if we get a random lag spike, it's suddenly our fault? As if we can decide when we get a lag spike? Sounds like you're confining the server to those who basically live in Cali or have the best internet. Some lag isn't even preventable because server-side lag is a thing. If Nexon has a bad day lag-wise and a lot of people die due to server-side lag, what can they do? They're not going to roll-back because that would outrage the people who didn't die; at the same time, they'll get backlash for server-side lag.
    No rollbacks. If you're experiencing lag on the permadeath server then hmmmm... I don't know... log out??? Things happen. Life happens. etc. You can't cry if you choose to stick around while the server is doing backflips and then be mad at Nexon if you die. And I would expect you as a reasonable person on the forums to be one of the people quelling the outrage. Doing your part as a community member and not just letting Nexon take heat because some guy decided to stay on the laggy death server.
    You simply cannot expect to suggest a controversial idea, have people point out that this is a lacking feature, and then defend it. "Letting Nexon" figure it out won't cut it. If you wanted to defend your position that this WILL work, we need the receipts. We need the planned idea that you so vehemently defend.

    This isn't controversial. Nexon is the big boss at the end of the day. It's not my job to do their accounting. This forum is simply throw an idea into a hat and sometimes people comment on it. So far all of the comments have been the same and I've been answering them but then new people appear who didn't read the previous posts and I have to explain over again. I'm not "vehemently defending". I'm just being extremely patient and trying to clear misunderstandings.
    Well, unless people are going to dedicate MONTHS/YEARS of time and effort to the server, It's unlikely that they can parallel the stats needed to actually take on quests. Assuming that life skills are undesirable due to the high risk, where will people get stats? Life skills offer plenty of stats and profits to be earned. However, the risk simply isn't enough for the reward.
    People spend days, weeks, and even months training skills. That's even with AP training implemented. Imagine how difficult it will be without rebirth potions or available AP. You were the one saying that people would split their time equally between Permadeath and regular servers. This is unlikely as most people would probably lose interest within a month of release. Patterns don't lie. People hardly enter Festia. Older raids such as sandworm are a joke. People realize when risk is worth the reward; this simply isn't it.

    Already addressed but I'll say it again. Risk is up to the risk taker. Life Skillers can manage with little to no risk by buying materials or gathering in safe areas. What life skillers can make will be dictated by the progress of the players in the server.
    Furthermore, I haven't even begun to swoop into the idea of currency circulation in-game or how people could bypass these ideas (Trading items to another person to prevent loss upon death, farming bots, etc). As you can see by the responses, this simply isn't a good idea by the standards of modern Mabi. I cannot fathom further explaining this; you only understand a perspective when you try to understand. I've tried to see the idea through your eyes, but alas, it simply won't work due to many reasons. With the content coming out on these servers and a server merge being pushed for by the population, Nexon would most likely not implement this idea. Let's tackle one issue at a time.

    Trading items to your friends so you don't lose them is fine. You don't have them when you die and you can't trade when dead anyway. Report bots like any other bot. Multiple issues can be tackled at the same time. Your whole post seems very aggressive. It's upsetting because considering you've been here for a while liking other posts but you didn't take the time read any of mine.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
    Posts: 163
    Member
    Draech wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Draech wrote: »
    @everyone Any chance you guys could use Spoiler tags to minimize quoting? I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the mass warnings from a few months ago.

    As for the Permadeath server, I don't think it's worthwhile for the following reasons:
    - The game is centered around putting in great effort for somewhat small rewards. Life skills, Ninja and Dual Guns are all meant to be arduous to rank, but with a lot of time and effort, you can achieve the max rank for each. Permadeath would mean no one would try getting Dans for those, 'cause you'd risk losing it all because of one unlucky fight.
    - Contrary to most MMOs, quests are non-repeatable. That means someone who clears the easier generations and quests would be forced to either repeat dailies with little incentive, or attempt the harder content, at the risk of losing everything. Kinda like in real life, the fear of losing something is what keeps so many people away from action, and leads to boring repetitiveness.
    - As Blissfulkill mentioned, most modern games aren't about playing anymore; it's all about monetization. If Nexon needs to create new cash items for the Permadeath server (such as a protection potion that protects one of your weapons from death, or paid talent rebirths that prevent the talent's skills from unranking), then Mabinogi and Permadeath Mabi become two seperate games, both with reduced revenue opportunities.

    As I've said before, you're going into this with the normal server mindset. In a hardcore server you don't need to max rank gunslinger. Hybrid Stat talents would be risky to rank because you would need 2 stats being high to get full use of it which would be a luxury for strong players who know they won't die in the first place.

    Not to mention that all of the grindy talents are generally not Combat Power related which means you can grind at foxes, spiders, raccoons, ably normal etc. It is up to the player how they decide to play on such a server but playing with the mindset of maxing everything would be a big challenge.

    As I keep mentioning about what Blissfulkill said. Monetization and profit are up to Nexon to decide. I never mentioned the cash shop not working and I left pets open for discussion. You really don't know what Nexon can or will do and neither do I which is why I made a suggestion. I never suggested that Nexon make separate monetization for the Permadeath server and left the idea as similar to the original server as I could think of.

    I'm not trying to be mean but so far everything you've said has already been addressed and I'm really just repeating myself here to clear misunderstandings you might have.

    So for summary
    Permadeath
    -A permadeath server would be different from a normal server and should be approached differently
    -We don't know how many people would use the server because it's not implemented
    Consequence of Dying
    -You would know what you're getting into so laggy internet would not be an excuse for death
    -Hard to train skills should be trained by people who actually want to train them
    Nexon/Money
    -We don't know whether Nexon would be able to afford or profit from this but it is ultimately up to them to decide
    -This doesn't split the playerbase because this is a 1 character per server idea that would still be running on the 1 rebirth per week model which naturally limits how much you can do on the server with your single character

    I assume the average forum users by NO MEANS represent the majority of the Mabinogi playerbase so even if I get dissent here if it's the same 3 points being answered over and over, it means that there isn't much wrong with my idea. Honestly the thing to do would be to add your own ideas (not you Draech specifically but everyone that has been replying) or discuss what could be done to improve the idea rather than to keep saying it won't work because Nexon.

