Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the 16th Anniversary and VIP Renewal Update! https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/90098/16th-anniversary-and-vip-renewal-patch-notes-march-14th
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Idea of Change [Stats/Ability]

SeedThornsSeedThorns
Mabinogi Rep: 780
Posts: 11
Member
edited September 27, 2018 in General Chat
Suppose an idea of change. A change that will create a diversity of players, or a difference in play for players.
Suppose, leaving Ability Points (AP) as they are -increasing Rank tiers for skills, we remove the Stats (STR, DEX, INT, Will, and Luck) gained from skill ups. And instead, at each interval of the player's level, players gain Status Points (SP) to assign to any of those individual Stats.

i.e. For every 10 levels the player gets one SP to assign to a Stat.


Now, suppose this happens. For obvious reasons the Status cap of 1500 must be removed, not kept nor changed for diversity reasons. The reason for this is, if there were a cap then eventually all players would max out all their Stats -making this pointless. And so not only does it create diversity, it allows the players to spend all their SP on individual stats catered to their desires.


Another case is that each Stats should offer more unique options so players are more subjected to spend their SP on other Stats. This not only creates more diversity, giving players more options and build paths, but makes it more unique per individual (unless they follow a guide).
To give an example for what is meant, suppose a Mage player invests all his points on INT, giving him Magic Attack (MA) and Mana Points (MP). Now suppose this Mage player wants to have a shorter magic cast time, he can invest in DEX, increasing Balance, Accuracy and, now, Agility (AGI). Agility giving players faster movement speed, attack speed, and casting speed (Of course all weighed on a scale of balance). Of course this is just one hypothetical example, but is applicable, as Elves, magical creature, are higher on DEX and INT.
Another example is to have STR give Attack Damage for melee, and (Bow) Range attacks (Stronger string drawback), Health Points (HP), and etc. But at a certain threshold of STR characters gain the ability to dual wield certain weapons (doing so may nerf Final Hit (FH)).

i.e. 500 invested STR - dual wield daggers, 1,000 invested STR - dual wield swords, 1,500 - blunt weapons, 10,000 - two handed swords.


Expanding on the example above, it could have an adverse affect on characters (prejudice). Say, for example, in order to equip a Shield with a Wand the player must have ### invested in STR. So if Mage player did not invest any points into STR, he would have an extremely low HP, and also would be unable to equip a Shield with his wand.


One arguable debate is that it makes certain skills obsolete. What this means is that if the Mage player focuses only on INT, he would not benefit from using Puppetry. However, is that not unique? Not all players will be a Mage player and not all players will be a Puppeteer. Of course a player can still use all his skills/talents, however, that player should invest in balancing his Stats so that it's not skewed to one side.


Of course everything here is just an idea. An idea that I hope may come into fruition.
And everything should be viewed on scale of balance.. Where new numbers and scales must be generated for Stats outputting to each "options".
I can't help but feel like someone will bring this up.. But when I mentioned in the first paragraph to remove Stats from skill ups, I don't mean the benefits given for skill ups. I meant the +5 HP you would get if you skilled up Rest from A -> 9, or the +1 DEX and INT from Blacksmith Rank A -> 9.

Comments

  • JazmynJazmyn
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,595
    Posts: 1,009
    Member
    Is this the same idea as the potential level stat point distribution?
    BronzebreakGaby5011Callantheoffwithyourheads
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
    Posts: 1,066
    Member
    We already have that in the form of reforges and enchants. Someone fully invested into puppets their reforges and enchants will outdamage be by a lot if I were to use regular max damage setups. The problem is more that the skill sets aren't equal, less people being unique. Unfortunately this right here
    but makes it more unique per individual (unless they follow a guide).

    will be what happens. Someone will figure out the right distribution to give the most dps possible, then everyone would use that and you'd have less diversity.
    JazmynBronzebreakTwelie
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,065
    Posts: 1,230
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    But, this game already has individuality with talents, we can be every class in one go and in the end we are everything this game had to offer, having all increased stats and having all abilities in our disposal. Besides this idea will take the idea of us being Milletians away, your making us look more like NPCs.

    We are ment to be power creeped beings over time as we grow and gain power. Like the Avatar the last air bender to learn all elements to fight the firelord only this time we fight anything that threaten our friends or the world! Best part is every skill we learn we do it better because since our char is sorta immortal we have all the time to master every skill we come across being better than the originals.

