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Why do people just reject good ideas? :/

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  • LhakrymaLhakryma
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
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    edited May 3, 2017
    Short answer: subjectivity.
    Long answer: subjectivity /sʌbdʒɛkˈtɪvɪti/ noun The quality of being based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

    Here's the thing: it's not subjective. The fact that doing this does help is objective, not subjective. There is absolutely no drawback to this (different from limitations).
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Twelie wrote: »
    This. Maybe they just don't think it's such a good idea. Maybe it's not "perfect". Perhaps they're not stupid, either. Did that hostility come through in you asking?

    But can they explain why they think it's not a good idea? Substantiate your opinion, because if you don't, you just look lazy :/
    The "hostility" was just towards the genius that said "how about you learn to read"... And my position is still the same: if your rebuttal to my idea is "learn to read", then you're just being stupid, simple as that. And yes, that's my subjective opinion ;)

    The robe idea is even better and I've thought about it as well, as I said, but it's harder to implement because people are lazy :/
    YellowBin
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
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    edited May 3, 2017
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    Short answer: subjectivity.
    Long answer: subjectivity /sʌbdʒɛkˈtɪvɪti/ noun The quality of being based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

    Here's the thing: it's not subjective. The fact that doing this does help is objective, not subjective. There is absolutely no drawback to this (different from limitations).
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Twelie wrote: »
    This. Maybe they just don't think it's such a good idea. Maybe it's not "perfect". Perhaps they're not stupid, either. Did that hostility come through in you asking?

    But can they explain why they think it's not a good idea? Substantiate your opinion, because if you don't, you just look lazy :/
    The "hostility" was just towards the genius that said "how about you learn to read"... And my position is still the same: if your rebuttal to my idea is "learn to read", then you're just being stupid, simple as that. And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    The robe idea is even better and I've thought about it as well, as I said, but it's harder to implement because people are lazy :/

    He is right. People have opinions on whether it is good or bad, useful or if it is even needed. Thinking you have a good idea that it should be shielded from criticism is just hubris disguised as unbiased logic, when the bias is to ones self. He is correct. Whether or not those opinions are substantiated by fact does not preclude that people will disagree.

    I kind of doubt people on a forum would not write why it is not a good idea, seeing as that is the purpose, something that quite a few people have done in this thread.

    A matter of necessity is up for debate anyway.
    Twelie
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,480
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    In my opinion, the issues you're experiencing with other players not performing their roles properly could just as easily be solved by you or your Girgashiy-veteran cohorts TEACHING them what they're doing wrong or booting them from the team if they refuse to listen (as a last resort, mind you). If you're doing a HM or VHM you have to be on top of your game because if a certain number of your team gets killed, it's insta-fail. Leaders of those missions should be grouping people together anyway in teams of three, so paying attention to your other two and your role should be your only objectives. Normal mode is way more forgiving as it doesn't have that insta-fail issue. Which difficulty are you running on?
  • LhakrymaLhakryma
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
    Posts: 44
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    edited May 3, 2017
    He is right. People have opinions on whether it is good or bad, useful or if it is even needed. Thinking you have a good idea that it should be shielded from criticism is just hubris disguised as unbiased logic, when the bias is to ones self. He is correct. Whether or not those opinions are substantiated by fact does not preclude that people will disagree.

    I kind of doubt people on a forum would not write why it is not a good idea, seeing as that is the purpose, something that quite a few people have done in this thread.

    A matter of necessity is up for debate anyway.

    I'm not saying the idea is not up for criticism, on the contrary. I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.

    As such, there's no matter of subjectivity it's it's usefulness.

    Now I might be wasting my time explaining these concepts, so I'll stop trying to.

    Nobody said why it's "not a good idea", they just pointed out it's limitations and offered better ideas. If you think that, because of some of these limitations, it makes it a bad idea, then I'm sorry to point this out to you, but you're plain wrong.
  • NekoLilyNekoLily
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,335
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    Lhakryma wrote: »
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.



  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
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    Lhakryma wrote: »
    He is right. People have opinions on whether it is good or bad, useful or if it is even needed. Thinking you have a good idea that it should be shielded from criticism is just hubris disguised as unbiased logic, when the bias is to ones self. He is correct. Whether or not those opinions are substantiated by fact does not preclude that people will disagree.