    I think you misunderstand. One of my points is that Permadeath encourages players to remain mid-game, to avoid losing everything, yet early- and mid-game content is rather limited. This means people will rather quickly finish all they can accomplish "safely," and not even attempt end-game content, for fear of losing too much. This means people will get bored in a month or less. And it's not like you can do multiple playthroughs of Mabi, since there is no class system, and very little player decision affecting any outcome.

    As for monetization, I know you did not say it, but we can safely assume some, if not a lot of the cash shop content would become pointless. Why buy gacha on the permadeath server rather than on your main, if not for the chance at OP weapons. Nao Soul Stones become pointless, so that's out. Pets become limited, Dragon Summoning Scrolls become too dangerous, and the only thing still selling would be dyes and beauty coupons. As such, it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items. That's the point I'm making.

    And for the dying part, everyone knows the consequences, and as such, players will either quit once they've done everything that's safe (see my first argument) due to the fact they'd be better off playing end-game content on their main, or players would act like in Sword Art Online, where a large amount of them stay in the first town and a dwindling amount of players would attempt the stronger content (though without the incentive of being released from the death game SAO players had).

    I understood what you meant but didn't think the part you were trying to emphasize was important enough to delve into. I've been using PoE as an example constantly and people keep progressing in that game until endgame constantly. I don't believe players would stop playing out of the fear of them dying because you simply come back after death with a bank full of gold, weapons, and things you would have stocked up on.

    Your point about not being able to do multiple playthroughs of Mabi is incredibly wrong. The most unique part of a character, in this game, is early game where you're choosing your first talent. If you play like a boring person and build up the same skills over and over because it's the safe build, you will probably have a boring time. That's honestly on you. A player could go Close Combat as a Giant, die, and restart as a Puppeteer human if they wanted. Their friends who didn't die will be waiting for them to come back and might help them powerlevel up some.

    As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe. You don't lose them. I never said you did. Only bring what you think you could go without. Players who play in a permadeath server would have to see that it's a permadeath server.
    it's obvious Nexon would have to find some other way to make the permadeath server sustainable, if not profitable. They'd do that either by locking it to VIP users only, or by adding new "server-only" cash items.

    You don't know this. They could run the cash shop as usual and could still make money. Not to mention this is more of a mode than an a permanent stay server. If someone was comfortable on the server, there's no reason they wouldn't use the cash shop. Nexon patched our Mabi with 100% repairs which invalidated repair protection potions. It's understandable Soul Stones would be invalidated on the Permadeath server. This also doesn't remove them from the 4 other servers that you seem to be forgetting. We can over and underestimate how much it costs to sustain a server but it's up to Nexon and I hope they consider this idea.

    A permadeath server is just that. If people were just going to be chickening out in Dunbarton, too afraid to go anywhere, I'm sure they would much rather play on the normal server. Even though this is an very unlikely scenario.

    I think we're disagreeing on one thing: though I'm not familiar with Path of Exile, I've played enough Shiren the Wanderer to know "permadeath" works well when you can put away your best gear for further use. Though this doesn't prevent Mabi players from doing the same, Milletians become strong through stats mostly, and equipment is a bonus; the other "permadeath" games I know are the opposite. i.e. Giving an Apprentice Warrior two Celtic Royal Knight Swords will not enable them to progress much, since the real damage modifiers lie in their base stats, which they get from leveling their skills. On the other hand, in Shiren the Wanderer, levelling is nice, but your gear is what really matters.

    With Mabi's gameplay centered on levelling skills to get stronger, the loss of this progress will put players back far more than in other games, where your goal is to amass gold and end-game gear. At its core, the gameplay mechanics of Mabi are not meant for such a playstyle, and my argument is that Nexon would have to change some things to make it work; thus, why they need to make it profitable/sustainable (without regards to the revenue of the other servers).
    Cho wrote: »
    As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe.
    I don't understand your reasoning. My belief is that everyone will have a main on a seperate server. As such, if they've got 100$ to drop on the newest gacha, there's no reason for them to spend it on their permadeath character, when they could get a chance at the featured items on their main. And, disregarding a few wealthy exceptions, no one would spend on gacha for both their main and permadeath character.

    Edit:
    Cho wrote: »
    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.

    The difference lies in the fact in most permadeath games, you dismiss content to avoid dying. For example, not looting a room because you aren't sure you're capable of handling its content. Mabi is built differently: dungeons are linear (you cannot skip a room) and there is little story content whose fights you can bypass. Fight-related decisions, or decisions to grind more before attempting mandatory content (like getting the Thunder pages to get the skill) isn't decision-based, it's just delaying the inevitable.
    With Mabi's gameplay centered on levelling skills to get stronger, the loss of this progress will put players back far more than in other games, where your goal is to amass gold and end-game gear. At its core, the gameplay mechanics of Mabi are not meant for such a playstyle, and my argument is that Nexon would have to change some things to make it work; thus, why they need to make it profitable/sustainable (without regards to the revenue of the other servers).

    I agree with Mabinogi being more focused around your character than your gear but I disagree with you about how much of an effect gear has on your capabilities. Celtic Royal Knight Sword are definitely better than starting with 2 unupgraded short swords. Personally I would pick an upgraded weapon with damage enchants and good balance as a starter weapon to leave in the bank for fast leveling.
    I don't understand your reasoning. My belief is that everyone will have a main on a seperate server. As such, if they've got 100$ to drop on the newest gacha, there's no reason for them to spend it on their permadeath character, when they could get a chance at the featured items on their main. And, disregarding a few wealthy exceptions, no one would spend on gacha for both their main and permadeath character.

    Sure people spend money on their main. I'm sure some people would also spend money on this server I'm proposing but that's really not a point I'm trying to make. People would be playing this not as an alternative to the main server but as an option fun side server that they can log on at any time for the glory of it. Monetization and Gacha is really irrelevant. Cash shop there if people want to use it. That's all that matters imho.
    The difference lies in the fact in most permadeath games, you dismiss content to avoid dying. For example, not looting a room because you aren't sure you're capable of handling its content. Mabi is built differently: dungeons are linear (you cannot skip a room) and there is little story content whose fights you can bypass. Fight-related decisions, or decisions to grind more before attempting mandatory content (like getting the Thunder pages to get the skill) isn't decision-based, it's just delaying the inevitable.

