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Triona Server - An alternate permadeath suggestion

DraechDraech
Mabinogi Rep: 4,390
Posts: 355
Member
edited January 14, 2019 in Feedback and Suggestions
EDIT: If anyone wants to use one specific aspect of my suggestion and either modify it, discuss it further, or ask to have it implemented in our current Mabi, feel free to make a new suggestion thread, and no need to link it to here or give credit.

With the very extensive discussion from Cho's suggestion, two main aspects were used in opposition to the suggestion: Gameplay and Lore (with Monetization as a reality check). Here's an alternate proposal trying to compromise.

Gameplay

To understand this aspect, we must first understand permadeath as a gameplay element. Permadeath involves either permanent death for a character in game (either through the creation of a new character to replace the former, or simply the deletion of the save game), or some punishing consequences for death.

Now, in regards to Mabinogi, a debate was held on the original suggestion regarding Characters as Parameters and Characters as Equipment. Many agreed that the impact of a character's core abilities (Str, Dex, Int, Will, Luck, HP, MP, Sta) is what makes the most difference in character potential. Equipment serves as a bonus that increases your parameters past your natural limits, and "tweaking" them the way you want with Min/Max damage, Balance, and more.

Using Characters as Parameters, I suggest the following changes:

Milletian
The player cannot rebirth every few days. All of the core elements of rebirth will remain available, with some changes:
- They will be unable to change their age. Instead, a Height slider will be added much like Partners', as will sliders for weight (as it should have been from the start).
- Talents may be switched by speaking to Tin in Tir Chonaill. He will be waiting by the stone near Alby Dungeon's Moon Gate, and will only accept switching your talent once every few days. Switching a talent will adjust your stats as if you'd been leveling with that Talent the whole time.
- Appearance can now only be changed through the Dressing Room, though it really impacts nothing.

Instead, upon dying, the character will be forced to leave their body behind and rebirth. Here's what that entails:
- Rebirthing will reset all of your skills to Rank F. You don't lose any, and the only things lost are AP and the progress you had to next rank. (It works like Duncan's All Skill Reset.)
- Upon death, all of your equipped gear is forfeit, alongside any items you had that weren't stored in the Soul Stream Inventory or the Bank, with the exception of any bags. (The content of bags would be lost, though)

The point in this is that AP becomes the real commodity: a max rank player, upon death, will have to spend a ton of AP to get their skills back to the top. This will most likely lead players to spending their AP towards their main and secondary skillset, and enhance the rest once they've maxed that. As for the loss of gear, more will be explained further on.

Milletians will also lose a portion of their accumulated renown, equivalent to three levels for each NPC for every death they suffer, and Likeability will no longer decrease over time, but will decrease heavily upon death. People forget you when you rebirth.

When a character is knocked unconscious, they are not yet dead! A 30-second countdown will start, and anyone can attempt to revive them during that time by using Phoenix Feathers of any type without any penalties. However, a fallen Milletian cannot "Revive Here," "Revive at Town," or "Revive at Last Statue of the Goddess." They can only wait for rescue, or Rebirth, where they will respawn at Tir Chonaill as if selecting that option in the current Rebirth menu.

IMPORTANT!
To counteract the limitations of no longer rebirthing, characters who reach level 200 will be able to keep getting exp, until they've gained 6,825,000 (the same as levelling from 199 to 200). Once achieved, they will be set back by that amount, and receive AP as they would for a Level Up. So a strong player can gain AP as long as they don't die, making AP grinding a countermeasure for death at high level.

Content
Some content will have to be tweaked to allow a permadeath gameplay. Any quest requiring you to die, or anything with instakill properties will be removed or nerfed (instakill moves will instead send you to Deadly).

The Memory Book update will either have to be removed (a shame) or have its rewards nerfed (my preferred option). As for any Cumulative Level requirements for content, they would simply be removed. (You think you can do Peaca? Go right ahead, Fledgling Warrior! -Life lessons-) Moreover, (and this will be controversial) Generations will have to be done in order. G3 before G19. G16 before Shamala's Nightmare and Saga: Iria. Lore reasons explained further down.

And finally, the Potential system would be replaced with a Generation-tracker. Instead of levelling, completing Generations will grant you some of the Potential system's rewards, including the Soul Stream Inventory and bonus skill points (that remain after rebirth!)

Balance
Some content would have to be balanced to make the experience more enjoyable, or more "permadeath-y." Here's some of them:
- No pets. They're way too easy to spam, and they're a last minute bank that would render permadeath pointless. Divine link will remain useful, and "Pets" will not be entirely lost.
- Moongates return to their previous version that cycled. Permadeath is realism; and anyway, it's not the destination that counts, but the journey that comes before.
- No more continent warp. Instead, Port Cobh will be getting some more action. (Again, realism, journey, blah blah.)
- Crisis Escape will be given to every character upon creation. You'll need it, buddy.
- Gear can be repaired using Life skills and materials. For example, Tailoring for clothes; Blacksmithing for Metal (weapons and armor); Handicraft for accessories, bows and crossbows; Hillwen Engineering for Dual Guns; Enchant for Magic Weapons. Some of you might be thinking, "But wait! We use Carpentry to make bows, and Magic Craft to make Magic Weapons! Why not use those skills for repairs? For bows, you don't need to rework the wood when you repair it; often, you just need to restring it. As for Magic Weapons, I wanted to give some use to Enchant, and reinjecting your item with mana sounded like a good idea.
- Camping penalties will be removed.
- New Renown from NPCs will be added. They will give you bonuses to buy/sell prices from NPCs, increased exp from killing monsters, etc.
- Leveling up will not refill your HP, MP, Stamina, and Hunger level. Make those Chefs useful, and food won't affect weight since sliders will be used instead.
- I'm hesitant between Bachram Boost not refilling your stats, or simply disabling it. Not refilling stats would still give you the bonus Dorcha and remove all cooldowns on skills.
- Events will have to be tweaked accordingly, especially in the Rewards department.

