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The Elf Revamp, Yes I said it.

Comments

  • PolicromaPolicroma
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,615
    Posts: 559
    Member
    edited November 5, 2017

    I interpret your argument to be arguing against the notion that the skillset is broken or cannot be used. That isn't the idea I am pushing here. I am claiming that the skill set is obsolete due to better options that do not rely on shot of god or reforges.

    But this is precisely what i am arguing against. There is quite a bit you can do, in-game, to bring up the damage of archery, without reforges OR latency. This is also keeping in mind that the vast majority of other skillsets *do* require reforges to get the damage that people claim archery "needs".
    My claim is based on the idea that the damage is horrible without shot of god. With it, I imagine it can be quite great, but without, it isn't at all powerful compared to bashing an enemy to death, or the older method of chaincasted firebolts.

    Although Light of Ladeca is considerable. I have totally forgotten about that.

    What do we perceive as horrible? 5k to 10k depending on crit or not? What's the average hitpoints of any elite-level enemy in a shadow mission? Most can be 1-shot with no reforges (or even particularly good gear) required.

    Also, there's a specific reason I brought up speed boosts. Just getting a speed-enchancement set of any kind will greatly increase aim speed. No reforges required.

    So when you're 1-shotting monsters at superfast speeds from a distance, where aggro doesn't reach you, regardless of latency or skill, what's the problem?

    When you can pick off enemies one at a time, hitting the rest with AoE damage (mirage and crash shot), without the entire group aggroing you, what's the problem?

    When you can kite world bosses without endgame gear, what's the problem?

    The "problem" is that people feel insecure when there's a human teleporting all over the place with final hit. Archery isn't designed to act this way. It's intended to be the support class, with support shot and mirage missile, which assists those darn heroic humans in being better than everybody else. ;)

    When I talk about archery, I don't talk about it in the "can you do it" sense? I save the "can you do it" question for my Chef's Passion. (My bizarre elf hobby.) Archery isn't just viable, and it certainly isn't obsolete. It's sneaky. It's tactics based. If you have tactics, then you can tackle enemies and situations you'd otherwise be outgunned for, regardless of your DPS.

    That's why it's considered OP to the point that Nexon doesn't seem to feel the need to change it beyond minor tweaks. If you want to do beyond 5k to 10k damage in any skillset other than magic, you're looking at endgame gear. Regardless of the skillset used, that's going to be a lot of gold whether you reforge or not. Then throw in enchants (especially for those lance users), red-ups (extremely expensive if you plan to r7 *anything*), CRKs (expensive if you want max damage, and you have to red-up TWICE) and you have a hefty gold requirement for anything one might consider "endgame".
    That being said, I am researching the idea of VPNs, which I never looked to, but quite honestly, my inexperienced mind does not comprehend VPNs. Wouldn't the internet speed be a major factor, and one regarding a fixed distance? Not quite sure.

    Whenever you make a connection on the internet, that connection has to make a certain number of "hops" to get to the destination. (Open command prompt in windows and try to "tracert" pretty much any major website.) A VPN gives you a more direct connection without as many middlemen in the way. It's a good help for issues with distance, because while you can't change the distance the data has to go, you can change how many servers it has to hop over.

    Try changing to a higher channel before even looking into VPNs, as no VPN will "fix" market channel. Market channel is slower not because of your internet connection, and not even entirely because of the number of characters on screen, but because the server is simultaneously processing a lot more players at a time. Everything will react slower, and I do mean everything. I realize people loathe to leave it, but market channels should be saved for selling and socializing.

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,130
    Posts: 2,781
    Member
    Policroma wrote: »

    I interpret your argument to be arguing against the notion that the skillset is broken or cannot be used. That isn't the idea I am pushing here. I am claiming that the skill set is obsolete due to better options that do not rely on shot of god or reforges.

    But this is precisely what i am arguing against. There is quite a bit you can do, in-game, to bring up the damage of archery, without reforges OR latency. This is also keeping in mind that the vast majority of other skillsets *do* require reforges to get the damage that people claim archery "needs".
    My claim is based on the idea that the damage is horrible without shot of god. With it, I imagine it can be quite great, but without, it isn't at all powerful compared to bashing an enemy to death, or the older method of chaincasted firebolts.