    I kind of doubt people on a forum would not write why it is not a good idea, seeing as that is the purpose, something that quite a few people have done in this thread.

    A matter of necessity is up for debate anyway.

    I'm not saying the idea is not up for criticism, on the contrary. I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.

    As such, there's no matter of subjectivity it's it's usefulness.

    Now I might be wasting my time explaining these concepts, so I'll stop trying to.

    Nobody said why it's "not a good idea", they just pointed out it's limitations and offered better ideas. If you think that, because of some of these limitations, it makes it a bad idea, then I'm sorry to point this out to you, but you're plain wrong.

    I cannot imagine it being useful for seasoned raiders, who are likely to pick up after a few times, but I usually do not have a problem attaching names on the squad overhead to people in the area, but perhaps that is just me. However, its usefulness can only be utilized by players that want it and need it, and I think that for a subtle change, it is not quite necessary enough for me to consider if only a few people will bother to use it. I also dislike the idea of it not being able to be toggled off.

    That being said, it does not seem like quite a big change to warrant that much code, but I am not sure.
    NekoLily wrote: »
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.



    He was probably referring to that it was his opinion, and that is a fact, to highlight the nature of whatever argument I am not going to read, because screw it.

    So in a sense, the fact was that it was how he thinks it should be, proven by his responses.

    That being said, I am not sure what the point of this was.
  • iGUMMYB3ARSiGUMMYB3ARS
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    Or you can just communicate on what you're suppose to be doing. If the group is the type to fail at communicating before running, you might as well just leave and find a party that actually communicates on their roles. A lot of times, they do.
    Leinei
  • LhakrymaLhakryma
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
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    edited May 3, 2017
    NekoLily wrote: »
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)

    In that case, it's not harmful. It's not any more harmful than any other talent icon, and if you can't use them, then the idea still isn't harmful because you wouldn't be using it anyway, which it would still be helpful to those that use it.
    You didn't argue that the idea was bad, you're arguing that the titles lag some people and they remove them. This doesn't make the idea bad, as I said, if you hide your icon, I can still see yours, so it can still help me, while not being harmful to you (if you use it) since not seeing your normal talent icon is the same for you as not seeing the role specific talent icon.

    To sum it up: if you use the idea but hide your icon, it still helps those who don't hide the icons while NOT harming you at all.

    That's it. It's objectively helpful.
    NekoLily wrote: »
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.

    Yup, sorry, that was a typo xD
    I edited it, I meant ot say "it's my subjective opinion" :D
    Thanks for pointing it out to me, I bet that made me look like a pretty big idiot that has no idea what he's talking about xD
    I cannot imagine it being useful for seasoned raiders, who are likely to pick up after a few times, but I usually do not have a problem attaching names on the squad overhead to people in the area, but perhaps that is just me. However, its usefulness can only be utilized by players that want it and need it, and I think that for a subtle change, it is not quite necessary enough for me to consider if only a few people will bother to use it. I also dislike the idea of it not being able to be toggled off.

    That being said, it does not seem like quite a big change to warrant that much code, but I am not sure.

    Yes you're right, it won't be useful for players that already know what they're doing, and I've acknowledged this :D, but for newbies or people that lack organisation, it's a good idea.
    I don't think it would be that hard to code in something like this, or even better, just color the names of players a certain color depending on their team, since there's already name color changes in the game :), this way would actually be better now that I think about it :)
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
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    Lhakryma wrote: »
    NekoLily wrote: »
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)

    In that case, it's not harmful. It's not any more harmful than any other talent icon, and if you can't use them, then the idea still isn't harmful because you wouldn't be using it anyway, which it would still be helpful to those that use it.
    You didn't argue that the idea was bad, you're arguing that the titles lag some people and they remove them. This doesn't make the idea bad, as I said, if you hide your icon, I can still see yours, so it can still help me, while not being harmful to you (if you use it) since not seeing your normal talent icon is the same for you as not seeing the role specific talent icon.

    To sum it up: if you use the idea but hide your icon, it still helps those who don't hide the icons while NOT harming you at all.

    That's it. It's objectively helpful.
    NekoLily wrote: »
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.