Equipment
Now, as mentionned, equipment will be heavily affected by such an approach to gameplay. People will hesitate to make a Celtic Weapon, let alone Special Upgrade and Reforge it. As such, here are some balance changes I'm thinking of adding (VERY debatable):
- Reforging with a regular Reforge tool will get your item to Rank 1 guaranteed. However, it will never add a line. This way, Credne's remain the best, and Fine Reforge Tools will still let you reroll. Though you might think Nexon is losing money on this, you'll be losing gear on death, so they'll actually be able to milk you for more than right now.
- Guaranteed material drops will be added to chests and Raid bosses, to help with the production of quality gear. No more running the same thing 10 times for one drop.
- ALL Manuals and Patterns will be added to NPC shops or end chests/monster drops. Everything.
- NPCs will pay you more for any crafted gear you might have. However, the current durability of the item will also affect the price by a lot.

Pet Replacer
Since Pets won't be a part of the permadeath system, here's an alternate use for Divine Link, and an actual use for Taming.
- Taming will turn a monster into a temporary pet, for a maximum of five at a time (not summoned, just registered). That pet can be summoned without a summon skill for an indefinite amount of time, but upon death, will be lost forever. There will be no unique name given to it, though at R9 Taming, you'll be able to give it a name that will appear over its head (not an ID, just an equivalent of a title, so Gray Fox you've had for the past three weeks can finally become Lord Explosion Murder II).
- At higher ranks of Taming, you can create guidelines for your pet to act a certain way. The more advanced your rank, the more advanced the commands.
- Divine Link will be turned into a passive skill. When in a party, it will give a passive bonus to defense and magic defense for all. When in a party with one or more others who also have Divine Link, the effects will be increased by 10% per member that owns the skill. This rewards Milletians that cleared G20 for their prowess, and gives another incentive for party play.

Monetization

Obviously, gachapons won't be available for characters on the Triona server. They contain way too many things that would make it an obvious pay-to-win. Instead, here's what I suggest:
- Pon to AP. A conversion rate of 1 for 5, so you can pay to minimize or negate the most punishing effect of Rebirth.
- Height Potions. Players would all have the same age, but height potions would allow you to go to further extremes than the slider, for effects similar to a Tin Potion.
- Pet Protection Medals. By buying one, your pet will be protected from death, and when they die, you will be able to revive them with a Phoenix Feather (not any type, just THE Phoenix Feather). You can still dismiss them through the Pet menu.
- VIP/Premium. With tweaked bonuses, they can still prove very lucrative.
- Style Tab. It's not because you're on a permadeath server that you can't still fight in a Sailor Bikini while keeping your defense and protection.
- Talent Skills Protection Potion. A potion that prevents your active talent's skills from resetting upon death. Careful that you have your main talent equipped when you go to dangerous places!

Lore

What I believe to be the most important part of the suggestion, Lore must be respected with the idea of the Triona server, if not more so than on regular servers.
- Rebirth is your character getting a new body. Logically, I assume this should only happen if you die, and I hope this doesn't mean Draech has been committing suicide every six days for a bit of AP.
- Despite rebirthing, characters retain knowledge they already had. As such, skills being reset rather than removed reinforces the "having to regain your lost power" idea.
- Characters forget you because you change all the time. The previous adjustments now work with this piece of the lore.
- The storyline will be in order, so you don't reminisce all of the events you've endured (G19) before actually doing them.

And finally, I call the server Triona because death has great consequences, as seen from the fact Triona's death lead Ruairi over the edge and caused so much evil. Also in memory of a character that died too soon.

Feel free to discuss and criticize in a civilized manner what I've suggested here, and feel free to support Cho's idea if it aligns with your preferences more than mine does.
THICCthighssavelivesFaybal

Comments

  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,670
    Posts: 886
    Member
    edited January 13, 2019
    No.
    I'm not playing g13 in 2019.
    Games are suppose to be about progression and evolve, not de-evolve and removing aspects of the game. No one would ever restart on a whole new sever just to have nearly all content removed.
    FaybalAlexLight
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
    Posts: 5,763
    Member
    edited January 13, 2019
    Permadeath, however you dress it up, can be an interesting concept in a game, but it has to be a game that is appropriate for it. Mabinogi is not appropriate for it. Suggestions that fundamentally alter and morph Mabingoi into something else that make Permadeath more palatable sort of proves the point because at that point "Mabinogi" isn't Mabinogi anymore.
    FaybalAlexLight
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    edited January 13, 2019
    yNiBv8S.gif

    Triona is dead, so is this suggestion.
    SebastianSollWolfsingerAlexLight
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,390
    Posts: 355
    Member
    edited January 13, 2019
    In all honesty, I wouldn't even play on it if my suggestion came to pass. Not a fan of losing what I've worked for 'cause of unlucky circumstances. On the other hand, though, I still think it's a more plausible approach.

