Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the Renovation Season 3 Update! https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/74541/renovation-season-3-patch-notes-may-26th-2022
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Bring Back The Gypsy Talent Title

Comments

  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?
    Darkpixie99
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 28, 2019
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?

    The irony.
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,360
    Posts: 2,746
    Member
    edited August 28, 2019
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?

    The irony.

    Huh.. maybe they should just rename the Gypsy talent to the Siren talent then lol

    Also, last post I made made an oopsie.

    **EXPUNGED** is actually Austrian. o 3 o
  • VeylaineVeylaine
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,050
    Posts: 348
    Member
    edited August 28, 2019
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?

    it did but if you remember watching the movie the character that used it the most was frollo and he didn't exactly say it just as an identifier but also with much malice.

    even in his song he equated gypsy to an evil witch.

    but back on topic I think I agree with helsa this probably won't be changing back anytime soon.

    even the pope went on to acknowledge the prejudice against them.
    https://cruxnow.com/pope-in-romania/2019/06/02/pope-apologizes-to-gypsies-for-discrimination-and-segregation/

    EDIT: I don't agree or disagree with this move, but just stating since a good chunk of mabi NA players are EU with some being in countries like Lithuania, Romania,Hungary. etc. where these groups are high in numbers even if a good chunk don't play I'm sure residents there are aware of them and probably play too.

    with other stuff happening im sure this will one of the last complaints they'd want to deal with right now. ( still wonder why change it in the first place, maybe they foresaw something or just knew and wanted to change it and bury it, because much like the internet news cycle this will fade and most people will forget about this dilemma)
    Darkpixie99Sherri
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 28, 2019
    Veylaine wrote: »
    I don't agree or disagree with this move, but just stating since a good chunk of mabi NA players are EU with some being in countries like Lithuania, Romania,Hungary. etc. where these groups are high in numbers even if a good chunk don't play I'm sure residents there are aware of them and probably play too.

    with other stuff happening im sure this will one of the last complaints they'd want to deal with right now. ( still wonder why change it in the first place, maybe they foresaw something or just knew and wanted to change it and bury it, because much like the internet news cycle this will fade and most people will forget about this dilemma)

    Who really knows?
    Maybe in a few more years, gypsy won't be such a "problematic" name for Nexon to worry about, and they could bring the title back.
  • DragoolfireDragoolfire
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,490
    Posts: 484
    Member
    With older Disney movies, there wasn't as much care about being offensive. Sorry for going off topic. But say you watch Fantasia (1940 film), if you notice the female Centaurs, enough said. I miss the old days were you could actually say what ever you want to.
    KensamaofmariDarkpixie99
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    edited August 29, 2019
    With older Disney movies, there wasn't as much care about being offensive. Sorry for going off topic. But say you watch Fantasia (1940 film), if you notice the female Centaurs, enough said. I miss the old days were you could actually say what ever you want to.

    I, too, miss the old days when people died of polio.

    On topic, if they changed the title because they felt it was distasteful, I wouldn't count on them going back on that decision. On the old forums, I could recall people taking issue with the title. I'm fine with the change.
    KensamaofmariDarkpixie99Ion
  • lostheavenlostheaven
    Mabinogi Rep: 790
    Posts: 29
    Member
    I was so mad when they changed the title. It was my favorite talent title & I worked very hard to earn it. "Wandering Bard" sucks.

    While I get why they changed it, it's sad that we can't even play a game anymore without getting political or worrying about who's going to be offended.
    Darkpixie99
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    Sherri wrote: »
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?

    The irony.

    Huh.. maybe they should just rename the Gypsy talent to the Siren talent then lol

    Also, last post I made made an oopsie.

    **EXPUNGED** is actually Austrian. o 3 o

    But Austria also speaks Deutsch.
  • DragoolfireDragoolfire
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,490
    Posts: 484
    Member
    Raishii wrote: »
    With older Disney movies, there wasn't as much care about being offensive. Sorry for going off topic. But say you watch Fantasia (1940 film), if you notice the female Centaurs, enough said. I miss the old days were you could actually say what ever you want to.

    I, too, miss the old days when people died of polio.

    On topic, if they changed the title because they felt it was distasteful, I wouldn't count on them going back on that decision. On the old forums, I could recall people taking issue with the title. I'm fine with the change.

    Dude, that's dark. Why do that?
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,765
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    WTH. That escalated quickly.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited August 29, 2019
    Raishii wrote: »
    If they changed the title because they felt it was distasteful, I wouldn't count on them going back on that decision. On the old forums, I could recall people taking issue with the title. I'm fine with the change.

    The keyword here is "the old forums."
    If there were no new threads created, then unlike the server merge, the complaints must've died off along with the decline in population.
    Seems rather counter intuitive to change something in order to try and bring a small population back who already hates you, and is likely never going to be happy.

