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New Talent: Fencing

nomigid15nomigid15
Mabinogi Rep: 3,270
Posts: 189
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edited October 21, 2019 in Feedback and Suggestions
Concept: Fencing is a melee combat Talent built around quick strikes and combination attacks to keep foes on the defensive.

Talent Title: Duelist

Main Weapon: Rapiers

Talent Icons

higqgs9.png
jxzhKjz.png
qcrwyl3.png
zwKxy8M.png

Base Stat Bonus

+5 Health
+5 Strength
+10 Dexterity

Leveling Stat Bonus

+0.5 Dexterity
+0.25 Strength

Aging Stat Bonus

+2 Dexterity
+1 Health

Skills

DdseMVh.png

Rapier Mastery
Passively increases one's Dexterity, Balance, and Critical chance when using rapiers.

xZfJsQF.png

Stance Shift
Switch between Forward Stance and Guarded Stance. When in the Forward Stance, the player's strikes will be faster and more precise. When in the Guarded Stance, the player's defensive and evasive abilities will be quicker and more effective.

6Woe4la.png

Lunge
Pierce a target with the rapier, inflicting high damage and a short stun.

57PNRu0.png

Parry
Allows one to block a physical attack, putting the attacker into a vulnerable state for a few seconds.

fBIZh1H.png

Riposte
Used after a successful Parry. Inflicts moderate damage and pushes the target back a distance.

orJwAec.png

Feint
Use a false attack to make an enemy waste a counterattack, leaving the target open to attack.

4W1bRqq.png

Trompement
Used after a successful Feint. The enemy will be knocked down and stunned for a long period of time.

zHU1pOT.png

Appel
Stomp loudly to startle nearby enemies and disrupt their aggro.

hFdJ4Fj.png

Chivalrous Spirit
While active, allows the player to teleport near an ally who's being attacked to aid them.
NanocaEiranonTHICCthighssavelivesWolfandWolfSheenaBlissfulkillVeylaineSaiannaFaybalKensamaofmariand 10 others.

Comments

  • NanocaNanoca
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    Would fit well with some of the swords already in game.
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    You mean these kinds? That's what this is meant for.

    (Also, I could've sworn there were more of them.)
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    You mean these kinds? That's what this is meant for.

    (Also, I could've sworn there were more of them.)

    There should be more of them huh. There's also the Pumpkin Rapier, Romeo's Rapier, and Lambent Light (Asuna's sword from SAO). I think also Hamlet's Sword also has the rapier pose. Anyways. I really love your idea! It would nice to have a special skillset for these swords since we have them.
  • SheenaSheena
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    edited April 30, 2018
    FENSHINGU
  • YangKoeteYangKoete
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,155
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    This sounds like a fun talent. ^w^ (Though I think fencing's for pansies...)
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    edited October 31, 2019
    I like the idea of rapiers getting their own mastery skill and maybe an extra skill or two, but I think most of the skills outlined in OP could be elegantly folded into existing skills.

    edit* updated images

    nomigid15 wrote: »
    6Woe4la.png
    Lunge
    Pierce a target with the rapier, inflicting high damage and a short stun.
    Could be integrated into smash. Different weapons have different smash effects already. Rapier's smash could do stun and pushback instead of knockdown.

    57PNRu0.png
    Parry
    Allows one to block a physical attack, putting the attacker into a vulnerable state for a few seconds.
    Could be integrated into defense. The description is already exactly what defense does. Maybe allow movement while defense is up while wielding a rapier, like shields do.

    fBIZh1H.png
    Riposte
    Used after a successful Parry. Inflicts moderate damage and pushes the target back a distance.
    Could be integrated into counterattack. I get that in the fencing world, a riposte is subtler and quicker than a counter-attack, but mabi's counterattack skill can cover both. We could get a special effect for counterattacking with a rapier, like much shorter skill animation or pushback in place of knockdown.

    orJwAec.png
    Feint
    Use a false attack to make an enemy waste a counterattack, leaving the target open to attack.
    I really like this idea. Three possibilities: 1) Make it a passive skill with cooldown that activates automatically when attacking and basically ignores the enemy's counterattack. Example, you attempt to smash an enemy and it puts up a counterattack at the last second. When you connect, Feint activates. You do a very brief feint animation and the enemy's counterattack goes away, and then immediately after your smash goes through. Feint goes into cooldown. 2) Make it an active skill with cooldown. When used, it simply removes the enemy's counterattack and stuns them. Alternatively, it will activate the enemy's counterattack (but no additional stun), which still leaves the enemy vulnerable for a few moments while the animation plays out. 3) Don't add a new skill and instead incorporate this effect into rapier's normal attack. Normal attacks with a rapier will have a chance, based on rapier mastery skill, to activate an enemy's counterattack without actually getting countered.

