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A little too much ptw ?

Comments

  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,295
    Posts: 1,066
    Member
    edited July 26, 2018
    ShouK wrote: »
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    Bhafel slayer is a better RKA by a pretty massive amount, but the set effect on bhafel sticks it ahead of the abyss stuff by a bit as well. Same goes for langu, max roll it's better, plus the set effect does something. I'm mostly a free player as well (I spend around $30CAD a month on mabi, mostly going to service, and equip slot) and I'd say I outgear a fairly decent amount of people. It's frustrating that the attack delay is on a gacha item, but I also think of it as more a fashion thing (or something to help people catch up and get gear) Don't get me wrong, not trying to defend gacha but people are blowing this out of proportion pretty massively
    Max roll. The reason why I bolded it in the first place is it's nearly impossible to craft a max roll, given by how terrible rng rolls for magic crafts and engineering are. Didn't you sold the new abyss armor just yesterday though? I guess we have a different definition by "free player". In 2018 I only spent $10 on mabi and that's only because I bought a pet, and adoption aren't being sold during that pet sale so I can't buy it off player for a reasonable price.

    I'm pretty much done after the previous enchantable wings gacha. This newest gacha just solidifies that. I used to defend that Mabi isn't that p2w, but I change my mind. They keep releasing more power creep in gacha.

    Yeah, I sold it for 30m and it's like 20m today.
    Astoram wrote: »
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Everyone complaining about "P2W this, P2W that" just answer me this, WHO are you winning against?
    I certainly can't think of any PVE content in the game that someone has not done with a naked character. PVP? Well that one is only done by a handful of the population who are bored or want to test combos, I can't remember the last PVP event we've had.

    I'm from Mabi EU and by the time our server ended, most players didn't even have armor or just got used to doing things naked cos repair became impossible for a while if memory servers proper. For people who can't throw money to try your hands at the gachas, just think of those who try and get hit by the greed sensor and only get junk. That said at least the game gets supported when we do fork over money for gachas.

    I'm also from Mabi EU, everyone from my server were always aiming to get the "best" gear, the "best" enchants, the "best" stats. It's a game, and we're always trying to improve our characters.
    That said, if we keep getting everything shoved in gachapons, it just becomes pointless to do any content in-game, cause you can simply buy it.

    Also, highly doubt anyone had been able to do Rabbie Phantasm naked.

    Factually that's just wrong, a streamer on Alexina did just that.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,820
    Posts: 7,523
    Member
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Everyone complaining about "P2W this, P2W that" just answer me this, WHO are you winning against?
    I certainly can't think of any PVE content in the game that someone has not done with a naked character. PVP? Well that one is only done by a handful of the population who are bored or want to test combos, I can't remember the last PVP event we've had.

    I'm from Mabi EU and by the time our server ended, most players didn't even have armor or just got used to doing things naked cos repair became impossible for a while if memory serves proper. For people who can't throw money to try your hands at the gachas, just think of those who try and get hit by the greed sensor and only get junk. That said at least the game gets supported when we do fork over money for gachas.

    It is more of a psychological mindset in online games that there is something to win, such as completing the storyline or becoming the strongest player. And items that can be bought in the item shops that can enhance a player much more than normal can be considered P2W (or doping).
  • SyaohartSyaohart
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,350
    Posts: 52
    Member
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Everyone complaining about "P2W this, P2W that" just answer me this, WHO are you winning against?
    I certainly can't think of any PVE content in the game that someone has not done with a naked character. PVP? Well that one is only done by a handful of the population who are bored or want to test combos, I can't remember the last PVP event we've had.

    I'm from Mabi EU and by the time our server ended, most players didn't even have armor or just got used to doing things naked cos repair became impossible for a while if memory serves proper. For people who can't throw money to try your hands at the gachas, just think of those who try and get hit by the greed sensor and only get junk. That said at least the game gets supported when we do fork over money for gachas.

