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What if Hailstorm became like Giant Fullswing

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  • CrimsCrims
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    Hailstorm has another benefit. Much like the projectiles you launch, it also makes you look just as...cool.

    Bliss!!! >_<
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Let's throw some Hail storm revamp ideas out there:

    Idea 1: Make hail storm similar to shock, the player spends the same time casting it and it forms a storm around the player, it automatically throws hail crystals as soon as enemies are in range, instead of a bigger stronger crystal, it creates 5 crystals and it can lock on and attack up to 5 enemies at once, the player is free to move around and use other skills while Hail storm is in effect. Duration is 30 secs, cool down is 60. Each crystal's reload time is 2 secs.

    Idea 2: Hail storm is similar to rain casting, it creates an area where enemies take constant damage and get a speed debuff.

    Idea 3: The skill behaves as it is now, but it cannot be canceled when the player is knocked back. The player is free to move while the skill is in effect and is also permitted to use ice bolt and ice spear while the skill is in effect. Normal attacks will launch hail crystals, when using ice bolt, you get an extra ice bolt charge for every single charge, when using ice spear, the resulting explosion freeze does not degrade in damage as it spreads.

    Idea 4: Hail storm is exactly the same as it is now, but the crystal charges faster and has a bigger splash radius (~800) and longer range (~2000). There is also a chance to inflict Ice spear freeze effect.
    LadameRadiant DawnTolnaKageitoAlexLight
  • CrimsCrims
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    I have an idea. Allow us to move with hailstorm if spellwalk is in use. Just like with fireball, ice spear, and thunder.

    Oh wait but that's too logical.
    LutetiumChoFOXAssassin
  • ChoCho
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    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »

    O' great lords of mabi please hear my plea
    Share with us lowly peasants your godly intellect
    And show us all how to use this skill
    By recommending to use other skills
    That don't even have a similar effect
    Or really a similar feel.

    I'm sorry but you're probably braindead if you think this skill is good. An npc wand with nothing on it aside from chaincast 4 will out dps a step 7 staff because you're gonna spend most of your time running around trying to charge hail. I challenge either of you to find one situation where hail is better than any other magic skill, and prove it.

    From the way I see it, Fire is knockback and burst damage, Lightning is stun and AOE with quick cast times, and Ice is repeated hits and conserving mana. When you use Hailstorm it drains a fixed amount of mana and lets you basically magic final hit until the duration runs out. CC Firebolt on the other hand drains you dry of mana faster and has no AOE.

    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack. Firebolt with a step 6 Fire wand for me is doing about 9800 damage with a critical hit. Hailstorm with 5 charges hits for 16000 damage with a critical hit. At 4 charges, Hailstorm out damages Firebolt with 10800 damage with a critical hit.

    In solo play, Firebolt might feel more useful because you can move around with it charged but in party play with a teammate defending you, Hailstorm is going to win. Now maybe there's some 50mil reforge item that lets firebolt beat Hailstorm in damage and mana cost but I'm not seeing it. So just use other skills if you don't like Hailstorm.

    If you can complain about Hailstorm being weak, why not focus on why Icebolt and Lightning bolt aren't as cancerous as Firebolt. Let's just make every magic skill into CC Firebolt..
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Cho wrote: »
    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack.
    Now that you've mastered the basic skill functionality against young brown foxes, I suggest trying Hailstorm and Firebolt in Feth Fiadha advanced so you can really judge how good the skills are.
    BlissfulkillFOXAssassin
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
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    Cho wrote: »
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »

    O' great lords of mabi please hear my plea
    Share with us lowly peasants your godly intellect
    And show us all how to use this skill
    By recommending to use other skills
    That don't even have a similar effect
    Or really a similar feel.

    I'm sorry but you're probably braindead if you think this skill is good. An npc wand with nothing on it aside from chaincast 4 will out dps a step 7 staff because you're gonna spend most of your time running around trying to charge hail. I challenge either of you to find one situation where hail is better than any other magic skill, and prove it.

    From the way I see it, Fire is knockback and burst damage, Lightning is stun and AOE with quick cast times, and Ice is repeated hits and conserving mana. When you use Hailstorm it drains a fixed amount of mana and lets you basically magic final hit until the duration runs out. CC Firebolt on the other hand drains you dry of mana faster and has no AOE.

