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Please let aim speed count toward magnum shot

ChoCho
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edited May 12, 2019 in Feedback and Suggestions
Giants are supposed to be weaker at ranged attacks but Throwing attack has a 4 second cooldown at r1 to hit 900% damage at 99%. Giants can do this at max range but it takes Magnum shot about 5 seconds to fully aim to 99% at max range, without Vision of Ladeca or Final Hit buffs, just to do less damage. If Throwing Attack's cooldown were it's aim time, it would aim faster than Magnum Shot.

Point blank, it takes Magnum Shot 2 seconds to aim to 99% without buffs. This is just a Smash that can miss and giants can do that better too. I feel that Magnum Shot should be at least better than Throwing Attack without needing Final Hit or Vision.

Comments

  • AmarazAmaraz
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    I think Magnum is strong enough as it is on elfs. Sure you have to rush lvl 100 to get vision, but that's really easy - Do Martial Arts once or twice depending on your exp buffs, then get into basic Nowhere to Run and you've achieved the ability to use vision within an hour. Giants needed some sort of range, and even though you're right in saying it's just as strong with no aim speed, the point is, Magnum does aim alot faster and has a chance to hit even at 0%. It just depends on if you want to play a riskier playstyle or not. If you like how giants do it, play a giant.
  • ChoCho
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    edited May 12, 2019
    Amaraz wrote: »
    I think Magnum is strong enough as it is on elfs. Sure you have to rush lvl 100 to get vision, but that's really easy - Do Martial Arts once or twice depending on your exp buffs, then get into basic Nowhere to Run and you've achieved the ability to use vision within an hour. Giants needed some sort of range, and even though you're right in saying it's just as strong with no aim speed, the point is, Magnum does aim alot faster and has a chance to hit even at 0%. It just depends on if you want to play a riskier playstyle or not. If you like how giants do it, play a giant.

    I disagree that giants need range I don't think their ranged needed to be that strong (600% on it's 3 STR/max damage scaling would have been fine), considering they get buffs in everything melee across the board, stats and percents-wise, but even then, they have Shurikens, Dual Guns, Puppetry (STR scaling), and Chainblade (Might of Ladeca buffed) . Magnum shot is really slow to aim and the buffs like Vision and Final Shot should be a bonus rather than a necessity to bring archery to a standard level. Getting in an enemy's face to point blank them for faster aim speed can be an option but even then, you might as well double-Bash or 2h Smash. Plus, the moment you shoot them, you knock them away and aiming takes longer again unless you take the time to re-position.

    Letting Elf Ranged aim speed count towards Magnum Shot should make it take about 3 seconds for Magnum Shot to aim to 99% from 2000 range and 1 second to aim from point blank. A bit faster for humans but they have a longer cooldown on Magnum so it balances out. This isn't game-breaking just quality of life.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    I don't know if the glitch still works, but when they ended the war Giants could get Magnum shot. I had Magnum shot for a while and Throwing Attack does hit harder. It was nice gong back and forth between the two; shooting while the other cooled down.
  • ChoCho
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    edited May 12, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    I don't know if the glitch still works, but when they ended the war Giants could get Magnum shot. I had Magnum shot for a while and Throwing Attack does hit harder. It was nice gong back and forth between the two; shooting while the other cooled down.

    Yeah I remember you mentioned this before. I had tried it too. It was through using keywords but it was patched out way back and the skill was removed from my giant.
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    TL;DR, AT THE TOP OF THE POST EDITION: Reduce or remove aim penalty from distance, fix latency skewing aim meter. Anything else makes already highest tier dps from mag break the game even further.

