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This is why the saga had great writing.

AigisAigis
Mabinogi Rep: 940
Posts: 11
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edited April 24, 2019 in General Chat
(And also why your opinion is dumb! )

In some ways it could have been done better, lets get that clear, but a majority of people over the years I have seen complain and whine about the saga being le bad have no understanding of the characters in it, nor their place in the story. I'm about to lay it down for you, and why you're wrong if you think it is bad. You can dislike it, but the ending was fitting for a saga you had no business intervening in.

Point A of criticism: Why are Tarlach and Ruairi so edgy and evil just for the sake of it? Why are they suddenly the token bad guy?

Refutition: The reason Ruairi and Tarlach are like that are because the story was about them. They lost everything, EVERYTHING, and suffered both isolation and repetitive death of those they cared about. Especially Ruairi, he had no choice. He was SOLD to a dragon to be a martyr for the power of his greedy father. He had no choice, he had no say, he was.. property. The more the milletian got involved the more it spun the gods into their misfortune, from morrighan to cichol, things that had NO business screwing with them kept doing so as if in pure spite that they had not been broken enough.

Ruairi: He had everything stolen from him, his loved ones suffered just because things outside of his control kept getting in the way. He found his answers in Iria, and he went to see his friend and show him the clues needed to give them the revenge he sought. Of course, after all of his suffering, he would be angry at all of his loss. He was never the bad guy, but he was never allowed to be the hero, either. Ruairi died as he lived, but in the end he obtained the control he had robbed from him his entire life. He suffered for what, for that? For a bond that only existed in symbolism, that was a shadow of what he had before? At least, in the end, even if it stole his humanity, he would do anything to interfere with the gods who wronged him, and to save his last and only friend, even if it was ONLY in the symbolism that existed in his broken heart.

Tarlach: Tarlach agreed with him, they wanted to break the shackles that bound them, placed by the gods. Tarlach had enough, as did Ruairi. It was time to act, it was time to deny the gods their meddling, their sadistic pleasures. It was time to take back their life, and their world. He even more than Ruairi was desperate for a solution, and once he found his answer it was no doubt that at any cost he would jump at the solution, even if it cost him his life.

The Milletian: You were never a part of it. The story we saw was in no way or regard about us. We were not the heroes of the saga, we were the villains, and we lost. We absolutely were defeated at every turn, we were sealed, told to shut up, we were denied the power we were used to and it bothered people. We saw it all happen, we saw everything we could touch become rotten with the influence of the divine, and could do nothing to stop it. As in a way, we were their agent, we were to blame. This is echo'd by the haunting memories you see later on, after Ruairi sacrifices himself- the memories of all in the soul stream, the what if- "Am I a monster?". It was not our time to fight, we were to just shut up and watch as the souls and hearts of the two men hurt the most in the entirety of the world were to make their stand as they finished their story, and, it was their right to call the shots- not us.


People hated that, they felt retconned, there was no such retcon, just a minor inconsistency here or there which were necessary to tell the story they wished to tell. The story was not bad, you were just not paying attention.

The way these two lived was poetic, it was beautiful and tragic. And it absolutely impacted the milletian. They lost, they couldn't save anything. They had no control, they were defeated before they even started the fight. They could stop nothing, and they could save nobody. That was a story that needed to be told. That was a tale that began before the milletian first saw Erinn, before you nor I even picked up the game.It was a story that started over ten years ago even in our time, it was a story that we were not welcome in. The story of tragedy, of loss, of being robbed of their happiness. It was a saga, a saga of loss, of pain, of seeking answer, of revenge, and of compromise.

It was their story, bois. Tarlach and Ruairi. It did not matter what our opinion was. They got their ending, they got their closure, to a degree. And they payed the ultimate price. Tarlach, his mind, his wisdom. The mind of a wizard he valued so much, was lost, returned to a child. At least he got a second chance at a normal life even if it was only symbolic. Ruairi- his control, his love, his family, his very humanity, and even his friends. He had nothing, he was never allowed to have anything, so he took it all back in a moment of the ultimate spite in order to, even if for only just a moment, take control of his life so he could end it on his own terms, in spite of everything. In spite of you, interloper.

And Mari, Nao. She lost her life, she lost her family, she lost her friends, she lost her attachments, she lost her humanity, she lost nearly everything but her heart and soul. Her very life was stripped from her, the life she set out to live and reclaim. Now all she can do is sit from beyond and mourn for the sad fate of those she used to know as she does her duties. All of this was Cichol, and Morrighan's fault. It was their accursed fault, and they had to pay. They had to suffer what it was like to be shut out, to be told you are not a part of this. "We are not your toys, vermin."

