[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the
Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!
Comments
I understood what you meant but didn't think the part you were trying to emphasize was important enough to delve into. I've been using PoE as an example constantly and people keep progressing in that game until endgame constantly. I don't believe players would stop playing out of the fear of them dying because you simply come back after death with a bank full of gold, weapons, and things you would have stocked up on.
Your point about not being able to do multiple playthroughs of Mabi is incredibly wrong. The most unique part of a character, in this game, is early game where you're choosing your first talent. If you play like a boring person and build up the same skills over and over because it's the safe build, you will probably have a boring time. That's honestly on you. A player could go Close Combat as a Giant, die, and restart as a Puppeteer human if they wanted. Their friends who didn't die will be waiting for them to come back and might help them powerlevel up some.
As for monetization, you'd be surprised what people spend money on. I'm repeating myself again but some people might buy flashy clothes and then when it's time to fight, put them away in the wardrobe. You don't lose them. I never said you did. Only bring what you think you could go without. Players who play in a permadeath server would have to see that it's a permadeath server.
You don't know this. They could run the cash shop as usual and could still make money. Not to mention this is more of a mode than an a permanent stay server. If someone was comfortable on the server, there's no reason they wouldn't use the cash shop. Nexon patched our Mabi with 100% repairs which invalidated repair protection potions. It's understandable Soul Stones would be invalidated on the Permadeath server. This also doesn't remove them from the 4 other servers that you seem to be forgetting. We can over and underestimate how much it costs to sustain a server but it's up to Nexon and I hope they consider this idea.
A permadeath server is just that. If people were just going to be chickening out in Dunbarton, too afraid to go anywhere, I'm sure they would much rather play on the normal server. Even though this is an very unlikely scenario.
"But why is it not the right game? Realistic decision making would be "Do I spend 2 hours grinding Ciar for money so I can have a nice stock of potions or do I just finish G3 and fight Cromm with the amount I have?"
"Should I run Rabbie for the Thunder page now or wait until my other magic is maxed out?"
"Should I trust this guy in Shadow Cast City won't kill me with Adniels or do I just do the run?"
The danger makes the rewards feel more rewarding. You sound like you wouldn't want to play on the server and that's fine but that doesn't make the idea of a server like this bad at all.
I think we're disagreeing on one thing: though I'm not familiar with Path of Exile, I've played enough Shiren the Wanderer to know "permadeath" works well when you can put away your best gear for further use. Though this doesn't prevent Mabi players from doing the same, Milletians become strong through stats mostly, and equipment is a bonus; the other "permadeath" games I know are the opposite. i.e. Giving an Apprentice Warrior two Celtic Royal Knight Swords will not enable them to progress much, since the real damage modifiers lie in their base stats, which they get from leveling their skills. On the other hand, in Shiren the Wanderer, levelling is nice, but your gear is what really matters.
With Mabi's gameplay centered on levelling skills to get stronger, the loss of this progress will put players back far more than in other games, where your goal is to amass gold and end-game gear. At its core, the gameplay mechanics of Mabi are not meant for such a playstyle, and my argument is that Nexon would have to change some things to make it work; thus, why they need to make it profitable/sustainable (without regards to the revenue of the other servers).
I don't understand your reasoning. My belief is that everyone will have a main on a seperate server. As such, if they've got 100$ to drop on the newest gacha, there's no reason for them to spend it on their permadeath character, when they could get a chance at the featured items on their main. And, disregarding a few wealthy exceptions, no one would spend on gacha for both their main and permadeath character.
Edit:
The difference lies in the fact in most permadeath games, you dismiss content to avoid dying. For example, not looting a room because you aren't sure you're capable of handling its content. Mabi is built differently: dungeons are linear (you cannot skip a room) and there is little story content whose fights you can bypass. Fight-related decisions, or decisions to grind more before attempting mandatory content (like getting the Thunder pages to get the skill) isn't decision-based, it's just delaying the inevitable.