    FUD debunking, basic maths, and basic to intermediate game mechanics below this point. Turn away now all ye whom despise the English language's bloated words and huge Latin characters designed personally by Satan with the sole intent of making you want to gouge your eyes out the moment you see any human language written with them
    Cho wrote: »
    Point blank, it takes Magnum Shot 2 seconds to aim to 99% without buffs. This is just a Smash that can miss and giants can do that better too.
    Let's pretend that isn't reduced to 0.32 (Zero point Thirty Two) seconds after Vision, Final Shot, and an erg 50 bow; or even 1.6 seconds with just the erg 50 bow at all times.
    Let's pretend that Heavy Stander and Natural Shield are equal, and that despite both having a constant damage reduction effect Heavy Stander "doesn't" reduce your damage to 50% on every auto defense activation.
    Let's pretend that Elves can't use Solunas like every other race if they want big smashes, while simultaneously pretending that the extra 120% on smash's multiplier a Giant has over an elf with a 2 handed sword/axe/blunt (864% vs 744% skill multiplier), and also pretending that support shot; a skill which boosts the next melee hit by up to a massive 2.31x doesn't completely make up for the 120% lower skill multiplier and the 100 str (40 max) and 13 less combat mastery max deficit elves have simply doesn't exist.
    Let's pretend that Atlatls don't scale str/3 per max and Bows don't scale dex/2.5 per max, and simultaneously pretend that that Atlatls can get 6 piercing levels like the Divine Crossbow with it's exclusive Novel enchant, but while we do that let's pretend that Throwing Attack can be on a combo card like Magnum shot.

    Meanwhile back in reality, Magnum Shot is the highest single target dps in the game even if you stop to aim instead of turning on automatically use skill after targeting and mashing 8 Magnum Shot hotkeys with all of your non-thumb fingers.

    Lets look at an example comparison of Magnum Shot and Throwing Attack though since you claim Magnum shot is worse because it takes 2 seconds to aim to 99%, for simplicity we'll assume the elf has 1500 dex and the giant has 1500 str, fairly easily attainable goals with divine link and caters existing. Keeping in mind the first 10 of any stat applies no bonus to skills.
    #Elf's bow max from dex
    ; (1500-10)/2.5
    	596
    #Giant's Atlatl max from str
    ; (1500-10)/3
    	~496.66666666666666666667
    #Skill uses in the span of one minute of time
    #Magnum shot aiming for 2 seconds with Elves 0.5 second cooldown
    #Throwing Attack's 0 aim time and 4 second cooldown.
    ; 60/2.5
    	24
    ; 60/4
    	15
    #Skill's damage, 500% r1 Magnum vs 900% r1 Throwing Attack
    ; 596*5
    	2980
    ; 496.6*9
    	4469.4
    #Damage Per Minute of r1 Magnum vs r1 Throwing Attack purely from stats with no reforges.
    ; (596*5)*24
    	71520
    ; (496.6*9)*15
    	67041
    

    As you can clearly see Magnum Shot even without Dan 3, without reforges, without Vision Erg or Final Shot aim speed boosts, without combo card boosts, without the further gap in max damage from stat scaling going up to the 1800 caps from shine of eweca, and even without considering piercing and monster damage reduction, quite easily beats out Throwing Attack's damage per minute despite Throwing Attack not having to wait on aiming to have the same 99% hit chance.
    Cho wrote: »
    I disagree that giants need range considering they get buffs in everything melee across the board, stats and percents-wise
    You're effectively saying Giants should be locked out of soloing content with monsters immune to all but ranged damage type, the main reason they even have Throwing Attack, arbitrarily because "they have higher melee damage", which in it's self is a fallacy because effectively every small multiplier boost and extra pittance of max from combat mastery is completely nullified when you realize Elves and Humans both have the support shot skill. The only real Close Combat wins a Giant has over Elves and Humans is having a little more max than a Human for the same 310% dan 3 Windmill, and of course it being higher than Elves 230%; And Charge's splash damage impact being higher from the extra 132% on it's multiplier at dan 3, and debatable easier access to charge enhancement set effect if you pretend gachapon shield of avons don't exist on the market boosting that 1.1*.