    Although Light of Ladeca is considerable. I have totally forgotten about that.

    What do we perceive as horrible? 5k to 10k depending on crit or not? What's the average hitpoints of any elite-level enemy in a shadow mission? Most can be 1-shot with no reforges (or even particularly good gear) required.

    Also, there's a specific reason I brought up speed boosts. Just getting a speed-enchancement set of any kind will greatly increase aim speed. No reforges required.

    So when you're 1-shotting monsters at superfast speeds from a distance, where aggro doesn't reach you, regardless of latency or skill, what's the problem?

    When you can pick off enemies one at a time, hitting the rest with AoE damage (mirage and crash shot), without the entire group aggroing you, what's the problem?

    When you can kite world bosses without endgame gear, what's the problem?

    The "problem" is that people feel insecure when there's a human teleporting all over the place with final hit. Archery isn't designed to act this way. It's intended to be the support class, with support shot and mirage missile, which assists those darn heroic humans in being better than everybody else. ;)

    When I talk about archery, I don't talk about it in the "can you do it" sense? I save the "can you do it" question for my Chef's Passion. (My bizarre elf hobby.) Archery isn't just viable, and it certainly isn't obsolete. It's sneaky. It's tactics based. If you have tactics, then you can tackle enemies and situations you'd otherwise be outgunned for, regardless of your DPS.

    That's why it's considered OP to the point that Nexon doesn't seem to feel the need to change it beyond minor tweaks. If you want to do beyond 5k to 10k damage in any skillset other than magic, you're looking at endgame gear. Regardless of the skillset used, that's going to be a lot of gold whether you reforge or not. Then throw in enchants (especially for those lance users), red-ups (extremely expensive if you plan to r7 *anything*), CRKs (expensive if you want max damage, and you have to red-up TWICE) and you have a hefty gold requirement for anything one might consider "endgame".
    That being said, I am researching the idea of VPNs, which I never looked to, but quite honestly, my inexperienced mind does not comprehend VPNs. Wouldn't the internet speed be a major factor, and one regarding a fixed distance? Not quite sure.

    Whenever you make a connection on the internet, that connection has to make a certain number of "hops" to get to the destination. (Open command prompt in windows and try to "tracert" pretty much any major website.) A VPN gives you a more direct connection without as many middlemen in the way. It's a good help for issues with distance, because while you can't change the distance the data has to go, you can change how many servers it has to hop over.

    Try changing to a higher channel before even looking into VPNs, as no VPN will "fix" market channel. Market channel is slower not because of your internet connection, and not even entirely because of the number of characters on screen, but because the server is simultaneously processing a lot more players at a time. Everything will react slower, and I do mean everything. I realize people loathe to leave it, but market channels should be saved for selling and socializing.

    Oh, then we play archery the same way. I feel that strangely, things like lullaby nullify the need for picking off silently, and in fact, when magnums fail to kill, they awaken enemies with severe splash damage.

    In terms of damage, they often do around 7k-9k to me when I equip trash bows, but at this state, I am certainly not one shotting many elite enemies that aren't archers or wizards in that form. Although, to be fair, with Light of Ladeca, it doesn't matter if you can pull another magnum in a quarter of the time normally.

    I may take issue with this quote though.
    So when you're 1-shotting monsters at superfast speeds from a distance, where aggro doesn't reach you, regardless of latency or skill, what's the problem?

    When you can pick off enemies one at a time, hitting the rest with AoE damage (mirage and crash shot), without the entire group aggroing you, what's the problem?

    When you can kite world bosses without endgame gear, what's the problem?

    Hopefully I am not interpreting it out of context, but if the damage per shot is low, then wouldn't the problem be that one cannot one shot monsters? Unless we are talking Final Shot and Or Ladeca, which would be more appropriate, now that I think about it. Besides this, the introduction of lengthy stuns, such as lullaby, do in fact benefit archery, but the usage of these skills merely turns it into a DPS fest, which archery is usually inferior, depending on the issues of knock back and distance. In any other case, I fail to see how picking it off works with how the toughest mobs usually have the highest aggro range and aggro number.

    Hence, why I consider archery to be a single target high DPS talent, more than anything. Its crowd control isn't the best without the usage of other talents, but that perhaps is intended. Things like Crash shot only put the archer in danger at certain levels of damage, if but to awaken enemies who are not sufficiently weakened.