1. You didn't get the analogy. That's okay. Basically it's not a zero-sum game. Do you know what that means? I'm saying that having a Permadeath server doesn't not take away from the population of the other servers. People will go back to the other servers when they want to. Their character in the Permadeath server would be more like a "run".
2. Already addressed
3. What I said was "
Doing G21 or G22 for the first time. First Time. It's your risk but it's safer to finish the generation in a normal server than to tackle it on a permadeath server. Up to the individual.
4.
Please use reading comprehension skills and critical thinking. I'm not asking much.
No rollbacks. If you're experiencing lag on the permadeath server then hmmmm... I don't know... log out??? Things happen. Life happens. etc. You can't cry if you choose to stick around while the server is doing backflips and then be mad at Nexon if you die. And I would expect you as a reasonable person on the forums to be one of the people quelling the outrage. Doing your part as a community member and not just letting Nexon take heat because some guy decided to stay on the laggy death server.
This isn't controversial. Nexon is the big boss at the end of the day. It's not my job to do their accounting. This forum is simply throw an idea into a hat and sometimes people comment on it. So far all of the comments have been the same and I've been answering them but then new people appear who didn't read the previous posts and I have to explain over again. I'm not "vehemently defending". I'm just being extremely patient and trying to clear misunderstandings.
Already addressed but I'll say it again. Risk is up to the risk taker. Life Skillers can manage with little to no risk by buying materials or gathering in safe areas. What life skillers can make will be dictated by the progress of the players in the server.
Trading items to your friends so you don't lose them is fine. You don't have them when you die and you can't trade when dead anyway. Report bots like any other bot. Multiple issues can be tackled at the same time. Your whole post seems very aggressive. It's upsetting because considering you've been here for a while liking other posts but you didn't take the time read any of mine.
I agree with Mabinogi being more focused around your character than your gear but I disagree with you about how much of an effect gear has on your capabilities. Celtic Royal Knight Sword are definitely better than starting with 2 unupgraded short swords. Personally I would pick an upgraded weapon with damage enchants and good balance as a starter weapon to leave in the bank for fast leveling.
Sure people spend money on their main. I'm sure some people would also spend money on this server I'm proposing but that's really not a point I'm trying to make. People would be playing this not as an alternative to the main server but as an option fun side server that they can log on at any time for the glory of it. Monetization and Gacha is really irrelevant. Cash shop there if people want to use it. That's all that matters imho.
You can use a wing of goddess to get you out of a dungeon. Fight until you can't and then run. For story content, I would imagine you know what's coming. Don't do it if it's too hard for your character. Or take the risk and be one of the few characters on the server with Crusader Skills. Up to you.
Thunder is NOT mandatory. If the server were real I would tell you to get the pages when you're ready or get a party together first. Otherwise, go train something else. Again you're another person thinking "I need to max all my skills" because that's how players approach it on the servers now. A few deaths and restarts would fix it but we can't do that and all we can do is go through hypothetical situations. Having Thunder as a mage would be very valuable and you could even restock on Thunder Pages in the off-chance you die.
You still miss the bare minimum; programming.
I know nothing of "Path of Exile", and i'm not going to pretend like I do. I know that trying to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges, though.
You still don't understand the problem with lag, and if you really think what's left of this playerbase could be patient in the scenarios you have provided, then you clearly have not played long at all.
As for the spoilers, I'm going to just say that with a topic like this, you should expect people bringing up specific parts of the game, like a part of the storyline you have not yet reached.
My apologies if I came off as hostile toward you. It was not my intention, I just get a little too passionate when I write sometimes. No hard feelings.
Also, I liked other's posts because I was agreeing with their reasoning.
Do you really not understand what a fallacious argument that is, saying "Nexon is not that bad", versus saying "Nexon wouldn't do that"? I could say of my coworker, who stole food from a puppy, "Hey, he's at least not Ted Bundy!" Except this deflects the arguments to another example entirely, that doesn't dismiss the fact that my coworker is a jerk for stealing food from a puppy.
