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Repeal the dungeon revamp

Comments

  • OpalthiraOpalthira
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,580
    Posts: 943
    Member
    edited July 21, 2017
    I tried to run rabbie for thunder page 4.
    I died like 20 times and it took me an hour to run it.
    Didn't get the page, not going through that again...

    Looking at those rooms where like 5 metal skeletons multi aggro you at once and then just stun me to death.
    Tbh thats every dungeon pretty much now. Walk into room get multi aggro pinned on ground until dead.
  • RedetsuRedetsu
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,190
    Posts: 67
    Member
    I feel like they should have done the revamp only for the basic difficulty and up and left the normal version alone. At least then, newer players could do most dungeons, maybe even learn how to fight each kind of monster. Then maybe if they find a basic pass or higher and try it out, they'll realize the difficulty and possibly practice on the normal version instead, or get friends, maybe form a party to do it then.

    But at least let them experience the dungeon without the entrance being enemies that feel like they're the ancient version. That could be rather discouraging in trying the dungeons again for a bit, while on the other-hand, with shadow missions, the difficulty seems more fair for newer players and usually faster to finish
    YokkaichiCscrimsonNilremWolfandWolfDanievictria
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,045
    No, don't revert the dungeons. RAHM gives like 12m exp per run, why the heck would you not want that.
  • KysiraiKysirai
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,295
    Posts: 49
    Member
    Any dungeon that wasn't adv Hm was barely worth running before the revamp. Now even your typically basic dungeons gives an OK amount of exp. We're still plagued by low drop chances but I don't think that should warrant a repeal of the entire system. That said, locking it to 4 players was a terrible idea as it sucks to get a group of friends together just to be like, "Nah so and so needs to sit out cause we have too many people."
    DanievictriaNilrem
  • FoxgirlkatieFoxgirlkatie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,055
    Posts: 156
    Member
    AgentJean wrote: »
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!

    Agenajean. let me make that even better.

    Add in HM alter room to ALL dungeons in the game. including Iria.

    Add in an Abyss varient to all dungeons.

    and a Phantasm to all dungeons.

    all dungeons would have their own exclusive rewards and enemies that only come from their phantasms.

    Nobody asked for this dungeon revamp we got where enemies are just slightly stronger. we end game players just wanted new harder activities within the dungeons.
    DanievictriaMikuV3
  • CapnReconCapnRecon
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,055
    Posts: 30
    Member
    I'm not running a five floor dungeon to get 200 gold, or jerk around trying to get one of those godforsaken "For one, For two, For three" etc. passes, only to get, you guessed it, 200 gold. A lot of the dungeons ended up much shorter floor-wise, but in turn enemies were beefed up because everyone complained that the enemies were "too easy".

    When people did the dungeons back in Pre-Genesis, the level they were at are equivalent to what we have now. And a new player shouldn't expect to plow through every dungeon on their first try. They need to work on their characters like the rest of us did to become strong enough to overcome the dungeon.

    Simply turning dungeons into Clive's Candy Castle doesn't fix the problem. It spoonfeeds noobs content the rest of us had to work for, causing them to expect everything to be handed to them. Plus, it screws over mid and endgame players. They want engaging content to play, instead of an easy snorefest that requires no effort to complete. It's not fun that way.

    Remember, most people play games for fun. Making dungeons completeable by an arthritic turtle isn't the way to go. It just bores everyone.


    TL;DR cAsUls ShUlD sTiCk To AlBy NoRmAl
    DanievictriaLiyetaNilrem
  • AbsintheAbsinthe
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,005
    Posts: 16
    Member
    Erm...didn't the revamp happen because of the people complaining that the dungeons were too easy? Yes, it could have been handled better as with most things, but no company is perfect. I don't mind the changes in all honesty, though I can see how it makes things a lot harder for lower-level players.

    (P-please don't bite my head off :s )

    No. The developers just saw what was essentially abandoned content and wanted to breath new life into it. Supposedly the dungeons are still doable for any talent at the recommended difficulty level. I'm not seeing it.

    My pets were able to hold their own in dungeons through intermediate which was about right for their skills (well .. not Peaca ... that was insane). Now they struggle at basic.