    I also feel you're misunderstood why it is considered OP, due to the massively high damage applications making up for its aged mechanics.

    Past a certain point, I do agree there is a great deal of "greenery on the other side" with final hit.

    As for the market channel, it is not quite feasible unless I am the party leader, but this can perhaps be remedied on a guild run, or nice people. I cannot expect strangers to inconveniently change channels just so I can use a certain talent.

    You know, oddly enough, I always found movement to be weird, so perhaps I will try that VPN. In tight spaces, I often "lag" backwards, that can only be assuaged by clicking on the destination or on the mini map.

  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
    Posts: 315
    Member
    edited November 6, 2017
    Can't support well if everything is already dead by the time you finish aiming for at least 50% and you have to retarget. Vision of ladeca is great, but not permanent, nor is final shot, so we have to stop and consider archery gameplay without them for a moment. If you're not FHing, you're bashing, there's essentially no delay between damage waves.

    Knockback and damage are literally the only things magnum has and it is outclassed by most other skills that do the same, particularly in the department of how fast you can get the skill off and kill stuff before an archer can even shoot.
    Even with capped dex and a crash shot reforge for 3 additional targets crash shot isn't lethal without a crit most of the time, so usually it actually works against the whole party if you wake everything up.

    Mirage missile's AoE isn't large enough to spread through the entire room most of the time due to enemy placement.
    Support shot is unnecessary because FH And bash kill most things so fast you wouldn't even be able to shoot it before it's dead.

    Taking these things into consideration, party play as an archer (solo viability aside , which obviously shouldn't be needed because you say it's a support talent, right?), I'd say it's pretty damn bad. Essentially, archery is magnum shot with aside of urgent shot..and even that doesn't work very well without effective range 20, vision of ladeca, final shot, a combination or all of them at once, because of the low aim speed even with wing bows.

    When literally everything in this game is about killing or being killed first, because the tactics in this game that we're supposed to have have been dumbed down to this on literally almost every piece of content with the sole exception of positioning and not waking things up too early, how is being support any viable? Look at cleric, it's just radiating usefulness.

    If one took away from the reforges' usefulness and instead boosted the archery skills to the same effect, particularly effective range, things would already look a lot better for standard, non-endgame archers - hence why I usually complain about reforges and probably a lot of other people too. You're saying it's not necessary, but I'm still very unconvinced.

    Games tend to be very unfun if you feel like you're just deadweight, especially if it's in a game that tells you that you can be anything you want and still be useful.
  • ToonToon
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,460
    Posts: 37
    Member
    edited November 6, 2017
    I'm sorry but this post and almost all the comments are the epitome of stupidity towards this game. Literally almost every single one of the comments are wrong. And this just seems to be a trend in this forum. I'm honestly curious, how many of you still play the game, vs how many of you have quit? I'm not going to point fingers and I'm not going to tell you what is wrong since that obviously doesn't work, I'm just going to post two video examples, one of Phantasm and one of Alby, so that you have ele content and phantasm as examples. and This is how elves are played, and don't go saying bla bla other region, since they are in the same patch as ours. In fact they have even less damage, since no creepy haunted. Elves are the best race, followed by humans and then giants. The reason humans are above giants is because giants lack an efficient bossing tool, and they lack crash shot. Archery is the strongest skillset in almost all content of the game, only being weaker to blaze in phantasm and ice spear in alban. And even humans use archery and crash shot, good ones at least. I'll get you a video of that as well. http://kukulu.erinn.biz/live.php?action=viewTimeshift&hash=8279673&wmvto=&firstseek= . So please, if you do not know what you're speaking of, just don't. It is really cringy reading all this and imo it's why NA is the fashion region, and is so far behind compared to the other regions, despite having more damage potential.