    I'm not sure if you've looked around at other players or to be completely honest if you've ever even logged into the game with all the false information you post here, but Giants are the least played race, and it's not because they have "Overpowered melee" or because "Throwing Attack is better than Magnum Shot".
    Cho wrote: »
    but even then, they have Shurikens, Dual Guns, Puppetry (STR scaling), and Chainblade (Might of Ladeca buffed) [All increased in max damage from Combat Mastery].
    Puppetry has the same scaling for all races, Control bars scale ((str-10)/3.5)+((dex-10)/3.5). Elves endgame is 1700 str 1800 dex, Giants is reversed with 1800 str 1700 dex, and Human comes in between with 1750 of each.
    ; ((1700-10)/3.5)+((1800-10)/3.5)
    	~994.28571428571428571429
    ; ((1800-10)/3.5)+((1700-10)/3.5)
    	~994.28571428571428571429
    ; ((1750-10)/3.5)+((1750-10)/3.5)
    	~994.28571428571428571429
    
    Secondly, Combat Mastery only boosts the max damage of Control Bars, not Shurikens, Guns, or Chain Blades, whoever told you this is lying and it is easily debunked by using npc reforging tools on npc gloves until you roll Combat Mastery max damage 1 or higher and putting the gloves on while holding each weapon type and looking at the max damage on your character screen.
    Cho wrote: »
    Magnum shot is really slow to aim and the buffs like Vision and Final Shot should be a bonus rather than a necessity to bring archery to a standard level. Getting in an enemy's face to point blank them for faster aim speed can be an option but even then, you might as well double-Bash or 2h Smash.
    Bash and Smash will still do less dps than Magnum so it's actually not more effective to use them, especially since Bash can't be boosted by combo cards and doing a double Bash between Smashes means you're only getting boosts to Smash from a combo card every ~4 seconds, even then on an Elf or Human you would be doing more damage using Support Shot + Smash cycling instead of using Bash at all.
    Cho wrote: »
    Plus, the moment you shoot them, you knock them away and aiming takes longer again unless you take the time to re-position.

    Letting Elf Ranged aim speed count towards Magnum Shot should make it take about 3 seconds for Magnum Shot to aim to 99% from 2000 range and 1 second to aim from point blank. A bit faster for humans but they have a longer cooldown on Magnum so it balances out. This isn't game-breaking just quality of life.
    This is the only portion of your post that makes me believe you've actually used Magnum Shot, but the solution you've come to for fixing Magnum's ineffectiveness in long range use is to make it even more brokenly overpowered close quarters and boost the highest dps in the game even further, which is in fact game-breaking.

    In conclusion: As someone who spent about 7 years playing an elf, the real solution to the Archery skillset's problems is to remove or GREATLY reduce the penalty for aiming rate with distance and allow it to actually be a "long ranged" combat method, and to fix the aim desync between client and server with latency, which is specific to the NA server since the game as designed to be played in a region where 5ms of latency is "high" but the average NA player experiences anywhere from 40-180ms (And that's not even getting into Australian and Europeans 300+ms with no option for more localized servers) which skews the archery aim meter and makes you miss more than you should due to the game using an in order encrypted TCP stream for network communication.
    Hisahime
  • ChoCho
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    edited May 12, 2019
    Lutetium wrote: »
    Let's pretend that isn't reduced to 0.32 (Zero point Thirty Two) seconds after Vision, Final Shot, and an erg 50 bow; or even 1.6 seconds with just the erg 50 bow at all times.



    Cho wrote: »
    Magnum shot is really slow to aim and the buffs like Vision and Final Shot should be a bonus rather than a necessity to bring archery to a standard level.

    Edit: Oof I regret actually going back to skim through this
    Lutetium wrote: »

    Lets look at an example comparison of Magnum Shot and Throwing Attack though since you claim Magnum shot is worse because it takes 2 seconds to aim to 99%, for simplicity we'll assume the elf has 1500 dex and the giant has 1500 str, fairly easily attainable goals with divine link and caters existing. Keeping in mind the first 10 of any stat applies no bonus to skills.
    #Elf's bow max from dex
    ; (1500-10)/2.5
    	596
    #Giant's Atlatl max from str
    ; (1500-10)/3
    	~496.66666666666666666667
    #Skill uses in the span of one minute of time
    #Magnum shot aiming for 2 seconds with Elves 0.5 second cooldown
    #Throwing Attack's 0 aim time and 4 second cooldown.
    ; 60/2.5
    	24
    ; 60/4
    	15
    #Skill's damage, 500% r1 Magnum vs 900% r1 Throwing Attack
    ; 596*5
    	2980
    ; 496.6*9
    	4469.4
    #Damage Per Minute of r1 Magnum vs r1 Throwing Attack purely from stats with no reforges.
    ; (596*5)*24
    	71520
    ; (496.6*9)*15
    	67041
    