    You can use a wing of goddess to get you out of a dungeon. Fight until you can't and then run. For story content, I would imagine you know what's coming. Don't do it if it's too hard for your character. Or take the risk and be one of the few characters on the server with Crusader Skills. Up to you.

    Thunder is NOT mandatory. If the server were real I would tell you to get the pages when you're ready or get a party together first. Otherwise, go train something else. Again you're another person thinking "I need to max all my skills" because that's how players approach it on the servers now. A few deaths and restarts would fix it but we can't do that and all we can do is go through hypothetical situations. Having Thunder as a mage would be very valuable and you could even restock on Thunder Pages in the off-chance you die.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Crafting is just ONE of the weak points of your idea.

    Consider one of the problems that plague many games; lag spikes. What if you were to die simply because a massive lag spike decided to hit you at the worst opportunity? Good luck finding someone who wants to try this idea again after that.

    And there are also skills designed to kill you in one hit if you miss the timing (ex; Talvish's Judgement Blade Burst skill thingy; he also likes to make it so you often are unable to defend against it.)

    The issue boils down to poor programming. No amount of "strategy" or "preparation" can overcome poor programming.

    I thought you would say something crucial lol. I'll paste what I typed earlier:

    If you're on the Permadeath server you would know the rules. You die, and use the items in your bank to start over. This "I worked so hard on my character and now I died" situation would mostly be your fault. Don't play on the Permadeath server when your ISP is giving you lag spikes. Don't play on the Permadeath server on wifi unless you're that gutsy. It's the fun of a permadeath server to see how far you can go.

    I'll add: Path of Exile is my only example of a Permadeath Server aside from the now shutdown Wizardry Online so I'll be referencing it again. In PoE if you lag and die, you still lose the character. It happens. Your friends can help you start over. If you don't have any, your bank can help you start over. It would work the same way. If you're thinking "What if I'm level 30000 with R1 everything and I died" My response would be, "Wow dude congrats, you lived for 30000 and didn't die. Sucks that you died. Better luck next time."

    For things like Talvish's 1 hit kill which is probably from G21 or G22 (I haven't gotten around to that yet, don't appreciate the spoilers) For a player to take on G21 or G22 knowing there's something that can oneshot you would be really risky so it's up to you whether you want to risk. If you're doing G21 or G22 for the first time on a hardcore server then my question would be "why???"

    You still miss the bare minimum; programming.

    I know nothing of "Path of Exile", and i'm not going to pretend like I do. I know that trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges, though.

    You still don't understand the problem with lag, and if you really think what's left of this playerbase could be patient in the scenarios you have provided, then you clearly have not played long at all.

    As for the spoilers, I'm going to just say that with a topic like this, you should expect people bringing up specific parts of the game, like a part of the storyline you have not yet reached.
  • FaybalFaybal
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    There are just too many issues with your whole concept for it to be even remotely coherent. At the end of the day, it's a broken concept trying to be applied to a broken game. Not gonna lie, Mabi is pretty broken. Therefore, I just feel as if this wouldn't work regardless if everything did make sense; the population of the game is already dwindling. Logically, considering how much it costs to run 1 server, let alone 4, it wouldn't be financially beneficial for Nexon to create this permadeath server. While it's an interesting idea, it has too many logical fallacies and it is overall incompatible with Mabi. It can and has worked on other games, but Mabi simply isn't the place for this concept.

    My apologies if I came off as hostile toward you. It was not my intention, I just get a little too passionate when I write sometimes. No hard feelings.
    Also, I liked other's posts because I was agreeing with their reasoning.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    I honestly believe that while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    I don't think Nexon is as greedy as people think. I won't say names but the publisher who held, the now shutdown, SMT: Imagine was way greedier, the publisher who used to hold Rumble Fighter was way worse with customer support. Nexon often transferred games and accounts to other publishers rather than shutting them down completely like Audition and Dragon Nest. Nexon hasn't given me too many problems over the years at all and I like how you can still enjoy the game without needing to pay.

    Imagine how much money was lost by removing the old Pay2Rebirth system. Or even lowering the rebirth timer to 1week for everyone rather than 1week for premium cards and 3weeks for free users. Again this is just an idea and yeah, if Nexon takes the idea and it doesn't pan out, they could just remove the server and make up for lost costs with Gacha and Recolored Pet sales.

    Imagine how much money was gained by providing something people could play. They couldn't make money off a closed game. Let's look at a couple of things.

    Just because (Insert bad person's name here) isn't as bad as Hitler, doesn't mean that person is any less "evil". The lesser of two evils is still evil, and it is an emotionally charged argument to distract whether or not something or someone is bad. This is something very touchy for many people who like these games; we like Dark Souls for being fair and moderately difficult.

    -Vindictus' +11 Enchantment stone
    -Mabinogi's $6 wig coupon storage.
    -Reforges
    -Most of the manuals that could be tossed into the game were instead tossed into the gachapon.
    -Avenger enchants were only for weapons, which make avenger accessories quite expensive.
    -Haunted, Creepy, and Eerie were gachapon and NA only enchants.
    -Basically, the entire system of Beauty Coupons effectively discourages purchasing new ones.
    -Pets basically provided heals that outdoes most people's healing capabilities.
    -Reforges are essentially the only way to have archery be capable enough to bring to use in lieu of other talents.
    -The (Second) best armours are way too easily available from Gachapon

    This suggestion of yours relies on the notion that Nexon wouldn't sell them on these servers.

    Even then, this also has to consider the past development cycle, AKA the actual game changes. Namely, that Nexon switches out directors every 5 months. To which you need to distinguish between the localization team here, and the people who actually design the game. Hardcore for POE only works because it is essentially adding modifiers to the base version of the game people play normally, with slight variations.

    This wouldn't work with Current Mabinogi, and keeping the two separate would either constrain future design decisions for both versions (Not fun for anyone) or require two separate versions with not only modifiers but entirely different approaches to the design. None of which I believe would sound pleasing to Nexon. This is perhaps my best argument here.

    To add on, this can work with regards to a dungeon you cannot revive in (Phantasm *coughs*), or a new game.

    Yeah Nexon's not that bad. My point is that everything you complain that Nexon monetizes, there's many other games doing it worse. It's like the saying "the frog in the well knows nothing of the ocean". Nexon is not even a remotely bad company compared to a publisher that tries to sell in-game gold, or a publisher that sells a broken weapon for 55 USD (This actually happened in SMT:I)

    POE has been making some big changes to their skill gems that could, in a game that has a lot of factors, upset the balanced of gameplay for players. Mabi still feels like Mabi despite the changes over the years, nothing has been TOO major even the Dynamic combat update.