    If you're concerned about shadow missions, which seems to be the only content you run, there's wiz HM run on the youtube channel.
    NilremSherriPolicromaShouKHellkaizer
  • scorpin99scorpin99
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,080
    Posts: 22
    Member
    Toon wrote: »
    I'm sorry but this post and almost all the comments are the epitome of stupidity towards this game. Literally almost every single one of the comments are wrong. And this just seems to be a trend in this forum. I'm honestly curious, how many of you still play the game, vs how many of you have quit? I'm not going to point fingers and I'm not going to tell you what is wrong since that obviously doesn't work, I'm just going to post two video examples, one of Phantasm and one of Alby, so that you have ele content and phantasm as examples. and This is how elves are played, and don't go saying bla bla other region, since they are in the same patch as ours. In fact they have even less damage, since no creepy haunted. Elves are the best race, followed by humans and then giants. The reason humans are above giants is because giants lack an efficient bossing tool, and they lack crash shot. Archery is the strongest skillset in almost all content of the game, only being weaker to blaze in phantasm and ice spear in alban. And even humans use archery and crash shot, good ones at least. I'll get you a video of that as well. http://kukulu.erinn.biz/live.php?action=viewTimeshift&hash=8279673&wmvto=&firstseek= . So please, if you do not know what you're speaking of, just don't. It is really cringy reading all this and imo it's why NA is the fashion region, and is so far behind compared to the other regions, despite having more damage potential.

    If you're concerned about shadow missions, which seems to be the only content you run, there's wiz HM run on the youtube channel.

    So what you're saying is we have to shill out money out the end for over 10 bone dragons and tons of reforges to be able to easily clear content? Because what I see is someone who has tons of reforges and tons of pets to spam while they load up their skills. That isn't what the argument is about. Yea they clear it really easy, but that's in KOREA where latency basically doesn't exist.

    The point I see with this thread is to make archery viable WITHOUT reforges and without having to spend tons of money for pets for def/prot reduction in order to do enough damage to reliably solo content. Archery basically went unchanged throughout its existence. Case in point: Final shot, it used to reduce archery skill load times but after Genesis got rid of skill load times that part of final shot became useless. Add on to the fact that it still has load times and it became a glorified aim speed boost

    Then there is the fact that aiming is still a thing, other than the flat luck chance to miss, archery is the ONLY talent left that can even miss. People are arguing that archery should be able to clear content reliably without needing to get all these reforges and pets to clear content. its a slow talent and if you try and go into groups while maining archery, most people won't take you because they want fast clear times, and by the time you have one shot off 90% of the room is dead or just the room is cleared.

    Coming from playing since 2009, archery used to be viable with just stats and a decent bow. you didn't need to spend so much gold/money to be able to clear content with archery, but now it seems like its necessary or else you just lag behind. That's dumb and people have been trying to get that fixed for ages now. and just because you can clear content with it does not mean it isn't broken and needs to be fixed. i bet you at least 80% of archers wont be able to do the things in the videos you sent because getting the gold and pets and reforges is too tall an order for them.
    KagaSiodhan
  • NilremNilrem
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,880
    Posts: 465
    Member
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    So what you're saying is we have to shill out money out the end for over 10 bone dragons and tons of reforges to be able to easily clear content? Because what I see is someone who has tons of reforges and tons of pets to spam while they load up their skills.

    Look, when you reach endgame or even close to it, earning gold is easy. Literally all those pets and reforges you mentioned can just be bought with gold earned from playing the game. Also good observation. Almost like a large portion of endgame players have reforges, or better yet, a large portion of solo runs use pet summons.
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Yea they clear it really easy, but that's in KOREA where latency basically doesn't exist.

    I know this is just a nitpick, but come on. The video title even says JP. As in Japan. It was even hinted at in his post.
    And don't act like it isn't easy here either. There is a reason most phantasm breakers are elves.
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    The point I see with this thread is to make archery viable WITHOUT reforges and without having to spend tons of money for pets for def/prot reduction in order to do enough damage to reliably solo content. Archery basically went unchanged throughout its existence. Case in point: Final shot, it used to reduce archery skill load times but after Genesis got rid of skill load times that part of final shot became useless. Add on to the fact that it still has load times and it became a glorified aim speed boost

    How to make Archery viable without reforges: 1k+ dex, black dragon knight bow. There, now you can be the pretty little reforge free archer you want everywhere outside endgame dungeons.

    And then when it becomes time for you to actually do difficult things, you too will likely have gold for reforges and use them to increase damage once you run out of ways to get stronger.

