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Regarding Disclaimers

HelsaHelsa
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edited May 25, 2019 in General Chat
/************************************************************\
*·DISCLAIMER: since the following post is not made by an employee of··*
*·Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners, what is contained therein is······*
*·ultimately speculation. Until Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners·····*
*·has spoken definitively on the matters to be discussed, do not take them···*
*·as granted, even if the language used happens to make it seem so.··········*
\************************************************************/



Site staff has announced that disclaimers will not be recognized as offering any kind of relief to readers or any sort of protection to the poster. These disclaimers have come as a result of site staff deleting posts calling for Alexina to be included in the server merge, and regarding speculation regarding the future of the game.

Regarding the first issue: it is abundantly obvious that the citizens of Alexina were justifiably upset about not being included and need to express that dissatisfaction. This has been met with effort after effort to stifle this; this latest effort being not merely confusing but alarming.

Regarding the second issue: speculation about the future of this game is one of the main reasons people bother with these forums. If the site staff are concerned about FUD, a disclaimer does make it clear to the reader that it is just speculation. To unilaterally declare that disclaimers are somehow not valid, is not only questionable, but raises concerns about whether site staff is more concerned about the community or its self. If people cannot speculate about the game, then the only things to do here are to make posts such as "What's your favorite anime character" or "I'm looking for a friend". If that's what these forums devolve into then the only interesting thing here will be whatever garbage posters named after crockery have to say.
GretaWolfsingerPan

Comments

  • GretaGreta
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    edited May 25, 2019
    I really don't like the fact that so far ~3 threads got removed/locked for asking Alexina to be included in Server Merge. The whole explanation i got that it was against CoC SOMEHOW and petitions are not allowed. Like... I did not see any petitions anywhere, all i saw that all these threads had these innocent polls saying stuff like: "Include Alexina in Server Merge?" with choices like "Yes", "No", etc. How is this a petition? This is literally a poll system that you kept it in these forums... The thread weren't spreading FUD either...
  • JJJJ
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    edited May 25, 2019
    I think I know how this whole ordeal will end. But I can't say.
  • GretaGreta
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    jjeremy wrote: »
    I think I know how this whole ordeal will end. But I can't say.

    I was pretty sure the moment they started to do this.
  • GypsySpiritGypsySpirit
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    edited May 25, 2019
    I’m glad they put that notice, it was getting annoying seeing people who read rules and twist it thinking they’re in the right. It’s been announced to take screenshots of what you own in the game and anything else that goes wrong will be handled by actual employees that can solve it, people on forums that can only type and add advice unfortunately can’t so they shouldn’t be getting so heat up about it.
  • LadameLadame
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    Yeah, I saw a couple threads get locked and responded to by moderators in such a harsh way like... I read the OP and none of it seems bad usually? Just innocent questions like wondering how things will work, or if some stuff will be safe or not and such.

    Guess innocent questions are just too much now? ;w;
    YoridenTHICCthighssavelivesPan
  • DraechDraech
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    edited May 25, 2019
    Adding a disclaimer does not exempt forum users from the Code of Conduct. I'm not saying "You guys deserve to be punished," because I can understand your situation. However, disclaimers change nothing, as there is already an implicit one by the presence of those coloured boxes around some users' comments (Yellow for Nexon, Purple for VFM). With all due respect, everyone else is a nobody.

    The issue VFMs/Nexon have with posts that are "FUD" (that cause fear, uncertainty and doubt) and "Petitions" is about the wording. As The Gazette points out with their slogan: Words Matter. There's a huge difference between "EVERYONE WHO'S MARRIED, GET DIVORCED RIGHT NOW!!! IT BORKED IN THE PAST!!!" and "I suggest you get divorced to avoid past issues, unless the staff says they solved it: [LINK TO THREAD]. @Nexon Can we get confirmation on this?" One incites fear, the other encourages safety.

    As for Petitions, though I know the "Should we include Alexina" threads don't feel like one, they work the same way: gather as many "Yes" votes as possible "to show Nexon that Alexina wants to be included." Nexon is aware of much of the community's desire to see Alexina included, and these threads do not bring anything more to the table. At least Server Merge threads used to bring up discussions about multiple issues that could be encountered, but Merge Alexina threads aren't really a discussion.

