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Bottlenecks in crafting

HelsaHelsa
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in Feedback and Suggestions
1. Advancing of crafting skills hit a bottleneck when certain crafting materials necessary for advancing are difficult to come by in large numbers. Of particular importance is leather; it is required to advance the highest ranks of Tailoring and Blacksmithing. Since it is a random drop and required in large numbers, most people will just turn to AP/Brionac training and adventure seals. A skill that acts like Metal Conversion does with ingots or how Carpentry does with cuts of wood, working similarly with leather would allow folks to realistically consider advancing these skills the regular way.

2. Another bottleneck is the requirement for silk. Whereas the material for crafting it can be regularly gathered, better quality silks are a chance weave. Since silk requires gloves to make and the amounts needed to advance skills are large this can also encourage people to turn to AP/Brionac training and adventure seals. Why not allow weaving gloves to not only be repairable but upgradeable; increasing "drop" rates for better quality silks and increasing durability along with the bizarre combat upgrades that tools can get too.

3. Although not really a bottleneck issue, were weaving gloves repairable and upgradeable why not have the same for Metalurgy Sieves.

Helsa0151
Alexina

Comments

  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    1. When I started reading your post, I thought you were going to mention the rare craft materials like emblems and siren masks. Those really don't make much sense to me, thematically. But then I saw you were talking about very common material like leather. I don't like the four-tier material grade system either, but high grade leather is not that difficult to find or buy.

    2. Weaving gloves seem like a vehicle for the weaving reforges. Weaving gloves are also a 'tax' built into all player-produced thin threads. I'd like them to be repairable too.

    3. Sieves are repairable are they not?
    Bronzebreak
  • LeineiLeinei
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    Metallurgy sieves I think are repairable, but it seemed more convenient to simply load a pet with them and just switch to a new one each time one breaks.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    1. When I started reading your post, I thought you were going to mention the rare craft materials like emblems and siren masks. Those really don't make much sense to me, thematically. But then I saw you were talking about very common material like leather. I don't like the four-tier material grade system either, but high grade leather is not that difficult to find or buy.

    Cheap and Common leather can be found fairly regularly, indeed Ingredient Hunting helps with that, but for higher ranks of tailoring and blacksmith, Fine and Finest's are the required grades. Yes they can be purchased on Mondays for Adventure Seals, this being the other way players have to turn to Adventure Seals. However, due to the amount actually needed, it's best to spend the Adventure Seals on Training Seals instead. You can also buy leather from the market, when it is available in sufficient quantity, which for ranking purposes, is basically never. You could, say, spam HM SCC for Fine and Finests but the rate at which you acquire them versus the amount you need, for ranking those skills, will have you turning to AP/Brionac training and/or training seals, even if you combine all three of these. The issue is that the shear number required versus the rate you can get such amounts makes AP/Brionac training and/or training seals the more efficient method.
    2. Weaving gloves seem like a vehicle for the weaving reforges. Weaving gloves are also a 'tax' built into all player-produced thin threads. I'd like them to be repairable too.

    The main desire is for repairability, whereas upgradeabiltity is more of an "it would be nice". It WOULD be nice to be able to boost their durability.
    3. Sieves are repairable are they not?

    They are repairable but they are not upgradable. This isn't a major concern but rather also an "it would be nice". Boosting durability of them WOULD be nice.

    Bronzebreak
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Leinei wrote: »
    Metallurgy sieves I think are repairable, but it seemed more convenient to simply load a pet with them and just switch to a new one each time one breaks.

    Mhm, that's what I do, except I have them in one of my bags. But if I could upgrade their durability, I wouldn't need to carry so many or I could stay in the field longer. I listed this one third since it's not so much of an issue as the other two.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    There multiple problems that have created this problem with crafting.
    1. Leather. IRL leather is made from the process of tanning animal hides. In the game, leather is dropped from the animal/monster directly. While it is possible for some humanoid monsters to possess and drop leather, leather dropping from animals do not make sense. The game has bypassed the production of leather.

    2. Firewood: The game uses firewood from burning to crafting to construction. This is really lazy, because it is not good to do crafting and construction solely based off firewood.

    3. Large nails: Why should we need to punch and kill things for nails? We should be able to craft these with blacksmithing!

    There are so many things they just give us the final product when it would be better to enable us to craft them. I think that would help make players less AFK and more active.
    BronzebreakTHICCthighssavelivesYangKoete
  • HelsaHelsa
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    There multiple problems that have created this problem with crafting.
    1. Leather. IRL leather is made from the process of tanning animal hides. In the game, leather is dropped from the animal/monster directly. While it is possible for some humanoid monsters to possess and drop leather, leather dropping from animals do not make sense. The game has bypassed the production of leather.