    Also, are you really complaining about Final Shot being an aim speed boost? Because well...
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Then there is the fact that aiming is still a thing, other than the flat luck chance to miss, archery is the ONLY talent left that can even miss. People are arguing that archery should be able to clear content reliably without needing to get all these reforges and pets to clear content. its a slow talent and if you try and go into groups while maining archery, most people won't take you because they want fast clear times, and by the time you have one shot off 90% of the room is dead or just the room is cleared.

    You could solve your aiming issue with final shot but....heh.
    Also a lot of actual high end archery just rapid fires at the start of aiming. Nice little trick mentioned in this thread already.

    Also, last I checked, there is an ENTIRE ARCHERY SKILL meant to be used when you miss. So you can still hit your target.
    AND it knocks them back, making it easier to continue pelting them with death.

    Also really? Clear times are what you think people worry about? What kind of bad player actually cares about...
    Look, if being the special room clearing snowflake is what matters to you, just don't walk into the same "room" as someone else.
    Or just go solo. Or understand that archery has support skills that aid other people and to actually work with someone.
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Coming from playing since 2009, archery used to be viable with just stats and a decent bow. you didn't need to spend so much gold/money to be able to clear content with archery, but now it seems like its necessary or else you just lag behind. That's dumb and people have been trying to get that fixed for ages now. and just because you can clear content with it does not mean it isn't broken and needs to be fixed. i bet you at least 80% of archers wont be able to do the things in the videos you sent because getting the gold and pets and reforges is too tall an order for them.

    Wow, its like amazing crafted bows, enchants, and getting every life skill in the game to Rank 1 without any training bonuses was not a thing!
    Its also like content back then did not have enemies that were a total joke.

    Also "lag behind"? Really? Do you just stare at humans doing final hit and wish you were them when final hit requires just as many, if not MORE reforges than archery?

    And no, archery is broken. Well, elf archery anyway. Crystal Deer Archery causing the easiest solo phantasm runs is what counts as BROKEN.

    And yeah, 80% of archers won't do such. In fact, most archers don't even see the gold/reforge barrier early on. Thats the 80%.
    Once they see it, they either A: Switch to a diff talent B: Go earn gold needed or C: Switch talent AND get gold needed.
    You can say the same thing for literally any combat talent in the game.
    Because just about every talent has the same chances in Solo Phantasm, or in some cases, next to no chance.
    SherriPolicromaShouK
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,130
    Posts: 2,781
    Member
    edited November 6, 2017
    To be fair, this seems more like the problem with content if it requires expensive resources, or pet spam. This is talking about a content where no one in NA has managed to craft a darn Soluna blade. (Apparently, the Soluna Blade overseas cost like a few thousand in real currency by a determined player)

    Also, it may fare better to be nice to each other. :( Let us be friends, or friendly.

    Edit: Not that it is necessary, but just saying that the game design isn't limited to the character as much as the combat.
  • LunarZeroLunarZero
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,435
    Posts: 69
    Member
    I think elves should be able to duel wield scimitars. They ARE an elf-only weapon, so why not?
    Sherri
  • ObsimObsim
    Mabinogi Rep: 910
    Posts: 42
    Member
    Toon wrote: »
    I'm sorry but this post and almost all the comments are the epitome of stupidity towards this game. Literally almost every single one of the comments are wrong. And this just seems to be a trend in this forum. I'm honestly curious, how many of you still play the game, vs how many of you have quit? I'm not going to point fingers and I'm not going to tell you what is wrong since that obviously doesn't work, I'm just going to post two video examples, one of Phantasm and one of Alby, so that you have ele content and phantasm as examples. and This is how elves are played, and don't go saying bla bla other region, since they are in the same patch as ours. In fact they have even less damage, since no creepy haunted. Elves are the best race, followed by humans and then giants. The reason humans are above giants is because giants lack an efficient bossing tool, and they lack crash shot. Archery is the strongest skillset in almost all content of the game, only being weaker to blaze in phantasm and ice spear in alban. And even humans use archery and crash shot, good ones at least. I'll get you a video of that as well. http://kukulu.erinn.biz/live.php?action=viewTimeshift&hash=8279673&wmvto=&firstseek= . So please, if you do not know what you're speaking of, just don't. It is really cringy reading all this and imo it's why NA is the fashion region, and is so far behind compared to the other regions, despite having more damage potential.

