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End-Game Damage Questions

DerringerDerringer
Mabinogi Rep: 200
Posts: 13
Member
in General Chat
I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, and unfortunately all of the advice out there focuses on newbies and early-game, so there's something I'm missing.

I've watched YouTube videos and joined raids so I've seen high-level player damage numbers. I know most late-game players deal in the range of 5000-7000 damage per hit in veteran dungeons with the occasional 30-35k crit, and some players get up to 80k crits with certain skills. Meanwhile in a veteran dungeon I hit in the 1000-2000 damage range and crit for 5000. I can't figure out how to overcome this damage hurdle.

When I've tried Googling this, reading the forums, reading Reddit posts, watching YouTube videos, and asking in-game I always get one of three answers:

- Rank up your skills (I'm already rank 1 or dan in all relevant combat skills, masteries, and unrelated skills which grant the appropriate stat buff)
- Improve your stats (I have over 1000 in every stat except luck)
- Enchant your gear (I have a handful of enchants but could admittedly improve in this regard, but I can show the math that this isn't my issue)

Here's an example damage calculation for Smash:

- Start with a fully upgraded r6 Dustin Silver Knight Sword: 34-100 damage. With 80% balance from 1000+ DEX, I average 86.8 damage
- I have 974 STR. At one max damage every 2.5 STR and one min damage every 3 STR, that adds 324.67 - 389.6
- My enchants currently grant +18 max damage
- I have a +13 max damage totem
- Rank 1 Sword Mastery adds 10 - 20 damage
- Rank 1 Combat Mastery adds 14 - 24 damage
- Using "The Guardian of the Gate" title and "Professor J" second title gives +10 and +20 max damage, respectively
- So far that totals 382.67 - 594.6
- I'm currently doing the Grandmaster quests, so I can't add in the +30 damage for Grandmaster, but 30 isn't much compared to my current
- With 80% balance, that's a net average damage of 552
- Now I use Dan 2 Smash. This skill has a 580% multiplier, plus another 1.2x multiplier for using a Two-Handed weapon
- 552 * 5.8 * 1.2 = 3842 damage per hit
- 30% of the time I get a critical hit for +150% + 42% (r6) damage
- 4085 * 2.92 = 11219 critical hit
- I assume veteran dungeon monsters (e.g. Rabbie skeletons) possess something like 200 defense and 50 protection, because in practice I see half these numbers

I then hop over to YouTube and watch someone perform a Smash, get a critical hit, and deal 37000 damage! Even if I added 100 damage with enchants (which would cost several hundred mil) I'd only add 700 damage after multipliers (2100 on crits) -- this doesn't nearly explain the 30000 gap in damage between myself and high levels.

So what am I missing? There must be some multipliers I'm not taking advantage of. Some trick to double your damage that no one seems to discuss on the forums since they're overly concerned with advising newbies to rank their skills and buy enchants.

I assume some of the difference in damage comes from defense shearing (Bone Dragon, Scooter Imp, Piercing, etc) but if I could remove 100% of the enemy's defense and protection I'd STILL be doing only 1/3rd of the damage I see people do online.

I also assume some of the difference comes from buffs. Battlefield Overture can add 30% or so, Death Mark adds another 20% or so, but I don't know which other skills I should be looking into?

I also think Techniques may have something to do with it. I haven't done G22 yet (I spend a lot of time grinding skills and playing with friends instead of focusing the story) so I don't know what powers these offer yet.

But 30% here or 20% there doesn't add up to the 200-400% bonus damage I need to keep pace with end-game. There's SOMETHING I'm missing.

Comments

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited January 6
    Basically, reforges. Veteran mobs are still the same mobs but with more health, so elemental reforges minces them.

    And yes, techniques are extremely powerful, with reaper granting 200% more damage for a 3x multiplier.
    Derringer
  • DerringerDerringer
    Mabinogi Rep: 200
    Posts: 13
    Member
    Basically, reforges. Veteran mobs are still the same mobs but with more health, so elemental reforges minces them.

