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Physical/Melee damage is too favored in this game

OwntrolfOwntrolf
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edited October 28, 2019 in General Chat
Damage Reduction from Standers
Heavy Stander always reduces damage only reduces damage on activation (correction by Lutetium
Natural Shield always reduces damage
Mana Deflector always reduces damage


Battlefield Overture and Bonechip/Powerpot hardly works on any magic damage skill except firebolt at a severely diminished boost(40% overture would be less than 20% more on firebolt)

There is no equivalent of bonechip for magic damage.


Def/Prot vs MDef/Mprot Reduction
There are few skills/pets that actually reduces mdef/mprot compared to physical

-Hydra
-Ceraunus
-Fantastic Chorus(Citation needed)

vs

-Bone Dragon
-Mir Dragon
-Uppercut
-Smash(Axe)
-Brionac(we lost this when they split Protection into Protection and Magic Protection)
-Piercing


Int to MA Scaling Change(Magic Update)
With the magic update back when 25INT = 1MA became 5INT = 1MA
there was never any update to make those enchants fall in line with the new formula which is why a majority of the older MA enchants became such a huge joke which is a majority of them because Nexon refuses to either buff or release newer enchants to fall in line with the new system.
There is still no MA suffix for clothes or any easily obtainable MA enchants for accessories, the only thing close is Awakened Successor which is still fairly hard to get since they only drop from Alban Hard/Heroic and are rank 7 enchants unlike being able to just use Oblivion WildBoar accessories for +maxdamg

A huge example of this is Mana Hammer(Rank3) 3-5 Magic attack.
This enchant is such a joke in it's current state, it went from being worth 75-125INT to a measly 15-25INT and thats a rank 3 enchant.

For a skill like FireBolt which scales
0.35-0.5MA (0.35minimum and 0.5max for 1MA)
0.2-0.4damgenchant(0.2min for 1minenchant, 0.4max for 1maxenchant)

3-5 MA would grant 1.5-2.5 more max damage on FireBolt
to get an equal amount of max on FireBolt with maxdamg enchants would only be
2.5/0.4 = 6.25max damg enchant.

Literally any common damg enchant would do better for making FireBolt hit harder.


Alchemy HP/MP/SP Scaling Change(Alchemy Update)
A similar issue to this presents itself with alchemy when they added the current HP/MP/SP scaling damage
for example WaterCannon or FlameBurst

WaterCannon
dfdb2f2b44.png

FlameBurst
77327eac9e.png

Assuming a player with 2.5k HP/MP/SP
they will gain about

750 worth of base damage on WaterCannon
200 worth of base damage on FlameBurst

Alchemy enchants typically only add 1 damg per point which is outscaled by the damage you gain from having high current HP/MP/SP

This is heavily relevant for WaterCannon such as using
28911c0b54.png
instead of
de98b3f774.png
because the damage gain is much higher
50MP = 15 damage on water cannon vs +9 Water Alchemy Damg


Dan Ranks
Dan ranks for both Magic and Alchemy are generally pay 60% or more MP/SP for less than 3% more damage after factoring in your stats.

For example
FireBolt
60-120 -> 66-126 base damage (6min/max gain)
5 -> 8 Mana Cost (60% more mana usage)
Calculating the max gain's value in MA
6/0.5 = 12MA
Dan3 FireBolt gives you 12MA worth of damage for 60% more mana

WaterCannon
119-136 -> 152-175 Base Damage(33min/39max gain)
5 -> 8 Stamina Cost (60% more stamina usage)
Calculating the max gain's value in MP
39/0.3 = 130MP
Dan3 WaterCannon gives you 130MP worth of damage for 60% more stamina

The more stats you have, there will be greatly diminished returns from getting dan ranks due to your stats overshadowing the gains from dan ranks which is unlike how all the physical class dans work such as Smash

Smash
500% -> 620% (120% damage gain or 24% more from 500%)
10 -> 13 Stamina Cost (30% more stamina usage)

Magnum Shot
500% -> 560% (60% damage gain or 12% more from 500%)
10 -> 10 Stamina Cost (no change)

All the physical damage skills scale very well with dan even as your stats grow not to mention being able to take advantage of the crazy multiplicative nature of stacking BFO/Bonechip/Fateweaver.