    Also, I made it to calm the Ruairi of the forums who's out for blood.
    PlatinaKokiFaybalWolfsinger
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,120
    Posts: 244
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    I think this would be fun for a while but once you hit 200 you gain AP very slowly. It can be balanced with AP from generation quests, journal achievements, and daily quests but your idea puts a soft cap on how much you can grow.

    Having 30 seconds to revive someone makes party play and solo play very uneven. You're technically punished for not having friends, a party, guildmates, knowing someone who can buy ADV feathers, etc.

    You've tweaked gameplay and mechanics way more than my idea. If this is just your own original idea added to this then fine but if you feel this is needed to make permadeath, it's not in my opinion. It makes the idea of the Triona Server into a permadeath server + random quality of life the base game should have. Things like guaranteed drops from bosses, players being able to repair, and reworking the reforge tool could just be added to the normal servers.

    Even taming enemies as temp pets is a really cool idea but is it necessary? Again I don't know if you're adding this idea because you think it's better than my pet idea from my own post but where I said a 3 pet limit, you're saying a 5 pet limit + adding more work to get the pets. Also, in the end, you're still asking people to be able to solo G20 without dying unless that's one of the things you said you'll tweak. Some changes you suggest like not healing or regaining hunger after leveling or reverting moongates seem like they just increase the overall difficulty when not dying is already difficult.
    The storyline will be in order, so you don't reminisce all of the events you've endured (G19) before actually doing them.

    You say this is done for lore reasons yet the current servers don't even do this.
    What I believe to be the most important part of the suggestion, Lore must be respected with the idea of the Triona server, if not more so than on regular servers.

    Why this has to be respected is never explained.

    Regarding your idea about monetization, I think this is very pay to win. The Cash Shop doesn't sell 500% experience fruits and AP potions regularly iirc but your idea is on that level. Paying to not lose a whole talent tree can really decrease the danger of having to start over. This is especially if people are going to focus on their main and secondary talents like you say. According to you, they'll most likely be on their main talent when they die causing them to not lose much of anything.

    If we care about monetization here, removing gachas decreases that a lot when gacha's mainly have gear, training pots, shadow crystals, and exploration artifacts.
    a debate was held on the original suggestion regarding Characters as Parameters and Characters as Equipment. Many agreed that the impact of a character's core abilities (Str, Dex, Int, Will, Luck, HP, MP, Sta) is what makes the most difference in character potential.

    I don't think anyone disagreed with that but I disagreed with the amount of benefit gear gives a character. If you think character stats>gear, why cut out gachas that include mainly gear? With training pots, you still need the AP that you have to work for. With crystals you still need to complete the mission. Exploration artifacts have big diminishing returns after 3 or 4. Having pets would be easy to spam you say, meanwhile, you're for the idea of selling AP and selling the ability to keep your skills and your pet. The only reason buying AP is even worthwhile is because you softcapped the AP gain by removing rebirths.

    People suggested to me there would need to be a lot of changes to make a permadeath server work which I disagreed with but your post seems like there are QoL and random adjustments that are just added for no reason. The more you add, the more complex the idea, I believe it would be way harder to implement. I think it'd be fine to suggest your changes like the store-bought reforge change or the player repairing idea to the regular servers first.

    But then again
    Draech wrote: »
    In all honesty, I wouldn't even play on it if my suggestion came to pass.

  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,855
    Posts: 790
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    edited January 13, 2019
    And finally, the Potential system would be replaced with a Generation-tracker. Instead of levelling, completing Generations will grant you ... the Potential system's rewards, including the Soul Stream Inventory and bonus skill points

    VMz66A0.jpg

    This is a great idea that deserves its own thread. I would love to have this in current mabi.
  • FaybalFaybal
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,775
    Posts: 97
    Member
    Honestly this sounds really well thought out and planned.
    I wish mabi were a permadeath-able game, as challenges are quite fun sometimes.
    I would like to think that is would happen, but I'd suggest going to KR with this, it sounds like they could take some of these suggestions and throw it into the main servers. Some of the ideas like the potential and Lore are brilliantly thought out.

    I do have a question though: No pets = slow movement?
    I personally HATE having to run all over the place, it takes me forever.
    Also, squires? Would they reset too? Would you have to befriend them again?

    And I personally think bosses that can 1hko changing to deadly is still a little much, maybe do a set % of HP, like 50% HP instead of instant death? Some bosses (such as the Hasdim in G21 storyline) can do the attack and then a quick follow-up, making it a (deadly)->(finish you off) combo.

    I like it! These ideas seem fresh and well thought out.
    Draech wrote: »
    In all honesty, I wouldn't even play on it if my suggestion came to pass. Not a fan of losing what I've worked for 'cause of unlucky circumstances. On the other hand, though, I still think it's a more plausible approach.
    I probably wouldn't either, since Mabi's a game that takes years to invest in to actually get a developed character, but It's a practical start.