Apologies, but I think that example should clarify why it is bad logic.
I wasn't saying it was going to drain players, but the opposite. People simply wouldn't play it.
Mabinogi is a game requiring years of investment. With Terraria and Path of Exile, those games are far more heavily reliant on equipment; this is why monetization doesn't work for POE, because it would only anger the playerbase. The investment we lose would not be equipment, but years worth of progress.
With something like Dark Souls or Terraria, the things we lose are far more manageable than a Mabinogi character, and having great loss may encourage caution, but it would also encourage people quitting. There is no quick way to power in Mabinogi, and such a steep loss would make most veterans leave without significant changes. Dark Souls may be difficult, but the steep loss in souls isn't so much as to keep one from playing.
In particular, I would recommend much more experience rewards, and much less experience required, alongside wholesale AP reduction costs.
In terms of skills, we had significant changes to playstyle regarding Bash, as well as several AOEs like Windmill be eschewed for Chains, snapcast fireballs, and such. How hydra and hide is how I handle certain content, or how Nexon neglects talents like Archery to be reforge reliant to Fighter being absolutely abyssmal, or how about puppetry? Alchemy? It is not at all fundementally the same game, because those tricks have been rendered near obsolete the higher leveled a player is.
I was comparing Vindictus, not merely in physical gameplay, but also because of the difficulty spike overall. Something that has been exploited to sell Goddess Graces as Arcade machines sold continues, alongside just bad design with raid bosses (See Kraken in particular).
Nexon wouldn't do it, precisely because it wouldn't make them money. "If they wanted to, they could?" They don't, because it is fair to assume it wouldn't make money, for the reasons I listed previously.
Lag isn't as bad as it used to be coming from someone not in Cali where it's lagless.
Not sure what you mean by programming but as much as the devs are making new events, I'm sure they can change the Wait for Rescue button into a Restart button.
You didn't even acknowledge his argument on how an extremely steep loss discourages people from attempting permadeath. You just disagreed on the gear issue by a minor extent....
I think the issue here is you telling others how wise players would attempt surpassing certain obstacles, versus us explaining how players would actually react.
Again I disagree with how much investment is needed to have a decently strong character in Mabi. After 3 weeks my character might not be able to hit 5000 damage smashes but I could probably manage 2000 and with 2000 damage you can do a lot in this game.
Also I get what you're saying about Nexon but I disagree there too. I feel that where you see Nexon as Bad, I see Nexon as Neutral if not Good. I gave examples of worse offences to build a spectrum. While, yes, there might be better companies, I see Nexon doing alright.
About losing "years of progress". You don't lose years of progress unless you actually last more than a year. Everyone would be on the same starting line and people who manage to stay alive deserve to keep their progress. When you're tired of dying, you go back to Ruairi or Tarlach or wherever and cool off there.
About skills being rendered obsolete, that's only if you choose to play like that. Running only what's most effective at all times. That's boring to me. I use windmill because I'm mainly melee and it's Dan 3 with a short cooldown. If you want to use Kunai Storm or Chain Burst or whatever move is similar that's up to you. No one is forcing you. The meta isn't holding a sword to your head.
Oh I'm sorry. Where in
does he mention that? I'm reading so much but I miss one thing that I've already answered and start posting memes. Meanwhile you read nothing I'm writing.
There are people who like challenge. Steep loss steers away people who don't like that style of gameplay. Just because 5+ people comment on my thread saying "I wouldn't like that" doesn't mean no one would. No one would force you to play on the server just like no one forces you so restore fossils or hot-air balloon, or raft, or participate in Festia and we've addressed literally everything from Monetization to Server Merges.
How did players react to the homestead expansion update? That's about as relevant as how players would react to this. We don't know how people would react so once it's up and people start whining on the forums about how "I perma-died on the perma-death server!!" then we can make changes and adjust. But you've got me talking like this is already implemented but it's not. It's just a suggestion.