EDIT
I forgot to add, Meteor Strike is the biggest joke of a skill with 15 minutes as a cooldown for a little less damage than Lightning Rod once you have about 620 Magic Attack.

It would have to do way more damage for that kind of a crazy cooldown.
Imagine having a skill with 15 minute cooldown doing less damage than a 15 sec cooldown skill.
The difference in cooldown is literally 60x.
LutetiumSherri
  1. Did Nexon forget about Magic Damage22 votes
    1. Yes
       64% (14 votes)
    2. No
       36% (8 votes)

Comments

  • GretaGreta
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    Is this supposed to be suggestion or...?
  • MaiaMaia
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,955
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    edited October 26, 2019
    Elves can use hide. Giants can't use play dead. Elves>Humans>Giants favorism in mabinogi confirmed. Elves have better stats for magic. Giants have worst stats for magic. Magic favorism confirmed? Mage elf meta. Hmm.

    But really, lotta complain posts lately.
    DraechWolfsingerpawcalypse
  • GretaGreta
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    Maia wrote: »
    But really, lotta complain posts lately.

    This is spooky Halloween setup.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    Maia wrote: »
    Elves can use hide. Giants can't use play dead. Elves>Humans>Giants favorism in mabinogi confirmed. Elves have better stats for magic. Giants have worst stats for magic. Magic favorism confirmed? Mage elf meta. Hmm.

    But really, lotta complain posts lately.

    Seriously. What the BLEEP is going on? Suddenly there is an influx of people ACTUALLY using the forums? XD
    WolfsingerKensamaofmaripawcalypse
  • BobbioBobbio
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    i mean magic is going to be so much stronger with this ego update incoming where you can basically double cast spells with an ego wand ( or staff? i actually think it was a staff that the video used ) so wait a couple months until the ego update cause magic is going to be much stronger with that update.
  • SherriSherri
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    edited October 26, 2019
    Maia wrote: »
    Elves can use hide. Giants can't use play dead. Elves>Humans>Giants favorism in mabinogi confirmed. Elves have better stats for magic. Giants have worst stats for magic. Magic favorism confirmed? Mage elf meta. Hmm.

    But really, lotta complain posts lately.

    That's why they (giants) got updated recently. Twice.
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    edited October 26, 2019
    This is actually a legitimate skill balancing issue not "another complain post", though there are a few corrections needed.
    Heavy Stander does have constant damage reduction, as well as it's additional halving of damage on activation.

    Bone chip/atk pot and Overture infact do not work on any magic directly, including Firebolt, the additional damage you do see using Firebolt with one or both active is only applied to the bonus damage from the spell's max damage enchant coefficient mentioned further down OP's post. These coefficients only exist for bolt and intermediate magic however, so chip/atk pot and overture will never have any effect on advance magic, shockwave, or blaze.

    The Magic Damage stat was previously 20 int per 1% before the Merlin update not 25, but rather than adding a fixed amount of min/max damage to spells it like the new Magic Attack stat with it's int/5 scaling Magic Damage functioned as a multiplier to spell base damages, which were reduced in g13 when the elemental masteries were added but the result was a net gain after ranking those skills as they were a second multiplier to the fixed spell base damage. When the Merlin patch did hit though titles that gave magic attack as well as upgrades were multiplied by 4 to match the new int to Magic Attack scaling, but enchants that gave magic attack were forgotten and have been left forgotten and effectively worthless outside of the new Arcane and Foretold enchants for staves which still lag behind the total damage adds of comparable enchants for physical damage weapons.