    My main is supposed to be able to hold her own in the most difficult dungeons. But she can't even get past Fiodh intermediate. Of course, she can't even get past that stupid dragon in memento and that is supposed to be basic/fledgling+. So for all I know even Alby basic is out of her league. LOL

    I know I suck at these sorts of games. But either the game is giving incorrect feedback or I am far more pathetic than I imagined.
  • CscrimsonCscrimson
    Mabinogi Rep: 670
    Posts: 24
    Member
    CapnRecon wrote: »
    I'm not running a five floor dungeon to get 200 gold, or jerk around trying to get one of those godforsaken "For one, For two, For three" etc. passes, only to get, you guessed it, 200 gold. A lot of the dungeons ended up much shorter floor-wise, but in turn enemies were beefed up because everyone complained that the enemies were "too easy".

    When people did the dungeons back in Pre-Genesis, the level they were at are equivalent to what we have now. And a new player shouldn't expect to plow through every dungeon on their first try. They need to work on their characters like the rest of us did to become strong enough to overcome the dungeon.

    Simply turning dungeons into Clive's Candy Castle doesn't fix the problem. It spoonfeeds noobs content the rest of us had to work for, causing them to expect everything to be handed to them. Plus, it screws over mid and endgame players. They want engaging content to play, instead of an easy snorefest that requires no effort to complete. It's not fun that way.

    Remember, most people play games for fun. Making dungeons completeable by an arthritic turtle isn't the way to go. It just bores everyone.


    TL;DR cAsUls ShUlD sTiCk To AlBy NoRmAl

    Yeah its more about the abysmal drop rates. One shouldn't need to grind for 2000 hours to get an RNG drop on an item that has RNG stat roles when the RNG to obtain one chance at RNG is so low.
    ZeoNilrem
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
    Posts: 315
    Member
    Sure, if the droprate was significantly increased I'd bother with the dungeons again (and I mean what is now 0.000000000000000001% should maybe be 10% or 15%, something achievable. As you can see with stone upgrades in sidhe finnachaid, 25% chance means you sometimes fail 10+ times before even getting it right once, as opposed to the theoretical 3). But as of now, all dungeons are good for are exp..and they're not even THAT good. You're kidding yourselves. What's making it worthwhile for you are potions and events, like when we had only just gotten it. I can probably make more exp spamming much, much easier content with essentially no repair costs, while if I don't take my best of best gear during the dungeons, I'm not gonna get anywhere within the next two hours.

    When I started out I could handle rabbie basic at level 100 because I moved around tactically and lightning bolted enemies from far away while remaining on single aggro. Enemies hit super hard, but had MANAGABLE AGGRO and LOW HP. Now we have GIGANTIC HP and FAIRLY HIGH damage. Outside of dungeons it can get even worse. Freaking 200-mobs-at-once-instant-multiaggro-of-death-and-destruction-with-102408204203928430423982-normalattack-damage-and-all-standers-level-2+

    See, my problem with this is: it's not "challenging". It's "draining". It's not any less boring than it was before. There isn't anychallenge whatsoever in cranked up hp and damage when the dungeons are exactly the same, unappealing trash they were before. Little to no drops, ridiculously boring design (no elevations, no different rooms, no gimmicks, no shapes other than god damned squares everywhere, unnecessarily long passageways). Everything that was borng before is still boring now. The only thing that changed was that it now takes even longer to solo them. I still don't have any incentive to do dungeons in groups though because the droprates are crap and the dungeons themselves are boring.
    Sidhe Finnachaid is a decent start, but it also suffers from the giant hp sponge sickness and the same old gimmicks we've had before. The only thing new are the boss' attack pattern (which I appreciate greatly) and the fishes. I'd count the dragons too, since they give only mages a chance to shine for once, but even that is limited due to the fact that it's - once again - all about kill or be killed, in a giant bullet hell of thunder and fireball strikes. Using cleric shields and using crisis escape outside range to drop aggro is about as tactical as it gets.


    Last thing, for the person who ran rabbie for thunder page 4 @Opalthira : run ghost of partholon instead and grab all of the flying booklets. They drop the page way more frequently. It's not really hard to get it anymore at this point. Market crashed due to people spamming samhain as well, where there was an interlude of a drastically shortened rabbie with the same droprates. I don't know if people are holding on to the pages and pretending the market "totally doesn't have any", but it sure does. I bet half of the people have spare pages lying around.
    ZeoCICILIA
  • ShouKShouK
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,735
    Posts: 824
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    The difficulty for the dungeon is fine new player-wise. Dungeon revamp happened shortly after I joined Mabi so I cannot compare to how it was before since I have only got a chance to run Alby/Ciar Beginner/Normal iirc but as a new player during that time I found myself getting beat up so bad in Barri Normal and was annihilated in Fiodh Intermediate. But it doesn't chase me away, I understand that the content is harder for my level at the time, so I decided to just get stronger. If you actually work hard in training, you wouldn't have any problem and I really feel a sense of accomplishment when I can finally solo them.