    It is more of a psychological mindset in online games that there is something to win, such as completing the storyline or becoming the strongest player. And items that can be bought in the item shops that can enhance a player much more than normal can be considered P2W (or doping).

    Suppose since I've always considered Mabi more of a PVE and not cared about the "strongest" stigma, I've not applied that mindset while playing. 乁( ̄‿ ̄;)ㄏ
    fennixfox
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited July 26, 2018
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Everyone complaining about "P2W this, P2W that" just answer me this, WHO are you winning against?
    I certainly can't think of any PVE content in the game that someone has not done with a naked character. PVP? Well that one is only done by a handful of the population who are bored or want to test combos, I can't remember the last PVP event we've had.

    I'm from Mabi EU and by the time our server ended, most players didn't even have armor or just got used to doing things naked cos repair became impossible for a while if memory serves proper. For people who can't throw money to try your hands at the gachas, just think of those who try and get hit by the greed sensor and only get junk. That said at least the game gets supported when we do fork over money for gachas.

    It is more of a psychological mindset in online games that there is something to win, such as completing the storyline or becoming the strongest player. And items that can be bought in the item shops that can enhance a player much more than normal can be considered P2W (or doping).

    Suppose since I've always considered Mabi more of a PVE and not cared about the "strongest" stigma, I've not applied that mindset while playing. 乁( ̄‿ ̄;)ㄏ

    While the term may be argued, the idea that Mabinogi is dying as an actual game seems to be the new reality. In essence, one may be paying to win against the game, and one may argue they have the choice. Yet, when content is locked behind paywalls instead of being debuted in a new game update, and they decide to eschew the idea of continuous progression and activity to cater to this type of player with this sort of practice, it affects everyone.

    It is something I rather not have in game, and why I haven't bought certain gachapons, such as Beauty boxes. In short, only or mostly putting content behind paywalls kills an MMORPG as an MMORPG, and that should be upsetting to people who want more content, both of high quality and accessibility.
    JazmynXafnirLialin
  • PolicromaPolicroma
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,055
    Posts: 511
    Member
    edited July 26, 2018
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Suppose since I've always considered Mabi more of a PVE and not cared about the "strongest" stigma, I've not applied that mindset while playing. 乁( ̄‿ ̄;)ㄏ

    The "keeping up with the Jones" crap has been bugging me for years. When I see one of these threads, the first thing to enter my mind is... what content can you not do with the stuff that was already in-game?

    I mean, sure, yeah, the crazy armor of doom would be nice to have, but do I *need* it? I mean, what race am I winning by using it? It's a luxury to make harder content somewhat easier. It doesn't replace skill, or the bragging rights people have gotten by doing said content without.

    If you really want the extra prot, wait until those new swappable skills come out. Those are free. Oh, wait...some random joe will have the swappable skill AND the armor and is thus "better" than you? *sigh*

    The new armor is an ultimately unnecessary luxury. It says "I have better luck or more gold than you", and nothing more.
    VeylaineBuffalosSebastianGakkuriaquaRadiant DawnImaizumiAlshianBronzebreakMizukiHayamafennixfoxand 8 others.
  • SebastianSebastian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,520
    Posts: 436
    Member
    edited July 26, 2018
    Policroma wrote: »
    The "keeping up with the Jones" crap has been bugging me for years. When I see one of these threads, the first thing to enter my mind is... what content can you not do with the stuff that was already in-game?

    Haven't you heard? This fashion lets you instantly complete ANY dungeon 9dnGeIh.png
    MizukiHayama
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,765
    Posts: 7,467
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    When people realize you can't upgrade it they will understand it's only a SLIGHTLY better than whats available or possible. In fact the price is coming down quick due to this realization. Plus no one wants to go back to reforge or enchanting hell again. I sure won't.
    fennixfox
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited July 27, 2018
    Policroma wrote: »
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Suppose since I've always considered Mabi more of a PVE and not cared about the "strongest" stigma, I've not applied that mindset while playing. 乁( ̄‿ ̄;)ㄏ

    The "keeping up with the Jones" crap has been bugging me for years. When I see one of these threads, the first thing to enter my mind is... what content can you not do with the stuff that was already in-game?