    Now, I'm not saying moderators are perfect. At the least, they could explain this to the people whose threads get locked for these reasons. But I think they're right in doing what they do, especially with a certain user who keeps saying "You're gonna lose everything anyway when the game shuts down."
    GypsySpiritNegumikoDarkpixie99starkiller1286Avan
  • LadameLadame
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    That is the thing that's most nuts to me, there are people whose post do deserve deleted maybe, since they are actually spreading FUD. Meanwhile posts that at worst, should maybe be merged into one Alexina Server Merge thread are being locked or removed.
  • GretaGreta
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    edited May 25, 2019
    Ladame wrote: »
    That is the thing that's most nuts to me, there are people whose post do deserve deleted maybe, since they are actually spreading FUD. Meanwhile posts that at worst, should maybe be merged into one Alexina Server Merge thread are being locked or removed.

    I like how they remove harmless questions/suggestions from anyone, but meanwhile they leave out all these FUD/inappropriate posts and comments of certain individual.
    DiiLadameWolfsinger
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,410
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    /************************************************************\
    *·DISCLAIMER: since the following post is not made by an employee of··*
    *·Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners, what is contained therein is······*
    *·ultimately speculation. Until Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners·····*
    *·has spoken definitively on the matters to be discussed, do not take them···*
    *·as granted, even if the language used happens to make it seem so.··········*
    \************************************************************/


    Draech wrote: »
    Adding a disclaimer does not exempt forum users from the Code of Conduct. I'm not saying "You guys deserve to be punished," because I can understand your situation. However, disclaimers change nothing, as there is already an implicit one by the presence of those coloured boxes around some users' comments (Yellow for Nexon, Purple for VFM). With all due respect, everyone else is a nobody.

    Disclaimers DO make a difference, CoC notwithstanding. Concerns about FUD are made out of concern for those readers whom may not be able to judge the difference between whether a statement is speculation or not. Their need to be mollycoddled notwithstanding, the disclaimer, whether it calls into question the site staff behaving in a ham-fisted manner or not, makes this clear. It has a purpose, it is useful, and it works.
    Draech wrote: »
    The issue VFMs/Nexon have with posts that are "FUD" (that cause fear, uncertainty and doubt) and "Petitions" is about the wording. As The Gazette points out with their slogan: Words Matter. There's a huge difference between "EVERYONE WHO'S MARRIED, GET DIVORCED RIGHT NOW!!! IT BORKED IN THE PAST!!!" and "I suggest you get divorced to avoid past issues, unless the staff says they solved it: [LINK TO THREAD]. @Nexon Can we get confirmation on this?" One incites fear, the other encourages safety.

    This manner of making statements palatable is tantamount to distributing the disclaimer throughout the text it self. Site staff has declared disclaimers invalid, therefore no statement can be made of a speculative nature without one taking undo risk, of the statement being censored or deleted, and of their ability to access these forums in the future. The staff have deleted posts that cannot have such claims of impropriety justifiably be made about them and so raise concerns that it is the subject being stifled not its content.
    Draech wrote: »
    As for Petitions, though I know the "Should we include Alexina" threads don't feel like one, they work the same way: gather as many "Yes" votes as possible "to show Nexon that Alexina wants to be included." Nexon is aware of much of the community's desire to see Alexina included, and these threads do not bring anything more to the table. At least Server Merge threads used to bring up discussions about multiple issues that could be encountered, but Merge Alexina threads aren't really a discussion.

    A poll about whether Alexina should be included or not, whether it be a petition or not, whether it is useful or not is irrelevant. It harms no one, and the community wants to know and to talk about it. Alexina will be the last "original" server standing, therefore talks about merging Alexina is the same as talks about a full server merge. A full server merge is a different animal than a partial merge. So, stifling discussion of a merge of Alexina is stifling the subject of a full server merge.
    Draech wrote: »
    Now, I'm not saying moderators are perfect. At the least, they could explain this to the people whose threads get locked for these reasons. But I think they're right in doing what they do, especially with a certain user who keeps saying "You're gonna lose everything anyway when the game shuts down."