    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack. Firebolt with a step 6 Fire wand for me is doing about 9800 damage with a critical hit. Hailstorm with 5 charges hits for 16000 damage with a critical hit. At 4 charges, Hailstorm out damages Firebolt with 10800 damage with a critical hit.

    In solo play, Firebolt might feel more useful because you can move around with it charged but in party play with a teammate defending you, Hailstorm is going to win. Now maybe there's some 50mil reforge item that lets firebolt beat Hailstorm in damage and mana cost but I'm not seeing it. So just use other skills if you don't like Hailstorm.

    If you can complain about Hailstorm being weak, why not focus on why Icebolt and Lightning bolt aren't as cancerous as Firebolt. Let's just make every magic skill into CC Firebolt..

    Someone with probably under 1k int claiming they understand what endgame meta is.

    Person A
    Loads hail, charges to 5 stacks and fires for 16.5k damage at 600 magic attack, or 48k with a crit (Step 7 Blue staff, reforged and enchanted)

    Person B
    Spams 7/8 firebolts in the time it takes Person A to load and fire hail. Firebolt doing 7.5k, 18k if crit (Step 6 wand, casting speed 20, no enchants)

    A does at most 48k damage, B does at least 52500, at most 126000. You can't use an off hand mana boosting item with a staff, and since most late game players will have 2.5k+ mana, mana cost isn't valid in pretty much any setting because inspiration is a % based restore.

    So not only does it do considerably less amounts of damage, you can't move, it gets interrupted easily, and in your example needs 2 people. You're ignoring entirely that hail takes a massive amount of time to charge vs firebolt too.
    FOXAssassin
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »

    O' great lords of mabi please hear my plea
    Share with us lowly peasants your godly intellect
    And show us all how to use this skill
    By recommending to use other skills
    That don't even have a similar effect
    Or really a similar feel.

    I'm sorry but you're probably braindead if you think this skill is good. An npc wand with nothing on it aside from chaincast 4 will out dps a step 7 staff because you're gonna spend most of your time running around trying to charge hail. I challenge either of you to find one situation where hail is better than any other magic skill, and prove it.

    From the way I see it, Fire is knockback and burst damage, Lightning is stun and AOE with quick cast times, and Ice is repeated hits and conserving mana. When you use Hailstorm it drains a fixed amount of mana and lets you basically magic final hit until the duration runs out. CC Firebolt on the other hand drains you dry of mana faster and has no AOE.

    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack. Firebolt with a step 6 Fire wand for me is doing about 9800 damage with a critical hit. Hailstorm with 5 charges hits for 16000 damage with a critical hit. At 4 charges, Hailstorm out damages Firebolt with 10800 damage with a critical hit.

    In solo play, Firebolt might feel more useful because you can move around with it charged but in party play with a teammate defending you, Hailstorm is going to win. Now maybe there's some 50mil reforge item that lets firebolt beat Hailstorm in damage and mana cost but I'm not seeing it. So just use other skills if you don't like Hailstorm.

    If you can complain about Hailstorm being weak, why not focus on why Icebolt and Lightning bolt aren't as cancerous as Firebolt. Let's just make every magic skill into CC Firebolt..

    Someone with probably under 1k int claiming they understand what endgame meta is.

    Person A
    Loads hail, charges to 5 stacks and fires for 16.5k damage at 600 magic attack, or 48k with a crit (Step 7 Blue staff, reforged and enchanted)

    Person B
    Spams 7/8 firebolts in the time it takes Person A to load and fire hail. Firebolt doing 7.5k, 18k if crit (Step 6 wand, casting speed 20, no enchants)

    A does at most 48k damage, B does at least 52500, at most 126000. You can't use an off hand mana boosting item with a staff, and since most late game players will have 2.5k+ mana, mana cost isn't valid in pretty much any setting because inspiration is a % based restore.

    So not only does it do considerably less amounts of damage, you can't move, it gets interrupted easily, and in your example needs 2 people. You're ignoring entirely that hail takes a massive amount of time to charge vs firebolt too.