    Also I'm not suggesting Nexon not sell pets and cosmetics on the server but I do believe sales would be less on that server. Archery is fine for normal use. Most of the time when players talk about Archery being bad, they're talking about high-level end-game stuff and comparing it to the most powerful talents and skills. Archery has enough merit in just being a different playstyle, if you believe it needs buffs that's another issue but reforges are absolutely not necessary. Helpful maybe but not necessary.

    Also Vindictus isn't a thing like Dark Souls outside of it being an action RPG. If anything it's more like Dragon Nest or one of those hack and slash action games like a Dynasty Warriors game with less mobs.

    I also keep saying that having 1 character on a permadeath server does not drain other servers. That's like saying having Taillteann Shadow Missions drains Tara Shadow Missions. It's
    A lot of comments seem to be the same "nexon loves money so they wont do it" and I keep answering that with "if they want to do it they'll do it, that's why this is a suggestion not a demand"

    Do you really not understand what a fallacious argument that is, saying "Nexon is not that bad", versus saying "Nexon wouldn't do that"? I could say of my coworker, who stole food from a puppy, "Hey, he's at least not Ted Bundy!" Except this deflects the arguments to another example entirely, that doesn't dismiss the fact that my coworker is a jerk for stealing food from a puppy.

    Apologies, but I think that example should clarify why it is bad logic.

    I wasn't saying it was going to drain players, but the opposite. People simply wouldn't play it.

    Mabinogi is a game requiring years of investment. With Terraria and Path of Exile, those games are far more heavily reliant on equipment; this is why monetization doesn't work for POE, because it would only anger the playerbase. The investment we lose would not be equipment, but years worth of progress.

    With something like Dark Souls or Terraria, the things we lose are far more manageable than a Mabinogi character, and having great loss may encourage caution, but it would also encourage people quitting. There is no quick way to power in Mabinogi, and such a steep loss would make most veterans leave without significant changes. Dark Souls may be difficult, but the steep loss in souls isn't so much as to keep one from playing.

    In particular, I would recommend much more experience rewards, and much less experience required, alongside wholesale AP reduction costs.

    In terms of skills, we had significant changes to playstyle regarding Bash, as well as several AOEs like Windmill be eschewed for Chains, snapcast fireballs, and such. How hydra and hide is how I handle certain content, or how Nexon neglects talents like Archery to be reforge reliant to Fighter being absolutely abyssmal, or how about puppetry? Alchemy? It is not at all fundementally the same game, because those tricks have been rendered near obsolete the higher leveled a player is.

    I was comparing Vindictus, not merely in physical gameplay, but also because of the difficulty spike overall. Something that has been exploited to sell Goddess Graces as Arcade machines sold continues, alongside just bad design with raid bosses (See Kraken in particular).

    Nexon wouldn't do it, precisely because it wouldn't make them money. "If they wanted to, they could?" They don't, because it is fair to assume it wouldn't make money, for the reasons I listed previously.
    FaybalTwelie
  • ChoCho
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Pick up EVERYTHING > Sell to NPC > do PTJ > do Commerce > Run from bandits if it's too much to handle. Eventually you're in Dunbarton crafting with a party that says B>Finest Leathers. You may NEVER see things like the Soluna Blade in a permadeath server but if someone has it, you know they went through a lot to get it.

    First of all, plenty of people do that. It is not a feasible idea with how you have it set up. Your server would be emptier than the pvp arenas.

    Have you ever ranked Magic Craft, Blacksmithing or Engineering? Those skills are beasts to rank, master and dan in general. You're not going to have crafters.

    Is people not crafting really the weak pillar of my idea? I believe people would craft. (We could go back and forth forever on this.) You're not explaining how it's not feasible. Yes, those specific life skills are incredibly tedious but if no one wants to max out those skills, the server simply won't have access to items crafters of that level could make.

    -Everyone doesn't need to be able to max out every single skills.
    -Doing that would be incredibly challenging
    -The server doesn't need R1 Dan 3 Crafters
    -If someone DID make it to R1 Dan 3, maybe they should leave the gathering to combat oriented players/ be escorted if they really want to Hillwen mine or gather shyllien.

    Like I've said a lot earlier, this would be a different experience. Familiar yet different. Thinking about a things from a normal server perspective might not work. In a normal server players might ram their against a roadblock until it breaks but on a hardcore server you would have to think, be cautious, not be greedy, and it would be optional. Being social would be valuable. Guilds would be valuable. Party play would be valuable.

    You seem to be missing a crucial point that everyone else (me included) is painfully aware of.

    I'm gauging whether to expend the effort to help explain it, or not.

    Crafting is just ONE of the weak points of your idea.

    Consider one of the problems that plague many games; lag spikes. What if you were to die simply because a massive lag spike decided to hit you at the worst opportunity? Good luck finding someone who wants to try this idea again after that.

    And there are also skills designed to kill you in one hit if you miss the timing (ex; Talvish's Judgement Blade Burst skill thingy; he also likes to make it so you often are unable to defend against it.)

    The issue boils down to poor programming. No amount of "strategy" or "preparation" can overcome poor programming.

    I thought you would say something crucial lol. I'll paste what I typed earlier:

    If you're on the Permadeath server you would know the rules. You die, and use the items in your bank to start over. This "I worked so hard on my character and now I died" situation would mostly be your fault. Don't play on the Permadeath server when your ISP is giving you lag spikes. Don't play on the Permadeath server on wifi unless you're that gutsy. It's the fun of a permadeath server to see how far you can go.

    I'll add: Path of Exile is my only example of a Permadeath Server aside from the now shutdown Wizardry Online so I'll be referencing it again. In PoE if you lag and die, you still lose the character. It happens. Your friends can help you start over. If you don't have any, your bank can help you start over. It would work the same way. If you're thinking "What if I'm level 30000 with R1 everything and I died" My response would be, "Wow dude congrats, you lived for 30000 and didn't die. Sucks that you died. Better luck next time."