    I mean, sure, yeah, the crazy armor of doom would be nice to have, but do I *need* it? I mean, what race am I winning by using it? It's a luxury to make harder content somewhat easier. It doesn't replace skill, or the bragging rights people have gotten by doing said content without.

    If you really want the extra prot, wait until those new swappable skills come out. Those are free. Oh, wait...some random joe will have the swappable skill AND the armor and is thus "better" than you? *sigh*

    The new armor is an ultimately unnecessary luxury. It says "I have better luck or more gold than you", and nothing more.

    *Watches as everyone ignores my post*

    I dislike the social attitude one has to keep up with the Joneses, but come on. Having Nexon release this as a Gachapon item as it did with many others. The problem isn't that this gives merely an advantage over other players; it is Nexon straight up selling power, and the type of game it creates where what limits resources in development are directly solely towards this end.

    People shouldn't pay to win, they should play to win. This is a practice that nullified Potion Making, Tailoring, Blacksmithing, seals, all that. One could vouch that if one could tailor, they could, but it is different from using a talent like fighter that is viable enough but not as, versus a skill that hasn't been updated in years being rendered redundant and useless.

    For me, fighter is a fun combat skill. It may not do as much DPS as my other ones, but I like it well enough to use it. I cannot say the same of tailoring, whose broken system not only makes using the skill set tedious, but makes the idea of subsisting as a life skiller unviable, which is where some of us would have had fun. :(

    Let us all stop and consider what the issue here should be.
    BronzebreakdeepdrakeTwelieXafnirSherriLialin
  • SyaohartSyaohart
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,350
    Posts: 52
    Member
    edited July 27, 2018
    People shouldn't pay to win, they should play to win.
    Personally I don't consider gachas as direct P2W, but rather pay-for-a-small-chance-to-win-maybe-after-you-throw-a-few-hundred-at-it from personal experience and not willing to do that anymore. Now if they ever go and sell game breaking gear directly in the shop, then I would happily organize a riot. Similar case to anything that exists, one can just not acknowledge the existence of these items and keep playing how they wish.

    Sad fact is that people are getting spoiled by the current free-to-play market, so much that they consider themselves entitled to whatever content the game has to offer and complain when they can't get it for free. They forget that free-to-play games are still a business and needs to hit a certain revenue threshold for upkeep. Sometimes they need to add items like these as an incentive for those who need a reason to support the game.

    The moment games stopped with the buy/sub method and went free, the P2W stigma reared its ugly head even more. Really just can't win with humanity. (oT-T)尸
    MizukiHayamaCDMarilTheDumbOneRadiant DawnLialin
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 48,765
    Posts: 7,467
    Member
    Policroma wrote: »
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Suppose since I've always considered Mabi more of a PVE and not cared about the "strongest" stigma, I've not applied that mindset while playing. 乁( ̄‿ ̄;)ㄏ

    The "keeping up with the Jones" crap has been bugging me for years. When I see one of these threads, the first thing to enter my mind is... what content can you not do with the stuff that was already in-game?

    I mean, sure, yeah, the crazy armor of doom would be nice to have, but do I *need* it? I mean, what race am I winning by using it? It's a luxury to make harder content somewhat easier. It doesn't replace skill, or the bragging rights people have gotten by doing said content without.

    If you really want the extra prot, wait until those new swappable skills come out. Those are free. Oh, wait...some random joe will have the swappable skill AND the armor and is thus "better" than you? *sigh*

    The new armor is an ultimately unnecessary luxury. It says "I have better luck or more gold than you", and nothing more.

    *Watches as everyone ignores my post*

    I dislike the social attitude one has to keep up with the Joneses, but come on. Having Nexon release this as a Gachapon item as it did with many others. The problem isn't that this gives merely an advantage over other players; it is Nexon straight up selling power, and the type of game it creates where what limits resources in development are directly solely towards this end.