    Now as for my personal commentary on this subject.
    I feel Alchemy's scaling is in a good state, massive prot vs mprot imbalances aside for the moment, although I'm speaking from a late game perspective of a character with 3200 hp 2500 mp and 2700 sp with no gear or enchant boosts that's still 9k total off maxing the boosts from Shine of Eweca, I believe it's worth considering though that alchemy scaling caps at 2500 so enchanting magical on all of my alchemy gear at this point will net me 0 additional damage to Water Cannon, despite comparatively superior scaling below the mp scaling cap.
    It should also be considered that Alchemy damage enchants scale with charges, and some of the on-Cylinder enchants have quite high potential bonuses along with being able to be doubled up when equipping a Guard Cylinder with the same enchants; For example Moist + Wave on both a Tidalwave Cylinder (the same 30% cylinder efficiency for water alchemy as a Celtic Tetra, Revenant Insight, or Perseus Tyrannus Cylinder) and Guard Cylinder with max roll give an additional 70 water alchemy damage, this proceeds to stack 5 times on a full charge, get a 1.2* bonus when used at close range, a separate 1.3* bonus from the Tidalwave's Cylinder efficiency, and in ideal use case a further 1.2* after that from r1 Rain Casting for a total damage add of 1310.4 without involving reforges, to get the same damage bonus for a giant's dan 3 smash would require 151.6~ max from enchants on your 2 handed sword + shield, or 63~ if you have a 40% overture and bone chip active (accounting for overture's bonus being boosted by 1.2* with chip active) which amounts to a Demi Lich+Minimum roll Girgashey on the sword and Oblivion+max roll Wild Boar on the shield, overall slightly harder to obtain but easier to enchant compared to two Moist+Wave on Cyl+Guard. However you'll need quite a decent set of bard enchants and likely reforges to reach the 40% overture that equalizes these enchant boosts on the sword+shield to the point of the alchemy enchant boosts to Water Cannon.
    If we start throwing reforges (one each in this case, 20 level assumed, although I think it's fair to consider as both can be obtained without real cash investment on Echostones.) for Rain Cast Water Cannon damage (+100% damage added to the basic +20%), Smash damage (+200% added to Smash's base multiplier which will be boosted 1.2* using a 2 handed sword), and set effects for Water Cannon enhancement (1.15* multiplier to WC) and Smash enhancement (the same 1.15* but to Smash's multiplier) in here now that 70 water alchemy damage has turned into a 2762.7 damage add, which Smash (again Giant dan 3 in this case) would need 217.6~ max from enchants in the same slots to compare or a not quite possible 90.5 after bone chip+40% overture, and I'm taking the best case for Smash here, being used by a Giant with a shield and 2 handed sword for extra base multiplier and enchant slots over a Human or Elf.

    All of that gets completely thrown out the window though when we look at the root cause of the physical/magical damage imbalance; Magic Protection.
    In early game content it isn't quite as noticeable since even up to hardmode shadow missions most things only have 10~20% damage reduction from protection, around 5~13 points, easy to work around with Cerenus summon and Hydra, though admittedly dependent on a temporary cash shop item with a 45 USD cost to be ensured to obtain and a skill with a relatively small radius which remains stationary and requires monsters take a damage tick from it before the debuff is applied that also has a 60 second cooldown. Most of that content you'll be able to do enough damage that the reduction isnt really an issue though, but once you're getting up to content like advance hardmode dungeons it starts to become more noticeable that physical damage is pulling ahead, particularly with all of the new bows and swords coming with piercing levels, and all of the free Bone Dragons we're given from events and their comparatively lower cash shop price of 9~12 USD although still a temporary item not always available for players to purchase. Once we start getting into later game content like avalon purification and tech duinn adv missions, Magic has become completely impotent due to magic protection, even when applying Hydra and Cerenus, while on the physical damage side you're definitely running a piercing sword and or bow at this point or using high multiplier slow animation skillsets like Chain that were designed to work around protection in this content tier, Alchemy fares a little better than magic if you've invest into an Erg 50 Cylinder, Rain Cast Water Cannon Damage reforge and Flame Burst duration reforge, but that's pretty extreme compared to the investment to be effective in this content with physical damage.

    As for a specific example to highlight the problem that is Magic Protection, let's take Tagar from the Purify Avalon's Altar mission. Tagar has 180 Protection and Magic Protection, this results in an 80% damage reduction to any attack you use on her, you can reduce this by 37 on the physical side by hitting her with a Bone Dragon, Mir Dragon, Spinning Uppercut, and Smokescreen, bringing her down to 143 protection or 73% damage reduction. Comparatively if you can get her to stay on one place long enough for Hydra to tick and hit her with a Cerenus summon you can bring her magic protection down 28 points to 152 or 75% damage reduction. It almost sounds fair at that point, albeit a tad slanted towards physical damage, but we haven't accounted for Piercing yet, on the lower end with a Bhafel Slayer greatsword or Bhafel Hunter longbow that takes off another 10 protection from their upgraded 2 piercing levels, which gets us to 71% damage reduction. On the higher end though since this is late game content you could be running a 3 pierce meteoroid enchant on that Bhafel Slayer, or a Novel Divine Crossbow which bring the protection down to 118 and 113 or 68% and 67% damage reduction respectively, quite an advantage over what you can obtain with magic type damage sources and applies to things other than Tagar specifically. Lets get into the meat of the imbalance though when it comes to any boss type monster like Tagar, Feth's rings, Balor, and so on.