    For things like Talvish's 1 hit kill which is probably from G21 or G22 (I haven't gotten around to that yet, don't appreciate the spoilers) For a player to take on G21 or G22 knowing there's something that can oneshot you would be really risky so it's up to you whether you want to risk. If you're doing G21 or G22 for the first time on a hardcore server then my question would be "why???"

    You still miss the bare minimum; programming.

    I know nothing of "Path of Exile", and i'm not going to pretend like I do. I know that trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges, though.

    You still don't understand the problem with lag, and if you really think what's left of this playerbase could be patient in the scenarios you have provided, then you clearly have not played long at all.

    As for the spoilers, I'm going to just say that with a topic like this, you should expect people bringing up specific parts of the game, like a part of the storyline you have not yet reached.
    You know nothing about PoE. You would also know nothing about the comparison. I'm not asking your to download and play the game but I left context. Good Luck.

    Lag isn't as bad as it used to be coming from someone not in Cali where it's lagless.

    Not sure what you mean by programming but as much as the devs are making new events, I'm sure they can change the Wait for Rescue button into a Restart button.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    I agree with Mabinogi being more focused around your character than your gear but I disagree with you about how much of an effect gear has on your capabilities. Celtic Royal Knight Sword are definitely better than starting with 2 unupgraded short swords. Personally I would pick an upgraded weapon with damage enchants and good balance as a starter weapon to leave in the bank for fast leveling.

    You didn't even acknowledge his argument on how an extremely steep loss discourages people from attempting permadeath. You just disagreed on the gear issue by a minor extent....

    facepalm.jpg

    I think the issue here is you telling others how wise players would attempt surpassing certain obstacles, versus us explaining how players would actually react.
    Faybal
  • ChoCho
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    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    That's a real slippery slope there. No offence but I don't believe for a second that people will abandon the other servers because a single Hardcore server appears. I personally like to make a lot of characters on MMOs. It's fun to test and try things out. I won't deny that there are people who are completionists that like to finished what they started to 100% but I don't think players like me are uncommon either. Nexon might love money but a Hardcore server doesn't stop people from spending on Alexina or Mari. Some people might even spend on the Hardcore server but it's really up to the individual.

    I don't know the specifics of server costs but that's the reason I'm posting here in the first place. It's up to Nexon and DevCat whether they think they can afford OR even WANT this idea. We could all support the idea of a Hardcore server and Nexon could be like "No. Too Expensive." and that's fine. I at least want to have tried suggesting this.

    It is a slippery, and you are right. The more likely scenario is that the server itself is closed down, rather, beneath the likelihood of it never being released. There's the cost of maintaining it. There's also profit generated.

    Mabinogi is not by any means a fair game with its cash shop model. It is imperative to think of how Nexon approaches the Gachapon issue, because that is by far the largest source of revenue. Selling power drives away hardcore players, and it has driven away dedicated players. This chipped away at the original population, and now the mindset of the average player is much different than Mabinogi's humble beginnings.

    I say Nexon improved, but I only ever mean that in regards to the North American branch. Support has gotten much better, but the game itself has gotten much worse over time. The developers implemented some particularly devastating gameplay mechanics and designs.

    Given how a hardcore permadeath server would attract people who thrive on a fair experience, and Nexon's track record and the reason for their track record, I vouch for myself having no faith in this working.

    Your line "Because of Mabinogi I think this would be a great idea" is something I sympathize with. I understand why you think that. Yet, I believe wholeheartedly this is impossible with the current game and especially the freemium model in regards to how Nexon has and will likely always approach it, and genuinely believe it is best reserved for an entirely new game sharing Mabinogi's mechanics.

    I honestly believe that while reforges are powerful, they aren't necessary. You can do a lot without reforges and people not buying reforges on a hardcore server wouldn't stop people from buying them on the other 4 servers.

    I don't think Nexon is as greedy as people think. I won't say names but the publisher who held, the now shutdown, SMT: Imagine was way greedier, the publisher who used to hold Rumble Fighter was way worse with customer support. Nexon often transferred games and accounts to other publishers rather than shutting them down completely like Audition and Dragon Nest. Nexon hasn't given me too many problems over the years at all and I like how you can still enjoy the game without needing to pay.

    Imagine how much money was lost by removing the old Pay2Rebirth system. Or even lowering the rebirth timer to 1week for everyone rather than 1week for premium cards and 3weeks for free users. Again this is just an idea and yeah, if Nexon takes the idea and it doesn't pan out, they could just remove the server and make up for lost costs with Gacha and Recolored Pet sales.

    Imagine how much money was gained by providing something people could play. They couldn't make money off a closed game. Let's look at a couple of things.

    Just because (Insert bad person's name here) isn't as bad as Hitler, doesn't mean that person is any less "evil". The lesser of two evils is still evil, and it is an emotionally charged argument to distract whether or not something or someone is bad. This is something very touchy for many people who like these games; we like Dark Souls for being fair and moderately difficult.

    -Vindictus' +11 Enchantment stone
    -Mabinogi's $6 wig coupon storage.
    -Reforges
    -Most of the manuals that could be tossed into the game were instead tossed into the gachapon.
    -Avenger enchants were only for weapons, which make avenger accessories quite expensive.
    -Haunted, Creepy, and Eerie were gachapon and NA only enchants.
    -Basically, the entire system of Beauty Coupons effectively discourages purchasing new ones.
    -Pets basically provided heals that outdoes most people's healing capabilities.
    -Reforges are essentially the only way to have archery be capable enough to bring to use in lieu of other talents.
    -The (Second) best armours are way too easily available from Gachapon

    This suggestion of yours relies on the notion that Nexon wouldn't sell them on these servers.

    Even then, this also has to consider the past development cycle, AKA the actual game changes. Namely, that Nexon switches out directors every 5 months. To which you need to distinguish between the localization team here, and the people who actually design the game. Hardcore for POE only works because it is essentially adding modifiers to the base version of the game people play normally, with slight variations.

    This wouldn't work with Current Mabinogi, and keeping the two separate would either constrain future design decisions for both versions (Not fun for anyone) or require two separate versions with not only modifiers but entirely different approaches to the design. None of which I believe would sound pleasing to Nexon. This is perhaps my best argument here.

    To add on, this can work with regards to a dungeon you cannot revive in (Phantasm *coughs*), or a new game.