    This game will not be Mabinogi at all if this idea were to take part, why not call it Fiesta or Grand fantasia if your into having restricted classes unable to be everything. I know you want to make this game better but this does not make the game any better infact i think you would piss off alot of the Mabi community or whats left of it. I know the game is broken with skills overshadowing another but that is what mabi skills is about actually for they are nothing but skills not abilities or power....just skills that you learn from others or books and fighting beings that were alot stronger than you. Your like a Mimic in the game from Musashi samurai legend who learn new skills by fighting nearly everything but different, very different but this is an idea from where im getting at. Besides getting all the skills the game had to offer will only be our BASE stats afterwards and now begins the questions, what talent should i focus on that i find the most fun? Then build your character to that talent with gear. Now Gear is what makes your character who he/she is now.

    Now about the cap in stats I bet the cap would have an increase once more skills are introduced to the game.

    You prob didn't read the lore of the game or get that far into it yet to understand the true beauty of the game by how it really is, this is far different from MANY mmorpg games out there and now you want to make this game like them??? No, just no you will make me quit the game once and for good....

    Of course this game also like many games have issues to still be fixed like Enchants overhaul change, life production skills, uncapping like ALOT of skills yet to have that rank1 or master title, and severe grind for renown to gain tiny bits of benefits from it.

    I may had come out rude or mean but this is how i feel about your idea and hope you take a closer look at Mabi for what it really is and not at its bones. I can't be the only one who felt like this ;-;

    JJ
  • SeedThornsSeedThorns
    Mabinogi Rep: 780
    Posts: 11
    Member
    Hmm..
    @Hellkaizer With my idea of a change that brings diversity and uniqueness, I don't see how Reforges and Enchants play into the same "form". With SP players are free to choose which stats they wish to invest in and will be limited to that investment as well. Of course, they can also choose to balance Stats allowing them to use all features of the game, Guns, Puppetry, Fighter, etc. While with your concept of understanding about Reforges and Enchants, I agree -they will make you stronger. However, because it seems you don't understand the underlying message, I disagree. You can have multiple gear with Reforges knitted to the skill set you're to use.
    For example, a player will have a Bohemian Set with the typical Damage Enchants and Reforge for Crash Shot while they use Bow/Crossbow.
    And when they're focusing mainly on Final Hit, they would have a set for Final Hit Reforges with the typical Damage Enchants. Given the player is near end game.. Which is what we see now. So almost every end game player will be the same.. Reforges for AoE mobs, and another for 1v1. While, personally, I don't see how giving the players the options to either fully invest in an individual stat, or, sparingly balancing each stat to use all functions of the game, will become like the above with Reforges. Say, Mage player who's invested all his points into INT giving him the most magic damage, won't be like a Warrior player who's invested in STR for combat stats and damage. Which ultimately proves the concept of diversity and uniqueness.

    @Alshian The very first paragraph pretty much contradicts with itself. Having multiple talents does not create individuality. Being every class in one go means everyone is the same, thus no individuality exists.
    The next point, which I'm having troubles understanding, is how it will make us less Milletians and more like NPC. We still have the ability to rebirth, giving more SP as we level -increasing stats that we choose. Players still have the option to balance all stats allowing them to use all skills.
    Honestly, when I was reading this, I got the impression you did not understand what mentioned in the post. How does what was suggested limit ourselves as you mentioned in the second and third paragraph?
    How does the idea suggested relate to other MMORPG? I've only played a couple outside of Nexon games, and so my view of it is limited. But I'm fairly confident no games work as mentioned in the above. Don't mention games similar to MapleStory.. Those stats are fixed.. i.e. If you're a warrior, you need STR.
    I don't believe I said the supposed idea will make the game better. Of course it would have a lot of issues of its own, but what the point is underlying is the concept of individuality and uniqueness among players. And I have not mentioned an issue with the current game, so I don't see why you're bringing it up.
    Lastly if you take a closer look at Mabinogi for what it really is and not at its bones, you'd understand eventually the game will change more than what it is now. Take the game from the initial release to a year after that, and a year after that.. The game is ever changing.
  • IAAWIAAW
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,285
    Posts: 131
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    In my mind, this is a system built for a different kind of game. Mabinogi's built around AP and building up skills in order to gain the stats necessary to benefit a set of skills. As a pure example, in regards to Magic you primarily need INT; while all Magic skills will offer INT in some form, you'll also want Musical Knowledge and Composing to Rank 1, as despite being primarily Music-focused skills they provide a healthy source of INT, which helps with Magic skills. A recent example is the Chain Slash skills Chain Impale, Raging Spike, and Spinning Slasher; all skills that, while not directly associated with Magic, provides INT. As another example, Fireball, despite being a Magic skill, provides STR for ranking it, so if you want to maximize your STR for your Melee damage, you would want to rank up Fireball to Rank 1 for the STR it provides.