    Yup, sorry, that was a typo xD
    I edited it, I meant ot say "it's my subjective opinion" :D
    Thanks for pointing it out to me, I bet that made me look like a pretty big idiot that has no idea what he's talking about xD
    I cannot imagine it being useful for seasoned raiders, who are likely to pick up after a few times, but I usually do not have a problem attaching names on the squad overhead to people in the area, but perhaps that is just me. However, its usefulness can only be utilized by players that want it and need it, and I think that for a subtle change, it is not quite necessary enough for me to consider if only a few people will bother to use it. I also dislike the idea of it not being able to be toggled off.

    That being said, it does not seem like quite a big change to warrant that much code, but I am not sure.

    Yes you're right, it won't be useful for players that already know what they're doing, and I've acknowledged this :D, but for newbies or people that lack organisation, it's a good idea.
    I don't think it would be that hard to code in something like this, or even better, just color the names of players a certain color depending on their team, since there's already name color changes in the game :), this way would actually be better now that I think about it :)

    That is the point I am making. Only veterans at this point bother to run it. In any case, I doubt that newbies are on a whole far less intelligent to work together and attach roles to names on the spot. Most of it is knowing what to do in the first place. It may help, but my argument lays in how little the group would utilize it. That being said, it is a pretty trifle change to implement as well.
  • ZephyrsongishnotmehZephyrsongishnotmeh
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
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    Lhakryma wrote: »
    I came up with an excellent idea for girg raids: let's use different talent title icons depending on our roles, so all the bladers use warrior icon, all the shielders use cleric icon and all the spikers use ninja icon. It's PERFECT and it would help people screw up less -_-

    When I suggested this idea to my party, one genius' reply was simply "learn to read"... Yeah...

    Why do some people just have to be this stupid? :/
    Admittedly this idea won't help the really good teams because they're already working together as a... well... TEAM, but this idea is great when playing with strangers.

    Now that I think about it, it might be because most of the people in this game have next to no clue about most of the systems in the game and they brute forced their totals, without actually understanding the game...

    Yep, so....

    I'm with the "learn to read" guy on this. while its not the most positive thing to reply with hes basically telling you to pay attention which is all you really have to do. Girgash is simple when done right, just group your respective people in the raid party and pay attention. The last thing we need are people following talent icons instead of names or other better thought out methods, this is how 3 people end up grouped on 1 shielder and Yeesus knows those shenanigans get old quick.

    Secondly calling someone stupid because they don't respond to your idea in a positive way is a great way get everyone to ignore you indefinitely.
    FullBucketPimpDaddy
  • LhakrymaLhakryma
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    Excuse me, have you ever played this game? Do you know how shitty the contrast between names and everything else is in the game, in addition to everything moving everywhere? I literally have to squint and focus for like 3 seconds to get someone's name, all this after headbutting my monitor... And I'm not the only one, literally everybody I know does this as well, and with people having, ahem, "unorthodox" names, it just doesn't work most of the times. Sure if you play with the same people over and over again you get used to them, but playing with different people almost all the times is what usually happens.

    And yes, you've got to be pretty freaking stupid to reply to an idea like this with "learn to read". First of all, reading skills are not the problem, reading their name isn't the hard part, the hard part is making out the minuscule letters in all the commotion with the crappy contrast, everything flashing and everybody moving everywhere. All the pets everywhere whose names are "John Doe's Doggie" popping in and out of existence aren't really helping this case either. Oh did I mention multiple names overlapping and not being able to make out any of them? None of this is a problem if you use the talent icon as a guide, if they overlap you can still make out rather easily the icon.
    Secondly, it DOES take a stupid person to say something like that. You're not accepting the idea, not rejecting it, not giving constructive criticism (or any kind of criticism for that matter), not giving a reason, it's basically an irrelevant statement that serves no purpose whatsoever other than burning a few calories typing it...
    Greta
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
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    Okay, here's the thing. As someone with a mabi so unsuited for his old computer (because it was able to run it on decent fps on lowest graphics options just fine in ordinary situations, yet crashed all the damn time anyway because who cares about people with weaker machines), let me scroll back and point out the most important reponses for you, in my opinion:
    He is right you know.... just read the name in the party.
    Your idea is not too good because:
    1. Changing talent have 24 hour real time cool down.
    2. Most people that need shield know where to position themself.
    3. Some people minimize name, talent icon or both.