    This only works on paper and against things that stand completely still. The moment an enemy moves, accuracy drops. The moment it gets farther away, aiming time increases.
    In conclusion: As someone who spent about 7 years playing an elf,

    Imagine playing the game for 7 years and not understanding the knockback system.

    Magnum Shot could really use this. Even with r1 final shot, it's still easy to miss Magnum shots. This proposal is even less than that and 300% for Humans isn't bad considering they have no buffs to aim speed of outside of magic music scrolls.

    You were correct about the Combat Mastery not affecting those weapons I'll give you that. I had tested it before and I guess I was on a rank that gave STR and DEX so I've edited that one line out of the post. My point still stands that Giants have many archery alternatives which are in their favor despite Elves being the ranged race.
  • AmarazAmaraz
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    Cho wrote: »
    Amaraz wrote: »
    I think Magnum is strong enough as it is on elfs. Sure you have to rush lvl 100 to get vision, but that's really easy - Do Martial Arts once or twice depending on your exp buffs, then get into basic Nowhere to Run and you've achieved the ability to use vision within an hour. Giants needed some sort of range, and even though you're right in saying it's just as strong with no aim speed, the point is, Magnum does aim alot faster and has a chance to hit even at 0%. It just depends on if you want to play a riskier playstyle or not. If you like how giants do it, play a giant.

    I disagree that giants need range I don't think their ranged needed to be that strong (600% on it's 3 STR/max damage scaling would have been fine), considering they get buffs in everything melee across the board, stats and percents-wise, but even then, they have Shurikens, Dual Guns, Puppetry (STR scaling), and Chainblade (Might of Ladeca buffed) . Magnum shot is really slow to aim and the buffs like Vision and Final Shot should be a bonus rather than a necessity to bring archery to a standard level. Getting in an enemy's face to point blank them for faster aim speed can be an option but even then, you might as well double-Bash or 2h Smash. Plus, the moment you shoot them, you knock them away and aiming takes longer again unless you take the time to re-position.

    Letting Elf Ranged aim speed count towards Magnum Shot should make it take about 3 seconds for Magnum Shot to aim to 99% from 2000 range and 1 second to aim from point blank. A bit faster for humans but they have a longer cooldown on Magnum so it balances out. This isn't game-breaking just quality of life.

    I think your thoughts are leaning towards the general idea that archery has a very bad system, and that's honestly what we all think lol. It's too RNG, and everyone would probably agree with that.
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Cho wrote: »
    Imagine playing the game for 7 years and not understanding the knockback system.
    Imagine playing the game for 12 minutes and not understanding anything where a skill's damage per minute matters has advanced heavy stander and can't be knocked back, and that anything that can be knocked back short of old adv hm dungeon bosses is 1~3 shot by AOEs anyway and using single target mag on a room full of 30 spawns isn't the ideal way to deal with them. But I understand you're just trying to be edgy and contrarian by pretending you've never left Tir and not knowing mag will do more than 8 damage to the field boss "Red Spider" someday.

    And really the old hm dungeon bosses, and anything else you'd use mag on and not 1 shot passed the tutorial stage of the game is in a small room where you can just chase it to the wall before it has a chance to hit you anyway. Knockback isn't the massive deal you believe it is, unless you've deranked every skill that gives dex, are wearing a max damage reduction set, and for some reason are using mag in shadow cast city elite but just cant figure out standing on the side of the mob that would knock it into a building and slowly take every spawn across Tara with 1 damage mags. I'm sure that's how everyone plays the game though, and hey you do you sometimes applying artificial limitations make the game """more fun""" like beating super mario brothers without jumping or moving right :)

    3fb52eacd4.gif
  • ChoCho
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    Amaraz wrote: »
    I think your thoughts are leaning towards the general idea that archery has a very bad system, and that's honestly what we all think lol. It's too RNG, and everyone would probably agree with that.