    And yes, techniques are extremely powerful, with reaper granting 200% more damage for a 3x multiplier.

    I haven't gotten too heavy into reforges (they're extremely expensive and until I know I want to invest in them, I haven't spent too much) but most of them seem more like utility things than damage: Final Hit duration, Ice Spear explosion radius, Act 6: Crisis radius... So what exactly are "elemental" reforges, and how do they increase damage? What kind of multipliers should I expect from them?
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited January 6
    Derringer wrote: »
    Basically, reforges. Veteran mobs are still the same mobs but with more health, so elemental reforges minces them.

    And yes, techniques are extremely powerful, with reaper granting 200% more damage for a 3x multiplier.

    I haven't gotten too heavy into reforges (they're extremely expensive and until I know I want to invest in them, I haven't spent too much) but most of them seem more like utility things than damage: Final Hit duration, Ice Spear explosion radius, Act 6: Crisis radius... So what exactly are "elemental" reforges, and how do they increase damage? What kind of multipliers should I expect from them?

    They’re essentially just reforges that multiply the damage dealt to enemies not of it’s matching element (Fire elemental reforges to non fire elemental type enemies) or neutral enemies, with no penalty or increase towards fire type enemies.

    Which then means you can have multiple elements on the same weapon (Fire and Ice) which stack, so yeah, but most enemies are neutral.

    Many newer enemies have innate defenses against these elemental reforges because of how ridiculous the damage gets.

    And I assume you mean both you and him are using smash, correct?

    Death Mark increases it for chains only, while support shot does it for melee in general (?).
  • RetaliaRetalia
    Mabinogi Rep: 615
    Posts: 6
    Member
    BFO is a big part of it, as a kitted out BFO can add >40% more damage.

    Weapon power potions or bone chips will also add another 20%.

    For smash, reforges can add ~200% to the multiplier. Smash Enhancement gear (thames, broken horn) will add even more multipler.

    Additionally, some people have smash combo cards which will add up to 85% more smash damage.
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,650
    Posts: 1,211
    Member
    Combo Cards is pay to win >:3

    Free to make yes, but had to pay up to maintain it or find some extension from players.
  • NilremNilrem
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,875
    Posts: 465
    Member
    Alright, since this answer isn't looked at very often, I guess I'll chip in.
    Here is Nil's quick reference boot camp for how to get proper damage before taking reforges into account.

    First step: Check this Wiki Page for your checklist on any damage stat you need to max out. If you care about your damage at all, clear as much as possible. Don't ignore anything.

    Second Step: Your total level can be taken into account, raise it to a decent amount for Eweca boost to be usable. While you do not need total 40k, total 20k is where results start to be favorable. Use the time until you reach this point training up as many skills on that previous list as possible.

    Third Step: So you got everything trained and are above total 20k? It is time for you to prepare resources for a final rebirth.
    This involves rebirthing to a certain combination of Age and Talent and reaching level 200 and Exploration level 50 before the Age changes off what you need. You can prepare Exp Fruit and Exploration Relic chests in advance if needed.

    For quick reference on common stat optimizations:
    Humans can use any age and rebirth close combat or lance for their highest Strength growth. The easiest.
    Giants must rebirth to Age 10-12 and go close combat or lance. Slightly higher Strength growth than humans.
    Elves must rebirth to Age 10-12 and go Archery for their highest Dex growth. If chain, go merchant instead for optimal luck.

    If you in all actuality trained everything in step 1 and leveled up all the way, congrats you broke the soft cap and might have even hit the hard cap on whatever damage stat you need.

    All before even considering reforges or even Echostones. (And the rest of your gear honestly)
    Have fun with your now higher numbers.

    Invest in Battlefield Overture and some bone chips and watch things explode.
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,390
    Posts: 75
    Member
    Derringer wrote: »
    I've been trying to figure this out for a while now, and unfortunately all of the advice out there focuses on newbies and early-game, so there's something I'm missing.

