Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the Great Era of Commerce Part 2 Update! https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/75598/great-era-of-commerce-part-2-patch-notes-july-28th
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Bring Back The Gypsy Talent Title

Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
Posts: 1,704
Member
edited August 19, 2019 in Feedback and Suggestions
Given how Mabinogi is an anime style fantasy MMORPG, it makes no sense as to why the "Gypsy" Talent would have been removed.
As stated above, Mabinogi is an anime style fantasy MMORPG.
As such:
Modern outrage based on emotional insight of inaccurate representation of Oxford Dictionary definitions cannot, and should not apply to medieval or ancient terms, let alone be capable of offending anyone in an anime inspired game.
It's literally and figuratively inane to be offended by a fantasy world, wherein the definitions of things are going to be different than in reality.
Had it truly been problematic, there were already multiple options in place for that Talent to be invisible from sight.
If there are no current plans for a "Dance" Talent where the title can be earned through Mastery, or if developers lack desire in reinstating the "Gypsy" title, then Nexon KR has failed the history and inner workings of it's own Bard Camp.
-Darkpixie99 of Nao

According to the dictionary:
gyp·sy
/ˈjipsē/
noun
1.
a member of a traveling people traditionally living by itinerant trade and fortune telling. Gypsies speak a language (Romany) that is related to Hindi and are believed to have originated in South Asia.
synonyms: Romany, Rom, chal, chai, gitano, gitana, tzigane, didicoi
2.
a nomadic or free-spirited person.
synonyms: Romany, Rom, chal, chai, gitano, gitana, tzigane, didicoi
adjective
Sherri
  1. Would you like the gypsy title to return?28 votes
    1. Yes
       71% (20 votes)
    2. No
       25% (7 votes)
    3. I don't know
       4% (1 vote)

Comments

  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,670
    Posts: 886
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    I would love for it to return. It was honestly one of my fave talent titles that I would wear quite often. While yes, 800 or so years ago it was used as offensive in the European countries. In NA, KR and even I am sure in EU countries it is not used as a slur anymore. It's not offensive anymore and I wish it was never changed in the first place. I miss it. I am glad I have screenshots saved from over the years of it so I remember my one of my fave talent titles.
    Darkpixie99
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,695
    Posts: 313
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word. Re-naming the talent for the sake of not having a term that some people see as a slur against them in the game is fine by me. However, "Wandering Bard" is a little...meh. "Minstrel" would be a good substitute, but that does have a few strands of racial goldfish poo hanging on it as well, so how about "Balladeer" or maybe "Rhapsodist" (more at https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/bard)? Those words are sufficiently exotic and old-timey, but without any gold fish poo hanging off of them to ruin the fun.

    Addendum: Maybe the Greek "Aoidos", a term for a poet/singer, could also work well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoidos
    Leinei
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word. Re-naming the talent for the sake of not having a term that some people see as a slur against them in the game is fine by me. However, "Wandering Bard" is a little...meh. "Minstrel" would be a good substitute, but that does have a few strands of racial goldfish poo hanging on it as well, so how about "Balladeer" or maybe "Rhapsodist" (more at https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/bard)? Those words are sufficiently exotic and old-timey, but without any gold fish poo hanging off of them to ruin the fun.

    Addendum: Maybe the Greek "Aoidos", a term for a poet/singer, could also work well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoidos

    Troubadour could also work.
  • VeylaineVeylaine
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,050
    Posts: 348
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word. Re-naming the talent for the sake of not having a term that some people see as a slur against them in the game is fine by me. However, "Wandering Bard" is a little...meh. "Minstrel" would be a good substitute, but that does have a few strands of racial goldfish poo hanging on it as well, so how about "Balladeer" or maybe "Rhapsodist" (more at https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/bard)? Those words are sufficiently exotic and old-timey, but without any gold fish poo hanging off of them to ruin the fun.

    Addendum: Maybe the Greek "Aoidos", a term for a poet/singer, could also work well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoidos

    Troubadour could also work.

    its already used for a different but similar title of bard chef and adventurer.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,760
    Posts: 950
    Member
    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word. Re-naming the talent for the sake of not having a term that some people see as a slur against them in the game is fine by me. However, "Wandering Bard" is a little...meh. "Minstrel" would be a good substitute, but that does have a few strands of racial goldfish poo hanging on it as well, so how about "Balladeer" or maybe "Rhapsodist" (more at https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/bard)? Those words are sufficiently exotic and old-timey, but without any gold fish poo hanging off of them to ruin the fun.