I get what you're saying but that sounds to me like
Let's not do anything new until Mabi is fixed.
They're already doing new stuff though. They've expanded flight zones even though it could've ended up a broken mess. They've expanded Belvast Island. They're still adding generation stories. Why not add something else that's literally a copy/paste of what we already have with limits?
No reason not to try. I'm not rallying millions of people behind me on this. It's just an idea I've had and I'm seeing if they'll take it.
The point is to have a challenging server that forces one to make tough decisions that have an impact on one's survival. You would have to set a lot of rules so players cannot do certain actions that will negatively affect someone else's gameplay on the server that may also have real life social implications (more than the existing amount).
Also, what content will be available? Will players be running through the same storylines? And speaking of storylines, if one dies and restarts, do they have to do it all over? Player patience is very lacking and I doubt most people don't want to take up such a challenge that frustrates them.
In the end, only a small group of people are up for this challenge, while there would be more work than gain if such a venture was to go forward.
With the a sale of Nexon and its assets expected, whoever the buyer(s) may be, will look for what helps keep the flow of profit.
At this moment, this concept would not be profitable for the game or increase profitability of the game.
It's a niche market with little dividends
What don't you understand from my explanation?
Lol Shark Tank. Let's end the business meme.
-It's new and interesting
-With appropriate advertising it can draw in players who may have quit or new player interested in the challenge
-Someone get me an estimate on server costs. I'll pay for the dang thing myself if that's really the issue here.
On the hardcore server it's just as I said in the OP. You can get killed in Shadow Cast, you can die to Adniels. I assumed it was obvious that dying in PvP wouldn't count but let's add that to be sure. Everyone plays like in the normal server. The idea is that it's harder to finish some storylines without dying so the Transformation or skills you acquire can make you a more valuable player when it comes to guilds and parties. I think there's ton's of player patience considering people can mindlessly run Conflict or Martial Arts tourney for hours with no breaks.
I get what you said but I'm asking why does this not work for Mabi? You can still make the tough decisions to survive and sure there's no end of the game but the reward is to be able to make it far and remain alive. Things like bragging rights, gear from strong monsters, high damage numbers. They would all be things you worked past the danger for.
How does it not work? Someone could die in Hardcore Mabi, their name could scroll across the top of the screen "Noobslayer64 has died." They start over and start working on their character again. You still have your pets, they're just level 1. You still have your bank. You still have your homestead. You still have your wardrobe. You don't lose everything and you try not to die the next time. You slowly build up wealth to cushion your next death. I don't see how this doesn't work. Maybe it's not fun for everyone but nothing is really fun for everyone.
I think if this idea keeps getting refined as we go along and if others are willing to contribute, and compromises made it could be a decent idea. In the current raw state, it has been rejected by a fair number.
Mabinogi is a game where folks invest a great deal of time into building up their character. In the case of my example using Minecraft, it's not the character you build up it's your world. I used to play it with permadeath and trying to build up a world, sometimes I died stupidly. In retrospect I saw that it was entirely my own fault sure, but the experience sucked for me enough that I stopped playing it that way. Thank goodness I wasn't forced to have to continue that way, because of Survival mode, otherwise I would have walked away from the game. Games where you invest little can work this way but there is a point beyond which they don't. Back to my Minecraft example, I still play ironman, but now those games are not ambitious they are just kill the Enderdragon and call it quits, that's it. To kill the Enderdragon, I don't need to make a witchfarm that gives me piles of redstone dust per hour. But I do like to build such things. I've learned to my sorrow to do so in non-permadeath (ie survival mode). Mabinogi is a game where you must invest a lot of time (and should you chose, money, say in the form of reset caps or special passes to get items to satisfy a skill ranking quest) into improving your character, that money would be gone, and no one is going to consider that simply a fun challenge. Death in Mabinogi is inevitable no matter how clever or careful you are. Consider the boss in G21 part 3, post any video of someone beating him without dying. Permadeath server means no G22.