  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,855
    Posts: 790
    Member
    edited January 13, 2019
    Regarding the actual suggestion, I love it. It really overhauls mabi so it can properly and realistically support permadeath. A few things I disagree with are the 30-second death timer when knocked out (I feel it should be 30 minutes), the reverting moon gates to cycles (permadeath is realistic enough, no need to make it more difficult), and the removal of food's effect on our body size (I like this as a realistic detail in mabi because it's mostly for fun and can easily be reversed).

    AP gains will be very difficult nearing and past level 200, consider easing this or providing an alternate means of AP gain. Pons to AP is a good start, but a free method would be better.

    Reforge Tools guaranteeing r1 on use seems a bit out of place. Not because it's overpowered, but because it feels like a clunky solution, like it's a bandaid that is covering up a deeper issue or imbalance. Maybe r1 reforge effects, in general, are too overpowered and at the same time too difficult to get. If it were up to me, I would just remove r1 and r2 effects altogether and the grind to get them. We would just be left with modest r3 reforge effects, possibly improved slighty but that's it.

    Things I like include the removal of memory book (bye Bland), the tamed pseudo-pets, npcs not forgetting you unless you die.
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,390
    Posts: 355
    Member
    edited January 14, 2019
    And finally, the Potential system would be replaced with a Generation-tracker. Instead of levelling, completing Generations will grant you ... the Potential system's rewards, including the Soul Stream Inventory and bonus skill points

    This is a great idea that deserves its own thread. I would love to have this in current mabi.

    Unfortunately, we can already see that some people would be outraged. "I don't like Saga II, so a no from me" and "Shakespeare was a mistake; downvote" would be the two responses I'd get the most.

    Regarding the actual suggestion, I love it. It really overhauls mabi so it can properly and realistically support permadeath. A few things I disagree with are the 30-second death timer when knocked out (I feel it should be 30 minutes), the reverting moon gates to cycles (permadeath is realistic enough, no need to make it more difficult), and the removal of food's effect on our body size (I like this as a realistic detail in mabi because it's mostly for fun and can easily be reversed).

    I'm sure 30 seconds is more than enough. You're in a room with a party, and one of your teammates dies; you can easily revive him with a regular feather or a party feather. The only thing is advanced feathers for long range resurrections would be harder, but at the same time, it avoids people cheesing their way out of death by having an alt account that just holds onto adv feathers all the time. I had a more realistic "You're bleeding out" kinda view, but I get your point.

    As for Moongates, I went with the original devs' mindset that you can walk to your destination rather easily, and it also gives the impression that the map is that much larger than what it actually is.

    And for body effects, I don't like the "tick" system we have in place, and I know a few want the slider option (that's been around in a few suggestions before).

    AP gains will be very difficult nearing and past level 200, consider easing this or providing an alternate means of AP gain. Pons to AP is a good start, but a free method would be better.

    Maybe permanent triple AP?

    Reforge Tools guaranteeing r1 on use seems a bit out of place. Not because it's overpowered, but because it feels like a clunky solution, like it's a bandaid that is covering up a deeper issue or imbalance. Maybe r1 reforge effects, in general, are too overpowered and at the same time too difficult to get. If it were up to me, I would just remove r1 and r2 effects altogether and the grind to get them. We would just be left with modest r3 reforge effects, possibly improved slighty but that's it.

    Unfortunately, we know Nexon. Rank 1 offers a larger pool of RNG for the reforge, so people would have to roll more often to get the best. Also, it makes reforges as OP as in current Mabi, so people are heavily encouraged to use the Reforge system.

    Still, glad to see some of the changes have caught your eye. Also, what's up with you and Blaanid?
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,390
    Posts: 355
    Member
    Faybal wrote: »
    Honestly this sounds really well thought out and planned.
    I wish mabi were a permadeath-able game, as challenges are quite fun sometimes.
    I would like to think that is would happen, but I'd suggest going to KR with this, it sounds like they could take some of these suggestions and throw it into the main servers. Some of the ideas like the potential and Lore are brilliantly thought out.

    Thanks, but I can't take much credit. It's mostly a compilation of "fixes" for issues mentionned in the original suggestion, plus balance changes I feel would help. As for KR, though it's true that they're the ones making the dev calls, NA still checks the suggestions and forwards those that garner a lot of support, like the Dark Skintone For Elves thread and, in the last update, the extra hotkeys thing.

    Faybal wrote: »
    I do have a question though: No pets = slow movement?
    I personally HATE having to run all over the place, it takes me forever.
    Also, squires? Would they reset too? Would you have to befriend them again?

    I get that people hate slow movement (I do too), but walking around forces people to take the time and appreciate the environment, the music, etc. Also, I thought it would add some "seriousness" to hunger being a thing again.

    As for squires, I wouldn't make them reset. We died; they didn't. On the other hand, though, I'd want to see their likeability fall a bit like with NPC likeability. (Plus, it's something that can easily be regained.)