    Another thing to remember that in regards to "uniqueness" and "individuality", when it comes to RPGs and even other games there will always be a meta. There will always be a specific set of skills or a specific path that results in accumulating the most power. As another example, this is why in MapleStory there's a community-managed tier list, rating each class based on their overall viability in terms of raiding and DPS. This happens because, again, there's a meta; a desire to find the most efficient way to generate the most DPS, and Mabinogi's no exception. The only difference is that in Mabinogi the free-form nature of gaining stats and building up skills allows any player to eventually branch out and utilize other forms of damage. And this is important as there are enemies in Mabinogi with Passive Defenses; enemies that may either resist or be outright immune to certain forms of damage. As an example, under your system if you focused solely on INT for Magic damage you would never be able to have the stats necessary to take on Zombies, which are immune to Magic. Sure, presumably you could still rank up Combat-related skills for the damage multipliers but those damage multipliers would be applied to an almost non-existent base Melee damage. You would have no Melee damage which means the mere existence of a Zombie would shut you down, period. Sure, partying is an option but you aren't always going to have a Combat-focused player to combat Magic-resistant enemies with. And sure, you could make the argument that under your proposed system it would still be possible for players to branch out and utilize other forms of combat depending on the situation, but even then the larger investment in other stats would mean that you'd not be improving your main form of attack.

    And that's not to mention that even in Mabinogi there are combat styles which fail in end-game scenarios due to simply lacking damage or even simple viability. Transformation Mastery and Alchemy are the first things that come to mind for me, personally. And going by your proposed system, assuming you'd need to invest in multiple stats for one reason or another (attack accuracy, damage, etc.), these two combat styles alone could potentially be punished even further. At least with Alchemy you can put the HP, MP, and SP that you gained from working on other skills towards Alchemical damage, which scales off of these three attributes alone, and at least with Transformation Mastery you can use transformations with larger hitboxes and access to Windmill in order to wipe out larger groups of enemies with Windmill spam.

    As for the lack of diversity? There's nothing stopping me from running around as a Master Lich and smashing things to death, shifting into a Chandelier Spider when I need to clear out multiple enemies with Windmill (which the Chandelier Spider's larger hitbox benefits from). There's nothing stopping me from having an Erg upgraded Great Mallet even though that might not be the "best" weapon to Erg. I can work on any set of skills I want, whether it's to gain stats or simply have another skillset to fight with. I can ignore any questline I want, for however long I want. I can fight in whatever equipment I want, too. There's no restriction on what I can do in Mabinogi; the only limiting factors are time, skill, and strength.

    There's nothing stopping anyone from starting out as an Alchemist and using solely Alchemy skills to fight with even though all newbies should technically be starting out as a Warrior and ranking Windmill to Rank 1 as soon as possible. There's nothing stopping anyone from devoting their time to only Life skills and ignoring Generations. There's nothing stopping anyone from simply spending all their time AFK in Dunbarton, much to the dismay of others. You can pursue anything in Mabinogi at your own pace, and in any way you want. It may not always be viable depending on the scenario (Passive Defenses being the main offender of this), but generally speaking you can tackle Mabinogi in your own way, and at your own pace.

    If that's somehow not diverse, then I don't know what in Mabinogi is.
    THICCthighssavelivesAlshianVeylaineJJ
  • Gaby5011Gaby5011
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,965
    Posts: 714
    Member
    Tl;dr

    However, can I move all of my HP and most of my stam to mana?
  • IAAWIAAW
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,285
    Posts: 131
    Member
    Gaby5011 wrote: »
    Tl;dr

    However, can I move all of my HP and most of my stam to mana?