    Addendum: Maybe the Greek "Aoidos", a term for a poet/singer, could also work well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoidos

    "Gypsy" was never always a slur.

    The N-word has been, and still is, considered a slur since its first common usage, blacks using it as a term of endearment between each other notwithstanding.
    Darkpixie99
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    I would love for it to return. It was honestly one of my fave talent titles that I would wear quite often. While yes, 800 or so years ago it was used as offensive in the European countries. In NA, KR and even I am sure in EU countries it is not used as a slur anymore. It's not offensive anymore and I wish it was never changed in the first place. I miss it. I am glad I have screenshots saved from over the years of it so I remember my one of my fave talent titles.

    Meanwhile, Gyppo (The term which originally made being called a Gypsy hurtful in the medieval era of witch hunts and misunderstanding)-
    Has a completely different modern definition:

    gyppo[ jip-oh ]
    WORD ORIGIN
    noun, plural gyp·pos. Slang.
    a logger who operates on a small budget and typically gleans the timberlands already cut by larger companies.

    It truly is sad when no one opens up a dictionary (virtual or otherwise) for researching the English language.
    If a word was still seen as, or even used as a slur by society in general, then it would've been listed right from the start.

    Gypsy: RELATED WORDS
    nomad, bohemian, vagrant, sharper, roamer, tzigane, zingara, zingaro

    I suppose "the Bohemian" or "a Nomad" could work as temporary replacement titles, as well as "an Honorary Gypsy of the Bard Camp"

    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word.
    If that were the case, then why would a nomadic tribe of people invest in, let alone care about the modern world of video games?
    It makes as little sense as the Amish threatening to sue Hollywood for making a horror movie inspired by their culture.

  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    I would like to stay away from sensitive political topics, but many Romani (who are also called Roma) especially in Italy and other migrants are being subject to deportations, even for people who have gained legal status. It's dangerous times and there are dangerous ideas out there, so I would understand the change in vocabulary over sensitive issues.
    Danievictria
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,695
    Posts: 313
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    As messed up as it is, there are still Romany people out there who do see "Gypsy" as an offensive term, like the N-word.
    If that were the case, then why would a nomadic tribe of people invest in, let alone care about the modern world of video games?
    It makes as little sense as the Amish threatening to sue Hollywood for making a horror movie inspired by their culture.

    Really, it's more like a country club with predominantly White patrons decided to get rid of their lawn jockies because of the racist connotations. You'd get White patrons complaining, "I don't see why the lawn jockies had to go. I thought they were kitschy and charming. It's not like any Black people come here anyway to get upset by them." But, in the end, it's the right thing to do because it shows you give a flying rat's patoot about others, even when they're not right over your shoulder.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    I would like to stay away from sensitive political topics, but many Romani (who are also called Roma) especially in Italy and other migrants are being subject to deportations, even for people who have gained legal status. It's dangerous times and there are dangerous ideas out there, so I would understand the change in vocabulary over sensitive issues.
    Again:
    If that were the case, then why would a nomadic tribe of people invest in, let alone care about the modern world of video games?
    It makes as little sense as the Amish threatening to sue Hollywood for making a horror movie inspired by their culture.

    And if the vocabulary exists in a fantasy world, wherein the term "gypsy" is seen as a commonplace and positive description to the nomadic people within the game, then what's there to be angry about?
    In Mabinogi, NPCs aren't from any real life countries, but ones designed for fantasy.
    Henceforth, "the Gypsy" couldn't possibly be seen as an attack on the Romani people in any court of law.
    Mabinogi is meant to be a virtual, nonexistent world you can escape from your problems.
    It's not something to drag politics or the stress of reality into.
    Let the politicians continue to do their jobs, and it's not Nexon's responsibility to pander to a people who likely can't afford computers anyways.
    Deportations can happen regardless of legal status or loop holes, it just depends on the government and their legislation in place.
    (After all, the Declaration of Human Rights doesn't seem to apply to any county in their court of law, so... yeah. There's that legal loophole.)
    While Romani have been through a lot in history, they can most certainly survive without playing a video game which can very easily depict their tribe in a positive light.
  • EraleaEralea
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,785
    Posts: 779
    Member
    When I watched Disney's Hunchback as a kid, I never realised that "gypsy" referred to their race. Kid me thought it meant their occupation lol.