    I've watched YouTube videos and joined raids so I've seen high-level player damage numbers. I know most late-game players deal in the range of 5000-7000 damage per hit in veteran dungeons with the occasional 30-35k crit, and some players get up to 80k crits with certain skills. Meanwhile in a veteran dungeon I hit in the 1000-2000 damage range and crit for 5000. I can't figure out how to overcome this damage hurdle.

    When I've tried Googling this, reading the forums, reading Reddit posts, watching YouTube videos, and asking in-game I always get one of three answers:

    - Rank up your skills (I'm already rank 1 or dan in all relevant combat skills, masteries, and unrelated skills which grant the appropriate stat buff)
    - Improve your stats (I have over 1000 in every stat except luck)
    - Enchant your gear (I have a handful of enchants but could admittedly improve in this regard, but I can show the math that this isn't my issue)

    Here's an example damage calculation for Smash:

    - Start with a fully upgraded r6 Dustin Silver Knight Sword: 34-100 damage. With 80% balance from 1000+ DEX, I average 86.8 damage
    - I have 974 STR. At one max damage every 2.5 STR and one min damage every 3 STR, that adds 324.67 - 389.6
    - My enchants currently grant +18 max damage
    - I have a +13 max damage totem
    - Rank 1 Sword Mastery adds 10 - 20 damage
    - Rank 1 Combat Mastery adds 14 - 24 damage
    - Using "The Guardian of the Gate" title and "Professor J" second title gives +10 and +20 max damage, respectively
    - So far that totals 382.67 - 594.6
    - I'm currently doing the Grandmaster quests, so I can't add in the +30 damage for Grandmaster, but 30 isn't much compared to my current
    - With 80% balance, that's a net average damage of 552
    - Now I use Dan 2 Smash. This skill has a 580% multiplier, plus another 1.2x multiplier for using a Two-Handed weapon
    - 552 * 5.8 * 1.2 = 3842 damage per hit
    - 30% of the time I get a critical hit for +150% + 42% (r6) damage
    - 4085 * 2.92 = 11219 critical hit
    - I assume veteran dungeon monsters (e.g. Rabbie skeletons) possess something like 200 defense and 50 protection, because in practice I see half these numbers

    I then hop over to YouTube and watch someone perform a Smash, get a critical hit, and deal 37000 damage! Even if I added 100 damage with enchants (which would cost several hundred mil) I'd only add 700 damage after multipliers (2100 on crits) -- this doesn't nearly explain the 30000 gap in damage between myself and high levels.

    So what am I missing? There must be some multipliers I'm not taking advantage of. Some trick to double your damage that no one seems to discuss on the forums since they're overly concerned with advising newbies to rank their skills and buy enchants.

    I assume some of the difference in damage comes from defense shearing (Bone Dragon, Scooter Imp, Piercing, etc) but if I could remove 100% of the enemy's defense and protection I'd STILL be doing only 1/3rd of the damage I see people do online.

    I also assume some of the difference comes from buffs. Battlefield Overture can add 30% or so, Death Mark adds another 20% or so, but I don't know which other skills I should be looking into?

    I also think Techniques may have something to do with it. I haven't done G22 yet (I spend a lot of time grinding skills and playing with friends instead of focusing the story) so I don't know what powers these offer yet.

    But 30% here or 20% there doesn't add up to the 200-400% bonus damage I need to keep pace with end-game. There's SOMETHING I'm missing.

    So I'll give you a touch of advise, without the sarcasm because you seem to honestly care... The thing about it only being reforges is false, a huge part of it is your stats. A few quick things

    At endgame humans have around 1900 str, so right off the bat you're missing almost 500max damage from that, yvonna renown increases crit damage, you're also missing a ton of armor penetration from low dex which also adds a lot, missing step 7 on weapons which doesn't add the most but it's still part of the gap. You also have pretty weak enchants, and a low roll totem. The thing with getting those insane numbers is you need all the little bonuses here and there, they really add up since this game loves multipliers
    NilremChaosShadow
  • ZarricZarric
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 79
    Member
    edited January 6
    Normal humans over 40k total will have about 1750 strength at the end game with the help of Shine of Eweca + high current level, before echostones. A red echostone can max out at +130 str, so the absolute max is 1880 currently for humans but you're more likely to have around 100ish str on average from the echostone.