    If you're talking about doing this under Mabinogi's current system, technically yes. Just chat at Duncan and have him reset your skills, and prioritize only ranking up skills that would add to Mana. Though with enough AP you'll probably wind up increasing HP and SP anyway, though I don't see how this is a problem since apparently one has to be "all or nothing" with their stat/skill allocation.
  • SeedThornsSeedThorns
    Mabinogi Rep: 780
    Posts: 11
    Member
    @ IAAW Thank you for actually providing a basis for argument. While I did think about the possible limitations ( least what I could think of) around the supposed idea, I still found it to be more satisfying to allow players to choose their own status. The premise around the idea of catering your stats to your liking means that players shouldn't invest one stats if they were soloing -which means, in your example, players will need to party with other players to kill zombies. Would this not bring about more diversity? Possibly more players? Again just going off what I think and my limited past experience. An example is MapleStory pre-big bang, why was the game so popular back then? Was it the party quests and monster carnival? Completion of Ludi pq required a diverse party. Monster Carnival 3v3, if you had godly gear, you would recruit lower levels or maybe a cleric so people will actually request a challenge. I know of people, including myself, who would die to maintain the level requirement to do either of those. However so, there are other options of dealing with mobs like zombies. One of which are pets.
    Lack of diversity? I did not say there was a problem with the current game, but I get where this is coming from. When I say all end game players will eventually be the same, I guess you could assume I meant it lacks diversity. Which is not what I mean in its entirety. I used it as an example to sway readers to understand my point of view. However the current game does not lack diversity. All I imposed as an idea was one that would create more diversity and uniqueness in play style. And I don't know why you emphasized "restriction".. Like with diversity, I never said the current game restricted players. Unless there's something I said that seems to sway towards it?
    Lastly, I don't know what your second last paragraph is meant for.. I assume going off how your getting the premise that the game lacks diversity.. Yes by all means anyone can do anything, even training alchemy first. And with SP, it would make it easier than having players start with Combat first!


    What I find to be the most challenging issue for introducing SP is it will eventually lead us back in circle.. As the only way I can see it being balance would be a curve, which will undoubtedly reach a point that it no longer is reasonable to invest any more points into a certain stat.. Thus making all end game players the same.
  • IAAWIAAW
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,285
    Posts: 131
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    Well, assuming you're going by how AP is gained (1 SP per level) and going by how Potential stat allocation works (stat allocation cost increasing by 1 for every 5 SP applied in a single stat), I could imagine getting a single point increase in a specific stat becoming far more costly as the cost increases. As an example, 5 STR would cost 5 SP, but getting to 10 STR would cost 10 SP (for a total of 15 SP spent for +10 to STR), and so on; because of this, the cost could increase dramatically as you continue to invest in a single stat, perhaps even more so than our current AP-dependent system. Obviously this scaling in cost wouldn't apply if you were to begin investing in a different stat, but even still that's something to think about, though this depends on if a SP-dependent system would use the Potential SP system for a basis.

    As for party requirements, party requirements frustrate me. I like being able to do things alone; that's just a personal preference of mine. And I think forcing players to party up to tackle content can be frustrating. That's not to say parties should be discouraged just to better support solo play; I just think there should be viability for both styles to be effective depending on the scenario, but obviously every scenario can't be treated the same, especially if you're intending a certain piece of content to be tackled while in a group. I don't think forcing party play just to take on a group of zombies is as ideal as encouraging party play in order to either more easily tackle a group of zombies or to tackle a raid boss. I know pets are a thing too, but not everyone can or will be buying pets and the limited timer means you can't keep a pet out forever.

    In respect to MapleStory I think the appeal towards MapleStory pre-Big Bang was that the world felt massive; you couldn't just easily fast travel to different areas and there were multiple screens of enemies and varied areas to make trekking between different towns and locales interesting. The slower leveling pace also meant that you were more encouraged to explore the world at a slower pace, tackling quests as you went on. Not everyone likes this kind of gameplay though, which is why in Mabinogi's case you'll have players who preferred how Mabinogi was balanced pre-Genesis and players who prefer Mabinogi's current balance. And sure, my fondest memories of MapleStory were party quests, but since only one party could do a single party quest at a time, this caused infighting and carpal tunnel. Was even more frustrating since I was one of those players who wanted to complete every quest in the game. I'm kind of this way in Mabinogi as well but since I hit another party requirement wall in Shakespeare I probably won't be finishing the rest of my Generations anytime soon, but I suppose that's a first world problem more than anything.
  • Gaby5011Gaby5011
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,965
    Posts: 714
    Member
    edited September 28, 2018
    IAAW wrote: »
    Gaby5011 wrote: »
    Tl;dr

    However, can I move all of my HP and most of my stam to mana?

    If you're talking about doing this under Mabinogi's current system, technically yes. Just chat at Duncan and have him reset your skills, and prioritize only ranking up skills that would add to Mana. Though with enough AP you'll probably wind up increasing HP and SP anyway, though I don't see how this is a problem since apparently one has to be "all or nothing" with their stat/skill allocation.

