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Do something about alt-abuse

Comments

  • LutetiumLutetium
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,605
    Posts: 239
    Member
    Cho wrote: »
    He's whining about afk events, rng, and gacha. In other words, he's telling us to blame nexon for the alt-abuse.
    Nexon (NA) publishes the game and decides which events to run and local monetization strategy. Devcat makes the game and decides the droprates, they are not the same however the actions of both make the prospect of using mules beneficial instead of discouraging using mules by making it extra "work" for no extra reward, thus eliminating the problem of seeing 40 mules at the tail altar and 600 at the event NPC which is the complaint of the thread. They could even get away with AFK events if they simply locked the rewards to the account.
    How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast yesterday?

    Helsa wrote: »
    Nexon can't tell the difference between two people using their own computers through the same router and one person doing that. What if your friend brings their laptop over and logs in through your router, what does Nexon make of that? People can complain to tech support but then so can the botters; how does Nexon tell the difference?
    Blackcipher runs on execution ring 0, meaning Nexon does potentially have the ability to pull the serial number of your device and various components like the motherboard, solid state drives, hard drives, and so on making it very easy to identify which clients are running on the same system and when because they have logs of exactly when and how long you're logged in and could trivially compare those hardware serials to login times in the Mabinogi MS SQL database. If you're interested in the identifying information available you can see it yourself using hwinfo64, I can't say if Blackcipher does or doesn't collect it I'm simply pointing out it runs at a privilege level that has access to the information.
    I've only personally observed it scanning the filesystem and triggering if it sees certain filenames, not bothering to match the hashes of said files only the names, gets in the way of work sometimes so I just run Mabi on a dedicated system on an isolated network. Most of the player base are also running d*sc*rd which is immensely more invasive comparatively.

    It should also be noted, you can spoof whatever models and serials you want with KVM/QEMU anyways and is a well known solution for getting around overzealous anticheats that ban just for using a virtual machine to play legitimately, which are well documented on the VFIO reddit, so even if Blackcipher was collecting hardware serials if someone wanted to use mules bad enough they could still get around it making that yet another non-solution.

    As for IP addresses, they're not a very good identifier because not only can multiple people be playing behind the same router as mentioned in this thread, many ISPs are starting to use CGNAT (Carrier Grade Network Address Translation) so hundreds or even thousands of users are sharing a single internet facing IP address. On top of that many people are using VPNs now be it "privacy" memes that were shilled to them like n*rdvpn and 'p'ia or potentially valid bypasses to bad ISP level routing like wt**st, they are also all sharing a pool of IPs owned by the providers of those VPNs. Also as I mentioned in a previous post, it's easy to ask a neighbor for their wifi password, tether a burner phone, or even use direction wifi antennas to connect to open networks (fast food, libraries, etc) if you're in a city.

    From a technological view point, the only way to "get rid of the bots" is for the game design that makes them beneficial to be changed, anything else (IP bans, blanket bans, hardware serial bans, etc) simply punishes normal players more than it punishes the people using the mules anyway.

    Helsa wrote: »
    Nexon is not going to reduce everyone to one account, especially after saying it was okay, for over a decade.
    This is the absolute final truth of the matter and it's extremely unlikely that Nexon and Devcat will actually change anything no matter what solutions we as players may propose to it because there aren't enough people, really if any, who will stop buying gachapon and reforges over other players using mules to even register on their radars.
    Those who dislike seeing mules will simply have to blacklist them, change channels, or learn to cope and ignore them, and maybe some will decide to join the game design industry and push for change from within along side me.
    Sherri
  • UnpayedUnpayed
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,495
    Posts: 97
    Member
    Muler wrote: »
    "Not all Mules are harmful"
    I'm going to ignore the fact that this forum name is called "Muler" . If you want me to take your seriously, Post in your main account.
    Peadrian wrote: »
    Burn
    That's too extreme.
    Lutetium wrote: »
    1. I Remember in the Hamlet release event, they had to end it early due to alt abuse. I think this was one of the times they realized the alt issue and did the "Select Character" for events today. If they lock event rewards to the account, It will sure curb Event mules, but they would have to make all rewards able to get in the event shop someway or another.

    2. If it's scanning for filenames, I'm sure it's not doing a pretty good job when I accidentally leave a certain program on. I ain't naming it and it wouldn't work anyways (I googled) . Not that I use it for multiplayers, just for singleplayer games, thank you enough.

    3. Agreed. IP bans aren't the same many years ago. It wouldn't work with these VPNs. Hence why I recommend Newbie gating the game until they achieve certain accomplishments to open the newbie gate. Sure, it will hurt the game, but it's a sacrifice to curb these mules.

    4. Yo Nexon! Go study how to stop smurf accounts, especially how they tackled CSGO and TF2 smurfs. And probably study with Ubisoft also with R6 Siege Smurfs too.
    Cho wrote: »
    Once again, these top tier users look down on us less fortunate like (EFF)ing Snobs. Seriously. This behavior needs to stop.