    If you're concerned about shadow missions, which seems to be the only content you run, there's wiz HM run on the youtube channel.

    Ummm these are humans. The use of AR should have told you that. Sure it shows a viable use or archery but also with $500 worth of pets and we never see their reforges. The issue with elves stems from the lack of STR, without STR you cannot get the amount of HP the first character has and have to press hard to get the same as the second. If this video had indeed showed elves using FS and Mirage then you would have a point. I play an elf and can do quite a bit at level 13k but nowhere near this as I did not spend a fortune on reforges, bone dragons, crystal deer and who know how many reforges.

    the thread however does have a point in stating that archery is viable, especially mirage in a support kind of role, but soloing things to this extent, I do not know a single elf who has accomplished it solo, it all boils down to the STR deficiency.
    KagaNeyna
  • HazurahHazurah
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,370
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited November 7, 2017
    dont mind me wrong post
  • HazurahHazurah
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,370
    Posts: 443
    Member
    dont mind me, wrong post
  • ToonToon
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,460
    Posts: 37
    Member
    edited November 7, 2017
    Obsim wrote: »
    Ummm these are humans. The use of AR should have told you that.
    They are not humans. The kukulu video is a human as I said, the youtube videos are of an elf. Do you play this game? I think you actually didn't watch the video, because he even uses elf trans in the Phantasm run. And you know, the ladeca aim speed through the entirety of both videos?
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    So what you're saying is we have to shill out money out the end for over 10 bone dragons and tons of reforges to be able to easily clear content? Because what I see is someone who has tons of reforges and tons of pets to spam while they load up their skills. That isn't what the argument is about. Yea they clear it really easy, but that's in KOREA where latency basically doesn't exist.
    First of all that is JP mabinogi, not KR. Second you need reforges and gear to do said content in the video in any race, not just elves. If you think you can pull out your beam swords and do the same as a human, you can't. I know you've never done the dungeons so you wouldn't know. Also, for the latency argument, I have 200ms and a 20:49 phantasm solo run. It's on youtube, look it up.
    Obsim wrote: »
    the thread however does have a point in stating that archery is viable, especially mirage in a support kind of role, but soloing things to this extent, I do not know a single elf who has accomplished it solo, it all boils down to the STR deficiency.
    Actually elves are not behind on STR btw, they get more str from shine of eweca. And str does not influence range or magic.
    https://i.imgur.com/D9cDMTr.png
    https://i.imgur.com/6hJwV4N.png
    Obsim wrote: »
    If this video had indeed showed elves using FS and Mirage then you would have a point. I play an elf and can do quite a bit at level 13k but nowhere near this as I did not spend a fortune on reforges, bone dragons, crystal deer and who know how many reforges.
    If you would have actually watched the video, both FS and mirage are used in phantasm. No mirage in alby because not necessary. 13k is very low total level, and like I said earlier, you need to spend a lot on any race to be able to clear the content in the videos with efficiency, this is not unique to elves. Also, if you spend a lot of gold on both an elf or a human, you will clear faster on the elf.
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Then there is the fact that aiming is still a thing, other than the flat luck chance to miss, archery is the ONLY talent left that can even miss. People are arguing that archery should be able to clear content reliably without needing to get all these reforges and pets to clear content. its a slow talent and if you try and go into groups while maining archery, most people won't take you because they want fast clear times, and by the time you have one shot off 90% of the room is dead or just the room is cleared.
    I'm not sure if you play an elf or not, but aiming and missing is not an issue. It just isn't. Also, what group content are you playing that people do not want archery on? I'm sorry but either you're too weak as an elf, or the people organizing it are stuck in 2002. Elves have the fastest clear rate at literally any content. There are no buts, it's literally the truth.
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Coming from playing since 2009, archery used to be viable with just stats and a decent bow. you didn't need to spend so much gold/money to be able to clear content with archery, but now it seems like its necessary or else you just lag behind. That's dumb and people have been trying to get that fixed for ages now. and just because you can clear content with it does not mean it isn't broken and needs to be fixed. i bet you at least 80% of archers wont be able to do the things in the videos you sent because getting the gold and pets and reforges is too tall an order for them.
    Yeah in 2009 where the only content was Shadow missions (seeing a trend here) anything was viable. Every single talent was weak, and so was the game's content. The game has harder content now, which requires stronger characters. Not just stronger archers, any talent. You lag behind in any talent if you don't invest in it. No one is trying to get anything fixed, as it does not need fixing. 80% of the archers in NA don't do that, because either they can't afford it, or they buy fashion. It is how NA is. In KR and JP, MMOs are very important to people, and players do not mind spending a lot of RL money on them. In NA it's not only not the case, but the people who do, mostly buy fashion. Some people can't spend money, or have time to grind for gold, which is understandable of course. That doesn't change anything regarding archery though.