    People shouldn't pay to win, they should play to win. This is a practice that nullified Potion Making, Tailoring, Blacksmithing, seals, all that. One could vouch that if one could tailor, they could, but it is different from using a talent like fighter that is viable enough but not as, versus a skill that hasn't been updated in years being rendered redundant and useless.

    For me, fighter is a fun combat skill. It may not do as much DPS as my other ones, but I like it well enough to use it. I cannot say the same of tailoring, whose broken system not only makes using the skill set tedious, but makes the idea of subsisting as a life skiller unviable, which is where some of us would have had fun. :(

    Let us all stop and consider what the issue here should be.

    *ignores your post*
    BlissfulkillRadiant DawnSebastianLialin
  • TheDumbOneTheDumbOne
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,790
    Posts: 342
    Member
    Astoram wrote: »
    Syaohart wrote: »
    Everyone complaining about "P2W this, P2W that" just answer me this, WHO are you winning against?
    I certainly can't think of any PVE content in the game that someone has not done with a naked character. PVP? Well that one is only done by a handful of the population who are bored or want to test combos, I can't remember the last PVP event we've had.

    I'm from Mabi EU and by the time our server ended, most players didn't even have armor or just got used to doing things naked cos repair became impossible for a while if memory servers proper. For people who can't throw money to try your hands at the gachas, just think of those who try and get hit by the greed sensor and only get junk. That said at least the game gets supported when we do fork over money for gachas.

    I'm also from Mabi EU, everyone from my server were always aiming to get the "best" gear, the "best" enchants, the "best" stats. It's a game, and we're always trying to improve our characters.
    That said, if we keep getting everything shoved in gachapons, it just becomes pointless to do any content in-game, cause you can simply buy it.

    Also, highly doubt anyone had been able to do Rabbie Phantasm naked.

    "supported?" - if this game was decently supported, then the pay system would have more options then gachas. I dont buy gachas....i'm not even shy to buy stuff from the game.... i just wont buy gachas/reforges/dyes/w/e random. Gachas are fun..... when you have the option to not choose it for EVERY FORM OF PAYMENT.- the game not looking for support... its looking for suckers who pay 70+ dollars for a digital horse.
    When you have to constantly rely on a payment system that has a high chance of the buyer getting nothing from a exchanged purchase, AND bring out re-used afk events when theirs PLENTY of new stuff in kr to transfer over.(for months)- then that not at all "support" thats a cash cow.

    I swear the money goes to kr new 1,000 dollar computer set giveaways and creating new "mabinogi 2" throw-a-way games, then actually trying to make this game better.
    (but thats just my strong opinion)
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    edited July 27, 2018
    Syaohart wrote: »
    People shouldn't pay to win, they should play to win.
    Personally I don't consider gachas as direct P2W, but rather pay-for-a-small-chance-to-win-maybe-after-you-throw-a-few-hundred-at-it from personal experience and not willing to do that anymore. Now if they ever go and sell game breaking gear directly in the shop, then I would happily organize a riot. Similar case to anything that exists, one can just not acknowledge the existence of these items and keep playing how they wish.

    Sad fact is that people are getting spoiled by the current free-to-play market, so much that they consider themselves entitled to whatever content the game has to offer and complain when they can't get it for free. They forget that free-to-play games are still a business and needs to hit a certain revenue threshold for upkeep. Sometimes they need to add items like these as an incentive for those who need a reason to support the game.

    The moment games stopped with the buy/sub method and went free, the P2W stigma reared its ugly head even more. Really just can't win with humanity. (oT-T)尸

    When Gachapons become the source of new and more powerful items (And items in general), it is an issue whatever name you wish to confer on it. Or rather, the approach. When you eschew one over the other, it suffers. Games are one part art, one half business. Emphasize the business too much, and one fails to have anything resembling a creative output.

    The low RNG rates make it even worse, yet I wouldn't mind if the cosmetic approach was enforced (And it has proven to be profitable, as my shameful spending can prove.)