It was stated before in the saga that it was their reasonings. They. Are. Not. Toys. And you had no say, your opinion did not matter, you, an interloper, were in the way and it was their turn, the turn of the true stars of the story we inserted ourselves into, to act. And it was a VERY fitting end for that saga, a saga that again started before you nor I even realized it had begun, before we ever touched mabinogi.

When a star is branded with iron in its heart, what choice does it have but to explode in a brilliant conclusion to its fiery fate?

How fitting an end indeed. And for those who disagree, you likely do not understand the complexities of trying to write off of such a complicated and convoluted story- to interpret the minds of those who came before as you are handed the pen in turn.
DraechSherri
  1. Who was your favorite boi in the saga?21 votes
    1. Red dead martyr
       57% (12 votes)
    2. Wizards gone shota
       43% (9 votes)

Comments

  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
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    ....thanks for breaking my heart again.
    Aigis
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,590
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    Milletians are the fault of everything.
    Aigispawcalypse
  • CrimsCrims
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,295
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    Milletians are the fault of everything.

    Milletians are aliens.
    KensamaofmariWolfsingerAigispawcalypse
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,590
    Posts: 7,413
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    Milletians are the fault of everything.

    Milletians are aliens.

    Illegal ones.
    THICCthighssavelives
  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
    Posts: 1,007
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    I JUST WANTED TO HELP AND SAVE AND CUDDLE THEM BECAUSE THEY NEED LOVE AND LIFE AND GOOD THINGS!
    I DIDN'T WANT ANYTHING ELSE
    tumblr_inline_or4whcrg1z1ueut6r_540.gif
    Aigis
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,590
    Posts: 7,413
    Member
    Wolfsinger wrote: »
    I JUST WANTED TO HELP AND SAVE AND CUDDLE THEM BECAUSE THEY NEED LOVE AND LIFE AND GOOD THINGS!
    I DIDN'T WANT ANYTHING ELSE
    tumblr_inline_or4whcrg1z1ueut6r_540.gif

    Accepting your hugs anytime
    223px-Ferghus.png
  • AigisAigis
    Mabinogi Rep: 940
    Posts: 11
    Member
    edited April 24, 2019
    You're welcome for a writers interpretation of such a convoluted story.
  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
    Posts: 1,007
    Member
    Wolfsinger wrote: »
    I JUST WANTED TO HELP AND SAVE AND CUDDLE THEM BECAUSE THEY NEED LOVE AND LIFE AND GOOD THINGS!
    I DIDN'T WANT ANYTHING ELSE
    tumblr_inline_or4whcrg1z1ueut6r_540.gif

    Accepting your hugs anytime
    223px-Ferghus.png

    Um
    Would rather not
    He's fine where and when and however he is.
    KensamaofmariBronzebreak
  • KeiyomaKeiyoma
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,300
    Posts: 44
    Member
    edited April 24, 2019
    I really enjoyed Saga, it was one of my favorite story arcs, but my grief with it came from the Aces. I absolutely hate the fact they put those stupid Aces into the story (and then did so again in Divine Knights). They're boring, flat characters; half of them don't even have names. "Oh, hey, Treasure Hunter, let's go visit Culinary Artist!" What an absolutely foolish choice. If they were left out, and the story focused more on the Milletian and the Original Heroes, it'd of been so much better.
    MoroldLeinei
  • PanPan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,745
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    There really isn't anything great about it. Just a waste of time, there should be an instant skip all dialogue for first-timers.
    THICCthighssavelives
  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
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    Pan wrote: »
    There really isn't anything great about it. Just a waste of time, there should be an instant skip all dialogue for first-timers.

    brace-yourself-the-qskruf.jpg
    Jodhi
  • ChaosShadowChaosShadow
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,310
    Posts: 128
    Member
    As another individual who generally appreciates Mabinogi's lore, I thank you for doing your best to paint the Saga in a better light.

    But realistically, Saga simply was not that memorable of a story to me. Perhaps it's because of exactly what you say- because of how the story never was the Milletian's. Because it was not our story to lead, there is no point in remembering it.

    The few things I remember from Saga, clearly, is how disappointing the battle with Macha was, how useless the Aces were (Not to mention their flat sense of character), and how satisfying the final fight with Ruairi was. Even if he did sacrifice himself in the end, it felt like I finally got to do what I had been wanting to do for years; I was given the chance to take his life, and put an end to what constantly felt like a pointless conflict between us.