    Yeah Nexon's not that bad. My point is that everything you complain that Nexon monetizes, there's many other games doing it worse. It's like the saying "the frog in the well knows nothing of the ocean". Nexon is not even a remotely bad company compared to a publisher that tries to sell in-game gold, or a publisher that sells a broken weapon for 55 USD (This actually happened in SMT:I)

    POE has been making some big changes to their skill gems that could, in a game that has a lot of factors, upset the balanced of gameplay for players. Mabi still feels like Mabi despite the changes over the years, nothing has been TOO major even the Dynamic combat update.

    Also I'm not suggesting Nexon not sell pets and cosmetics on the server but I do believe sales would be less on that server. Archery is fine for normal use. Most of the time when players talk about Archery being bad, they're talking about high-level end-game stuff and comparing it to the most powerful talents and skills. Archery has enough merit in just being a different playstyle, if you believe it needs buffs that's another issue but reforges are absolutely not necessary. Helpful maybe but not necessary.

    Also Vindictus isn't a thing like Dark Souls outside of it being an action RPG. If anything it's more like Dragon Nest or one of those hack and slash action games like a Dynasty Warriors game with less mobs.

    I also keep saying that having 1 character on a permadeath server does not drain other servers. That's like saying having Taillteann Shadow Missions drains Tara Shadow Missions. It's
    A lot of comments seem to be the same "nexon loves money so they wont do it" and I keep answering that with "if they want to do it they'll do it, that's why this is a suggestion not a demand"

    Do you really not understand what a fallacious argument that is, saying "Nexon is not that bad", versus saying "Nexon wouldn't do that"? I could say of my coworker, who stole food from a puppy, "Hey, he's at least not Ted Bundy!" Except this deflects the arguments to another example entirely, that doesn't dismiss the fact that my coworker is a jerk for stealing food from a puppy.

    Apologies, but I think that example should clarify why it is bad logic.

    I wasn't saying it was going to drain players, but the opposite. People simply wouldn't play it.

    Mabinogi is a game requiring years of investment. With Terraria and Path of Exile, those games are far more heavily reliant on equipment; this is why monetization doesn't work for POE, because it would only anger the playerbase. The investment we lose would not be equipment, but years worth of progress.

    With something like Dark Souls or Terraria, the things we lose are far more manageable than a Mabinogi character, and having great loss may encourage caution, but it would also encourage people quitting. There is no quick way to power in Mabinogi, and such a steep loss would make most veterans leave without significant changes. Dark Souls may be difficult, but the steep loss in souls isn't so much as to keep one from playing.

    In particular, I would recommend much more experience rewards, and much less experience required, alongside wholesale AP reduction costs.

    In terms of skills, we had significant changes to playstyle regarding Bash, as well as several AOEs like Windmill be eschewed for Chains, snapcast fireballs, and such. How hydra and hide is how I handle certain content, or how Nexon neglects talents like Archery to be reforge reliant to Fighter being absolutely abyssmal, or how about puppetry? Alchemy? It is not at all fundementally the same game, because those tricks have been rendered near obsolete the higher leveled a player is.

    I was comparing Vindictus, not merely in physical gameplay, but also because of the difficulty spike overall. Something that has been exploited to sell Goddess Graces as Arcade machines sold continues, alongside just bad design with raid bosses (See Kraken in particular).

    Nexon wouldn't do it, precisely because it wouldn't make them money. "If they wanted to, they could?" They don't, because it is fair to assume it wouldn't make money, for the reasons I listed previously.

    Again I disagree with how much investment is needed to have a decently strong character in Mabi. After 3 weeks my character might not be able to hit 5000 damage smashes but I could probably manage 2000 and with 2000 damage you can do a lot in this game.

    Also I get what you're saying about Nexon but I disagree there too. I feel that where you see Nexon as Bad, I see Nexon as Neutral if not Good. I gave examples of worse offences to build a spectrum. While, yes, there might be better companies, I see Nexon doing alright.

    About losing "years of progress". You don't lose years of progress unless you actually last more than a year. Everyone would be on the same starting line and people who manage to stay alive deserve to keep their progress. When you're tired of dying, you go back to Ruairi or Tarlach or wherever and cool off there.

    About skills being rendered obsolete, that's only if you choose to play like that. Running only what's most effective at all times. That's boring to me. I use windmill because I'm mainly melee and it's Dan 3 with a short cooldown. If you want to use Kunai Storm or Chain Burst or whatever move is similar that's up to you. No one is forcing you. The meta isn't holding a sword to your head.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Cho wrote: »
    I agree with Mabinogi being more focused around your character than your gear but I disagree with you about how much of an effect gear has on your capabilities. Celtic Royal Knight Sword are definitely better than starting with 2 unupgraded short swords. Personally I would pick an upgraded weapon with damage enchants and good balance as a starter weapon to leave in the bank for fast leveling.

    You didn't even acknowledge his argument on how an extremely steep loss discourages people from attempting permadeath. You just disagreed on the gear issue by a minor extent....

    facepalm.jpg

    I think the issue here is you telling others how wise players would attempt surpassing certain obstacles, versus us explaining how players would actually react.

    Oh I'm sorry. Where in
    I think we're disagreeing on one thing: though I'm not familiar with Path of Exile, I've played enough Shiren the Wanderer to know "permadeath" works well when you can put away your best gear for further use. Though this doesn't prevent Mabi players from doing the same, Milletians become strong through stats mostly, and equipment is a bonus; the other "permadeath" games I know are the opposite. i.e. Giving an Apprentice Warrior two Celtic Royal Knight Swords will not enable them to progress much, since the real damage modifiers lie in their base stats, which they get from leveling their skills. On the other hand, in Shiren the Wanderer, levelling is nice, but your gear is what really matters.

    With Mabi's gameplay centered on levelling skills to get stronger, the loss of this progress will put players back far more than in other games, where your goal is to amass gold and end-game gear. At its core, the gameplay mechanics of Mabi are not meant for such a playstyle, and my argument is that Nexon would have to change some things to make it work; thus, why they need to make it profitable/sustainable (without regards to the revenue of the other servers).

    does he mention that? I'm reading so much but I miss one thing that I've already answered and start posting memes. Meanwhile you read nothing I'm writing.

    There are people who like challenge. Steep loss steers away people who don't like that style of gameplay. Just because 5+ people comment on my thread saying "I wouldn't like that" doesn't mean no one would. No one would force you to play on the server just like no one forces you so restore fossils or hot-air balloon, or raft, or participate in Festia and we've addressed literally everything from Monetization to Server Merges.