    To be clear, I don't 100 percent hate mules. Only those who abuse the system and hurt the community by caring of their fat-(EFF) wallet. Assisting the community as placeholder characters (Character fill ins for rewards for the community/friends/guild, hence placeholder Characters), however are A-ok for me.

    I call the good mules as "Placeholder Characters" instead of mules because these Placeholder characters are either abandoned friend accounts that have premium pets/gear and/or able to do the content themselves.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,530
    Posts: 5,830
    Member
    Lutetium wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Nexon can't tell the difference between two people using their own computers through the same router and one person doing that. What if your friend brings their laptop over and logs in through your router, what does Nexon make of that? People can complain to tech support but then so can the botters; how does Nexon tell the difference?
    Blackcipher runs on execution ring 0, meaning Nexon does potentially have the ability to pull the serial number of your device and various components like the motherboard, solid state drives, hard drives, and so on making it very easy to identify which clients are running on the same system and when because they have logs of exactly when and how long you're logged in and could trivially compare those hardware serials to login times in the Mabinogi MS SQL database. If you're interested in the identifying information available you can see it yourself using hwinfo64, I can't say if Blackcipher does or doesn't collect it I'm simply pointing out it runs at a privilege level that has access to the information.
    I've only personally observed it scanning the filesystem and triggering if it sees certain filenames, not bothering to match the hashes of said files only the names, gets in the way of work sometimes so I just run Mabi on a dedicated system on an isolated network. Most of the player base are also running d*sc*rd which is immensely more invasive comparatively.

    It should also be noted, you can spoof whatever models and serials you want with KVM/QEMU anyways and is a well known solution for getting around overzealous anticheats that ban just for using a virtual machine to play legitimately, which are well documented on the VFIO reddit, so even if Blackcipher was collecting hardware serials if someone wanted to use mules bad enough they could still get around it making that yet another non-solution.

    Mhm, this is partly why I have said that they should be able to detect multiple sessions coming from the same computer. Their file system scans are likely for finding mods and it would not surprise me if implementing even that feature did not occur until after Nexon managed to convince a judge to let them do it. The more invasive stuff would likely be ruled by a judge as none of their business and so present litigative opportunities to the player base should Nexon green light it anyway. In the end, even if this were to pass, the burden suddenly plunked in tech supports lap would adversly effect the bottom line on Nexon continuing with Mabinogi.

    Lutetium wrote: »
    As for IP addresses, they're not a very good identifier because not only can multiple people be playing behind the same router as mentioned in this thread, many ISPs are starting to use CGNAT (Carrier Grade Network Address Translation) so hundreds or even thousands of users are sharing a single internet facing IP address. On top of that many people are using VPNs now be it "privacy" memes that were shilled to them like n*rdvpn and 'p'ia or potentially valid bypasses to bad ISP level routing like wt**st, they are also all sharing a pool of IPs owned by the providers of those VPNs. Also as I mentioned in a previous post, it's easy to ask a neighbor for their wifi password, tether a burner phone, or even use direction wifi antennas to connect to open networks (fast food, libraries, etc) if you're in a city.

    From a technological view point, the only way to "get rid of the bots" is for the game design that makes them beneficial to be changed, anything else (IP bans, blanket bans, hardware serial bans, etc) simply punishes normal players more than it punishes the people using the mules anyway.

    Yep, that's why throughout this thread I've said that reducing everyone to one account will cause more trouble than it would solve, never mind it also being profoundly unfair.

    Lutetium wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Nexon is not going to reduce everyone to one account, especially after saying it was okay, for over a decade.
    This is the absolute final truth of the matter and it's extremely unlikely that Nexon and Devcat will actually change anything no matter what solutions we as players may propose to it because there aren't enough people, really if any, who will stop buying gachapon and reforges over other players using mules to even register on their radars.
    Those who dislike seeing mules will simply have to blacklist them, change channels, or learn to cope and ignore them, and maybe some will decide to join the game design industry and push for change from within along side me.

    Well exactly, like I said: "are folks not paying the mail transfer fee really what's keeping them up at night?" Nexon NA, is an American registered company. As such, they prefer to treat their lawyers like children: lawyers should be seen and not heard. :) The last thing you want is to actually have your lawyers have something to do.
  • CatspawCatspaw
    Mabinogi Rep: 610
    Posts: 6
    Member
    I would love to have my alts being able to be summoned as partners. This would allow me to do content that requires more then 1 player. Yes I play with alts, I don't bot nor have multiple accounts. If I run into a brick wall or get bored playing my main I then jump on one of my alts, this keeps the game interesting for me. It also lets me experience the different races. I myself don't like botting, but from the view point of a programmer this would be extremely hard to stop without hurting others. The best was to stop botting is to report it, but be positive it is botting and not a group of individuals playing together.