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Death Of Mabi's Economy

Comments

  • SurreptitiouslySurreptitiously
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,560
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    edited October 12, 2017
    Archmagick wrote: »
    How to fix economy

    1: make checks untradable for a 24 hour duration, then reset all gold values in banks/pets and inventory > 100m to 100m and delete all checks
    2: Allow a special limited time use of Defragmentation to turn gacha items into random checks between 100k-1m, expand Defrag table and add more useful mats
    3: Buff blacksmithing and tailoring to give significant boosts on all equipment
    4: Implement strong anti bot/macro protection, revert VHM/Conflict gold nerfs, make VIP/Daily double gold rewards
    5: Increase rare drop rates across the board for NA

    Uhhhh. What? I hope you realize that with these two points that anybody able to run VHM will just have an hourly intake of ~2m spamming it. You'll certainly "Fix" the economy but it'd be closer to rigging it.
    GretaTheNyanCatPrezzix
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,670
    Posts: 886
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    edited October 12, 2017
    Archmagick wrote: »
    How to fix economy

    1: make checks untradable for a 24 hour duration, then reset all gold values in banks/pets and inventory > 100m to 100m and delete all checks
    2: Allow a special limited time use of Defragmentation to turn gacha items into random checks between 100k-1m, expand Defrag table and add more useful mats
    3: Buff blacksmithing and tailoring to give significant boosts on all equipment
    4: Implement strong anti bot/macro protection, revert VHM/Conflict gold nerfs, make VIP/Daily double gold rewards
    5: Increase rare drop rates across the board for NA

    You honestly think that VHM will help the Economy? Okay so here are some numbers for you: On Mari, people were running VHM 5hours with about 40-50 success runs per hours, getting 50k per run. So thats what...let's take 50 on good day. 50 per hour. so thats 250 every day. 250 runs * 50k = 12,500,000 per person every day. Now we take that number and *7 (for weekly) That is 87,500,000 THat 1 person was making per week. Thats 1 person, not calculating the whole team. So let's say 20 people making 87mil per week. Those 20 people are keeping the gold for themselves, and not sharing it with others. So pretty much in your eyes, fixing the economy is 20 people being able to have any amount of money they want, being able to instantly outbid anyone for anything they want, while continuing to get more money?

    Also this will just shoot up the price of Gacha items. Example: When Detective outfits came out. Three people in VHM right off the bat were offering 50mil. Which pushed the prices up and set the price for the items. They ended up crashing to 40mil. It wasn't until the 3rd time they were brought back that people were able to pay 10mil to get them. Reforges were also 700k and brought all the time at that price because people had the money to do so.

    Since the nerf, things have been crashing and stabilizing. People can now buy reforges at 17mil a stack instead of having to pay, around 25mil a stack and prices have gone down to about 450k-500k per one reforges. I remember before very hard mode came along, reforges were like 300k each and that was considered to be over pricing. Gacha items have also not been as high.

    Reverting the VHM will only drive the prices up alot more.
    badnewsbarrettCarlizeGretaTheNyanCatArchdukeValeCortezYurei
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
    Posts: 6,975
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    edited October 12, 2017
    Archmagick wrote: »
    Also I forgot #6 - eliminate all transaction fees and drastically lower gold cost of Special Upgrades.

    You must be kidding... We need those for gold sink.
    If we lose good gold sink, that will only make Mabinogi even worse, because everyone will be able to save more gold, which means inflation increase and everything will go even more expensive. I don't really want to buy stuff like Holy Water for like 200k per stack. Nope...
    TairikuSherri
  • ___Talon______Talon___
    Mabinogi Rep: 560
    Posts: 3
    Member
    edited October 15, 2017
    I disagree. Here's why:
    -I've essentially played since release, but since a few years ago quit. The economy has never just become dead (the game has become dead, because everyone has essentially quit) despite inflation and deflation because of gold-duping and gold-sinks.
    -This same exact thing that you are describing (much to the displeasure of anyone who crafts) has been going on since essentially the start. i.e Valencia plate armor, any eastern swords, Dustin, Colossus armor, etc etc. The value should and mostly will come from the enchants applied to any particular weapon, not because it was crafted, as per usual. Which cannot be crafted, only obtained as a reward, (or from gacha), and then applied successfully.
    -The money will not disappear, despite all the gold sinks in this game because you or other exclusive crafters do not have more than everyone else. If there was one thing Angelwing back then, I felt was good at, it was harnessing the most efficient way to come into generally NX exclusive items with ease while at the same time being a crafter and enchanter, and that's partially what made him so rich back then. Not that I have any ideas as to how what he did would be remotely possible now.
    -The economy moves despite gacha, and just like people who buy gold, it only moves into one persons hands who get it without actually working for it. That doesn't destroy the economy, that's actually just a lot more like real life, really, although unfair. It doesn't necessarily affect the economy in general, just the value of one particular item as opposed to another. That's why, after a lot of thinking, I don't really hate or have any distaste for people who buy gold.