    How did players react to the homestead expansion update? That's about as relevant as how players would react to this. We don't know how people would react so once it's up and people start whining on the forums about how "I perma-died on the perma-death server!!" then we can make changes and adjust. But you've got me talking like this is already implemented but it's not. It's just a suggestion.
  • ChoCho
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Faybal wrote: »
    There are just too many issues with your whole concept for it to be even remotely coherent. At the end of the day, it's a broken concept trying to be applied to a broken game. Not gonna lie, Mabi is pretty broken. Therefore, I just feel as if this wouldn't work regardless if everything did make sense; the population of the game is already dwindling. Logically, considering how much it costs to run 1 server, let alone 4, it wouldn't be financially beneficial for Nexon to create this permadeath server. While it's an interesting idea, it has too many logical fallacies and it is overall incompatible with Mabi. It can and has worked on other games, but Mabi simply isn't the place for this concept.

    My apologies if I came off as hostile toward you. It was not my intention, I just get a little too passionate when I write sometimes. No hard feelings.
    Also, I liked other's posts because I was agreeing with their reasoning.

    I get what you're saying but that sounds to me like

    Let's not do anything new until Mabi is fixed.

    They're already doing new stuff though. They've expanded flight zones even though it could've ended up a broken mess. They've expanded Belvast Island. They're still adding generation stories. Why not add something else that's literally a copy/paste of what we already have with limits?
    No reason not to try. I'm not rallying millions of people behind me on this. It's just an idea I've had and I'm seeing if they'll take it.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Personally, from a business standpoint. It is an interesting concept, but where Mabi and how Mabi is over the last 15+ years, introducing this concept and new product won't be a feasible course.

    The point is to have a challenging server that forces one to make tough decisions that have an impact on one's survival. You would have to set a lot of rules so players cannot do certain actions that will negatively affect someone else's gameplay on the server that may also have real life social implications (more than the existing amount).

    Also, what content will be available? Will players be running through the same storylines? And speaking of storylines, if one dies and restarts, do they have to do it all over? Player patience is very lacking and I doubt most people don't want to take up such a challenge that frustrates them.

    In the end, only a small group of people are up for this challenge, while there would be more work than gain if such a venture was to go forward.

    With the a sale of Nexon and its assets expected, whoever the buyer(s) may be, will look for what helps keep the flow of profit.
    At this moment, this concept would not be profitable for the game or increase profitability of the game.

    It's a niche market with little dividends

    7bbbf9bb17006b4e1f2b1393461e8ad8.png
    Faybal
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,670
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    edited January 11, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    One of the "selling" points about permadeath gaming is it encourages realistic decision making. For example, in permadeath you couldn't say step through a door see what's in the room, die, revive, equip yourself with the proper equipment THEN step through the door again and live. To be honest permadeath actually sounds good, on paper, but can only work in a game not only where a player invests a moderate amount into their avatar, but also has a clear ending. There is an example to follow here: Minecraft. I used to play in ironman mode strictly. I could handle it and I can honestly say it made me a better player of the game, but try building a world in ironman and then die stupidly. Stupid deaths happen ALL the time, even in the real world. Well, it didn't take me long before I started making copies of my game first before playing on so I could reconstitute it if I died. Because, if you spend two months making a sea lantern factory in ironman and then die stupidly, guess what, your not having fun. At that point why bother with all the trouble and just play in Survival instead. So, now in Minecraft, I still play ironman, but those games are ones where I make the bee-est line to the Enderdragon, and once I kill it, I stop playing that game. Survival is where I make all my farms and so on the hard way and just keep playing. Mabinogi is a just keep playing kind of game.

    So the end result here is although the concept of a permadeath situation has some things of interest, Mabinogi isn't the right game for it.

    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.

    What don't you understand from my explanation?
    Faybal
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Personally, from a business standpoint. It is an interesting concept, but where Mabi and how Mabi is over the last 15+ years, introducing this concept and new product won't be a feasible course.

    The point is to have a challenging server that forces one to make tough decisions that have an impact on one's survival. You would have to set a lot of rules so players cannot do certain actions that will negatively affect someone else's gameplay on the server that may also have real life social implications (more than the existing amount).

    Also, what content will be available? Will players be running through the same storylines? And speaking of storylines, if one dies and restarts, do they have to do it all over? Player patience is very lacking and I doubt most people don't want to take up such a challenge that frustrates them.

    In the end, only a small group of people are up for this challenge, while there would be more work than gain if such a venture was to go forward.

    With the a sale of Nexon and its assets expected, whoever the buyer(s) may be, will look for what helps keep the flow of profit.
    At this moment, this concept would not be profitable for the game or increase profitability of the game.

    It's a niche market with little dividends

    7bbbf9bb17006b4e1f2b1393461e8ad8.png

    Lol Shark Tank. Let's end the business meme.

    -It's new and interesting
    -With appropriate advertising it can draw in players who may have quit or new player interested in the challenge
    -Someone get me an estimate on server costs. I'll pay for the dang thing myself if that's really the issue here.

    On the hardcore server it's just as I said in the OP. You can get killed in Shadow Cast, you can die to Adniels. I assumed it was obvious that dying in PvP wouldn't count but let's add that to be sure. Everyone plays like in the normal server. The idea is that it's harder to finish some storylines without dying so the Transformation or skills you acquire can make you a more valuable player when it comes to guilds and parties. I think there's ton's of player patience considering people can mindlessly run Conflict or Martial Arts tourney for hours with no breaks.
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    One of the "selling" points about permadeath gaming is it encourages realistic decision making. For example, in permadeath you couldn't say step through a door see what's in the room, die, revive, equip yourself with the proper equipment THEN step through the door again and live. To be honest permadeath actually sounds good, on paper, but can only work in a game not only where a player invests a moderate amount into their avatar, but also has a clear ending. There is an example to follow here: Minecraft. I used to play in ironman mode strictly. I could handle it and I can honestly say it made me a better player of the game, but try building a world in ironman and then die stupidly. Stupid deaths happen ALL the time, even in the real world. Well, it didn't take me long before I started making copies of my game first before playing on so I could reconstitute it if I died. Because, if you spend two months making a sea lantern factory in ironman and then die stupidly, guess what, your not having fun. At that point why bother with all the trouble and just play in Survival instead. So, now in Minecraft, I still play ironman, but those games are ones where I make the bee-est line to the Enderdragon, and once I kill it, I stop playing that game. Survival is where I make all my farms and so on the hard way and just keep playing. Mabinogi is a just keep playing kind of game.