    (Literally the third response in the thread)
    Just make ppl wear robes with some color.
    Everyone should have a set of robes they own in different colors.
    some hue of red- blade.
    some hue of blue - shield
    some hue of grey - spike.
    doesn't have to be on point and pure expensive colors. But just a color that indicates at minimum would be much more manageable than something that is limited.

    Or a casual print shirt that is two toned: main color as the group. secondary as the role.

    Idk, a server or the entire mabi community can decide what colors to use or something, whatever.
    Xiokun

    (This reponse is also on the first page)

    While distinguishing between people in a party of randomers may not be the worst idea, using talents for it definitely is. There's no switching talents, nor does it help the confusion for those who HAVE to toggle these things off because of the lag. On the topic of the last thing I quoted, red is a horribly expensive color. Instead, replace it with yellow/gold because it's very, very inexpensive, at least on Alexina. Or if nothing else, pink, because the saga viewing coupons drop them like mad anyway. Now I know not everyone likes those colors, but they're easily accessible. Upside? If someone using a crappy computer like my old one WAS to be faced with colored robes, maximum minimization STILL SHOWS COLORS. Ergo, it's the best choice, because robes are also cheap and if you buy different kinds they can be stored in the dressing room.

    Downside? Not everyone can afford even this, or perhaps they can't have them on the fly. But if the majority of one server sticks to the general idea, there will only be a handful of people without robes joining each time, thus minimizing the confusion for EVERYONE. Anyway, I agree that this is not even necessary for most parts, because I have faith people are fairly quick to pick up what their role does. If you have healers, it doesn't even matter until you're doing hard mode, unless you're insanely bad as a whole, but then nothing can help you. Therefore, in a way, I can agree with the learn to read statement. But instead of learning to read, more like..get used to your part. There's no shame in being inexperienced and people NEED to be nice enough to guide you through your first experiences without being salty, so that's the community's responsibility towards the new players or people with lacking pattern recognition.

    Likewise, if that idea were to become a thing, naturally everyone joining for the first time should be nicely warmed up to the concept of how things are done, instead of being shouted at and called stupid. There are nicer ways. I don't like running public runs because of the potentially elitist and toxic atmosphere, or everyone suddenly deciding to do the pacifist run without actually letting people know, so I guess it's whatever to me.
  • LhakrymaLhakryma
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    Yes, I acknowledged those drawbacks, but again, they do not make the idea itself bad.
    - Can only switch it once every 24h. Well then, it's useful once, but it still IS useful.
    - Most people know where to go. No they don't, and this is also not aimed at them.
    - Some people minimise. Then this won't affect them anyway and it will help those who use it and aren't minimised. Also you're not seeing names in that case anyway.
    \
    "using talents for it definitely is."
    - Why? Because you can do it only once? If you already did it once that day, you just say so and we're not going with it anymore. Not that hard tbh.

    "nor does it help the confusion for those who HAVE to toggle these things off because of the lag"
    - No, but it does help the others, and as I said it doesn't HURT those who have to switch them off.

    Robes are a better idea I agree, but still people are incredibly lazy and even with the help of the dressing room, most of them couldn't be arsed to do it.

    "But instead of learning to read, more like..get used to your part"
    - Well the thing is, as I've said, it's not my part that I'm worried about. I constantly had other shields running into me while leaving spikes and blades defenseless, and when I don't have anybody near me, I don't know whether the nearest person is a shield or not.

    Also I never called anybody stupid ingame, just here on the forums, and it wasn't personal to anybody, I don't even remember who that genius was lol
    And yes, I'll repeat, replying with "learn to read" in this context is a sign of stupidity. I've explained it in detail before xD

    To be honest you don't even need to color code all roles, just the shields, because for you as a shield, you don't really care if you're shielding a spike and a blade, or 2 spikes or 2 blades,

    Ideally, the title icons are better in some regards, since it doesn't occupy any inventory and everybody has access to it off the bat.
    YellowBin
  • YellowBinYellowBin
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    edited May 3, 2017
    NekoLily wrote: »
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.