    Just to add to this, Firebolt is also massively more versatile, first and foremost is that you don't lose mobility when you have it loaded which means you can pre-load the shot and then move into position after. Speed cast reforges also affect it, meaning that you can drastically increase its overall damage output. Firebolt is also not an investment, if you load the skill you are only accountable for that one shot. You can commit to other another skill immediately after it while for hail storm, you are more or less committed to its duration or suffer a casting penalty for building it up again. In all, there's no aspect of hail storm that firebolt simply does better besides the splash. Even that is a situational advantage as the mobs usually have to be herded into a corner to prevent them from being tossed all over the place. There is a reason why no end-gamer built weapons for hail storm and rather have firebolt bonuses, because it's just not worth the investment. Even if you go full commitment and boost Hail storm to its absolute limit with reforges, fire bolt will still match its output with none of its drawbacks.
    FOXAssassin
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited May 7
    Lutetium wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack.
    Now that you've mastered the basic skill functionality against young brown foxes, I suggest trying Hailstorm and Firebolt in Feth Fiadha advanced so you can really judge how good the skills are.

    I thought my firebolts did loads of damage, but this post was an absolute burn.
    LutetiumRadiant DawnFOXAssassin
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
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    edited May 7
    Lutetium wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    So just to be sure I tested this with 272 magic attack.
    Now that you've mastered the basic skill functionality against young brown foxes, I suggest trying Hailstorm and Firebolt in Feth Fiadha advanced so you can really judge how good the skills are.

    I thought my firebolts did loads of damage, but this post was an absolute burn.

    If he actually needs the deep hard facts he can just look at my screenshot that I made using my spreadsheet for magic
    e383bb8260.png
    This is assuming 1500 int with 600MA no speed reforges besides from Magic Weapon mastery and int/5000 casting speed bonus
    LutetiumFOXAssassin
  • ChoCho
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    Owntrolf wrote: »

    If he actually needs the deep hard facts he can just look at my screenshot that I made using my spreadsheet for magic
    e383bb8260.png
    This is assuming 1500 int with 600MA no speed reforges besides from Magic Weapon mastery and int/5000 casting speed bonus

    Should all skills in the game be balanced around the newest highest level end game content? Does DPS take into consideration knockback, mana consumption, monsters that actually move and not just the DPS minigame in Festia? I sure do love random data with no context.
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Someone with probably under 1k int...

    Why are you so hostile even though you've only posted 8 times? We're talking about whether Hailstorm needs to be revamped, not what works in whatever you think endgame is. If you want to claim hailstorm isn't as versatile as firebolt, I agree and we can stop there. If you or anyone else on this forum actually think having 2500 mana and 600 MA with maxed casting reforges is the norm, you're crazy. I'm saying it has it's uses in regards to mana consumption, damage, or even if someone only specifically wants to run a staff + something that isn't a wand. Hailstorm becomes a CC Firebolt alternative.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Just to add to this, Firebolt ...

    Yes, firebolt is strong. Rather than introduce a bigger powercreep because firebolt is at the top, maybe making firebolt weaker or adding versatility to other skills is a better idea. I'm not for revamps but I don't mind Icebolt having a slowing effect or lightning bolt increasing damage on max charge. Even what that Gaea said about adding the ability to spellwalk with hailstorm would be fine or adding some sort of Ice wall with durability that gives you ADV Heavy while you use it would be fine.


  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
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    edited May 7
    Cho wrote: »
    Owntrolf wrote: »

    If he actually needs the deep hard facts he can just look at my screenshot that I made using my spreadsheet for magic
    e383bb8260.png
    This is assuming 1500 int with 600MA no speed reforges besides from Magic Weapon mastery and int/5000 casting speed bonus

    Should all skills in the game be balanced around the newest highest level end game content? Does DPS take into consideration knockback, mana consumption, monsters that actually move and not just the DPS minigame in Festia? I sure do love random data with no context.
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Someone with probably under 1k int...

    Why are you so hostile even though you've only posted 8 times? We're talking about whether Hailstorm needs to be revamped, not what works in whatever you think endgame is. If you want to claim hailstorm isn't as versatile as firebolt, I agree and we can stop there. If you or anyone else on this forum actually think having 2500 mana and 600 MA with maxed casting reforges is the norm, you're crazy. I'm saying it has it's uses in regards to mana consumption, damage, or even if someone only specifically wants to run a staff + something that isn't a wand. Hailstorm becomes a CC Firebolt alternative.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Just to add to this, Firebolt ...