    Ruairi had no right to treat the Milletian as an enemy. I disliked how he blindly believed what Esras told him in G2 and assumed that we were the ones who killed his brother. After that, any time Ruairi was involved, it seemed like he only ever blamed us for his problems when he could have tried to ask us for help instead. With everything we do from the moment we arrive up until Saga, you would think he would have understood the fact that we are supposed to be heroes, just like the kind he wanted to be.

    But this is me going off of things I vaguely remember from years ago when I did the gens, so I may be perceiving things wrong. Feel free to correct me on anything, if you'd like, but I would appreciate it if you didn't do so with the same unnecessarily condescending tone you used throughout your post, OP.
    WolfsingerLeineiSherri
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,365
    Posts: 355
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    edited April 24, 2019
    While I agree with everything regarding the purpose of the story (that it's about Ruairi and Tarlach), what made Saga: Iria so unmemorable was that you don't follow their story; their story happens, and you run around with idiots looking for things that are in no way interesting or useful. You look for rocks, a black mongoose's white tail and other nonsense regarding a curse that doesn't carry much of a narrative significance, and where you constantly fight opponents that are just names and values rather than fleshed-out enemies (I'm talking about the demons, ghouls and Cessair).

    Now imagine if, instead of running around doing stupid stuff, you wandered upon hints of all the suffering Tarlach has been through looking for the right path, or if you had to actually get involved in preventing Millia from siding with Ruairi just to spite you; this would have made the narrative so much more continuous, rather than a series of unfortunate encounters with shamans. Ruairi and Tarlach remind me of Zuko and Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender; what made these two so great was not just having insight into their past, but also how they chose to act in relation to the main characters (how Zuko showed he was not just pure hatred while in the Dialee prison, and how Azula had slowly evolved until the final encounter with Zuko and Katara).
    Melmii
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,590
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    With Saga, concludes an arc of all the events preluding the Milletians' arrival and the generation story lines that culminated with Saga. By putting together the lore prelude to the Milletian and going through all the storylines in order since, you can get a clear storyline that it is all an inevitable path towards the end of Erinn... or is it?
  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
    Posts: 1,007
    Member
    With Saga, concludes an arc of all the events preluding the Milletians' arrival and the generation story lines that culminated with Saga. By putting together the lore prelude to the Milletian and going through all the storylines in order since, you can get a clear storyline that it is all an inevitable path towards the end of Erinn... or is it?

    This is where someone posts that 'The End is Near!' meme right?
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,590
    Posts: 7,413
    Member
    Wolfsinger wrote: »
    With Saga, concludes an arc of all the events preluding the Milletians' arrival and the generation story lines that culminated with Saga. By putting together the lore prelude to the Milletian and going through all the storylines in order since, you can get a clear storyline that it is all an inevitable path towards the end of Erinn... or is it?

    This is where someone posts that 'The End is Near!' meme right?

    The end is coming.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,110
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    Here's the deal, Saga is disliked because it has actual poor writing. First and foremost is the Millitian is never really engaged in the story at all. The Millitian, the player, in saga itself could easily be replaced by any of the character present and it would not matter. In fact the player could easily be lumped in with the greater collective of "The Millitian race" and it wouldn't matter. This is the first poor writing, it made the player, whom the game and story is suppose to engage, feel like they weren't participating. The players will more than likely feel like just a normal grunt handling all the work and barely being acknowledged as being there. So the first point is that the story fails to engage the player/viewer.

    Next are the character arcs. The characters we are shown and get to know have no character arcs. Millia starts off angry at the Millitian and ends up angry at the Millitian, only in a coma. Her story never finishes, she, like the player, was just there as plot coupons. Akule starts and ends off a smug shaman only now he's ACTUALLY homeless since he sealed a dragon in his homeland. Here's the deal, none of the characters introduced were actually likable, except maybe Akule in his homeless man persona. All of them treat you with contempt and hatred throughout the entire Saga 1, like you're only tolerated because you're the only one on the cast dirty enough to do all the lifting while they camp out at their trailers putting on more make up. None of them evolve. Erawen is beloved because she had a legitimate character arc. She starts off mistrustful of the Millitian and gradually opens up, turning from a spoiled princess to a responsible and wise queen. Her character is deeply tied with the actions done by the player and it engages player's emotion, we become invested in her story, and as active participants, we feel a strong connection to her. The saga characters do not invoke these feelings.