    Faybal wrote: »
    And I personally think bosses that can 1hko changing to deadly is still a little much, maybe do a set % of HP, like 50% HP instead of instant death? Some bosses (such as the Hasdim in G21 storyline) can do the attack and then a quick follow-up, making it a (deadly)->(finish you off) combo.

    Maybe it should be "case-by-case" changes. Hasidim is one of the trickier ones to balance.
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,390
    Posts: 355
    Member
    edited January 14, 2019
    I put my response to Cho in a spoiler tag, 'cause it's long as hell and I didn't want to make everyone have to skip over it every time.
    Cho wrote: »
    I think this would be fun for a while but once you hit 200 you gain AP very slowly. It can be balanced with AP from generation quests, journal achievements, and daily quests but your idea puts a soft cap on how much you can grow.

    Yeah, maybe a constant triple AP could help with AP gain. Still, I think someone Level 200 would most likely have enough experience to not die for a while, thus making them gain AP at a regular rate without giving too much.

    Cho wrote: »
    Having 30 seconds to revive someone makes party play and solo play very uneven. You're technically punished for not having friends, a party, guildmates, knowing someone who can buy ADV feathers, etc.

    That's the point. In a "death game," being alone is the worst call you can make; you should always have someone else with you, especially if they cover what you don't. Soloing would still be a thing, but you wouldn't solo unless you know what you're doing. And in this kind of server, I believe there would always be someone willing to help you out. (If you're familiar with Dungeons and Dragons or Monster Hunter, you'd know that having someone with you changes everything.)

    Cho wrote: »
    You've tweaked gameplay and mechanics way more than my idea. If this is just your own original idea added to this then fine but if you feel this is needed to make permadeath, it's not in my opinion. It makes the idea of the Triona Server into a permadeath server + random quality of life the base game should have. Things like guaranteed drops from bosses, players being able to repair, and reworking the reforge tool could just be added to the normal servers.

    If there's one thing I've learned from Mabinogi, it's that adding content without adjusting the rest consequently is a dumb move. The Fighter's Respite is one example, and Taming after the Dungeon Revamp is another.

    Cho wrote: »
    Even taming enemies as temp pets is a really cool idea but is it necessary? Again I don't know if you're adding this idea because you think it's better than my pet idea from my own post but where I said a 3 pet limit, you're saying a 5 pet limit + adding more work to get the pets. Also, in the end, you're still asking people to be able to solo G20 without dying unless that's one of the things you said you'll tweak. Some changes you suggest like not healing or regaining hunger after leveling or reverting moongates seem like they just increase the overall difficulty when not dying is already difficult.

    The Pet idea is to remove gameplay centered around pet spamming, and to make them more like animal companions than weapons. As for soloing G20, I don't get your point. The Gen is mostly solo, even in the final battle. And ultimately, my suggestion is not about adding the stress factor of not dying, but creating a new gameplay experience, a new approach to Mabi. Creating a second game without rebuilding from the ground up, like vanilla Skyrim vs modded Skyrim.

    Cho wrote: »
    The storyline will be in order, so you don't reminisce all of the events you've endured (G19) before actually doing them.

    You say this is done for lore reasons yet the current servers don't even do this.

    Yeah, and it's a shame. I joined right after the G19 update, and let me say it's confusing as hell to not know there's an order to the Gens.

    Cho wrote: »
    What I believe to be the most important part of the suggestion, Lore must be respected with the idea of the Triona server, if not more so than on regular servers.

    Why this has to be respected is never explained.

    The suggestion is about making the game more realistic. If you throw Lore out the window, then it's no longer a Fantasy Life MMO, just some high-budget arcade game where you play for the sake of playing rather than for immersion.
    Cho wrote: »
    Regarding your idea about monetization, I think this is very pay to win. The Cash Shop doesn't sell 500% experience fruits and AP potions regularly iirc but your idea is on that level. Paying to not lose a whole talent tree can really decrease the danger of having to start over. This is especially if people are going to focus on their main and secondary talents like you say. According to you, they'll most likely be on their main talent when they die causing them to not lose much of anything.

    I don't think it's pay-to-win. You protect the rank of a single talent, but you lose the stat bonuses from every other skill you had. You'll still need to regrind AP, you just save a bit by not releveling your active talent. Though, I guess Mages would get the biggest advantage, but not enough to call it pay-to-win.

    Cho wrote: »
    If we care about monetization here, removing gachas decreases that a lot when gacha's mainly have gear, training pots, shadow crystals, and exploration artifacts.
    a debate was held on the original suggestion regarding Characters as Parameters and Characters as Equipment. Many agreed that the impact of a character's core abilities (Str, Dex, Int, Will, Luck, HP, MP, Sta) is what makes the most difference in character potential.

    I don't think anyone disagreed with that but I disagreed with the amount of benefit gear gives a character. If you think character stats>gear, why cut out gachas that include mainly gear? With training pots, you still need the AP that you have to work for. With crystals you still need to complete the mission. Exploration artifacts have big diminishing returns after 3 or 4. Having pets would be easy to spam you say, meanwhile, you're for the idea of selling AP and selling the ability to keep your skills and your pet. The only reason buying AP is even worthwhile is because you softcapped the AP gain by removing rebirths.