    Only heard about the word being a racial slur after Mabi introduced talent titles and a friend expressed great offence at the idea of Mabi using a slur as a title (afaik she wasn't actually Romani, just socially aware).

    She doesn't play anymore, but she can't have been the only one offended by it. Tbh I don't see much chance of Nexon changing it back. Should they bring back a title that offends a minority just because the majority doesn't view it as being offensive? It wouldn't look very professional if they flip-flopped on this one.

    There are plenty of other things you can call a specialist in adventure and music that won't upset people. I actually don't mind "Wandering Bard" because um... that's what I thought gypsies were. lol. "Touring Musician" would have been even better.
    DanievictriaIonGreta
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    I would like to stay away from sensitive political topics, but many Romani (who are also called Roma) especially in Italy and other migrants are being subject to deportations, even for people who have gained legal status. It's dangerous times and there are dangerous ideas out there, so I would understand the change in vocabulary over sensitive issues.
    Again:
    If that were the case, then why would a nomadic tribe of people invest in, let alone care about the modern world of video games?
    It makes as little sense as the Amish threatening to sue Hollywood for making a horror movie inspired by their culture.

    And if the vocabulary exists in a fantasy world, wherein the term "gypsy" is seen as a commonplace and positive description to the nomadic people within the game, then what's there to be angry about?
    In Mabinogi, NPCs aren't from any real life countries, but ones designed for fantasy.
    Henceforth, "the Gypsy" couldn't possibly be seen as an attack on the Romani people in any court of law.
    Mabinogi is meant to be a virtual, nonexistent world you can escape from your problems.
    It's not something to drag politics or the stress of reality into.
    Let the politicians continue to do their jobs, and it's not Nexon's responsibility to pander to a people who likely can't afford computers anyways.
    Deportations can happen regardless of legal status or loop holes, it just depends on the government and their legislation in place.
    (After all, the Declaration of Human Rights doesn't seem to apply to any county in their court of law, so... yeah. There's that legal loophole.)
    While Romani have been through a lot in history, they can most certainly survive without playing a video game which can very easily depict their tribe in a positive light.

    They're not a completely nomadic tribe. There are many trying to settle down, but it's political systems that force them to move. I would say they should care if their name is being used for business purposes, but they're not going to see any benefit from it.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    Eralea wrote: »
    Tbh I don't see much chance of Nexon changing it back. Should they bring back a title that offends a minority just because the majority doesn't view it as being offensive? It wouldn't look very professional if they flip-flopped on this one.

    For one, why would anyone who pops into a fantasy world (who would like to embrace the culture of a gypsy) even if it's via a NPC's side story, want to see that word gone?
    By erasing gypsy, you erase not just a name for more than just a race, but an entire culture of nomads who proudly embrace(d) the wanderer lifestyle.
    Gypsies have been known as fortune tellers, pottery repairers, and so very many positive things.
    And yet people are offended through associating the term with the negative interactions. Interactions which happened so very many years ago.
    Nexon is not responsible for those types of misunderstandings, nor were they around to witness or encourage that.
    However, they can change that negative association by turning The Bard Camp into a more focused side quest experience on the struggles and life of not just one, but all the Bard Camp NPCs.


    They're not a completely nomadic tribe. There are many trying to settle down, but it's political systems that force them to move. I would say they should care if their name is being used for business purposes, but they're not going to see any benefit from it.

    The lack of profitability is precisely why they should stay out of it.
    If anything, Nexon could have reached out to them instead, and asked them if they could set up a website in order to tell the story of as many tribes as possible.
    While they are nomads, and this is a world of technology, the only way they can make money is by setting up some sort of shop.
    That's just how life always is. Adaptation and survival, and nomadic lifestyle is no exception to that rule, just as a business who likewise cannot adapt to changing trends.