    We also need to find what the point of view is from. In the game, this is easy, the player. The point of view has to be from the player's perspective, because unlike movies or TV shows, we are actual participants in the world. Our avatars are the actual window in this world. Saga shifts focus away from this point of view which is confusing. We are not really relating to any of the characters present because the story shifts to their point of view and then back to us with no rhythm or reason. The characters and plot no longer feel like they have any meaning to the player anymore. Past generations (Chapter 1 is a great example), the point of view is always on us. Our victories, successes and failures feel like us. The plot progresses because we as a character in the story did actions. The story in saga on the other hand just feels like the times we do anything is just to pad out the run time, which is boring. Its poor writing, we feel detached, we're not engaged, we're not part of the story.

    Now let's move on the Tarlach and Ruairi. Ruairi has lost everything, but Tarlach hasn't. He still has someone caring for him, Kristell, and he knows this. Second, Tarlach and Ruairi's actions are rendered completely meaningless before the story even began. Their goal is break the control of the Gods over mortals, which has already happened. The remaining active Gods are sealed, dead, or retired from activity. Their plan hinged on inviting foreign Gods to combat the ruling Gods so that the divine elements will destroy each other and free mortals from divine influence. Except Erinn's Gods, due to infighting, are ill equipped to combat outside threats. As we see in G19-G21, having other Gods come in is even more horrible than normal. We have a possibly hostile God on par with the strongest deity of the world that wants to convert all the mortals into mindless troops to invade and conquer other worlds. Tarlach, being a close confidant at no point ever asks the Millitian for help in breaking free from the Gods, at which point he'll find out that Morrighan has retired, Nuadha is sealed, and Cichol is dead. Tarlach's change in suddenly asking for help is when he suddenly realized that summoning the goddess of destruction, is 'oh crap' we just summoned the goddess of destruction with a hard on for destroying the world.

    Ruairi is probably the only person to have a character arc, and that's just a distant and far off affair. He begins the story as someone who's just following the motions, he's the black knight on the behest of his friend. He own hesitation and jumping to conclusion causes him to hurt people he wants to care for even more and by the end of saga he has finally found a resolute motivation. By killing himself and punching a hole in the protective barrier keeping all of the filthy xenos and serial killers from invading Erinn. So we have that.

    Finally we have the overall impact of saga. Which is none. We're introduced a shadowy organization formed from the descendants of the first settlers who have legitimate beef with a certain goddess... Who promptly just disappear after the story ends. Bhafel and Langu don't even contribute anything to Saga 2, they were, for all intents and purposes, not even really bosses for the B-plot. We could very well just skip all of saga, and none of the events would impact the general memory of the over all story. Bhafel and langu could just be regulated to the OTHER dragons that pop up to wreck things, and the whole outworld gods invading could be Morrighan leaving Erinn and weakening divine power over the world.

    This is why saga is poorly written, poorly received, and was overall just a poor addition to the game. It was unengaging, the characters were bland cardboard cut outs (more than usual), there was almost no character arcs, we have poor character motivations, no lasting impact, no emotional investment in the characters beyond riding on investments from OTHER more successful stories and was over all, forgettable. In fact, one of the main characters gets a BETTER character arc in the chain of destruction than in saga 2 where he stars. Merlin opens up to you over the story revealing that he's more than a 1D character, his show of confidence hides some of his insecurities and buries his failures, at that point he became more than just the poster boy for the magic update he was the created for. G21 also continues that trend, writing him with an actual character arc even though he was a side character for that story. And in a turnabout way, HIS actions influence the character. His honestly, and opening up may or may not cause the PLAYER to begin trusting him enough to let them in on a world important plot of their own decision. THAT was good writing.
    KeiyomaLeineiAigisSherriChaosShadow
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    The purpose of Saga was to make it like a drama. That's why they made it into seasons and episodes featuring a "cast" of characters and even had a post show event afterwards.
    Lialin
  • CrimsCrims
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,295
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    Wolfsinger wrote: »
    Pan wrote: »
    There really isn't anything great about it. Just a waste of time, there should be an instant skip all dialogue for first-timers.

    brace-yourself-the-qskruf.jpg

    Hopefully more formidable than Greta.
  • WolfsingerWolfsinger
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,075
    Posts: 1,007
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    edited April 26, 2019
    Gaea wrote: »
    Wolfsinger wrote: »
    Pan wrote: »
    There really isn't anything great about it. Just a waste of time, there should be an instant skip all dialogue for first-timers.

    brace-yourself-the-qskruf.jpg

    Hopefully more formidable than Greta.

    *chokes*
    GAEA
    NO
    BAD
This discussion has been closed.