    Stone monsters drop leather too . . . for some reason, just like monsters in the middle of the desert that, once in a while, drop an octopus.
    2. Firewood: The game uses firewood from burning to crafting to construction. This is really lazy, because it is not good to do crafting and construction solely based off firewood.

    I realize this won't address your concern, but why not have five branches make one regular firewood.
    3. Large nails: Why should we need to punch and kill things for nails? We should be able to craft these with blacksmithing!

    Totally. As it stands we literally have to steal them from the government.

    [

    Kensamaofmari
  • YangKoeteYangKoete
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    I agree; Large Nails should be craftable.

    2 Iron Ingots = 10 Nails perhaps?

    Either way, there's an easy way to get Fine/Finest Leather; Festia and events.

    Sadly, because they always make crafting stuff a part of events (JUST to make it harder to get rare items...), you can end up with a lot.
    Bronzebreak
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited October 17, 2018
    YangKoete wrote: »

    there's an easy way to get Fine/Finest Leather; Festia and events.

    you can end up with a lot.

    What kind of consistent rate of acquirement can be maintained in terms of Finest Leather per hour and Fine Leather per hour?
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Helsa wrote: »
    YangKoete wrote: »

    there's an easy way to get Fine/Finest Leather; Festia and events.

    you can end up with a lot.

    What kind of consistent rate of acquirement can be maintained in terms of Finest Leather per hour and Fine Leather per hour?

    Opening a lot of event gachas. In the fishing event, I've gotten about 5-10 of both combined per about 50-100 jars opened.
    It's better to loot people who dump them during events that give mats. You can get a lot.
    Bronzebreak
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Helsa wrote: »
    YangKoete wrote: »

    there's an easy way to get Fine/Finest Leather; Festia and events.

    you can end up with a lot.

    What kind of consistent rate of acquirement can be maintained in terms of Finest Leather per hour and Fine Leather per hour?

    Opening a lot of event gachas. In the fishing event, I've gotten about 5-10 of both combined per about 50-100 jars opened.
    It's better to loot people who dump them during events that give mats. You can get a lot.

    Okay, and indeed I did just that. Man, did I shamelessly bottom feed during both the ZERO and fishing events. After all that I got about 200 Finest and 200 Fine, and that was over 'what?' about a month or so? Bear in mind that was from events, so it's not a consistent source of leather. But what you are saying is consistent with my experience. I think then a consistent source of leather NOT based on events is going to be less than that, and probably by quite a bit. Now, to what I'm talking about:
    from say rank 9 Blacksmithing you'll need to make:
    - Plate Mail (3 fine leather straps each attempt)
    - Valencia's Cross Line Plate Armor (Giant) (5 fine leather strap per attempt)
    - Valencia's Cross Line Plate Armor (M) (3 finest leather strap per attempt)
    - Valencia's Cross Line Plate Armor (F) (4 Finest leather strap per attempt)
    - Dustin Silver Knight Armor (5 Fine and 5 Finest leather strap per attempt)

    - Light Hetero Kite Shield (2 Fine Leather strap per attempt and this is a lucky drop scroll)
    - Pelican Protector (2 Fine leather strap per attempt)
    - Valencia's Cross Line Plate Gauntlet (Giant) (2 Fine leather strap per attempt)
    - Valencia's Cross Line Plate Boots (3 Fine leather strap per attempt)

    Even with current level 200 experience bonus applying to Blacksmithing, you will need hundreds and hundreds of successes. Add to that the fact you will also get fails which consume materiel and baring in mind that each attempt is several straps and you'll see that folks will turn to alternate methods of ranking the skill.

    Now, I haven't even talked about Tailoring and mastering them both yet!

    So, wouldn't adding a skill that lets you upgrade leather the way you can with ingots, ores, and firewood make the game better?
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    The events have been providing an oversupply of mats from its rewards which eventually affects the real supply. Event missions where monsters drop mats is a different story, those are better for supply management.

    If one takes the time to collect all their drops in dungeoning for these mats, I would expect a similar rate for the supply, higher if you choose the proper level dungeon where the proper mobs that drop them are available.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    The events have been providing an oversupply of mats from its rewards which eventually affects the real supply. Event missions where monsters drop mats is a different story, those are better for supply management.

    If one takes the time to collect all their drops in dungeoning for these mats, I would expect a similar rate for the supply, higher if you choose the proper level dungeon where the proper mobs that drop them are available.