    So the end result here is although the concept of a permadeath situation has some things of interest, Mabinogi isn't the right game for it.

    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.

    What don't you understand from my explanation?


    I get what you said but I'm asking why does this not work for Mabi? You can still make the tough decisions to survive and sure there's no end of the game but the reward is to be able to make it far and remain alive. Things like bragging rights, gear from strong monsters, high damage numbers. They would all be things you worked past the danger for.

    How does it not work? Someone could die in Hardcore Mabi, their name could scroll across the top of the screen "Noobslayer64 has died." They start over and start working on their character again. You still have your pets, they're just level 1. You still have your bank. You still have your homestead. You still have your wardrobe. You don't lose everything and you try not to die the next time. You slowly build up wealth to cushion your next death. I don't see how this doesn't work. Maybe it's not fun for everyone but nothing is really fun for everyone.
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    Sounds unfun.
    LeineiFaybal
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,465
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    Cho wrote: »
    Personally, from a business standpoint. It is an interesting concept, but where Mabi and how Mabi is over the last 15+ years, introducing this concept and new product won't be a feasible course.

    The point is to have a challenging server that forces one to make tough decisions that have an impact on one's survival. You would have to set a lot of rules so players cannot do certain actions that will negatively affect someone else's gameplay on the server that may also have real life social implications (more than the existing amount).

    Also, what content will be available? Will players be running through the same storylines? And speaking of storylines, if one dies and restarts, do they have to do it all over? Player patience is very lacking and I doubt most people don't want to take up such a challenge that frustrates them.

    In the end, only a small group of people are up for this challenge, while there would be more work than gain if such a venture was to go forward.

    With the a sale of Nexon and its assets expected, whoever the buyer(s) may be, will look for what helps keep the flow of profit.
    At this moment, this concept would not be profitable for the game or increase profitability of the game.

    It's a niche market with little dividends

    7bbbf9bb17006b4e1f2b1393461e8ad8.png

    Lol Shark Tank. Let's end the business meme.

    -It's new and interesting
    -With appropriate advertising it can draw in players who may have quit or new player interested in the challenge
    -Someone get me an estimate on server costs. I'll pay for the dang thing myself if that's really the issue here.

    On the hardcore server it's just as I said in the OP. You can get killed in Shadow Cast, you can die to Adniels. I assumed it was obvious that dying in PvP wouldn't count but let's add that to be sure. Everyone plays like in the normal server. The idea is that it's harder to finish some storylines without dying so the Transformation or skills you acquire can make you a more valuable player when it comes to guilds and parties. I think there's ton's of player patience considering people can mindlessly run Conflict or Martial Arts tourney for hours with no breaks.

    I think if this idea keeps getting refined as we go along and if others are willing to contribute, and compromises made it could be a decent idea. In the current raw state, it has been rejected by a fair number.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,670
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    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    One of the "selling" points about permadeath gaming is it encourages realistic decision making. For example, in permadeath you couldn't say step through a door see what's in the room, die, revive, equip yourself with the proper equipment THEN step through the door again and live. To be honest permadeath actually sounds good, on paper, but can only work in a game not only where a player invests a moderate amount into their avatar, but also has a clear ending. There is an example to follow here: Minecraft. I used to play in ironman mode strictly. I could handle it and I can honestly say it made me a better player of the game, but try building a world in ironman and then die stupidly. Stupid deaths happen ALL the time, even in the real world. Well, it didn't take me long before I started making copies of my game first before playing on so I could reconstitute it if I died. Because, if you spend two months making a sea lantern factory in ironman and then die stupidly, guess what, your not having fun. At that point why bother with all the trouble and just play in Survival instead. So, now in Minecraft, I still play ironman, but those games are ones where I make the bee-est line to the Enderdragon, and once I kill it, I stop playing that game. Survival is where I make all my farms and so on the hard way and just keep playing. Mabinogi is a just keep playing kind of game.

    So the end result here is although the concept of a permadeath situation has some things of interest, Mabinogi isn't the right game for it.

    "But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"

    "Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"

    "Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"

    The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.

    What don't you understand from my explanation?

    I get what you said but I'm asking why does this not work for Mabi? You can still make the tough decisions to survive and sure there's no end of the game but the reward is to be able to make it far and remain alive. Things like bragging rights, gear from strong monsters, high damage numbers. They would all be things you worked past the danger for.

    How does it not work? Someone could die in Hardcore Mabi, their name could scroll across the top of the screen "Noobslayer64 has died." They start over and start working on their character again. You still have your pets, they're just level 1. You still have your bank. You still have your homestead. You still have your wardrobe. You don't lose everything and you try not to die the next time. You slowly build up wealth to cushion your next death. I don't see how this doesn't work. Maybe it's not fun for everyone but nothing is really fun for everyone.


    Mabinogi is a game where folks invest a great deal of time into building up their character. In the case of my example using Minecraft, it's not the character you build up it's your world. I used to play it with permadeath and trying to build up a world, sometimes I died stupidly. In retrospect I saw that it was entirely my own fault sure, but the experience sucked for me enough that I stopped playing it that way. Thank goodness I wasn't forced to have to continue that way, because of Survival mode, otherwise I would have walked away from the game. Games where you invest little can work this way but there is a point beyond which they don't. Back to my Minecraft example, I still play ironman, but now those games are not ambitious they are just kill the Enderdragon and call it quits, that's it. To kill the Enderdragon, I don't need to make a witchfarm that gives me piles of redstone dust per hour. But I do like to build such things. I've learned to my sorrow to do so in non-permadeath (ie survival mode). Mabinogi is a game where you must invest a lot of time (and should you chose, money, say in the form of reset caps or special passes to get items to satisfy a skill ranking quest) into improving your character, that money would be gone, and no one is going to consider that simply a fun challenge. Death in Mabinogi is inevitable no matter how clever or careful you are. Consider the boss in G21 part 3, post any video of someone beating him without dying. Permadeath server means no G22.
    Faybal