    The robe idea is actually a good idea, even if people limit their graphics.
    The color of the robe will persist as an indicator even if all characters are minimized thus helping reduce lag significantly due to less visual strain.

    In the end there really are no drawbacks with robes. It has no limiter except for inventory space which isn't much of a big problem if you have others like the leader willing to use their space to hold the robes for their party member.

    EVEN THEN, in the event of forming a party, all the shields can EASILY purchase a cruces robe at the cost of a measly 2k gold at the same time OF the same color. It's not a problem of affordability in that way.

    Then you can throw away the robe or whatever if you are done with it, or resell it. It's not that much of a big deal to implement it.

    It takes less work for Nexon and less work for the players to find their nearest shield regardless or not you are a pro or a newbie.
    Even players that know what they are doing can get lost sometimes. These things just act as an aid whether you need it or not.
    The players should be able to create systems on their own so that the company itself can focus on other possibly bigger projects.

  • LeineiLeinei
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    edited May 3, 2017
    Ok, regarding that idea regarding using Talent to designate your role? It's not a good idea. Why? Because people change their roles from raid run to raid run. One player who is a blader one run could be a shielder the next depending on their daily requirements. It also seeks to confuse your allies beyond that first run, so it's not a viable idea, especially when you get newcomers joining to replace those that finish their dailies. People tend to not sit idle during the times these runs are held, so waiting 24 in-game hours to change your symbol isn't going to happen. You'll be one-and-done at that point.

    I minimize the names because it helps with the lag, since I usually run normals. I just tend to memorize what the shielders look like and just track them inside the mission.

    Regarding the issues with shielders, talk to them or get your raid leader to. Shields are the line of defense and they're crucial to starting the chain to bring Gir down. If you're frustrated about it, chances are so are your fellow raiders. Communication is key here. If someone isn't doing their job, they need to know so they can get better. Better raiders mean you can advance to more difficult runs and get better rewards.
    YellowBinTwelie
  • YellowBinYellowBin
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    edited May 3, 2017
    Leinei wrote: »
    Ok, regarding that idea regarding using Talent to designate your role? It's not a good idea. Why? Because people change their roles from raid run to raid run. One player who is a blader one run could be a shielder the next depending on their daily requirements. It also seeks to confuse your allies beyond that first run, so it's not a viable idea, especially when you get newcomers joining to replace those that finish their dailies. People tend to not sit idle during the times these runs are held, so waiting 24 in-game hours to change your symbol isn't going to happen. You'll be one-and-done at that point.

    I minimize the names because it helps with the lag, since I usually run normals. I just tend to memorize what the shielders look like and just track them inside the mission.

    Regarding the issues with shielders, talk to them or get your raid leader to. Shields are the line of defense and they're crucial to starting the chain to bring Gir down. If you're frustrated about it, chances are so are your fellow raiders. Communication is key here. If someone isn't doing their job, they need to know so they can get better. Better raiders mean you can advance to more difficult runs and get better rewards.

    The cruces robe of the shielder can be traded to the next just as easily to maintain order.

    If Communication is a weakness and therefore indicators can act as a way to take care of that.
    Not everyone is able to communicate either they are new and shy or that they are too busy doing their roles.
    Even if everyone communicates, mistakes are bound to happen where people run around frantically looking for a shield and are too slow.

    Everyone is at least somewhat confused as to how things worked on the firsts runs it's natural, but I doubt it takes a lot of explanation to look for the colored robed person to be protected by.

    In the end the discussion is going to be whether or not this system will help or not.