    Which is essentially my point. Do not neglect content to push forth the cash shop. Several games are known to have died in this process (Aeria Games, for the most part?), and the reason why is the concept of shovelware and short term quick profit.
    Soll
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,580
    Posts: 943
    Member
    All the salt over something that doesn't matter.
    Like I said before you're still gonna die in 1-3 hits with or with out the armour.
    Its just a fashion set with "stats" added onto to bait you into thinking you need it.
    And tbh its seems to be working with all these people screaming thats its p2w when meanwhile its utterly pointless.

    Don't believe me?
    Just go look in that "nerf g21 thread"
    Its full of people crying that Tagar hits for 1k and can 1-2 hit them regardless of what they do.
    Yet they never thought of using mana shield
    It's laughable to read all this salt from things that remove maybe like 100 damage at most.
    Meanwhile you're getting hit for 1k anyway. Oh boy that 100 damage is totally gonna save you from getting two shot.
    Not
    Have fun crying over this set that went from 50mil to like 20mil in like two days lmao
    But i guess people are too weak or lazy to farm SMs to get the armour set with in the next week or two.
    :^)
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,450
    Posts: 167
    Member, Volunteer Forum Moderator
    edited July 27, 2018
    Avenger/Fierce/Allegro/Haunted/Spooky/Eerie accessories, 67th/38th/Meteoroid weapon enchants, Transformation/Dorcha/Deathmark/Elf Smash/Movement speed/Attack Delay/&more set effects, ROBE SLOT ENCHANTS.

    All these things are gacha only things that should have never been that way. Special Eiren should be a craftable item, why should we alienate people who want a death mark boost, something that has become the part of some meta damage comps. Why should we tolerate enchanted accessories that are TRIPLE the power of what you can farm in game. Why should the best in slot enchants for 1h,2h, and piercing weapons come from a non in game source. Why should we be locking all these set effects behind a pay wall. It's not about farming in game money an buying LIMITED TIME items, it's about playing the game to progress in the game. Here we are talking about this armor, which to be fair is probably one of the least egregious items I listed in the initial line, but it's not JUST about the armor, it's about the principle of now having power in gachapons.

    As for those who say that this game isn't PvP so it can't be P2W, sure you can't directly win against someone like you can in the likes of WoW, Eve, Albion Online ect., but you can increase your gold making, dungeon clear times, shadow missions clear times, and top the contribution charts for raids much easier. Just because we don't have PvP doesn't mean we don't have the means to be competitive in a mainly PvE game.

    Gachapons are done best when it's appearance scrolls, fancy wings, tails, ears that wiggle, new animations, transformation medals, and outfit that scream Fa-Bu-LOUS. These wont effect game play and still generate revenue. Of course, nexon has learned that those of us who could care less about the newest wing will drop $1000 trying to get a max roll icarus.

    Big Edit : I forgot how the best 2nd titles in game are all gacha.
    LiberateApollodorusXafnirShouKTheDumbOneSherriTwelieLialin
  • ZephyrmaruZephyrmaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,430
    Posts: 139
    Member
    edited July 27, 2018
    This armor is definitely P2W, because it by definition gives you the strongest current armor in the game by doing nothing other than $$$. For the first 5 minutes after seeing those armor stats, I was absolutely livid with how stupid it was.

    After the first 5 minutes though, you can kinda get over it. Not only is it somewhat easy to get close to those stats with a 4mil RKA, but the armor just looks stupid lol. Bhafel and Langu are at bare minimum still used in erg 45s, so that craft was never a waste at least. And as someone said, g22 is going to negate the armor tanking somewhat. In Otter Form, I already have too much prot, so for a person like me who's literal only good quality is tankiness to "Ehh" it, its not that special.