    Still doesn't give me incentive to run dungeons tho, especially long ones (looking at you Fiodh and Coill) when the drop rate is abysmal.
    DanievictriaSirRyu
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,685
    Posts: 313
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    Absinthe wrote: »
    My main is supposed to be able to hold her own in the most difficult dungeons. But she can't even get past Fiodh intermediate. Of course, she can't even get past that stupid dragon in memento and that is supposed to be basic/fledgling+. So for all I know even Alby basic is out of her league. LOL

    I had a lot of trouble with that dragon with my main too. Many embarrassing deaths were suffered. However, if your main is a human, you can try the strategy that I used to finally defeat it:

    Prep:
    1. Acquire Battlefield Overture, Enduring Melody, the Healing spell, and Final Hit.
    2. Get Song to rank 5.
    3. Get a pair of Hobnail Knuckles and put the Good enchantment on them (upgrades optional).
    4. Stock up on HP potions of the 50 HP rank and higher, bandages, and some Mana potions.

    Execution:
    1. When you're just out of agro range of the dragon, summon a pet. It doesn't have to be a fancy cash shop pet, even a basic pet like your free horse will do. Put it in Assist mode so it can tank for you a little, then use Battlefield Overture, activate Final Hit, and attack the dragon.
    2. Hit the dragon non-stop until Final Hit ends. If it starts doing Thunder, Fireball, or the skull or question mark icon appears above its head, run out of the way to avoid getting hit. If you do get hit, guzzle some potions immediately and start retreating.
    3. Retreat. The dragon will only chase you so far if you're its target. If your pet is its target, let it keep tanking until you're at a safe distance (the length between the circle of arches and the black pillars is what you're aiming for), recall your pet, and start recovering with healing magic, Enduring Melody, Rest, Mana potions, and a phoenix feather, healing magic, and bandages for your pet if it got knocked out.
    4. Once you're fully recovered, start with step 1 all over again. Repeat until that bony lizard is dead.

    It's still a tough fight, and this strategy does take quite a while to pull off (my main was at cumulative level 700+ and CP-wise on par with Red Bears when I beat the dragon), but it works. I was taking about 9%-11% of its health off per round on average, so it's pretty effective (I was also using a level 24-ish Milkyway Pegasus from the homestead event a while back). I don't know what to do with an elf or giant, though. I know that Final Hit isn't a viable move, but maybe an elf with high intelligence, snap cast, and Thunder might be able to do the trick. As for a giant...Dear crap, i need to spend more time with my giant alt! XD
  • SylviaWolfeSylviaWolfe
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,310
    Posts: 342
    Member
    AgentJean wrote: »
    Here's a better solution.

    Restore the dungeons to the way they were before the Revamp then add a Hard mode altar room to all dungeons for people who want to can slog their way through these insane dungeons that don't really justify the slog fest that they are.

    These dungeons are chasing new players away!!!!!!!

    I agree. Dungeoning used to be one of the main draws for me as a player. Now I'm unmotivated to do them because after a certain amount of bludgeoning hp walls for absolutely zero reward (unless it's an xp event) it gets dull, assuming you can even get into the dungeon. I'm all for increasing dungeon difficulty since late/endgame folks need a challenge but when "difficulty" = "more time to kill enemies" rather than improving enemy AI or making me think, then it's just tedious.
    YokkaichiCICILIA
  • LiyetaLiyeta
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,060
    Posts: 764
    Member
    Mangled pass have 7 day expiration and adv hm pass have 7 day expiration. Basically people have 14 day to gather a party thats not too bad in my opinion.

    Dungeon mob is pretty okay ish too, just use aoe skill for first and second floor. For third floor its basically a bash fest.

    I usually use npc bought dagger and shuriken to run adv hm dungeon. Or else the cost for a run would be too high.

    The thing with dungeon revamp is, i can't really profit from it.
    Things would be better if:

    1. Tiro age pots is priced 50-100k instead of 400k.
    2. Basic-adv dungeon drop material to craft our own restorative potion.
    3. Fine leather, finest leather, and wood board drop more often in the dungeon.
    4. Additional end chest in every adv and adv hm dungeon.