    Training potions are unbalanced; they allow you to skip an entire rank of training by spending a bit of cash. Sure, they require AP, but someone could easily let all their skills at Rank F, level a bit, then die and level some more. Imagine the whale logging in on the first day and mastering every talent within the week because they've got the dough and they did just that.

    Gacha gear has been unbalanced for as long as I've been a part of this community, and from what I could read, from even before that. OP enchants, OP armors, and I'm still waiting for them to add Rank 1 Soluna Blades at 0.000001% chance (you know they'd do it). Even if it's not as important as stats, you're meant to cherish your stronger gear due to the bonuses they give that allow you to surpass your natural limits. Just buying it outright isn't the way to go about it, and why play at all if you can buy the most end-game gear anyway?

    As for pets, I don't get what's your issue. Without any summon skills and inventory, they become animal companions. And yeah, you could pay to protect the Ixiom you trained and have kept with you for the past month, because it'd be a real shame to lose it; yet you can still retrain another just as easily. How is this pay-to-win?

    Cho wrote: »
    People suggested to me there would need to be a lot of changes to make a permadeath server work which I disagreed with but your post seems like there are QoL and random adjustments that are just added for no reason. The more you add, the more complex the idea, I believe it would be way harder to implement. I think it'd be fine to suggest your changes like the store-bought reforge change or the player repairing idea to the regular servers first.

    Though it is Quality of Life improvements, I'm not making these suggestions for the base game. I'm making them because I think they're needed to make permadeath palatable, and saying "Put these on every server" would trigger a series of angry responses that have nothing to do with the core suggestion.
    Wolfsinger
  • FaybalFaybal
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,775
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    Draech wrote: »
    I put my response to Cho in a spoiler tag, 'cause it's long as hell and I didn't want to make everyone have to skip over it every time.
    Cho wrote: »
    I think this would be fun for a while but once you hit 200 you gain AP very slowly. It can be balanced with AP from generation quests, journal achievements, and daily quests but your idea puts a soft cap on how much you can grow.

    Yeah, maybe a constant triple AP could help with AP gain. Still, I think someone Level 200 would most likely have enough experience to not die for a while, thus making them gain AP at a regular rate without giving too much.

    Cho wrote: »
    Having 30 seconds to revive someone makes party play and solo play very uneven. You're technically punished for not having friends, a party, guildmates, knowing someone who can buy ADV feathers, etc.

    That's the point. In a "death game," being alone is the worst call you can make; you should always have someone else with you, especially if they cover what you don't. Soloing would still be a thing, but you wouldn't solo unless you know what you're doing. And in this kind of server, I believe there would always be someone willing to help you out. (If you're familiar with Dungeons and Dragons or Monster Hunter, you'd know that having someone with you changes everything.)

    Cho wrote: »
    You've tweaked gameplay and mechanics way more than my idea. If this is just your own original idea added to this then fine but if you feel this is needed to make permadeath, it's not in my opinion. It makes the idea of the Triona Server into a permadeath server + random quality of life the base game should have. Things like guaranteed drops from bosses, players being able to repair, and reworking the reforge tool could just be added to the normal servers.

    If there's one thing I've learned from Mabinogi, it's that adding content without adjusting the rest consequently is a dumb move. The Fighter's Respite is one example, and Taming after the Dungeon Revamp is another.

    Cho wrote: »
    Even taming enemies as temp pets is a really cool idea but is it necessary? Again I don't know if you're adding this idea because you think it's better than my pet idea from my own post but where I said a 3 pet limit, you're saying a 5 pet limit + adding more work to get the pets. Also, in the end, you're still asking people to be able to solo G20 without dying unless that's one of the things you said you'll tweak. Some changes you suggest like not healing or regaining hunger after leveling or reverting moongates seem like they just increase the overall difficulty when not dying is already difficult.

    The Pet idea is to remove gameplay centered around pet spamming, and to make them more like animal companions than weapons. As for soloing G20, I don't get your point. The Gen is mostly solo, even in the final battle. And ultimately, my suggestion is not about adding the stress factor of not dying, but creating a new gameplay experience, a new approach to Mabi. Creating a second game without rebuilding from the ground up, like vanilla Skyrim vs modded Skyrim.

    Cho wrote: »
    The storyline will be in order, so you don't reminisce all of the events you've endured (G19) before actually doing them.

    You say this is done for lore reasons yet the current servers don't even do this.

    Yeah, and it's a shame. I joined right after the G19 update, and let me say it's confusing as hell to not know there's an order to the Gens.

    Cho wrote: »
    What I believe to be the most important part of the suggestion, Lore must be respected with the idea of the Triona server, if not more so than on regular servers.

    Why this has to be respected is never explained.

    The suggestion is about making the game more realistic. If you throw Lore out the window, then it's no longer a Fantasy Life MMO, just some high-budget arcade game where you play for the sake of playing rather than for immersion.
    Cho wrote: »
    Regarding your idea about monetization, I think this is very pay to win. The Cash Shop doesn't sell 500% experience fruits and AP potions regularly iirc but your idea is on that level. Paying to not lose a whole talent tree can really decrease the danger of having to start over. This is especially if people are going to focus on their main and secondary talents like you say. According to you, they'll most likely be on their main talent when they die causing them to not lose much of anything.