    As proof of the fallibility of the moderators, the folks making the now deleted discussion, whom did so in good faith are censured, while the one that says, "You're gonna lose everything anyway when the game shuts down." is recognized as a troll who is stirring up trouble for fun and is allowed to continue to do so.
    LadameGretaWolfsinger
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    I just want to say that the reason why we used them was not to undermine or "exempt" us from the CoC. It was to help them understand our concerns without outright silencing us. I think Katherz understands that.
    WolfsingerGretaDarkpixie99
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited May 25, 2019
    Gaea wrote: »
    I just want to say that the reason why we used them was not to undermine or "exempt" us from the CoC. It was to help them understand our concerns without outright silencing us. I think Katherz understands that.
    Ladame wrote: »
    That is the thing that's most nuts to me, there are people whose post do deserve deleted maybe, since they are actually spreading FUD. Meanwhile posts that at worst, should maybe be merged into one Alexina Server Merge thread are being locked or removed.

    I think the main concern with the FUD and misinformation inside disclaimers all stemmed from the resulting meme reaction to and of one user.
    (Those involved know who they are.)
    What the admins need right now isn't negativity, they need people to understand that regardless of the past, Nexon is trying to be and do better.
    The company might be up for auction, but they sincerely want us to know that they're trying their best with the feedback we have already provided them. Nothing was ever going to stop the merge, as it's been something requested for at least half a decade by now.
    Most, if not some people are spreading fear about Alexina and Mabinogi's future, when it quite frankly isn't needed at the moment.
    DraechWolfsinger
  • JJJJ
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    It's ironic how these FUD rules are causing more FUD than anything else.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited May 25, 2019
    jjeremy wrote: »
    It's ironic how these FUD rules are causing more FUD than anything else.

    To be quite frank, if you considered all the circumstances surrounding Nexon, now is not a good time for the community to be worried or doubtful.
    It's only natural that they'd ramp up the moderation in order to maintain a positive outlook on the server merge.
    Yes things will change, but everyone has been treating it as either an omen or something to be offended about.
    (Despite having done so in the past.)
    Change is what we asked for, yet we and Nexon haven't been able to make anything of it quite yet.
    Give the server merge a chance, and let the proper testing occur.
    If in another two or five years Alexina's population somehow isn't equivalent to Nao, then perhaps Nexon would already have been aware and considering the full merge, and will end up doing it anyways.
    If Alexina's main concern was the bots, then the next step would be to make a feedback thread on it.
    As Nexon has said many times over, the ban hammer is currently the only solution for handling unwanted bots.
    (They need new tech/untangle spaghetti code)
    Warnings won't make them go away, which is why we were all given a "report" or "block" button.
    (And also the well known gank of Enthralling Performance+bear+hide.)
    The next step would've been to IP ban China in it's entirety, which is always an unfair aspect that developers never want to deploy.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,410
    Posts: 5,785
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    edited May 25, 2019
    /************************************************************\
    *·DISCLAIMER: since the following post is not made by an employee of··*
    *·Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners, what is contained therein is······*
    *·ultimately speculation. Until Nexon or any of its affiliates or partners·····*
    *·has spoken definitively on the matters to be discussed, do not take them···*
    *·as granted, even if the language used happens to make it seem so.··········*
    \************************************************************/


    Gaea wrote: »
    I just want to say that the reason why we used them was not to undermine or "exempt" us from the CoC. It was to help them understand our concerns without outright silencing us. I think Katherz understands that.