    Yes, firebolt is strong. Rather than introduce a bigger powercreep because firebolt is at the top, maybe making firebolt weaker or adding versatility to other skills is a better idea. I'm not for revamps but I don't mind Icebolt having a slowing effect or lightning bolt increasing damage on max charge. Even what that Gaea said about adding the ability to spellwalk with hailstorm would be fine or adding some sort of Ice wall with durability that gives you ADV Heavy while you use it would be fine.


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iWOPcnaS4QXJaj-84j7TWS-ZmdPE2XftlUy5wWUn5eM/edit?usp=sharing

    You can make a copy on your own Google Drive or download the Excel file to play around with this spreadsheet.
    -The formula is based off the formula you can find publicly on https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats#Magic_Damage

    The DPS assumes you have perfect ping and casting and is towards single target with no knockbacks or any interruptions.
    If you want to do multi target for other skills like Fireball, just multiply by how many targets there are. Many of the skills don't break even with Firebolt until you start hitting at least more than 3-4 targets at once.

    Because Firebolt is the only skill that doesnt screw you over because
    -No charge loss on knockdown/knockback
    -Its fast cast(CC4 wand)
    -You have mobility
    -High damage

    The every other magic screws you over besides possibly lightning rod
    -Icebolt loses 1 charge on knockback and has bad damage
    -Lightningbolt loses 1 charge on knockback and has bad damage
    -Ice Spear loses 2 charge on knockback and has medium damage but has a 50% damage penalty for anyone else attacking the frozen targets causes multiaggro on yourself
    -Fireball loses 1 charge on knockback and has okay damage but still isnt as good as Firebolt at damage and causes multiaggro on yourself
    -Thunder loses 1 charge on knockback and has mediocre damage

    -Icebolt/Lightningbolt/Thunder gets you killed if the mob has mana deflector because they will ignore a majority of the hitstun, Thunder will prevent you from switching gear until the first lightning strike comes down.
    -Hailstorm loses the entire cast on knockdown and is a massive waste of time to cast for so little damage.


    -Firebolt is good because it literally keeps you safe with forced knockback and does high damage with little that can interrupt it
    LutetiumFOXAssassin
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Cho wrote: »
    Should all skills in the game be balanced around the newest highest level end game content?
    Yes, good game design would involve keeping all skills relevant regardless of content tier and encourage people to use various skill sets in synergy with each other. Mabinogi has Magnum Shot, Final Hit, and Chain Sweep instead. Much of the content it's self is also in need of rebalance as well but I understand not everyone is experienced in video game design or 68K ASM; Not that Mabinogi runs on such hardware of course.
    Cho wrote: »
    If you or anyone else on this forum actually think having 2500 mana and 600 MA with maxed casting reforges is the norm, you're crazy.
    You question his hostility then proceed to call him crazy; But that aside in about 2 years my giant can reach 2500 mana and 600 matk almost trivially without "50 million gold reforges" at age 11 which gives 0 int per levelup. This only really giving the game an hour or two a day of actual play, and 0 play on many days scattered throughout. Needless to say the elf character on my account I played about 7 years has similar stats, but the NA mabinogi servers have been up since 2008 and much of the player base have played longer than me so it is actually more normal than you may believe to have 2500 mana and 600 matk even for casual players like myself who don't pour thousands into the cash shop every month. The KR servers have been up since 2003, and there are public leader boards on the KR mabinogi website showing many characters over level 300,000 total so it's pretty unreasonable and rather insulting to the player base as a whole to believe that NA would be so far behind on average that many can't even hit 2500 mana and 600 matk.
    Cho wrote: »
    Yes, firebolt is strong. Rather than introduce a bigger powercreep because firebolt is at the top, maybe making firebolt weaker or adding versatility to other skills is a better idea.
    You're revealing here that you're completely out of touch with the bigger problem, in saying firebolt needs nerfed or that firebolt is "top" you have made it clear that you're viewing the entire issue from a tiny bubble outside of which resides every other skill in the game, most of which completely trample and usefulness firebolt may have and put into real perspective just how horrible and objectively worthless Hailstorm, Meteor, Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Fusion Bolt, Ice Spear, Fireball, and Thunder are as skills; Why do you think you never see anyone using them seriously even in low end content?