    I don't mind with the current dungeon revamp but loosing money for doing a run doesn't really sit well with me.
  • lidiyalidiya
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,325
    Posts: 335
    Member
    Redetsu wrote: »
    I feel like they should have done the revamp only for the basic difficulty and up and left the normal version alone. At least then, newer players could do most dungeons, maybe even learn how to fight each kind of monster. Then maybe if they find a basic pass or higher and try it out, they'll realize the difficulty and possibly practice on the normal version instead, or get friends, maybe form a party to do it then.

    But at least let them experience the dungeon without the entrance being enemies that feel like they're the ancient version. That could be rather discouraging in trying the dungeons again for a bit, while on the other-hand, with shadow missions, the difficulty seems more fair for newer players and usually faster to finish

    There was actually an even easier method that could have all the difficulties. Just make a new alter to get in the game like those hardmode versions they did prior in a new room. That way the players could have had the harder dungeons that wanted them, and new players could get the pages, and crap they need at a normal rate, and get used to the dungeon.

    In it's current form the drop rates for items are horrendous, the gold dropped is mediocre, and you don't proficiency up gear from what I've seen as it seems they forgot to raise the monsters CP(I don't mod so I can't say the actual in game CP, but based it on how they are all still weakest to me)... even though it takes longer to kill them.
  • AgentJeanAgentJean
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,380
    Posts: 200
    Member
    CapnRecon wrote: »
    I'm not running a five floor dungeon to get 200 gold, or jerk around trying to get one of those godforsaken "For one, For two, For three" etc. passes, only to get, you guessed it, 200 gold. A lot of the dungeons ended up much shorter floor-wise, but in turn enemies were beefed up because everyone complained that the enemies were "too easy".

    When people did the dungeons back in Pre-Genesis, the level they were at are equivalent to what we have now. And a new player shouldn't expect to plow through every dungeon on their first try. They need to work on their characters like the rest of us did to become strong enough to overcome the dungeon.

    <snip>


    TL;DR cAsUls ShUlD sTiCk To AlBy NoRmAl

    Back in the days of G1(way back when we had to walk from Tir down to Bangor, up hill both ways, in the snow with no horse , or SHOES) it was possible for a fairly new player(level 100/150) to solo Barri up to the boss room. It wasn't a cake-walk and you probably die a few times but if you played it smart you could make it to the boss room, I know because I would spam Barri for ores to sell back in early 2008 when mabi first came out.

    Today The mabi population is dwindling. Why because you have old players leaving because they are getting bored and new players don't stick around that long because they'll try something like Barri or Randal, get completely slaughtered with absolutely no hope of ever being able to hold their own in such a basic dungeon any time soon beause the damage output requirements are insane. That will scare them off from even attempting the mainstream quests that sends them to those dungeons and then with nothing to do in the Game but relay on other people for everything they just quit.

    G1-G3 dungeon mobs should NOT have as much HP as Generation Boss or a mob from Scathach beach which we can all agree is not a place for new players.


    SylviaWolfeZeoWolfandWolf
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,685
    Posts: 313
    Member
    AgentJean wrote: »
    CapnRecon wrote: »
    I'm not running a five floor dungeon to get 200 gold, or jerk around trying to get one of those godforsaken "For one, For two, For three" etc. passes, only to get, you guessed it, 200 gold. A lot of the dungeons ended up much shorter floor-wise, but in turn enemies were beefed up because everyone complained that the enemies were "too easy".

    When people did the dungeons back in Pre-Genesis, the level they were at are equivalent to what we have now. And a new player shouldn't expect to plow through every dungeon on their first try. They need to work on their characters like the rest of us did to become strong enough to overcome the dungeon.

    <snip>


    TL;DR cAsUls ShUlD sTiCk To AlBy NoRmAl

    Back in the days of G1(way back when we had to walk from Tir down to Bangor, up hill both ways, in the snow with no horse , or SHOES) it was possible for a fairly new player(level 100/150) to solo Barri up to the boss room. It wasn't a cake-walk and you probably die a few times but if you played it smart you could make it to the boss room, I know because I would spam Barri for ores to sell back in early 2008 when mabi first came out.

    Today The mabi population is dwindling. Why because you have old players leaving because they are getting bored and new players don't stick around that long because they'll try something like Barri or Randal, get completely slaughtered with absolutely no hope of ever being able to hold their own in such a basic dungeon any time soon beause the damage output requirements are insane. That will scare them off from even attempting the mainstream quests that sends them to those dungeons and then with nothing to do in the Game but relay on other people for everything they just quit.