    4W1bRqq.png
    Trompement
    Used after a successful Feint. The enemy will be knocked down and stunned for a long period of time.
    I had to look up this term. "Trompement" seems like the technical term for any attack used after a feint. I like the skill thematically in the context of rapiers, but I think the actual gameplay effect could be improved.

    zHU1pOT.png
    Appel
    Stomp loudly to startle nearby enemies and disrupt their aggro.
    Sounds like the stomp skill if it had the taunt skill effect. Although, do you mean it will drop aggro or put aggro on the player?

    hFdJ4Fj.png
    Chivalrous Spirit
    While active, allows the player to teleport near an ally who's being attacked to aid them.
    Sounds neat. I'm guessing you meant teleport short distances and not across Erinn. Could also be implemented like charge where you run very quickly to a nearby ally. Or it could be a player-to-player divine link, where the chivalrous player takes all aggro and damage for the other player.

    xZfJsQF.png
    Stance Shift
    Switch between a Low Stance and a High Stance. When in the Low Stance, the player's strikes will be faster and more precise. When in the High Stance, the player's defensive and evasive abilities will be quicker and more effective.
    I'm about 1 hour into a google dive reading about fencing. Where does the time go... :) I couldn't find high stance and low stance in regards to fencing, but I did find offensive stance and defensive stance (or "wards" or "guards" as they call them). I can't quite picture what they look like, because the descriptions of the foot placements are all text and have fencing jargon mixed in. In mabi, might it be simpler to determine rapier fighting styles by what is worn in the off hand? Rapier and free hand, rapier and dagger, rapier and small shield, or rapier and medium shield (giant-only).
    Urufu
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    edited October 21, 2019
    25hfndf.png
    Parry
    Allows one to block a physical attack, putting the attacker into a vulnerable state for a few seconds.
    Could be integrated into defense. The description is already exactly what defense does. Maybe allow movement while defense is up while wielding a rapier, like shields do.

    Well, what I had in mind was that A.) parry would use a "window of opportunity" system similar to Lance Counter, and B.) parrying enemies would not only stun them, but also make them take more damage (ala Support Shot).
    21nnxom.png
    Trompement
    Used after a successful Feint. The enemy will be knocked down and stunned for a long period of time.
    I had to look up this term. "Trompement" seems like the technical term for any attack used after a feint. I like the skill thematically in the context of rapiers, but I think the actual gameplay effect could be improved.

    Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if that was the term I originally used (I made this on the old forum, but neglected to back it up when Nexon moved to this version), but I couldn't find any other term in that fit with...whatever I had in mind when I designed that icon.
    6dxyxx.png
    Appel
    Stomp loudly to startle nearby enemies and disrupt their aggro.
    Sounds like the stomp skill if it had the taunt skill effect. Although, do you mean it will drop aggro or put aggro on the player?

    Drop/reset aggro.
    2lmxyts.png
    Chivalrous Spirit
    While active, allows the player to teleport near an ally who's being attacked to aid them.
    Sounds neat. I'm guessing you meant teleport short distances and not across Erinn. Could also be implemented like charge where you run very quickly to a nearby ally. Or it could be a player-to-player divine link, where the chivalrous player takes all aggro and damage for the other player.

    Yeah, this one's inspired by the "Cover" ability from certain Final Fantasy job classes (like the Knight and Paladin).
    11vh7qe.png
    Stance Shift
    Switch between a Low Stance and a High Stance. When in the Low Stance, the player's strikes will be faster and more precise. When in the High Stance, the player's defensive and evasive abilities will be quicker and more effective.
    I'm about 1 hour into a google dive reading about fencing. Where does the time go... :) I couldn't find high stance and low stance in regards to fencing, but I did find offensive stance and defensive stance (or "wards" or "guards" as they call them). I can't quite picture what they look like, because the descriptions of the foot placements are all text and have fencing jargon mixed in. In mabi, might it be simpler to determine rapier fighting styles by what is worn in the off hand? Rapier and free hand, rapier and dagger, rapier and small shield, or rapier and medium shield (giant-only).

    Yeah, this one admittedly required a bit of artist license regarding proper fencing technique. Basically, the high stance would look kinda like a one-handed version of the German "Ochs" stance (and somewhat the Japanese "Ko Gasumi" stance). This pose, basically.

    EDIT: It turns out this might actually be a real thing called "high ward".