    Brionac, when shocked will reduce the protection of certain monsters (mostly bosses as mentioned, but also of note the water spirits in abyssal lord tech duinn mission) by 3 per hit, this means 60 quick love taps on Tagar with vivace buff on makes her have a whopping ZERO physical protection and take full damage from any physical attack regardless of other debuffs or piercing levels. Before the Merlin patch that introduced the split Protection and Magic Protection stats this damage reduction ~reduction~ from Brionac would apply to all damage types allowing Magic and Alchemy to be at least able to compete with Melee and Ranged damage skills, but now Physical damage is working at full force and Magic type damage is at a 75% disadvantage, more in cases aside from Tagar.

    But this is the NA forums where trying to discuss imbalances is pointless and will never be seen by the developers who have the power to fix it and only by players who have little to no knowledge on the games mechanics and who will only contribute snide remakes comparing any attempts at discussing game balance to someone complaining to be compensated for a few extra hours of downtime on a free videogame as they idle in Dunbarton or Belvast with the game minimized, ignoring anything that may improve the game and make it more enjoyable for those who don't want to hit things with a big axe like Todd Howard.

    EDITED IN BONUS: Some posts came in while I was writing this but to keep it short and sweet, Ego revamp does not make up for 75% extra damage reduction to magic type damage sadly even if it gets significantly faster for lower tier content.
    SherriOwntrolfRadiant DawnKitiniChaosShadow
  • MegasoulMegasoul
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    tldr: magic and melee would be on fair and equal terms in Magic Piercing existed in the same capacity as Melee/Archery Piercing. There are some workarounds (according to Korea the incredibly hard to get piercing robe affects all damage) but realistically late game content makes magic difficult to use outside of support (sand burst/shock/flame burst/icebolt etc.).

    As an aside, alchemy enchants would be stronger if there were more of them, since they function regardless of "current" stats. Someone using mana shield would deal a lot less damage with water cannon if all of their enchants were mana-related instead of water. But you do make a strong point, with the enchants as they are stat resources > alchemy depending on the circumstances.
  • XCalibieXCalibie
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    Magic has more issues than just damage and damage reduction, but that's a different story eh?
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Megasoul wrote: »
    tldr: magic and melee would be on fair and equal terms in Magic Piercing existed in the same capacity as Melee/Archery Piercing. There are some workarounds (according to Korea the incredibly hard to get piercing robe affects all damage) but realistically late game content makes magic difficult to use outside of support (sand burst/shock/flame burst/icebolt etc.).
    This is true, piercing does actually affect magic damage (reduce mprot) but no magic or alchemy weapons have piercing so the robe is effectively the only way to see this, you can see it using bolt magic or on a giant alchemy out of a guard cylinder with a lance in your main hand but it's an ineffective solution due to the inability to use int/adv magic and the 10% damage reduction and no access to erg boosts for alchemy.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Crims wrote: »
    Maia wrote: »
    Elves can use hide. Giants can't use play dead. Elves>Humans>Giants favorism in mabinogi confirmed. Elves have better stats for magic. Giants have worst stats for magic. Magic favorism confirmed? Mage elf meta. Hmm.

    But really, lotta complain posts lately.

    Seriously. What the BLEEP is going on? Suddenly there is an influx of people ACTUALLY using the forums? XD

    Because
    http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/21451/hey-so-this-is-the-most-important-month-of-a-year
  • GretaGreta
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    Crims wrote: »
    Maia wrote: »
    Elves can use hide. Giants can't use play dead. Elves>Humans>Giants favorism in mabinogi confirmed. Elves have better stats for magic. Giants have worst stats for magic. Magic favorism confirmed? Mage elf meta. Hmm.