    I'm 20k total my mana is almost fully capped from skills lol*

    *Missing 10ish from synthesis
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
    Posts: 1,066
    Member
    edited September 29, 2018
    Say, Mage player who's invested all his points into INT giving him the most magic damage, won't be like a Warrior player who's invested in STR for combat stats and damage. Which ultimately proves the concept of diversity and uniqueness.

    I know what you're trying to say, but basically all that you're suggesting is classes that force you to pick an option. In which case there's going to be a min/max build that's best, while some people will take a minor dip into something else to deal with mob immunity. I don't want classes in mabi. There'd be more diversity if skill sets were more balanced.
    Callanthe
  • ForeRuniaForeRunia
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,365
    Posts: 39
    Member
    edited September 29, 2018
    I'm not sure if I'm reading this post correctly, there's a lot of information, so excuse me if I've misunderstood anything.
    SeedThorns wrote: »
    Now, suppose this happens. For obvious reasons the Status cap of 1500 must be removed, not kept nor changed for diversity reasons. The reason for this is, if there were a cap then eventually all players would max out all their Stats -making this pointless. And so not only does it create diversity, it allows the players to spend all their SP on individual stats catered to their desires.
    Uncapping stats to allow this system to work as intended would break the game in the sense that it would need to be rebalanced from the ground up. I think it would be too stark a difference from how everyone is currently used to playing, and would turn off a lot of players from the Mabinogi they've grown accustomed to. Instead of reworking the system as a whole, I'd like to see something that expands upon the current one. Reason being I simply played this game because of how the AP system worked. If it worked like every other MMO out there, I likely wouldn't have continued to play.
    SeedThorns wrote: »
    Another case is that each Stats should offer more unique options so players are more subjected to spend their SP on other Stats. This not only creates more diversity, giving players more options and build paths, but makes it more unique per individual (unless they follow a guide).
    To give an example for what is meant, suppose a Mage player invests all his points on INT, giving him Magic Attack (MA) and Mana Points (MP). Now suppose this Mage player wants to have a shorter magic cast time, he can invest in DEX, increasing Balance, Accuracy and, now, Agility (AGI). Agility giving players faster movement speed, attack speed, and casting speed (Of course all weighed on a scale of balance). Of course this is just one hypothetical example, but is applicable, as Elves, magical creature, are higher on DEX and INT.
    Another example is to have STR give Attack Damage for melee, and (Bow) Range attacks (Stronger string drawback), Health Points (HP), and etc. But at a certain threshold of STR characters gain the ability to dual wield certain weapons (doing so may nerf Final Hit (FH)).
    Throughout the generations, countless times, we are shown that Millitians are beings that learn skills from others and can master everything. I think it would be cool to see a system that works with this idea, rather than against it. Instead of altering how stats work or are accumulated, why not change how talents interact with one another? Right now every talent is a standalone unless you want the stats from it for something else. Perhaps, in learning other skillsets, I've learned something to better my technique with my weapon of choice. Mastering two certain talents offers benefits, like charging magic quicker, or give a reason to blend multiple skillsets into a playstyle. We could learn these techniques through a system like Grandmasters or the Dan rank tests, rather than recieving the benefit purely because we played the game long enough to unlock them for free.

    I understand the intent of this suggestion was likely so a player could stick to the one class or set of skills they desired, but how do you learn anything in real life if you never broaden your horizon? It's the same thing with the stats. You don't become more dextrous by doing the exact same thing over and over. You train your hands in various situations to get them to work however you want. Sometimes learning something else can make something you were unable to do before a lot easier to accomplish. This same satisfaction is replicated in how, to get more DEX, you need to rank skills in other talents.
    SeedThorns wrote: »
    One arguable debate is that it makes certain skills obsolete. What this means is that if the Mage player focuses only on INT, he would not benefit from using Puppetry. However, is that not unique? Not all players will be a Mage player and not all players will be a Puppeteer. Of course a player can still use all his skills/talents, however, that player should invest in balancing his Stats so that it's not skewed to one side.
    Even though every player can do everything now, we can still choose what we want to do out of all of the options. It just so happens that a lot of people want efficiency, or the ability to keep up with others, and currently DPS is how you get that. End game players would still max everything out or, if skills are uncapped, they will find the max stat needed to complete all the content in the game with every talent and they will likely reach that. Then they'll just continue to raise their skills after that. In the end, everyone will still become a jack of all trades, it will just take longer to see that happening.