    Lets be real here, Act 7 deprecated all three int magics as soon as it was introduced, that proceeded to be deprecated in low tier content by shooting rush, then in higher tier content by the combo of shooting rush and kunai storm infinitely comboing together, eventually shooting rush fell out of favor to chain sweep, and now final hit with massive splash radius 2 handed swords completely obliterate any real usefulness of Ice Spear Thunder and Fireball when it comes to clear speed and cost efficiency even if you wait out the cooldown instead of using chain sweep and don't fight while final hit is down you will still complete pretty much all content faster than using int magic. (Sub FH out for Fullswing if giant, crash shot if elf, the same is true regardless)

    And Firebolt, hahahahahah, FIREBOLT, what an ABSOLUTE joke that is. The only time you're going to use Firebolt serious short of purposely crippling yourself because you're like me and like to pick "Mage" in your RPGs, is against Shape of Horror in Sidhe because Firebolt kills them faster without cast speed reforge than sheering it with the shortswords the wisps drop (and maybe a ghast or two in peaca int if you ever even run it because the rewards are outdated already). Anywhere else you would even CONSIDER Firebolt it's outclassed by Chain Impale, Smash+Bash (G), Support shot+Smash (H/E), Magnum shot (even human's 1.5s cooldown version), even Fighter in it's current crippled pre-g23 state.

    Oh and did I forget to mention all monsters take less from magic type damage due to mprot scaling faster than normal prot? and piercing weapons only existing for Melee and Range? Magic is a dumpster fire and a black sheep of skill sets, and Hailstorm is objectively the worst of the lot.

    *Blaze and Lightning rod are exceptions, they're the only good magic skills and even then are situational to the point it tends to be easier to just chain sweep/fh/fullswing/crash shot. But hey 108k on a bear with blaze 17 gloves and a low roll savage fire with no reforge, that's at least 30k in Tech Duinn on one of the mobs that doesn't have mana deflector off of someone's smash knockdown!

    But honestly let me know when Firebolt can 2 shot the Succubus Queen like Support Shot+Lance Charge, then we can have a discussion about nerfing it because it's not the worst skill out of a collection of terrible and borderline unusable skills, ok Cho. Maybe by then Daggers will scale so high they'll also be in need of a nerf.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited May 8
    Wait, are you actually advocating nerfing a skill instead of improving older ones?

    Nerfing=/=Revamping Older skills

    Firebolt doesn't trivialize content. Hailstorm is just bad because a lack of mobility without the DPS, range, or utility to make it worthwhile, with an inconsistent casting/charge time that is not affected Vivace. It makes sense why this is since it was the first advanced magic skill ages before lightning rod and meteor were even implemented.

    The reason for bringing up firebolt is that if one is maining magic, firebolt is the equivalent to an archer's magnum shot. It is a spam, high damage single target skill, and due to this, also shares many similarities to hailstorm, which functions as a high damage spam attack too.
    FOXAssassin
  • AlshianAlshian
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    Guys magic needs a buff, I hardly see anyone USE magic unless they are training it to get it over with or only to use a tiny few magic skills like, Lightning rod and Shockwave while meteor strike was the first skill to use because of how dumb the cooldown is. They need to raise the formula for Magic damage and give it properties to make it have more situational use. Although it would be nice to have all magic skill's cooldown removed. MP always never hit 0 unless well your very dedicated to magic or using Mana shield even being the healer in the raid. (Lategame)
  • ChoCho
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    edited May 8
    Pretty sure suggesting someone might be crazy is more tame then assuming someone is braindead because they disagree.

    Owntrolf - I understand your table which is why I'm saying context is important. I agree Firebolt can beat Hailstorm in cases but disagree that a revamp is the solution. Mabinogi gives players so many options that could be considered sub-optimal but might have different reasons for use and I honestly believe Ice magic runs on an idea of mana costs and repeated hits which puts Hailstorm in a slightly different place than firebolt.

    Lutetium - I don't think you should call anyone out of touch when you're comparing NA Mabi to KR Mabi, that has been said to have way more popularity. You think all magic outside of Blaze and Lightning rod is objectively worthless? This is a big assumption on my part but I'm going to assume the reason you don't see people using all these types of magic is because the game has about 10+ different skill sets available to kill things with and chainslash is the newest one.