    TBH, some of my skill ideas might have been just filler/padding so that I'd have enough unique skills for my Talent concept to feel properly fleshed-out.
    Faybal
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    *Sees you put in effort, and even made icons*

    That's deserving of a like, if you ask me. :D
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    Thanks. Of course, I already had made most of them (the Stance Shift one being the only recently made one).
  • FaybalFaybal
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    Ooh! This seems interesting, I've always wanted to see rapiers reaping some benefits from the combat system.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    More info
    For the sport:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing

    The classical form of what became the sport:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_fencing

    Contains info of the historical combat form:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_European_martial_arts#Early_modern_period

    I would like to add on some info even though this suggestion was from last year. A lot of the skills would satisfy fencing, but pertain to more modern forms. Perhaps we can look into maybe one or 2 other uses for actual combat from back when it was used for combat. Hacking and slashing were still common forms of using weapons such as rapiers, not just for stabbing.
  • SherriSherri
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    Yes please!! We have the weapons so let us have the talent! D:
  • GFKGFK
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    This is easily the only talent suggestion that can actually work and sounds really enjoyable; like an elf lance brother + fighter talent. Hope this is taken more seriously by devs LOL
  • AlfaSusiAlfaSusi
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    I can say that I have some experience of many kind of fencing.
    This sounds nice. I really like idea of the feint.

    Feint
    Active skill with cooldown. When used, it simply removes the enemy's counterattack and stuns them.

    Stance Shift
    Your fencing styles don’t change when you change stance.

    SPOILER
    What I got in my mind when I think of aggressive high stance.

    Zwerchhau
    https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Hector_Mair
    https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Mair_longsword_003.jpg


    My HEMA teacher called that not Zwerchhau but helicopteer.
    And he said that swing your sword above your head and think that you are helicopter. LOL
    (I forgot the real name, Zwerchhau. Google don't know what is 'helicopter sword move'.
    Luckily I remember that it is German style fencing, found real name.)

    This kind of move does not work with rapiers

    Style Shift (to replace Stance Shift)
    Switch between how you attack. 'Straight line attack' boots your attack speed, but enemy has small chance to counter even without using skill.
    'Attack with opposition' lowers your attack speed but you may counterattack enemy even without using skill.

    Lunge
    If Lunge is like Charging Strike it's good, but enemy has small chance to counter even without using skill.

    Parry
    Parry does not work like that in real live. After parry there is no time to wait. Might be nice in game but not work in real live.

    Step back (to replace parry or extra)
    Step back and avoid enemy attack completely. For few seconds increased you have chance to do counter attack without skill.

    Riposte
    If there is no parry there can't be riposte.

    Pressing (to replace Riposte or extra)
    You are doing 3 attack combos. First two are fast with very little damage, but they make enemy to want jump back. If he don't jump back then the last hit will be critical.
    And if enemy jumps back he will be vulnerable state for a Lunge for a few seconds.
    (In PVP opponent will have the effect to jump back like monster would, but human opponent can use Step back skill also)

    Appel
    Game really needs more aggro control skills, but this does not fit very well in real fencing.

    Cloak attack (to replace Appel)
    Throw cloak over your enemy to blind him for short time. Lower aggro and is more vulnerable.


    Trompement
    Our fencing club uses only little amount of technical terms. We don't say trompement, we say just attack. I think trompement is too basic to need own term. And I think it does not with in game neither.

    My favourite rapier moves:
    (may not work in game)
    Scannatura


    scanso del pie dritto
    Darkpixie99
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited October 21, 2019
    Totally don't mean to necro, but didn't want a topic dupe.
    With the future Spirit Weapon update, it would be nice to see Rapiers get a Fencing Talent and the ability to be made into spirit weapons in the future.
    For now, I think we could use some fresh eyes on adding to this Talent Feedback.

    While the OP IMGs are broken, I'll see what I can add.
    If we were to take basic stances and add them in like the Fighter Skill tree, it should theoretically work.
    It appears that certain gloves may be a new requirement if we were to make Rapiers into a new Talent.

    Current Basic Sword Animations:
    440f9c7737367ca99f13900cfc0eb33d.jpeg

    Fencing Stances
    cd99bf6decd87a93f996c3ce8e3685ef.png

    An explanatory website.
    Sherri
  • HelsaHelsa
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    <prepares for the more pedantic among us to complain about necroing so then I can say what a stupid rule anti-necroing is in the first place>
    Darkpixie99
  • MiliardoMiliardo
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    edited October 22, 2019
    I got baited into thread derailment, sorry mods, please delete my posts.
  • SherriSherri
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    Miliardo wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    <i don't understand how forums work so I'm gonna complain and say everyone else is wrong because it's more convenient despite it being a global standard rule for a reason>
    I fixed your typo

    Uh.. no? It was either bring this thread back to life or make a new one with the same topic which would of very likely be merged with this old thread either way...
    Darkpixie99
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    Well, since someone went through the trouble of reviving this topic, I went ahead and fixed the images (had to get a new host because the old one went belly-up, apparently). I also tweaked Stance Shift a bit.
    Darkpixie99
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited October 22, 2019
    Miliardo wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    <i don't understand how forums work so I'm gonna complain and say everyone else is wrong because it's more convenient despite it being a global standard rule for a reason>
    I'm bored and feel like trolling.

    Oh, I understand how they work; I just think it's a stupid rule.