    Are gachas unfair? Yes. Do they destroy the economy? No, not necessarily. Do I like them? No, nor do I buy them.

    If you want to know what I think really killed this game, it was those god damn 'splodey pets. That, and bad AI.
  • iMattxCiMattxC
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,075
    Posts: 64
    Member
    Nillstan wrote: »
    Introduction
    Hello and welcome to my first post. My name is Nillstan of the Tarlach server. If you play on a different server and believe that all I say in this article doesn't apply to you, by all means leave. But I'm absolutely sure that all servers will fall victim to this same fate. You may also feel that I'm fulla crap. That's you. If you feel this way, get lost. Odds are you got here by accident anyway. Get it? Got it? Good. Let’s get into it.


    The Mabiconomy Past

    We're gonna start with the Mabiconomy as it once was. Way back when it didn't SUCK. The high tiered items were stable. Celtics, Demonics, And other weapons and armours of that tier will be considered God tier for this page. They were also stable. Players who've played to post 5k had access to God tier gear almost exclusively. High tier gear was for post 1k players and newbies who got it as a gift. Everything else, Mid and Low tier gear and items, were for newer players. But all of them were accessible, and if you needed to get rid of an item it was possible. There was always someone who wanted your items. Even low tier ones. And you know what all decent tiered items had in common? They were all made by dedicated productioners like Repnto and I. But then the several gachas screwed everything up. And that's where the Mabiconomy as it is now comes in. And it's trash.

    The Mabiconomy Present

    Nowadays, everything is so outta wack it’s not even funny. Because of the gachas.

    Low and mid tier items have fallen off the map. They exist to almost no one. High tiered items are steadily losing value, becoming low tier items. In fact, the only thing holding (Former)high tiered items on the board are the Celtics and Dragon Gear. And even they, what used to be God tiered items, are losing value at an alarming rate. And don’t even get me started on the Demonics. The market for Demonics is so low that I cant even rightfully say it exists anymore, except forGloomies. Then again, the Demonic Market had a huge screwup from DevCat and the Mabinogi team. The gachas were not kind to these. Because by having Demonics come from the Gacha as well, the Mabi Team added an extremely huge amount of Demonics into circulation, almost matching the number of players there are. Part of what made the Demonics special, and so valuable, was the fact that they were so rare! Before the Gacha Screw-Up, they had to be made. And they could only be crafted by masters of crafting. And those who’d rather make things than break them are rare as it is in any MMO(Extremely Vague. Mabi has many dedicated crafters). The Demonics added to the Gacha rewards ruined the Demonic Market. Because why would you pay millions for an item that you can just get from the gacha for minimal effort?


    You may be asking yourself, well what does the gacha have to do with Mabi’s economy? Well, a lot really. Take a look through Belvast’s Shops. Have a look at what you’ll find. 9 out of 10 Items you’ll find are gacha exclusive. That’s right. The gacha items flooded the market, becoming the only High and God tier items. They cant be made. If you try to sell a non-gacha item, odds are you’ll have to dig into the deepest crevices of Mabi’s player base to find a buyer. It’s near impossible. That places fault on both Mabi’s Dev team, and the PTP(Pay-To-Play) Gamers. You did this. You ruined the market for everyone who doesn’t drop hundreds on this game. And the worst part is this, you probably don’t even realize it.

    By paying real money for the gacha items and flooding the player market with them, you removed all High and God tiered items from circulation. You may think that this isn’t a big deal. After all, cant the gacha items just take the place of the former tiered items and everything just level out again? NO! THEY CANT! By removing the old Tiered items, you remove the need for production! By having the Gacha take over the market, you cut more than half of the player base out of the economy! Gacha items are expensive. Too expensive for players with no Gacha items to keep up. And this is where The Mabiconomy Stands as is. Now for the prediction.