    Elemental reforges do not work in Veteran dungeons however (Which I'm actually happy about), since that was mentioned earlier. Other reforges like max damage/skill specific things can help in clearing the dungeons though but it'll still rely on having good gears on top of it.
    Veteran dungeons aren't a cake walk however, since it does require a good deal of things if one wants to clear it.

    To give you an ideal, here's a few things.
    My character window with what I'd be equipped with, using Divine link and having my Doll Bag out. I'm dual wielding my CRK swords, one of them is a level 100 spirit weapon but I don't gain max damage from having one. Bash sees a significant increase though.
    50d5bee2df.png

    Now this is what I have using my Battlefield Overture, which is 48.18% normal playing.
    320b7c5351.png

    And this is with a bone chip / weapon power potion active:
    9c533a51d4.png

    Keep in mind I have every skill possible for a human fully maxed out. Dan 3 or rank 1 and mastered (if applicable), or else capped if it can't be rank 1. I have all 20 talents at Grandmaster status, and everything else such as totems, homestead figures, renown, etc are helping as well.
  • DerringerDerringer
    Mabinogi Rep: 200
    Posts: 13
    Member
    And I assume you mean both you and him are using smash, correct?
    Assuming by "him" you mean the people I've seen on YouTube doing 30k+ damage, yes. I've seen many high levels do 30k+ with Smash but I do 5k-7k against harder enemies and cap out around 11k-13k against weaker enemies with no defense / protection
    Death Mark increases it for chains only, while support shot does it for melee in general (?).
    Death Mark increases damage from all sources against a single target. Chain Burst increases the damage of chain skills
    Retalia wrote: »
    For smash, reforges can add ~200% to the multiplier. Smash Enhancement gear (thames, broken horn) will add even more multipler.
    200%? That's ridiculous! I thought reforges mostly added a flat damage boost. If I could add 200% to my damage that would account for basically all of the discrepancy between my damage and higher levels
    Retalia wrote: »
    Additionally, some people have smash combo cards which will add up to 85% more smash damage.
    Unless they do another Combo Card event, I don't foresee myself finding a useful one any time soon

    Nilrem wrote: »
    Alright, since this answer isn't looked at very often, I guess I'll chip in.
    Here is Nil's quick reference boot camp for how to get proper damage before taking reforges into account.
    Awesome! Thank you for the long post!
    Nilrem wrote: »
    First step: Check this Wiki Page for your checklist on any damage stat you need to max out. If you care about your damage at all, clear as much as possible. Don't ignore anything.
    Important and good advice. Also, I've done this.
    Nilrem wrote: »
    Second Step: Your total level can be taken into account, raise it to a decent amount for Eweca boost to be usable. While you do not need total 40k, total 20k is where results start to be favorable. Use the time until you reach this point training up as many skills on that previous list as possible.
    Eweca boost? What's Eweca boost? I'm not at 20k yet -- I actually have FAR more r1 skills than my level would suggest because I mostly only play during 2x and 3x AP events and always try to max my level and exploration level before rebirthing. I'm level 7000 but have over 1000 in nearly every stat (except luck, obviously)
    Nilrem wrote: »
    Third Step: So you got everything trained and are above total 20k? It is time for you to prepare resources for a final rebirth.
    This involves rebirthing to a certain combination of Age and Talent and reaching level 200 and Exploration level 50 before the Age changes off what you need. You can prepare Exp Fruit and Exploration Relic chests in advance if needed.
    I'm aware that gaining all of your levels with the right talent / age combination can improve your stats slightly, but I haven't personally reached this stage yet
    Nilrem wrote: »
    Invest in Battlefield Overture and some bone chips and watch things explode.
    I had r1 Playing Instrument back in g3 (before magical music existed) since I just liked playing songs in dungeons :) When bard skills came out I got all of them to rank 1 within the week. As for bone chips, I get them from time to time but 99% of summoning my bone dragon is a quick summon+unsummon combo for the AoE stun, so he doesn't have time to die