    You can still see new players running around with different types of weapons but on the other hand I've seen some of the veterans around here openly tell new players "don't use knuckles, fighter is bad" "just buy a chainblade if you're an elf" and other fun-killing advice. And I've definitely seen people using int magic in runs. If you find mprot being too much of a problem, just use Hydra btw. That's what it's for. Though it would be nice if there were other magic defense/prot shredding options. There might be a technique or crusader skill for that idk.

    Blissfulkill - I understand this but sort of disagree about it trivializing things. Was leveling up a low level 300 ish mage a while ago and traded over a CC firewand to clear some SMs and even with rF firebolt there's a significant damage increase. It can trivialize high HP mobs ,early on, when the game is encouraging and teaching you to use magic+counter and icebolt combos as a solution.

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.
    FOXAssassin
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Cho wrote: »
    I don't think you should call anyone out of touch when you're comparing NA Mabi to KR Mabi, that has been said to have way more popularity.
    Nice bad faith strawman trying to make a statement about how long the game has been up and that NA's playerbase isn't as low level on average as you're implying somehow about how many people play the game.
    Cho wrote: »
    You think all magic outside of Blaze and Lightning rod is objectively worthless?
    Yes aside from the single use of Firebolt on Shape of Horror in Sidhe, which is inferior to Water Cannon with an erg 50 cylinder in the same situation but more accessible.
    Cho wrote: »
    This is a big assumption on my part but I'm going to assume the reason you don't see people using all these types of magic is because the game has about 10+ different skill sets available to kill things with and chainslash is the newest one.
    Maybe you've forgotten how magic's usage completely fell off the radar in g17s2 when the Puppet talent was added and act 7 single handedly replaced all int magics in damage, area, usability and speed after the not-so-modest decline in magic use after the Fighter destiny came out in g16's initial update and deprecated all but Fireball, Ice Spear, and Blaze.
    Cho wrote: »
    You can still see new players running around with different types of weapons but on the other hand I've seen some of the veterans around here openly tell new players "don't use knuckles, fighter is bad" "just buy a chainblade if you're an elf" and other fun-killing advice.
    The reality is that's FUN SAVING advice because they won't fall into the newbie trap of using bad skills and feeling like everyone else around them is magnitudes stronger still no matter how many years they sink into the skillset and getting their stats up then coming to the forums and demanding Elves be buffed or saying that "Humans are too weak".
    Cho wrote: »
    And I've definitely seen people using int magic in runs.
    As I said previously they're either intentionally crippling themselves out of desperation, hoping and praying that someday Devcat will listen and make mages in Mabinogi worth playing. I can relate to them, I spent years hoping for the same continuing to play my elf and using magic even after fighter, puppet, shooter, ninja. But when it's more effective to bash Merrow with a gathering knife than Firebolt or Thunder her you eventually have to stop deluding yourself and realize it's like playing competitive pokemon but you're taking a team of 6 level one magikarp with only splash into every battle while still expecting to win.

    Which is why I started working on my giant after reading about the Wind Breaker update that had come out on KR, after all the years of frustration and disappointment because I was so stubborn to use the skills I wanted to like, but were FORGOTTEN and PUNISHED by the developers, left to rot, and had become completely deprecated and objectively pointless to even use; I finally started to have fun with the game again. Bad game balance ruins fun, bad skills ruin fun and should be fixed.
    Cho wrote: »
    If you find mprot being too much of a problem, just use Hydra btw. That's what it's for.
    Yes I've mastered Hydra Transmutation on both my elf and giant, I am well aware it reduces monster magic protection by a measly 18, and infact I use it quite frequently in Revived Illusion advance after clustering the mobs into a corner so I can kill them ever so slightly faster with the 8 hits of Flame Burst my duration 15 reforged helmet gives me for minimal effort leveling. But I think what you're failing to understand is the majority of combat situations are not against stationary targets or groups that so easily run into a corner to hit 1s on a pet like Revived Illusion's first three orb rooms, and that Hydra does not move with you.
    Cho wrote: »
    There might be a technique or crusader skill for that idk.
    That would be nice but there is not.
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
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    Cho wrote: »
    Pretty sure suggesting someone might be crazy is more tame then assuming someone is braindead because they disagree.