    But really, lotta complain posts lately.

    Seriously. What the BLEEP is going on? Suddenly there is an influx of people ACTUALLY using the forums? XD

    Because
    http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/21451/hey-so-this-is-the-most-important-month-of-a-year

    I guess Halloween inflicts complaining and hating to some people? Spooky.
    Kensamaofmari
  • AlshianAlshian
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    Welp, with the revamp for ego id use for staves, along with (somehow) get erg 50 would make magic insanely good, may not be the best in damage but eh CC is just AMAZING.

    Although so far I notice smash is the only skill (I think) was favored the most to not have a passive skill resistance on any MOB, which tempt me to start over on a giant and just build a smash monster.
  • TheNyanCatTheNyanCat
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    I remember someone mentioning the reason why magic is so weak and had so many weird systems in the past purely to obstruct magic users was because someone on the dev team hated magic with a passion, unsure if it's actually true but it sure does feel like it.

    In my (non expert opinion) I feel like the reason magic doesn't perform as well as other talents is because they don't get as many fancy moves. In fact the majority of magic skills aren't used at all, the ones you see the most in general use are firebolt, lightning rod and sometimes ice spear. The rest are really niche and mostly leveled just for the stats. While they can be hard hitting these moves are competing skills like with final hit, bash or hell the entirety of the chain blade talent. Chain blades in particular are a bit overloaded especially and just overshadow a lot of talents in terms of, well everything combat. I believe magic just needs an ace up their sleeve that gives people a real reason to pick it over say final hit spamming and playing with another weapon for the 30 second down time.

    I would personally give magic a toggle similar to spell walk or a skill that functions like final hit that dramatically decreases cast time at the cost of mana efficiency, allowing a mage to possibly combine it with spell walk and run around blasting everything like a human with final hit would. I would also fiddle around with the boost you get from Dan ranks cause what were they thinking?
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
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    TheNyanCat wrote: »
    I remember someone mentioning the reason why magic is so weak and had so many weird systems in the past purely to obstruct magic users was because someone on the dev team hated magic with a passion, unsure if it's actually true but it sure does feel like it.

    In my (non expert opinion) I feel like the reason magic doesn't perform as well as other talents is because they don't get as many fancy moves. In fact the majority of magic skills aren't used at all, the ones you see the most in general use are firebolt, lightning rod and sometimes ice spear. The rest are really niche and mostly leveled just for the stats. While they can be hard hitting these moves are competing skills like with final hit, bash or hell the entirety of the chain blade talent. Chain blades in particular are a bit overloaded especially and just overshadow a lot of talents in terms of, well everything combat. I believe magic just needs an ace up their sleeve that gives people a real reason to pick it over say final hit spamming and playing with another weapon for the 30 second down time.

    I would personally give magic a toggle similar to spell walk or a skill that functions like final hit that dramatically decreases cast time at the cost of mana efficiency, allowing a mage to possibly combine it with spell walk and run around blasting everything like a human with final hit would. I would also fiddle around with the boost you get from Dan ranks cause what were they thinking?

    Even if they had a skill to increase their magic damage at the cost of more mana, everyone would drop mana increasing dans(bolts) except lightning rod because theyre a waste of mana(especially bolts) when you gain way more damage from using the skill but it doesnt do anything about the massive amounts of mprot that exists or the huge damage.

    One of the problems I would definitely say is BFO being a broken skill that only applies fully on physical damage, magic damage has little to no benefit from this
  • TheNyanCatTheNyanCat
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    Owntrolf wrote: »

    Even if they had a skill to increase their magic damage at the cost of more mana, everyone would drop mana increasing dans(bolts) except lightning rod because theyre a waste of mana(especially bolts) when you gain way more damage from using the skill but it doesnt do anything about the massive amounts of mprot that exists or the huge damage.

    One of the problems I would definitely say is BFO being a broken skill that only applies fully on physical damage, magic damage has little to no benefit from this

    Just a fun idea I was tossing around.

    Magic really just doesn't feel loved in this game. Hopefully at some point they revamp magic again cause unlike archery which is pretty meta in Korea last time I heard, magic doesn't have the same reputation. So it's possible for them to consider it I suppose?