    I don't think it's pay-to-win. You protect the rank of a single talent, but you lose the stat bonuses from every other skill you had. You'll still need to regrind AP, you just save a bit by not releveling your active talent. Though, I guess Mages would get the biggest advantage, but not enough to call it pay-to-win.

    Cho wrote: »
    If we care about monetization here, removing gachas decreases that a lot when gacha's mainly have gear, training pots, shadow crystals, and exploration artifacts.
    a debate was held on the original suggestion regarding Characters as Parameters and Characters as Equipment. Many agreed that the impact of a character's core abilities (Str, Dex, Int, Will, Luck, HP, MP, Sta) is what makes the most difference in character potential.

    I don't think anyone disagreed with that but I disagreed with the amount of benefit gear gives a character. If you think character stats>gear, why cut out gachas that include mainly gear? With training pots, you still need the AP that you have to work for. With crystals you still need to complete the mission. Exploration artifacts have big diminishing returns after 3 or 4. Having pets would be easy to spam you say, meanwhile, you're for the idea of selling AP and selling the ability to keep your skills and your pet. The only reason buying AP is even worthwhile is because you softcapped the AP gain by removing rebirths.

    Training potions are unbalanced; they allow you to skip an entire rank of training by spending a bit of cash. Sure, they require AP, but someone could easily let all their skills at Rank F, level a bit, then die and level some more. Imagine the whale logging in on the first day and mastering every talent within the week because they've got the dough and they did just that.

    Gacha gear has been unbalanced for as long as I've been a part of this community, and from what I could read, from even before that. OP enchants, OP armors, and I'm still waiting for them to add Rank 1 Soluna Blades at 0.000001% chance (you know they'd do it). Even if it's not as important as stats, you're meant to cherish your stronger gear due to the bonuses they give that allow you to surpass your natural limits. Just buying it outright isn't the way to go about it, and why play at all if you can buy the most end-game gear anyway?

    As for pets, I don't get what's your issue. Without any summon skills and inventory, they become animal companions. And yeah, you could pay to protect the Ixiom you trained and have kept with you for the past month, because it'd be a real shame to lose it; yet you can still retrain another just as easily. How is this pay-to-win?

    Cho wrote: »
    People suggested to me there would need to be a lot of changes to make a permadeath server work which I disagreed with but your post seems like there are QoL and random adjustments that are just added for no reason. The more you add, the more complex the idea, I believe it would be way harder to implement. I think it'd be fine to suggest your changes like the store-bought reforge change or the player repairing idea to the regular servers first.

    Though it is Quality of Life improvements, I'm not making these suggestions for the base game. I'm making them because I think they're needed to make permadeath palatable, and saying "Put these on every server" would trigger a series of angry responses that have nothing to do with the core suggestion.

    & This is how you're supposed to respond to constructive feedback in the forums; take notes, Cho
    Overall, I feel like your idea split paths from Cho's. Your idea was actually developed thoughtfully and considered the feedback that was given based on his thread, but it's different enough to consider it as its own idea.
    I get that people hate slow movement (I do too), but walking around forces people to take the time and appreciate the environment, the music, etc. Also, I thought it would add some "seriousness" to hunger being a thing again.

    As for squires, I wouldn't make them reset. We died; they didn't. On the other hand, though, I'd want to see their likeability fall a bit like with NPC likeability. (Plus, it's something that can easily be regained.)
    This actually works well. I remember having to run all across the map; Sen Mag was quite the journey; I feel like this would add to the immersive gameplay style, similar to commencing in a pack to deter bandits.
    Speaking of which: Ducats, what would happen to those?

    I also find your monetization system not Pay2Win as Cho claims. It offers marketable products that offer benefits, but not to the point of breaking the game. I feel like the protection of talent is almost similar to an Enchant protection potion in some ways. It protects the object in a risky situation but does not ensure that it succeeds. You'll still lose the powder and the durability of the enchant per attempt. This parallels with the character: You'll protect that specific talent, but not the character and all of his/her/their equipment/other skills/stats.
    The pet saving sounds interesting as well. You do bring up a fair point by saying that it saves the trouble of having to re-tame. It is merely a convenience item rather than something that can be abused to affect gameplay. It doesn't provide an inherently unfair advantage; anyone can also obtain that same pet by taming.
    DraechWolfsinger
  • ChoCho
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    And ultimately, my suggestion is not about adding the stress factor of not dying, but creating a new gameplay experience, a new approach to Mabi. Creating a second game without rebuilding from the ground up, like vanilla Skyrim vs modded Skyrim.

    If this is your idea then I can see where you're coming from with the gameplay changes.

    Though it is Quality of Life improvements, I'm not making these suggestions for the base game. I'm making them because I think they're needed to make permadeath palatable,

    Disagree with this idea that you need this changes to make permadeath palatable but if it's for the sake of making a second alternative Mabi then I understand.
    The suggestion is about making the game more realistic. If you throw Lore out the window, then it's no longer a Fantasy Life MMO, just some high-budget arcade game where you play for the sake of playing rather than for immersion.