    The Mabiconomy Future

    Soon. Not later. Soon. That’s when the crash is coming. As the old tiered items fall even farther out of circulation, the gacha fills the market to the brim. Half the player base is cut out of the market completely. Only the PTP players, and some well standing FTP Players, are left standing. Trade resumes as normal. However, there’s a catch. Soon after, as more and more of the PTP Players amasses all the items they could ever dream of, the economy slows. Nothing gets bought or sold. It slows to a standstill, leaving the FTP Players poor, and the PTP Players so rich they don’t know what to do with themselves. Then, when everyone least expects it, BAM! The economy crashes. With no one buying or selling, everyone’s backpacks lose value so rapidly that all, And I do mean All, players will be left in poverty. But the PTP community, dead set in their ways, will see no change. In a rush to restore their backpacks to their former glory, they’ll turn to the same thing that ruined the economy in the first place. But the gacha wont save them. In fact, the gacha will push the economy even farther into poverty. The new gacha items will refill the market, pushing everyone but a select few straight back down into poverty. This process will repeat until only four or five players are sitting with backpacks of any kind of value. The economy will fail soon if nothing is done about it. But it’s not just about backpack value! With the economy dead and no one wanting the old tiered items, production too will die. All but three of the life skills will become useless. Almost half of the game’s core components are dead. And there’s almost no way to bring them back. Except for this.

    The Saving Grace: How To Fix The Economy Before The Crash

    These few suggestions are controversial. And believe me. I do want to hear what you think, so send me a note in-game if you got somethin’ to say.

    1.Remove Demonics from the Saga and Gacha rewards

    Doing this will return a major part of the economy, albeit slowly, back to circulation. They weren't that good of weapons to be sure, but the rarity was worth having way back when


    2.Stop the Gacha as a Community

    This will almost single handedly stop the crash from coming. I understand that people who do the gacha will probably not stop doing the gacha. All that really needs to be done is for them to stop flooding the market with the items, but gradually introduce the gacha items one at a time to avoid a crash. It doesn't have to stop altogether. The Gacha as a whole is a good thing. Bringing high value items into circulation. The problem comes from them putting craftables in, and from the players flooding the market with the Gachas uncraftables.


    3.Revamp Production

    The Music Q update brought about the return of an almost dead talent(The recreational half of music). We need one of these for production. New items, updated stats for old items, rebalances! All made through production, just as it should be. The God and High tiers will return to their former glory, replacing the gacha flood. The Low and Mid tier items will become useful again. All will be right with the world of Mabinogi, and everyone is a little richer at the end of the day.

    Are you forgetting that most demonic weapons suck? No one wants them because they are more expensive than better items.
  • ArchmagickArchmagick
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
    Posts: 22
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Archmagick wrote: »
    Also I forgot #6 - eliminate all transaction fees and drastically lower gold cost of Special Upgrades.

    You must be kidding... We need those for gold sink.
    If we lose good gold sink, that will only make Mabinogi even worse, because everyone will be able to save more gold, which means inflation increase and everything will go even more expensive. I don't really want to buy stuff like Holy Water for like 200k per stack. Nope...

    The problem with the economy isn't inflation, it's wealth inequality. Gold sinks don't solve wealth inequality because the very wealthy don't need to buy anything, except repairs, and it's really easy to break even on repairs.

    "You honestly think that VHM will help the Economy? Okay so here are some numbers for you: On Mari, people were running VHM 5hours with about 40-50 success runs per hours, getting 50k per run. So thats what...let's take 50 on good day. 50 per hour. so thats 250 every day. 250 runs * 50k = 12,500,000 per person every day. Now we take that number and *7 (for weekly) That is 87,500,000 THat 1 person was making per week. Thats 1 person, not calculating the whole team. So let's say 20 people making 87mil per week. Those 20 people are keeping the gold for themselves, and not sharing it with others. So pretty much in your eyes, fixing the economy is 20 people being able to have any amount of money they want, being able to instantly outbid anyone for anything they want, while continuing to get more money?"

    That's a pretty extreme case but it is plausible. I just think nerfing gold gain causes more problems than it solves, and VHM is pretty inaccessible for the average player (though not as inaccessible as one might think). Still, this doesn't address the core problem of most people not having the gold to buy the massive amounts of items on the market.
  • ___Talon______Talon___
    Mabinogi Rep: 560
    Posts: 3
    Member
    edited October 15, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Does anyone remember what happened back in 2011 when tons of illegal (duped) gold entered the economy and the prices of everything went through the roof? Do you remember when Holy Water was 500k for a stack of 10? Despite all of that damage; Mabinogi's Economy survived. ~ (Put that in your think-pipe and smoke on it for awhile).
    I disagree. Here's why:
    -I've essentially played since release, but since a few years ago quit. The economy has never just become dead (the game has become dead, because everyone has essentially quit) despite inflation and deflation because of gold-duping and gold-sinks.