    Owntrolf - I understand your table which is why I'm saying context is important. I agree Firebolt can beat Hailstorm in cases but disagree that a revamp is the solution. Mabinogi gives players so many options that could be considered sub-optimal but might have different reasons for use and I honestly believe Ice magic runs on an idea of mana costs and repeated hits which puts Hailstorm in a slightly different place than firebolt.

    Lutetium - I don't think you should call anyone out of touch when you're comparing NA Mabi to KR Mabi, that has been said to have way more popularity. You think all magic outside of Blaze and Lightning rod is objectively worthless? This is a big assumption on my part but I'm going to assume the reason you don't see people using all these types of magic is because the game has about 10+ different skill sets available to kill things with and chainslash is the newest one.

    You can still see new players running around with different types of weapons but on the other hand I've seen some of the veterans around here openly tell new players "don't use knuckles, fighter is bad" "just buy a chainblade if you're an elf" and other fun-killing advice. And I've definitely seen people using int magic in runs. If you find mprot being too much of a problem, just use Hydra btw. That's what it's for. Though it would be nice if there were other magic defense/prot shredding options. There might be a technique or crusader skill for that idk.

    Blissfulkill - I understand this but sort of disagree about it trivializing things. Was leveling up a low level 300 ish mage a while ago and traded over a CC firewand to clear some SMs and even with rF firebolt there's a significant damage increase. It can trivialize high HP mobs ,early on, when the game is encouraging and teaching you to use magic+counter and icebolt combos as a solution.

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.

    let me break it down for you because you don't get it. I called you braindead because you're wrong, not because I disagree. You did annoy me because you're acting like you're the smartest person in the room, while spreading false information. You don't understand endgame, you're not endgame, not even close and that's fine it's a game after all.

    Have you done any of the Tech elite missions? Have you run phantasm and solo'd rooms before? I'm not sure how to get it through to you that hailstorm is worthless, and it desperately needs a revamp. The only benefit it has over firebolt is having some AoE, while being unusable.

    And yes, things should be balanced around end game, what else do you balance it around? Every single game is balanced around endgame, or it suffers horrible consequences.

    Again, people disagreeing with you isn't a personal attack, and the fact that you think it is shows clearly how little you understand. Maybe you're not aware but you're incredibly condescending, and willfully ignorant.
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,050
    Posts: 174
    Member
    edited May 8
    Cho wrote: »

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.

    Nerfing firebolt does not give people incentive to use other magic skills. It makes them not use firebolt. (or just give up on magic as well)
    FOXAssassin
  • SurreptitiouslySurreptitiously
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,345
    Posts: 42
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    Finity wrote: »
    Nerfing firebolt does not give people incentive to use other magic skills. It makes them not use firebolt. (or just give up on magic as well)

    Hence why nerfing in general, especially when you view from devCAT's perspective, can be a very delicate task when you've normalized power creep and have ended up in a hellish point of maintaining your game when the focal point is the endgame community.
    Cho wrote: »
    Owntrolf - I understand your table which is why I'm saying context is important. I agree Firebolt can beat Hailstorm in cases but disagree that a revamp is the solution. Mabinogi gives players so many options that could be considered sub-optimal but might have different reasons for use and I honestly believe Ice magic runs on an idea of mana costs and repeated hits which puts Hailstorm in a slightly different place than firebolt.
    Repeated hits, sure. Mana cost, Ice spear would like to say "hello". Hailstorm is an Advanced Magic, or Staff Magic. Comparing it with Meteor and Lightningrod... is difficult. Because the other two are given quite clear ideas about what Staff magic is supposed to be, and how they might want to flesh it out if they were to do a rehaul. Hailstorm might be nice if it was retooled to not be a ice GFS, because that's just simply lazy. If Hailstorm was affected by vivace, didn't have the sixty year prep time, and had a larger splash range, it'd do quite good. Meteor, despite LR basically conking it in damage because why not, still has uses as its normal surgical strike. However you might as well just use Nova Obliteration for that since meteor can just...not crit. See: Magic being in the worst state its been in years.
    Cho wrote: »