    I will add, that this was never some kind of trick in order to get away with bad behavior or some such thing. The staff raised concerns that some things said were possibly causing alarm in the community, because those people concerned, could not tell if what was being said was a given or speculation. The purpose of the disclaimer was to make clear, to those concerned members of the community, that what anyone else in the community can say about things, from the outside, can only be taken as speculation. Some have rebutted this to say that it is clear, by not being on the inside, that such statements are speculation and that the disclaimers are redundant. The wholesale deletion of posts, engaged in speculation, by the staff, indicates that the staff thinks likewise. That disclaimers will be seen as not providing relief to the readers sends the message: "speculate at your own risk". Yet, it is necessary, for example the way that duplicate names will be handled does open up the possibility of name theft. The possibility of this is concerning to folks and understandably so, but would they really want to have their head in the sand over this? Or what about the idea of including Alexina? Exactly why is that taboo? The answer so far has been: "it just is now shut up".
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    Helsa wrote: »
    The possibility of name theft is concerning to folks and understandably so, but would they really want to have their head in the sand over this? Or what about the idea of including Alexina? Exactly why is that taboo? The answer so far has been: "it just is now shut up".

    The problem with bringing up the name sniping is that you're not completely entitled to your character name.
    If someone else makes or claims that name, well then that's just how life goes.
    The problem with bringing up Alexina is as I keep saying, the negativity is simply not appreciated by the mods right now.
    If problems do come up, or the populations aren't the same after a few years, then they'll fix it... simple as that.


    I'll say the same thing I said in the official server merge thread:
    The entire thing is a bad idea. The only "change" that comes after a server merge is-
    Greta wrote: »
    Agreed. I always saw people suggesting all server merge. I don't understand how they came with this idea.
    It's just gonna make things go back to square one because-

    Saying that you believe that the merge is a bad idea is one thing, but going and saying that things will go badly is not what the admins would like to see.
    Please go read this official post once more.
    The disclaimers inside of comments were started as more of a community meme in response to another user who was intentionally spreading FUD, but some responding comments still contained FUD.
    As the admins have already stated, they are testing the merge in order to assure everything goes correctly.
    "regardless of what has happened in the past"
    No one can predict the population progression of servers, even after a lengthy and careful merge.
    Nexon KR has already prepared a bunch of new content which players have been asking for, and it will be sure to draw in a crowd.
    All we have to do is wait for Nexon NA to announce it sometime after the merge.



  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    Don't tell people "thems the breaks" if they have been playing for 11 years. :|
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited May 25, 2019
    Gaea wrote: »
    Don't tell people "thems the breaks" if they have been playing for 11 years. :|

    Well what were they expecting, a name reservation period for $100?
    That's not how a server merge works, and it's been discussed on the forums before.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    Gaea wrote: »
    Don't tell people "thems the breaks" if they have been playing for 11 years. :|

    Well what were they expecting, a name reservation period for $100?
    That's not how a server merge works, and it's been discussed on the forums before.

    Actually that's not a bad idea. But not for a $100.
    Darkpixie99
  • iKasumiiKasumi
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    Gaea wrote: »
    Actually that's not a bad idea. But not for a $100.

    Maybe so, but it'd bring up another set of issues. Like the inevitability of two people wanting the same name. Does the person who bought it first get the name first? What if said first person is someone who hasn't played in years, and the second person is someone who's an active player? Granted, the majority wouldn't have to worry, but it's something that since that is a possibility, the team would have to. Personally, the bit of money that would come in (while players would rally in on me for greed) wouldn't be worth the drama it would stir up. And frankly, this issue doesn't need more help with that.
    Darkpixie99
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    iKasumi wrote: »
    Gaea wrote: »
    Actually that's not a bad idea. But not for a $100.

    Maybe so, but it'd bring up another set of issues. Like the inevitability of two people wanting the same name. Does the person who bought it first get the name first? What if said first person is someone who hasn't played in years, and the second person is someone who's an active player? Granted, the majority wouldn't have to worry, but it's something that since that is a possibility, the team would have to. Personally, the bit of money that would come in (while players would rally in on me for greed) wouldn't be worth the drama it would stir up. And frankly, this issue doesn't need more help with that.

    Same old argument we've had for years about user names. Anyway, fine do it for free Mabinogi Team, help established players reserve their names they have used for years. That's a solution right? Will they do it?

    Well I could blatantly say no and insert a disclaimer. :|
    Darkpixie99