    In general great advice for starting players, but I was looking for where to go after these steps -- what to actually do with gear to go from raw stats + skills damage (which caps around 10k) to stats + skills + equipment damage (which seems to reach 30 - 80k)

    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    So I'll give you a touch of advise, without the sarcasm because you seem to honestly care... The thing about it only being reforges is false, a huge part of it is your stats. A few quick things

    At endgame humans have around 1900 str, so right off the bat you're missing almost 500max damage from that, yvonna renown increases crit damage, you're also missing a ton of armor penetration from low dex which also adds a lot, missing step 7 on weapons which doesn't add the most but it's still part of the gap. You also have pretty weak enchants, and a low roll totem. The thing with getting those insane numbers is you need all the little bonuses here and there, they really add up since this game loves multipliers
    I'm a tad confused how humans get 1900 STR. Per the wiki (page linked by Nilrem) the most you can get from skills and talents is 975, or 1044 with Grandmaster talent. Add in level-up stats and you can get 200 * 1.5-ish for another 300, but to break 1300 you need totems / catering / etc. More importantly, according to https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats all stats have a HARD cap at 1500 -- so additional points shouldn't have any effect
    Zarric wrote: »
    ...
    To give you an ideal, here's a few things.
    ...
    Thank you for all the information. Since I've been on and off Mabi for the last 11 or so years I ended up missing or never fully understanding most new content updates, so I didn't realize the value of Shine of Eweca. I also never realized high levels actually utilize bone chips so often. It's really awesome to see the actual numbers of a top-level player. I've still got a long ways to go, it looks like, and I guess most of my increase is going to have to come from increasing my total level at this point.
  • PolicromaPolicroma
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,050
    Posts: 511
    Member
    edited January 6
    It's really a lot of buff stacking. Reforges are only a piece of the puzzle. Now the stuff I'm about to mention... I'm nowhere near the damage some players have. So by many endgame accounts, I'm anything but "good".

    But let's start with this: A bhafel hunter can do 20k+ magnum crits, unbuffed and without reforges, assuming good base stats and a bhafel huntress (special damage multiplier arrow for that only) equipped. Let's consider this our starting point.

    Now without getting into reforges, you have:

    1. Dan 3/R1 of all applicable skills (and any other skills needed to bring stats or skill damage up)
    2. Bohemian Wear, which adds a multiplier.
    3. Enchants/titles/totems/homestead items/doll bags
    4. Redup upgrades, which again add a damage multiplier to crits based on a percentage.
    5. Battlefield Overture to add base damage multiplier. (And this skill can be buffed further through its own enchants/titles.)
    6. Food, catering, bone chips, and/or Weapon Power potions which buff base damage
    7. Combo Cards, which also add multipliers.
    8. Renown to add more crit bonus damage.

    You get the point. There's a lot of stacking that can be done.

    Now elemental reforges are more for showing off than anything. You get to hit a fox for 80k. (Bigger with all of the above.) Big whoop. A lot of endgame mobs/monsters resist elemental reforges so that won't fly in vet dungeon. So instead you get reforges that stack with the above to nudge the stats up another few percentage points, increase aiming speed/distance, or lengthen your battlefield overture.

    Now fair warning: I'm nowhere near a lot of the bigger or more notorious "endgame" players. But I can hit a sorrow/advanced song of grief for 50k (or harder on a good day). Add in Vision of Ladeca and pew pew pew she's down. I usually don't use weapon power potions or other hard-to-get consumables unless I'm with a group, so that should give you an idea of how much you should be able to do. Also, I *HATE* over-reliance on pets or silly immersion-destroying things like pets running in circles, so I rarely summon pets for that fight. (That said, some pet debuffs can be stacked as well if you're fighting something extra tough.)