    G1-G3 dungeon mobs should NOT have as much HP as Generation Boss or a mob from Scathach beach which we can all agree is not a place for new players.


    Actually, the instances of the dungeons created by the special passes used for G1's missions (and probably G2 and G3 as well, though I haven't gotten to those yet) contain mobs and bosses that a newbie with a total level under 100 can take out without getting totally trashed. I beat most of G1solo with my main under total level 50 on my first talent with just basic combat skills, Fighter skills, Rest, Campfire, and First Aid at my disposal. I didn't even use my pets to help me fight or heal me, and I had no real problems until I hit the boss room in the Green Gem dungeon in Tir Na Nog (not that that's much to brag about, since the early Generations were nerfed a while before I joined).

    If letting newer players have ready access to a wider variety of dungeons early on is such a big concern, then they should just make Beginner passes for more of the tougher dungeons and call it a day. I always found it odd that Albey--the dungeon with the least need for an easy mode pass--is the only one that has one available, but places like Bari and Coil--which are key to the Blacksmithing skill and a skill quest, respectively--don't.

    In fact, it's almost hilarious that the game's easiest dungeon is the only one with an easy mode. I mean, what other game do you know does that? Sure, some games only let you play, like, the first half in easy mode or withhold the final boss battle or the true ending from you...but only letting the easiest level have an easy mode? LOL! That's ridiculous, man! XD
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    lidiya wrote: »
    Redetsu wrote: »
    I feel like they should have done the revamp only for the basic difficulty and up and left the normal version alone. At least then, newer players could do most dungeons, maybe even learn how to fight each kind of monster. Then maybe if they find a basic pass or higher and try it out, they'll realize the difficulty and possibly practice on the normal version instead, or get friends, maybe form a party to do it then.

    But at least let them experience the dungeon without the entrance being enemies that feel like they're the ancient version. That could be rather discouraging in trying the dungeons again for a bit, while on the other-hand, with shadow missions, the difficulty seems more fair for newer players and usually faster to finish

    There was actually an even easier method that could have all the difficulties. Just make a new alter to get in the game like those hardmode versions they did prior in a new room. That way the players could have had the harder dungeons that wanted them, and new players could get the pages, and crap they need at a normal rate, and get used to the dungeon.

    In it's current form the drop rates for items are horrendous, the gold dropped is mediocre, and you don't proficiency up gear from what I've seen as it seems they forgot to raise the monsters CP(I don't mod so I can't say the actual in game CP, but based it on how they are all still weakest to me)... even though it takes longer to kill them.

    I think that's the bigger issue here. The drop rates. I kind of agree that normal versions of all dungeons should be set back to what they were pre-update, but ALL versions of dungeons need to have their drop rates for items increased. I can understand mangled passes being rare, but is there any reason for regular passes to be oh so hard to get? And old items that are required for obtaining skills?? Heck, no one even bothers to make those boost pots that require those pure white dusts and stuff because not only is it hard to get enough of the mats (even after you slog through the dungeon again and again), the boost potion only gives you...what, 2% success rate for a SINGLE attempt at whatever craft you're doing?

    Whatever you may say about the difficulties of monsters, the drop rates of items definitely needs to be improved.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,440
    Posts: 384
    Member
    edited July 26, 2017
    And all of the nice virtual teamships and families who can no longer sleep well at night because of the four player limit and lack of unrestricted passes to do it with. I liked my team

    But now that it might actually prove to be fun, people can't run it with a full family//teamship because of the 4 player limit. Unless their 'do everything together' teams were already small to begin with
  • InfighterInfighter
    Mabinogi Rep: 925
    Posts: 38
    Member
    edited July 30, 2017
    IMO, they should just decrease the length of the regular dungeons by like 25-30%, cause shorter dungeon = less boring = fairly spamable = not minding low rates as the dungeon could be run easily. I also think that cutting the length would help GREATLY with obtaining passes easily as less time consumed to obtain passes means I can have enough time to farm enough passes to run higher difficulties consistently.

    They made a good start with Sidhe, it isn't a long dungeon, its mechanics are good, pleasing to the eyes, good music. Its fairly spamable to attempt more tries until you get the enchant like cadenza which is rare but I don't mind spamming it since there are other aspects like echo stones grade attempts that keeps me running the dungeon.
    Cscrimson
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 17,500
    Posts: 2,609
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    Monster CP broken too.. this is starting to really annoy me.
    Danievictria