    I'm sorry but these are just incorrect mindsets. I'm not trying to boast myself or anything, it's just incorrect. End game/good players stay away from the forums for this reason, it just seems like you cannot be reasoned with. I've even given you videos. I'm not sure if you understand what the videos mean. It means in every single dungeon, the fastest clear time is done by elves. It's not because of gear or pets, as humans have also tried, if you did your research you would see that. They are just slower. I'm going to leave you with one more video, an archery group video of phantasm, which currently is the fastest phantasm group run
    This is a 4 elf run. Why 4 elves? Because that is the fastest clear setup. This is also an archery video since you seem to be stuck on that. Fastest clear nowadays would be with 4 people using blaze, however that has not been done yet. Don't start with the latency thing again, and other region thing. This clear is old. The characters were considerably weaker compared to now. Yes most NA players can't fire as fast as them. That is due to their location. If you had 2ms to NA and 2ms to KR, you're playing the same game. Even if you can't fire as fast as them, the run is exactly the same, just a bit slower.
    ShouKPolicromaVaughan
  • PanPan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,745
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    edited November 7, 2017
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest -removed- I've ever seen.
    KagaNeynaSherri
  • HazurahHazurah
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,370
    Posts: 443
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    edited November 7, 2017
    Pan wrote: »
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest -removed- I've ever seen.

    while i'm aware of that funny fact
    i dont quite get the meaning of you mention that problem here
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,920
    Posts: 8,689
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    edited November 7, 2017
    Pan wrote: »
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest -removed- I've ever seen.

    Oh c'mon they're not THAT ignorant. They do more than just dye their clothes. Kek.
    SherriGreta
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 49,315
    Posts: 6,955
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    edited November 7, 2017
    Pan wrote: »
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest **** I've ever seen.

    There. Fixed. Keep your vulgar speech elsewhere. It's against forums CoC.

    Also Mewlynne plays Mabinogi for like 9 years (if i remember correctly, she said that in stream). I'm pretty sure she has at least a decent knowledge for this game, oh wise Pan.
    Sherri
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,160
    Posts: 2,714
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    Elves are of stronk!
    Gib clay revamp!
    Elves can into space dual wield of daggers/scimitars!
  • PanPan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,745
    Posts: 418
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Pan wrote: »
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest **** I've ever seen.

    There. Fixed. Keep your vulgar speech elsewhere. It's against forums CoC.

    Also Mewlynne plays Mabinogi for like 9 years (if i remember correctly, she said that in stream). I'm pretty sure she has at least a decent knowledge for this game, oh wise Pan.

    Sure, she has played for a long time, but does it really mean she learned anything during those 9 years? Probably not as in-depth as some players go.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,920
    Posts: 8,689
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    Pan wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Pan wrote: »
    Even NA GMs lack actual game knowledge. It's deeply disappointing in my honest opinion. Watching Mabinogi livestreams are one of the cringiest **** I've ever seen.

    There. Fixed. Keep your vulgar speech elsewhere. It's against forums CoC.

    Also Mewlynne plays Mabinogi for like 9 years (if i remember correctly, she said that in stream). I'm pretty sure she has at least a decent knowledge for this game, oh wise Pan.

    Sure, she has played for a long time, but does it really mean she learned anything during those 9 years? Probably not as in-depth as some players go.

    Hey there, I can vouch that Nkeona does know how to play. She might not be top tier elite and does 3m damage at the clobbermeister. But she is a vet who has been here since the beginning. You are just arguing at this point for the sake of replying. Stop.
    Sherri
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,160
    Posts: 2,714
    Member
    edited November 7, 2017
    3 mill damage?! Better than I'll ever be. O_O

    That sounded sarcastic.
    I'm not trying to and I'm not joking.