    I too, have seen hell.
    [Deleted User]Sherri
  • ___Talon______Talon___
    Mabinogi Rep: 560
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @___Talon___ ~ The fact you can buy it for less than 50k a stack right now completely obliterates the relation with today's economy. Do you remember how fast the Tyrfing and the Caladbolg made it into the market after Commerce was released (despite the hundreds of hours it should have taken)? Do you remember the 150k ducat free-for-all (If that episode didn't crash and burn the economy, nothing will.)? ~ The fact of the matter is the continuity of this game has very little to do with its 'market economy' ..

    No, I agree with you. The economy isn't the cause of the game dying. The pakers bought the Caladbolg and Tyrfing with regular gold from the NPCs, rather than Ducats, iirc. I don't remember the 150K ducat free-for-all. Maybe the economy will have worsening affects based on the fact that everything moves slower because there is vastly less people playing this game then there was about 2 years ago. The economy will basically always return to the way it is, value will rise and drop based on whats in gacha and different people will hold the money. Fashion items will cost a ton, comparatively.

    In any case, the economy won't die, nor the game, because of anything mentioned in the OP.
    [Deleted User]FayeKaibaGretaSherri
  • DarkHyperShadowDarkHyperShadow
    Mabinogi Rep: 420
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    Another thing that they are not doing is not bringing back items(be it fashion or weapons) that were once (or can be still) good. they have put allot of items in the back burner that only a hand full of people still know about. there are allot of old weapons i used to see years ago that you dont see anymore. there are some old outfits that were gacha only that have not shown back up in market in years as well. they should be trying to market blast from the past gacha items. im not talking about the over powered ones. i want items like Eluned Alchemist sets or Dragonslayer, Viseo's Bronze Mirror Blade, the list goes on. im not saying all of these items would have value in the market now but it would be nice to see them return and maybe it would be nice to see the market go for something nostalgic and fashion rather than whats the most overpowered gear you can buy and whats the highest price you can sell it at
  • TheNyanCatTheNyanCat
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,665
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    Archmagick wrote: »

    The problem with the economy isn't inflation, it's wealth inequality. Gold sinks don't solve wealth inequality because the very wealthy don't need to buy anything, except repairs, and it's really easy to break even on repairs.

    "You honestly think that VHM will help the Economy? Okay so here are some numbers for you: On Mari, people were running VHM 5hours with about 40-50 success runs per hours, getting 50k per run. So thats what...let's take 50 on good day. 50 per hour. so thats 250 every day. 250 runs * 50k = 12,500,000 per person every day. Now we take that number and *7 (for weekly) That is 87,500,000 THat 1 person was making per week. Thats 1 person, not calculating the whole team. So let's say 20 people making 87mil per week. Those 20 people are keeping the gold for themselves, and not sharing it with others. So pretty much in your eyes, fixing the economy is 20 people being able to have any amount of money they want, being able to instantly outbid anyone for anything they want, while continuing to get more money?"

    That's a pretty extreme case but it is plausible. I just think nerfing gold gain causes more problems than it solves, and VHM is pretty inaccessible for the average player (though not as inaccessible as one might think). Still, this doesn't address the core problem of most people not having the gold to buy the massive amounts of items on the market.

    It's these kinds of gold rewards that cause inequality in the first place. You just said yourself that not everyone can run VHM yet you want the gold nerfs to be reverted. I still remember the economy when saga 6 and VHM pre gold nerf, dyes and reforges literally doubled in prices overnight and has stayed that way and as someone else has already mentioned more expensive items like the Detective outfit were going for obscene prices and has only now dropped down now that VHM was nerfed. You say that nerfing gold rewards does more harm than good and that you want equality but it's that exact thing that causes that inequality, having content that only higher end players can complete gives them access to literally millions of easy gold will drive prices for literally every item sky high. Even if a fourth of the gold in that example entered the game it would have serious consequences, and you need to remember that it's not some kind of limited event, it's permanent content so it doesn't matter how much it gives when people will grind it for hours on end everyday. 50k gold per person in a 16 man party that takes literally 30 seconds to finish is a very scary thought.

    The reason most people can't afford most items in the game is because stronger players are inflating the market and buying items at their prices with the gold that came from content they can clear. And gold sinks don't exist to keep anyone in check, it's to keep the gold flow in check. We are literally printing money out of nowhere, so long as anyone and print as much as they want the economy is bound to inflate. Gold sinks exist to help take out gold from the market so that it retains value, it is not made for shorting the gap between the rich and the poor.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    /facepaw desk - If you're looking for someone to blame. Look no farther than the folks who search for new ways to hack the game (fixing and fighting this, constantly, costs money). It's funny how no one wants Nexon to make any money (in any way possible), yet they still expect tons of new content and changes. How many successful games are you aware of that run on zero budget, zero costs, free employees, and all of the imaginary features people seem to think constitutes a free to play game?