    Lutetium - I don't think you should call anyone out of touch when you're comparing NA Mabi to KR Mabi, that has been said to have way more popularity. You think all magic outside of Blaze and Lightning rod is objectively worthless? This is a big assumption on my part but I'm going to assume the reason you don't see people using all these types of magic is because the game has about 10+ different skill sets available to kill things with and chainslash is the newest one.
    Yes outside of Blaze and LR, in the endgame content right now everything but LR and Blaze can do jack. Hell, hailstorm is ironic in tech because it can do better than firebolt. This is because when you get to severely high amounts of mdef now, Less is more, and hailstorm can certainly rack up the damage. Firebolt reaches a limit pretty quick and is more focused on hitting a lot.
    Cho wrote: »

    You can still see new players running around with different types of weapons but on the other hand I've seen some of the veterans around here openly tell new players "don't use knuckles, fighter is bad" "just buy a chainblade if you're an elf" and other fun-killing advice. And I've definitely seen people using int magic in runs. If you find mprot being too much of a problem, just use Hydra btw. That's what it's for. Though it would be nice if there were other magic defense/prot shredding options. There might be a technique or crusader skill for that idk.
    I'll agree that dumb opinions like that are just what they are - Dumb. You're going to get those opinions all the time.
    "Just use Hydra" is a poor solution. Its not a drop and done, affects a small zone unlike natural physical pierce which doesn't have such a restriction, and requires you to use an extra skillset for a minimal bonus in current endgame content, which you may not even notice.
    Cho wrote: »

    Blissfulkill - I understand this but sort of disagree about it trivializing things. Was leveling up a low level 300 ish mage a while ago and traded over a CC firewand to clear some SMs and even with rF firebolt there's a significant damage increase. It can trivialize high HP mobs ,early on, when the game is encouraging and teaching you to use magic+counter and icebolt combos as a solution.
    Early game doesn't last that long, and bolt-counter and the situations where icebolt/lightningbolt are good become few.
    Cho wrote: »

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.

    Again, wont disagree here. Magic doesn't need some flashy rehaul, it needs retooling. There is nothing really wrong designwise with the skills, especially not hailstorm. But flat out nerfing everything else, isn't a solution. Yes, MWM is a cancer and how it works with firebolt should really be redone, because the adverse affects that could simply just be done by removing magic weapon mastery and applying its bonuses straight to every other skill, adjusted of course to prevent +150% firebolt damage are far better than having an extra mastery on top of the elemental masteries, which could really use something to make it more exciting than just "xd one more bonus."

    But no. If you're trying to say that magic is in a good state right now, its not. It wasn't remotely in a good state during Phantasm being end content, because everything started to outpace it. It was still usable in several areas, but the issues became far more apparent. Thunder is still worthless across the board, Fireball is okay but its lack of any multiplier is horrid due to how much power creep constants have done now, and Ice spear is nice but its not going to see any further past blowing up the back of the reserve/mines. Yes, I've found a use for icebolt in 7N elite, this is because it and mirage missile can be used on clerics to slow them down. No, it doesn't mean that the entire tab is saved, and definitely doesn't mean that there isn't a very dire problem for it.

    Magic doesn't even have erg to save it. Staff erg is quite nice, but its not nearly as good as knux/cylinder/bars, and doesn't solve the glaring issues. I don't want a band-aid like the g23 weaps/erg, but magic doesn't even have that.
    FOXAssassin
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,295
    Posts: 127
    Member
    Finity wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »

    I brought up nerfing just as a suggestion. If you look at Arrow Revolver, it was nerfed when a cooldown was added to archery. Summon Golem was nerfed when r1 windmill was reduced to r6. They could always nerf firebolt or turn a portion of it's damage to a burn DOT which would incentivize people to use other magic skills. Preferably they could add other functions to Hailstorm like making it usable with spellwalk or fixing it so it works with vivace but these are much better solutions than to just revamp it so it becomes "A spammable magic aoe, like giant fullswing where we just make a gust of snow/blizzard/hail !?!??!" like OP said.

    Nerfing firebolt does not give people incentive to use other magic skills. It makes them not use firebolt. (or just give up on magic as well)

    People prioritize magnum and crash shot now over AR. Players aren't gravitating towards golems anymore because they stopped being broken. Hypothetically how would nerfing firebolt make someone give up on the magic talent as a whole?