  • EraleaEralea
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,785
    Posts: 779
    Member
    For one, why would anyone who pops into a fantasy world (who would like to embrace the culture of a gypsy) even if it's via a NPC's side story, want to see that word gone?
    By erasing gypsy, you erase not just a name for more than just a race, but an entire culture of nomads who proudly embrace(d) the wanderer lifestyle.
    Gypsies have been known as fortune tellers, pottery repairers, and so very many positive things.

    The talent title is for Adventure+Music. It's strange to use the name of an ethnicity to describe a talent. Nomadic pottery repairers don't have anything to do with music...
    Greta
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    Eralea wrote: »
    The talent title is for Adventure+Music. It's strange to use the name of an ethnicity to describe a talent. Nomadic pottery repairers don't have anything to do with music...

    The title was gypsy, because people in the past generally associated gypsies as dancers, who traveled similarly to circus folk.
    Medieval Romani Gypsy Dancer at Abbey Music Festival:
    3771669763_faa5e0e137_b.jpg
    Photo credit: Peter Howes

  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,375
    Posts: 355
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    While I understand most people didn't mind the title (and neither do I), fact is gypsy is a culturally-charged term, in much the same way as the word indian. Originally, it referred to a group of people who were mistaken for another culture (Romani for Egyptians, Native Americans for Indians), and have been treated as such. Even if some of them embrace the term, and even if it's no longer relevant today, a lot of history lies with the word.

    For example, indian, when referring to something relating to Native Americans, is still too charged to be used for anything. A Talent Title like "Master Indian" can still offend and carries significant history, even if it would be historically appropriate in medieval Ireland, and even in a fantasy game.
    IonGreta
  • EraleaEralea
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,785
    Posts: 779
    Member
    Okay when I came into this thread I had a fairly neutral viewpoint on the use of “gypsy” because a part of me still filed the word under “things you do”, not “things you are”.

    But the more I read your posts, the more I realise that this word refers to an actual ethnic group and their culture, and reeeeaaally shouldn’t be placed alongside occupational titles like “Artisan”, “Hawker”, Black Magician” etc.

    No other talent titles are ethnicities. There are no Master Jews or Seasoned Bavarians or Wise Cherokee running around in the game. It’s super weird that we had “Gypsy” for so long.

    It’s also weird that you’ve managed to convince me of the exact opposite thing you’re advocating for but seriously. This is a race of people. We shouldn’t use them as a talent name.
    DanievictriaGretaSherri
  • DraechDraech
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,375
    Posts: 355
    Member
    Eralea wrote: »
    Okay when I came into this thread I had a fairly neutral viewpoint on the use of “gypsy” because a part of me still filed the word under “things you do”, not “things you are”.

    But the more I read your posts, the more I realise that this word refers to an actual ethnic group and their culture, and reeeeaaally shouldn’t be placed alongside occupational titles like “Artisan”, “Hawker”, Black Magician” etc.

    No other talent titles are ethnicities. There are no Master Jews or Seasoned Bavarians or Wise Cherokee running around in the game. It’s super weird that we had “Gypsy” for so long.

    It’s also weird that you’ve managed to convince me of the exact opposite thing you’re advocating for but seriously. This is a race of people. We shouldn’t use them as a talent name.

    I don't personally mind that. Imagine a Gunslinger/Alchemist title of "Seasoned American."
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 19, 2019
    Eralea wrote: »
    It’s also weird that you’ve managed to convince me of the exact opposite thing you’re advocating for but seriously. This is a race of people. We shouldn’t use them as a talent name.

    It's not advocating if it's mere dictionary and the historical medieval truth of a term more often used to describe nomads, rather than the (intended?) Romani.

    Draech wrote: »
    I don't personally mind that. Imagine a Gunslinger/Alchemist title of "Seasoned American."
    Inb4 that title becomes an exclusive to the states...
    Although knowing today's era of politically correct and paranoid companies, Nexon would likely use "cowboy."

  • EraleaEralea
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,785
    Posts: 779
    Member
    I’d derank dual guns and be an Expert American

    Taking suggestions on what I should do with my newfound expertise in Americana
    Greta
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    Eralea wrote: »
    I’d derank dual guns and be an Expert American

    Taking suggestions on what I should do with my newfound expertise in Americana

    You sure you don't want a "Yakuza" title instead? I hear that culture is popular in anime, at least.