    Not even Thermonuclear War?
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,715
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    The economy is dead to me too. Only things that sell are gacha crap.
    Gacha items only selling - whales who spend thousands of their income on gachas - they make millions of gold - nothing for f2p players.
    Sure, I spend my birthday money on Mabinogi, but I don't waste it on gacha. I buy pets and the items which are guaranteed

    The rich whales just talk about spending 20m+ like its nothing
    I'm lucky I scavenged 2.6m and even then, its nothing compared to everyone else
    and it angers me how people can be so greedy
    DarkHyperShadowGreta
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
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    Sherri wrote: »
    The economy is dead to me too. Only things that sell are gacha crap.
    Gacha items only selling - whales who spend thousands of their income on gachas - they make millions of gold - nothing for f2p players.
    Sure, I spend my birthday money on Mabinogi, but I don't waste it on gacha. I buy pets and the items which are guaranteed

    The rich whales just talk about spending 20m+ like its nothing
    I'm lucky I scavenged 2.6m and even then, its nothing compared to everyone else
    and it angers me how people can be so greedy

    If you know this scene from this film.
    original.jpg
    "Greed will imprison us all."
    SherriYangKoete
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,715
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    Reading over the replies now..
    TheNyanCat wrote: »
    The reason most people can't afford most items in the game is because stronger players are inflating the market and buying items at their prices with the gold that came from content they can clear.

    This is exactly what ticks me off. Because of them, I cannot afford the simplest things.
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
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    edited October 16, 2017
    The OP's thread should be renamed to "How to kill Mabinogi economy even more". :trollface:
    Kensamaofmari
  • ArchmagickArchmagick
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
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    Actually stronger players at least in Alexina aren't buying anything - most high level players are hoarding gold for the next OP (think Halloween gacha, SAO, etc) gacha, maybe they'll buy reforges in hopes of getting a double roll. It's not VHM runners or high end players bidding up the prices of cosmetics. Its the circulation of money from past dupes/exploits/botting sprees (VHM wasn't nerfed because of players, it was nerfed because KR was so strong they could bot it). Because so much gold has been circulated due to that, there's always SOMEONE who has a massive amount of gold to drop on cosmetics.
  • HazurahHazurah
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    it is simple, really,
    i dont give a damn about cosmestic or gacha wings and tails,

    just remove anything that refer to this sentence : "CHARACTER STRENGTH AND EQUIPMENT"

    "hur dur it wont attract players to buy gacha"

    then give us something other than bullcrap gacha

    you rarely update eweca orb
    VIP service horribly outdated
    some event in korea or japan will be skipped or replaced with worse kind of event
    bugs in nearly every updated, some of them never get fixed
    big patches are half-witted (giant revamp but barely has anything to do with their homeland)
    SherriGreta
  • iMattxCiMattxC
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,075
    Posts: 64
    Member
    edited October 19, 2017
    Archmagick wrote: »
    How to fix economy

    1: make checks untradable for a 24 hour duration, then reset all gold values in banks/pets and inventory > 100m to 100m and delete all checks
    2: Allow a special limited time use of Defragmentation to turn gacha items into random checks between 100k-1m, expand Defrag table and add more useful mats
    3: Buff blacksmithing and tailoring to give significant boosts on all equipment
    4: Implement strong anti bot/macro protection, revert VHM/Conflict gold nerfs, make VIP/Daily double gold rewards
    5: Increase rare drop rates across the board for NA


    So let me get this straight, your solution is to delete people's money and then force them to buy gachas to earn money? That's a really bad idea. There is enough pay to win going on.

  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
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    edited October 19, 2017
    How to Fix the Economy
    Regulate it
    Mabinogi is an example of the negatives of a completely free market.
    Price Caps, Price Floors. Average prices. Quotas. Brokerage system.
  • ArchmagickArchmagick
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    edited October 19, 2017
    iMattxC wrote: »

    So let me get this straight, your solution is to delete people's money and then force them to buy gachas to earn money? That's a really bad idea. There is enough pay to win going on.

    1: The vast majority of players do not have over 100m in gold. This simply eliminates botted/duped gold from the economy. People who keep their money in checks would be encouraged to bank their money (or we could simply add gold to bank accounts equal to deleted checks until the bank hits 100m). This is essentially a compromise solution between the current situation and a full gold wipe.

    2: There are literally thousands of unsellable gacha items floating around in the economy, this turns them into liquidity to stimulate the economy. This is also a temporary measure.

    This actually REDUCES the influence of gacha because it pulls back the economy from revolving around whether you win the popular item from gacha.


    [/quote]