    I feel that the Fantasy life aspect doesn't only come from the lore but from the sheer amount of things you're able to do. It's rare in an MMO that you can go from level 1~100 by only doing things like carpentry.
    I don't think it's pay-to-win. You protect the rank of a single talent, but you lose the stat bonuses from every other skill you had. You'll still need to regrind AP, you just save a bit by not releveling your active talent. Though, I guess Mages would get the biggest advantage, but not enough to call it pay-to-win.

    The reason this would be pay-to-win is because you're also selling AP as Pons
    Pon to AP. A conversion rate of 1 for 5, so you can pay to minimize or negate the most punishing effect of Rebirth.

    After a dying with the Talent saver item, you spend some pon to re-level your combat skills and immediately go back to fighting. We're assuming that people are focusing on their main and secondary talents so the chance that someone is on something like Medicine when they die while having high combat skills would have to be way after they're already at comfortable skill ranks right?
    Training potions are unbalanced; they allow you to skip an entire rank of training by spending a bit of cash. Sure, they require AP, but someone could easily let all their skills at Rank F, level a bit, then die and level some more. Imagine the whale logging in on the first day and mastering every talent within the week because they've got the dough and they did just that.

    This only works with your Talent saver item that I already said I thought was P2W, otherwise they lose all skills. This is irrelevant thought if you just want to make an alternative Mabi rather than a permadeath focused Mabi.
    Gacha gear has been unbalanced for as long as I've been a part of this community, and from what I could read, from even before that. OP enchants, OP armors, and I'm still waiting for them to add Rank 1 Soluna Blades at 0.000001% chance (you know they'd do it). Even if it's not as important as stats, you're meant to cherish your stronger gear due to the bonuses they give that allow you to surpass your natural limits. Just buying it outright isn't the way to go about it, and why play at all if you can buy the most end-game gear anyway?

    That's the ideal but if we're talking about monetization, that's just how it is. I think everyone would love if DevCat+ Nexon put all the Gachapon gear into monster drops. About OP armors and enchants, I don't think they're OP enough to stop someone who was going to die anyways from dying. Not to mention armor masteries and Royal Knight Armor level the playing field for
    As for pets, I don't get what's your issue. Without any summon skills and inventory, they become animal companions. And yeah, you could pay to protect the Ixiom you trained and have kept with you for the past month, because it'd be a real shame to lose it; yet you can still retrain another just as easily. How is this pay-to-win?

    No here my point was just that it seemed like you were against pet spam because it makes fighting/leveling too easy yet you'd wanna sell an item that removes most consequences from dying while selling AP as Pons. Your pet idea is fine itself but pet spam isn't as bad as selling AP and talent savers.

    I didn't think your idea would work as a permadeath server because of all the fluff but if this is a new Mabi altogether like you said then that's different.
  • DraechDraech
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    Cho wrote: »
    This only works with your Talent saver item that I already said I thought was P2W, otherwise they lose all skills. This is irrelevant thought if you just want to make an alternative Mabi rather than a permadeath focused Mabi.

    You're familiar with Duncan's Skill Reset and All Skill Reset Capsules, right? They don't remove skills, they unrank them all to F. That's what rebirthing (dying) would do, though without refunding AP. A Talent Skills Protection Potion would just minimize AP cost as you rerank everything, and would protect your "exp to next rank."
  • ChoCho
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    edited January 14, 2019
    Draech wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    This only works with your Talent saver item that I already said I thought was P2W, otherwise they lose all skills. This is irrelevant thought if you just want to make an alternative Mabi rather than a permadeath focused Mabi.

    You're familiar with Duncan's Skill Reset and All Skill Reset Capsules, right? They don't remove skills, they unrank them all to F. That's what rebirthing (dying) would do, though without refunding AP. A Talent Skills Protection Potion would just minimize AP cost as you rerank everything, and would protect your "exp to next rank."
    Instead, upon dying, the character will be forced to leave their body behind and rebirth. Here's what that entails:
    - Rebirthing will reset all of your skills to Rank F. You don't lose any, and the only things lost are AP and the progress you had to next rank. (It works like Duncan's All Skill Reset.)
    Training potions are unbalanced; they allow you to skip an entire rank of training by spending a bit of cash. Sure, they require AP, but someone could easily let all their skills at Rank F, level a bit, then die and level some more.

    I think I'm misunderstanding. So your skills reset to F so all you need to do is get AP to re-rank them? So the difficulty would be in intially ranking the skills and after that it's just a matter of AP. So a whale could just buy the AP with Pons right? But then again a whale would always be using the Talent Skills Protection Potion. If so then yeah Training pots wouldn't work in this kind of system because of the ability to die and keep skill progress.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    If this is implemented as a separate game that happens to be using the Mabinogi engine but in no way effects my Mabinogi account, then fine go to town. It'd be like if they made Vindictus permadeath, it doesn't effect Mabinogi. If such be the case then go right ahead and make it as harsh as you'd like, it won't effect the rest of us playing Mabinogi Classic. But if this is to be forced on our existing version of Mabinogi there will be hell to pay.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    It's a separate server on the same game. It is not forced upon anyone who doesn't want to enter it, just like Mari server and their market prices are not forced on anyone playing Tarlach or Alexina. I wonder if people truly honestly think these permadeath suggestions are intended for the main game. That's really how it appears.
    DraechCho