    I can do SCC HM in about 5-10 minutes. In one run I will get 0-3 Fine/Finest leather. So that would average about 12 Fine/Finest per hour. This drop rate is fine for a one-off, say, you're making armour for a friend, but to rank then master Blacksmithing you are going to need hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Sure you can "take the time to collect", but if you're ranking and mastering Blacksmithing why would you bother when AP/Brionac training or training seals is faster and less effort. A skill that would allow you to upgrade leather in the way you can with ores, ingots, and firewood would make the "normal" way of ranking and mastering Blacksmithing something to actually consider.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Helsa wrote: »
    The events have been providing an oversupply of mats from its rewards which eventually affects the real supply. Event missions where monsters drop mats is a different story, those are better for supply management.

    If one takes the time to collect all their drops in dungeoning for these mats, I would expect a similar rate for the supply, higher if you choose the proper level dungeon where the proper mobs that drop them are available.

    I can do SCC HM in about 5-10 minutes. In one run I will get 0-3 Fine/Finest leather. So that would average about 12 Fine/Finest per hour. This drop rate is fine for a one-off, say, you're making armour for a friend, but to rank then master Blacksmithing you are going to need hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Sure you can "take the time to collect", but if you're ranking and mastering Blacksmithing why would you bother when AP/Brionac training or training seals is faster and less effort. A skill that would allow you to upgrade leather in the way you can with ores, ingots, and firewood would make the "normal" way of ranking and mastering Blacksmithing something to actually consider.

    Part of the problems of crafting and training.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    Give Ethna big jaspers for a chance at getting 10x Finest Leather.
    Bronzebreak
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Give Ethna big jaspers for a chance at getting 10x Finest Leather.

    Sure but now you've transferred finding leather in large numbers to finding big Jaspers in large numbers. I suspect just going after leather would be quicker. Maybe not, I haven't tried "hunting" big Jaspers.
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Give Ethna big jaspers for a chance at getting 10x Finest Leather.

    Sure but now you've transferred finding leather in large numbers to finding big Jaspers in large numbers. I suspect just going after leather would be quicker. Maybe not, I haven't tried "hunting" big Jaspers.

    Metallurgy with the required gear and skills gives you 'bout 1 per ten minutes.

    Auction House tends to hold gems for ~5k (even up to 10cm), especially with events handing 'em out like candy.

    Or, y'know, the ground while aforementioned events are active.
    Jazmyn
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Give Ethna big jaspers for a chance at getting 10x Finest Leather.

    Sure but now you've transferred finding leather in large numbers to finding big Jaspers in large numbers. I suspect just going after leather would be quicker. Maybe not, I haven't tried "hunting" big Jaspers.

    Metallurgy with the required gear and skills gives you 'bout 1 per ten minutes.

    Auction House tends to hold gems for ~5k (even up to 10cm), especially with events handing 'em out like candy.

    Or, y'know, the ground while aforementioned events are active.

    According to the wiki, Ethna wants them to be 2.27cm or bigger which is not too bad. To get Jaspers by Metalurgy it must be on a beach, while the sun is up, and it's not raining or cloudy. After all that there are still other gems you might get with the RNG not to mention the size requirement. It's not unusual to get a gem bigger than 2.27 while sand sifting but most the time you don't. The time spent doing this would probably be better spent just doing HM SM's, say SCC.

    You can buy them from market but will it have enough for the amount you'll need? Probably not.

    There are drops from events that are providing them; there was a recent one that did so but again would it provide enough? And what of people who decide to start working on this when there hasn't been an event; they'd have to wait for an event. So in the meantime all they can do is go look for drops.

    All this should provide enough leather to gain a level or two but then the supply is exhausted and you have to wait for another event. So the end result is folks are using still using brionac/AP training or adventure seals, despite all this. So a skill that would let you upgrade leather like you can with firewood, ores, and ingots would make folks consider actually training the skill.
  • Animelove89Animelove89
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    I think the weaving gloves need an upgrade in durability or repairability

    Doing so may add new reforge bonuses (common silk glove with reforge craft more common silk etcs)

    This will also make people hate it because who want a random common silk success on a dustin glove or whatever
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    I think the weaving gloves need an upgrade in durability or repairability

    Doing so may add new reforge bonuses (common silk glove with reforge craft more common silk etcs)

    This will also make people hate it because who want a random common silk success on a dustin glove or whatever

    Here's a logic question
    Why is there a glove for weaving in the first place? Isn't it usually better when weaving to be felt with your bare hands and fingers?
    Bronzebreak
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Here's a logic question
    Why is there a glove for weaving in the first place? Isn't it usually better when weaving to be felt with your bare hands and fingers?

    They are a thing. The first hit there is from Alibaba which is the Chinese version of Amazon. Since silk as a weaving material originated in China, they must know what they're doing and I suppose you really do need gloves for it. It probably has something to do with either silk being delicate or due to the cross section of the fibers the gloves are need to protect the hands from being chewed up; one or the other.