    This isn't an opinion either, because Alexina's market is reflecting it right now. Prices have pluuuuummeted hard on them once people started realizing they're throwing away tons of money for a measely few prot when they could've rolled the Sandstorm box more for 8 max atk Altam chance instead. I saw a few people dump $300+ at this gacha because "If you don't have this armor you're not endgame", and while all power to them for doing it and funding the game, $300+ could've gotten you so much more than a couple of defense points. If this is as far as p2w goes in our current gachas, I'm not worried. But don't make this a trend, Nexon.

    Also, LOL at anyone who says the game's dying when they rolled for the gacha and didn't get it. If the game was dying you wouldn't have rolled. That's just salt, sorry.
    CrimsọnSherri
  • deepdrakedeepdrake
    Mabinogi Rep: 330
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    I think Astoram perfectly summed up what I wanted to say. Which is if you keep shoving stronger and stronger gear in gachapon whats the point in running dungeons and going through the hassle of enchanting when you have easy access to per-enchanted rank 1 reforged gear with stats on pair with that of some of the hardest armor to make and one of a kind set effects. I think you guys miss the point of it not being the best potential armor but it being good enough make most thing are obsolete. The power creep will just keep on going till they will start handout better and better gear items in gachapons and adding less and less content in-game that will be worth doing.
    Sherri
  • deepdrakedeepdrake
    Mabinogi Rep: 330
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    .
    ShouK wrote: »
    Everytime I try to catch up to end game gears, they release more p2w items....as someone who’s mostly f2p it’s pretty much impossible to get enough gold to buy all these items.
    Finally started making a buff/damage armor set and then this gach comes out after spend a lot of gold/time farming materials and then crafting and enchanting armor.

    Sherri
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 32,820
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    Well at least there's no threads and arguments about P2L
    Crimsọn
  • PolicromaPolicroma
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,055
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    deepdrake wrote: »
    I think Astoram perfectly summed up what I wanted to say. Which is if you keep shoving stronger and stronger gear in gachapon whats the point in running dungeons and going through the hassle of enchanting when you have easy access to per-enchanted rank 1 reforged gear with stats on pair with that of some of the hardest armor to make and one of a kind set effects. I think you guys miss the point of it not being the best potential armor but it being good enough make most thing are obsolete. The power creep will just keep on going till they will start handout better and better gear items in gachapons and adding less and less content in-game that will be worth doing.

    Problem is, most people who get that in gacha aren't going to keep it, but resell it. And the kind of people who need to buy something like that with gold usually have to *gasp* play the game to get it.

    As far as power creep goes, if you're that worried, why are we wasting time with a couple extra prot? There's an update coming that gives a large number of swappable skills, and a great deal of extra prot is one of them, along with a pierce buff, heavy stander, an auto rez, a skill that lets you reset cooldown on something over and over again, a double attack proc, YET ANOTHER AIMING SPEED BUFF, etc.
    ZephyrmaruCDMaril
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
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    Policroma wrote: »
    deepdrake wrote: »
    I think Astoram perfectly summed up what I wanted to say. Which is if you keep shoving stronger and stronger gear in gachapon whats the point in running dungeons and going through the hassle of enchanting when you have easy access to per-enchanted rank 1 reforged gear with stats on pair with that of some of the hardest armor to make and one of a kind set effects. I think you guys miss the point of it not being the best potential armor but it being good enough make most thing are obsolete. The power creep will just keep on going till they will start handout better and better gear items in gachapons and adding less and less content in-game that will be worth doing.

    Problem is, most people who get that in gacha aren't going to keep it, but resell it. And the kind of people who need to buy something like that with gold usually have to *gasp* play the game to get it.

    As far as power creep goes, if you're that worried, why are we wasting time with a couple extra prot? There's an update coming that gives a large number of swappable skills, and a great deal of extra prot is one of them, along with a pierce buff, heavy stander, an auto rez, a skill that lets you reset cooldown on something over and over again, a double attack proc, YET ANOTHER AIMING SPEED BUFF, etc.

    Gold grind is boring; if everything from here on out becomes the acquisition of gold dependent on the spending habits of other, that is both unstable and an especially monotonous game design.

    You are correct though, this armour is nothing special, not compared to accessories.