    I like the uniqueness in the idea that archery can miss and taking the time to aim, but for a weakness like that, it needs some kind of push to make it feel worth it. I personally don't think it needs a full revamp or needs to never miss like magic but maybe to take aim time more into consideration. Like 30 seconds of Final Shot is just so little for what it does. With the time it takes to aim and teleport yourself back in range, after about 8 magnum shots it's already gone for another 4 minutes.

    Hopefully when they do decide to touch up on Archery they'll work on some smaller things too like allowing arrow bundle crafting or letting Vivace raise aim speed or any sort of small tweaks to make Archery more interesting because having wound rate and being ranged isn't really unique enough in modern mabi.
    Amaraz
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    How about we limit miss shots to be only luck based. So change the entire range system so that "missed" shots only count for half of the damage they were suppose to do if they were a "successful" one. So a base level Magnum shot does 250% instead of 500% if the shot was a "miss" on the old system. Ranged shots can still miss a target entirely, but will be like shuriken and dual gun misses in that only luck will make them unaffect the target. I mean its kinda stupid that I missed a shot on a dragon that's literally filling up my entire field of view...
    ChoSphyra21
  • justshowingjustshowing
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    magnum shot for elves is scalable...

    final shot and vision of ladeca.

    for humans... mehhh you'll be okay just final hit :D
  • NinzerkerNinzerker
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    Lutetium wrote: »
    #Damage Per Minute of r1 Magnum vs r1 Throwing Attack purely from stats with no reforges.
    ; (596*5)*24
    	71520
    ; (496.6*9)*15
    	67041
    

    Aren't these numbers assuming perfect execution as well as no unlucky misses and latency spikes?
    In theory it may read like that, but in practice I have a 25ms ping (which is better than the average you listed), and it sometimes take a skill long enough to load that urgent shot oftentimes times out, thats a 3 second load time on an instantaneous skill.
    However the above listed factors will limit the consistency of elf ranging. Did the enemy move outside the two second strike zone? Did lag make you hit 99% about .6 seconds ago and you haven't caught up yet? Did you just roll badly and miss despite the 99%? Lots of possible factors for DPS falloff
    Giants still have to deal with the skill load and execution times, yes, but can simply mash the hotkey to eliminate the RNG or user sides timing fluctuations

    But yes, if you were running a wired connection directly into the server, and you were using a bot to time everything precisely on a higher than average rig. I think those above numbers may be a fairly accurate approximations, but for the average user they will see much lower efficacy rates
    Sphyra21
  • HisahimeHisahime
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    From the sound of it, archery itself needs a bit of a rework to begin with, kinda like lances.
  • Donk3yDonk3y
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    Lutetium wrote: »
    TL;DR, AT THE TOP OF THE POST EDITION: Reduce or remove aim penalty from distance, fix latency skewing aim meter. Anything else makes already highest tier dps from mag break the game even further...........

    On thing here, probably offtopic:
    Let's pretend that isn't reduced to 0.32 (Zero point Thirty Two) seconds after Vision, Final Shot, and an erg 50 bow; or even 1.6 seconds with just the erg 50 bow at all times.

    Balancing doesn't happen at endgame content (or rather, it shouldn't), general balancing should happen for the majority of the content.
    50 erg weapons are considered endgame, how many people have them? I can guarantee you that less than 0.1% of the active population has them.

    You do not consider "balanced" something that's really good at endgame, but complete trash early-mid-near_endgame. As a general rule of thumb when it comes to balancing, you do not cater to the overwhelmingly small minority.

    Of course, this only applies to general content, because sure, there is endgame content that is balanced for endgame gear/skills/stats.