    Now if all of the above sounds complicated/expensive, it is. Most players stacking this much have been playing for years, slowly dragging their damage up and up. I tend to go light on reforges myself unless I can buy them premade from other players. If you've been playing less than a year and you're trying to get a leg-up, try magic or chainblade.
  • rawrnyahrawrnyah
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
    Posts: 17
    Member
    200%? That's ridiculous! I thought reforges mostly added a flat damage boost. If I could add 200% to my damage that would account for basically all of the discrepancy between my damage and higher levels
    Keep in mind that this is a 200% added to the multiplier (though it should be noted that you can achieve 260% boost if you have two Smash 3 reforges on accessories in addition to the reforge on weapon). If you're a human Smash does 500%/620% at r1/dan3. The reforge simply adds to this turning it into 700%/820% which is a 30-40% boost to your Smash damage (not counting all the other weird interactions that could come from buff stacking, Smash enchancement etc). The way reforges interact with multiple buffs varies on a case by case basis though. For example, the final hit damage reforge is actually trash because it only adds flat damage to the end of your damage calculation so its boost is not effected by buff stacking at all.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited January 6
    Ah, my mistake. I assume they did, due to faulty information. I was assuming we were using Veteran Mobs as a baseline.

    Which isn’t inconceivable that they didn’t just buff the defensive stats...it is Nexon.

    RIP my newbness.
  • RiikuzenRiikuzen
    Mabinogi Rep: 300
    Posts: 2
    Member
    Derringer wrote: »
    But 30% here or 20% there doesn't add up to the 200-400% bonus damage I need to keep pace with end-game. There's SOMETHING I'm missing.

    I'd like to just point out this is where you're wrong simply with how the multiplicative works, keep in mind only 5 of those multiplicative "around 20% here and there"s are already (100%+20%)^5=248.8% :)

    and there's already probably much more than that mentioned here, even by yourself but you didn't research those enough or just left them out. don't underestimate a tiny bit of those

    also if you think a 37k smash is huge, you haven't really seen anything
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    Riikuzen wrote: »
    Derringer wrote: »
    But 30% here or 20% there doesn't add up to the 200-400% bonus damage I need to keep pace with end-game. There's SOMETHING I'm missing.

    I'd like to just point out this is where you're wrong simply with how the multiplicative works, keep in mind only 5 of those multiplicative "around 20% here and there"s are already (100%+20%)^5=248.8% :)

    and there's already probably much more than that mentioned here, even by yourself but you didn't research those enough or just left them out. don't underestimate a tiny bit of those

    also if you think a 37k smash is huge, you haven't really seen anything

    I’d say it is impressive, depending on the mobs.
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,650
    Posts: 1,211
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    I did it folks...I managed to smash a Wight for 2 instead of 1...with the power of redoubled offensive! wooo o 3o
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,390
    Posts: 75
    Member
    You can actually get a smash card for free, advancement badges let you roll one as a free player on any dan 3 skill so you just gotta farm combo cards until you get a good one for smash, which is a 30% difference going from skill 5>Smash on 6
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,650
    Posts: 1,211
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    Could of sworn those expire just like any combo card tho.

    Then same point of me saying pay to win, pay to keep it active lol.

    While doing dan tests is annoying, not going to put myself through hell just to keep making combo cards because the old one expired.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,410
    Posts: 536
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    Raids are usually «End-Game» content for most MMORPGs, are they not ? Speaking of which...
    I don't suppose someone could update the following page to also list tne Sylvan Dragon, Mokkurkalfi, and other Raid-Bosses ?
    https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Category:Raid_Boss
  • RheyRhey
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,030
    Posts: 1,494
    Member
    While everyone else is crunching numbers 4 U, I'll give you the easy alternative if you want. Take a small loan of a million dollars and ask the guy to sell you his stuff for a couple hundred millions G's or bribe him with a gacha jackpot item. No rng bs, no headache.