    The title idea is very faulty, that huge limiter of time really gets in the way.(period)
  • TwelieTwelie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,965
    Posts: 203
    Member
    edited May 3, 2017
    NekoLily wrote: »
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    Here's a different way to notice it: if everybody would use it, would this idea help the players? Yes. Is there any way it would be bad for the players? No. The fact that it would help if everybody used it is independent of other player's opinions, ergo it's objective.
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    I'm saying that it's an objective fact that is would only help. Regardless of anybody's opinion, it's objective the fact that it would not be bad/harmful. There is no way in which it would be harmful.
    "Is there any way it would be bad for the players?" YES. You forget all the people that has lag issues, it's not someone's opinion, but a true fact (people with bad connection - European Players - Australians Players - Bad Computers - Extremely Laggy day because a lot of people are online in that moment)
    Why lag could be bad for only a talent displayed? People in this thread already told you that most of them removes almost everything (mini effects, other effects, Name, Party, minimizing nearby players).
    And this is not MY opinion, is a fact. A fact based on the status of the server and the objective informations regarding player (computers, distance with the server and connections)
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    And yes, that's my objective opinion ;)

    You know an opinion CAN NOT be objective? It's an opinion, not an objective fact.



    ^^ this. Also, as said before, you can only change it once a day. What of the people who already have changed it? What of the people who don't want to change their display? What of the people who minimize to reduce lag? People have already stated this previous. Also, I believe it'd be more efficient to instead just have an understanding of who is doing what and making a plan(the robes would work, too, but I don't know how you'd get people to agree. They like looking shiny), rather than trying to get everyone to agree to change their talent titles.
    Lhakryma wrote: »
    But can they explain why they think it's not a good idea? Substantiate your opinion, because if you don't, you just look lazy :/

    The robe idea is even better and I've thought about it as well, as I said, but it's harder to implement because people are lazy :/
    I basically just parroted everyone else. Also, it's not even necessarily because "people are lazy" and don't want to wear a robe. Maybe they want to enjoy the way their character looks. It's Mabinogi. People are like that. Well, I'm sure in any mmo people are like that. If someone is paying for style tab, or don't wear armour in favor of clothing, they probably care alot about their character looking nice. I know, I know, "could it kill you to just wear a robe for once in a combat situation?" I think that too. But alot of people won't. They value their looks.
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,480
    Posts: 2,272
    Member
    edited May 3, 2017
    YellowBin wrote: »
    Leinei wrote: »
    Ok, regarding that idea regarding using Talent to designate your role? It's not a good idea. Why? Because people change their roles from raid run to raid run. One player who is a blader one run could be a shielder the next depending on their daily requirements. It also seeks to confuse your allies beyond that first run, so it's not a viable idea, especially when you get newcomers joining to replace those that finish their dailies. People tend to not sit idle during the times these runs are held, so waiting 24 in-game hours to change your symbol isn't going to happen. You'll be one-and-done at that point.

    I minimize the names because it helps with the lag, since I usually run normals. I just tend to memorize what the shielders look like and just track them inside the mission.

    Regarding the issues with shielders, talk to them or get your raid leader to. Shields are the line of defense and they're crucial to starting the chain to bring Gir down. If you're frustrated about it, chances are so are your fellow raiders. Communication is key here. If someone isn't doing their job, they need to know so they can get better. Better raiders mean you can advance to more difficult runs and get better rewards.

    The cruces robe of the shielder can be traded to the next just as easily to maintain order.

    If Communication is a weakness and therefore indicators can act as a way to take care of that.
    Not everyone is able to communicate either they are new and shy or that they are too busy doing their roles.
    Even if everyone communicates, mistakes are bound to happen where people run around frantically looking for a shield and are too slow.

    Everyone is at least somewhat confused as to how things worked on the firsts runs it's natural, but I doubt it takes a lot of explanation to look for the colored robed person to be protected by.

    In the end the discussion is going to be whether or not this system will help or not.

    The title idea is very faulty, that huge limiter of time really gets in the way.(period)

    Communication for the most part should occur before the runs because of the fact you're kept busy. I also just find the robe aspect to just be rather odd, but I've run enough raids to where the stuff that OP is complaining about doesn't happen all that often.
    Twelie
  • TwelieTwelie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,965
    Posts: 203
    Member
    Leinei wrote: »
    Communication for the most part should occur before the runs because of the fact you're kept busy. I also just find the robe aspect to just be rather odd, but I've run enough raids to where the stuff that OP is complaining about doesn't happen all that often.

    What server are you on? I'm wondering if it's a server problem or a specific group of new/uncoordinated people.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    Just to repeat, an automatic change specifically for this battle, and a change back tot he previous icon, doesn't really seem impossible. Sort of like Part Time Job titles. Does anyone still do Part Time Jobs? :(