    With older Disney movies, there wasn't as much care about being offensive. Sorry for going off topic. But say you watch Fantasia (1940 film), if you notice the female Centaurs, enough said. I miss the old days were you could actually say what ever you want to.

    I feel old just listening to the president try and tell a speech which he's clearly ad-libing. (Poorly, I might add.)
    Man, I loved Fantasia as a kid. Honestly can't remember how many Disney movies I watched, or how much I cared about meaning behind stuff.
    I was honestly glued to the TV screen anticipating that something new and different or even my favorite thing might happen again.
    (Because magic was totally real.) A pity the VCR is obsolete, cause even our DVDs get exchanged at a bookstore.
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    Raishii wrote: »
    If they changed the title because they felt it was distasteful, I wouldn't count on them going back on that decision. On the old forums, I could recall people taking issue with the title. I'm fine with the change.

    The keyword here is "the old forums."
    If there were no new threads created, then unlike the server merge, the complaints must've died off along with the decline in population.
    Seems rather counter intuitive to change something in order to try and bring a small population back who already hates you, and is likely never going to be happy.

    To kinda play devil's advocate, the NA team has never been quick to address many text-related issues that aren't related to on-going events. Ones like "Emain Macha is now in progress" have been present for how many years, now? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it was probably in their backlog, and they're just now getting to it.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    Raishii wrote: »
    To kinda play devil's advocate, the NA team has never been quick to address many text-related issues that aren't related to on-going events. Ones like "Emain Macha is now in progress" have been present for how many years, now? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it was probably in their backlog, and they're just now getting to it.

    The NA team quite literally can't code anything that KR hasn't sent them.
    So there's going to be a backlog of old or even outdated and no longer relevant requests.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    edited August 30, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    In this day and age, you literally can not do anything without offending anyone. So you might as well offend everyone equally.

    ... and this is why Nexon isn't ever going to touch this no matter how long a pole you give them.

    Let's get real though.
    Most people who get riled up about racism in things (that don't intend it to be read or seen as such) usually aren't of said race or occupation.

    Do you mean the folks calling for the return of the use of the term Gypsy are not them selves Roma people and place their wants for "atmosphere" above the feelings of the Roma people offended by the term, and are getting upset because offended people's "feelings" are getting in the way of the insensitive peoples fun?
    I remember Shylock being a name that was censored, only to be uncensored when it proved dumb to censor the name of a storyline character.

    I believe that mistake was due to an overseas slur issue with the definition, one similar to the "gypsy" situation.

    Shylock is the name of the character from the Shakespeare play. Shylock was a money lender, and the term is now used to mean a loan shark. The character Shylock is Jewish. Before the Commercial Revolution, Christians were not allowed to charge interest, like Muslims are not today. The Jewish people never placed this limitation on themselves so, at this time, they were the money lenders in Europe. Since no one likes bankers, this along with the choosing Barrabas over Iesvs, is where anti-Semitism in Europe began. Once the Pope lifted that restriction, other folks (especially the Italians) entered the commercial industry. If one were to use the term Shylock for any Jewish person then that would be offensive. Here, it is for the actual name of the character. If you know a Jewish person named, say, Khaim, it would not be offensive to call them that, but if you call every Jewish person Khaim, or use Khaims in place of Jews then that is offensive. This is the case for Shylock and why it returned.

    The term Gypsy is a corruption of "Egyptian", as Europeans had thought that this was where the Roma initially came from. So, it came about from ignorance and it's continued use is a testament to insensitivity. It's like calling south Asian people black. The first time is a simple mistake, continuing to do so is rude.
    Ruinitive wrote: »
    It should come back, it's stupid that it was removed. People are way too sensitive now days it's awful.

    ... and this is why Nexon isn't ever going to touch this no matter how long a pole you give them.
    Speaking of gypsy, isn't it used in Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame constantly?

    They did along with the leader of the crows in Dumbo being named Jim Crow; Disney has a lot to account for.

    - - - - -

    The longer this thread gets the less and less likely that the term will return, regardless of whether the OP gets the last word or not. Corporations are inherently cautious in their decision making and Nexon has nothing to gain by bringing it back and plenty to lose.

    EDIT: fixed typos
    DraechVeylaineSherriDarkpixie99Ion
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,685
    Posts: 7,898
    Member
    Publicly traded companies are especially cautious.
    Darkpixie99
  • AbsintheAbsinthe
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,005
    Posts: 24
    Member
    edited September 1, 2019
    My character is just a tribal princess. Her people spent their days hunting and riding and their nights singing and dancing. So gypsy + hunter/ranger captured it well. Wandering bard does not. In fact, she would find it offensive. Praise-blame poetry was vulgar and bards debased themselves by doing it for unworthy motives. It is wrong for her to call herself a gypsy but it is OK for Nexon to call her a whor* ?

    I think Nexon completely fails to grasp why the right of self-designation is important in a pluralist society.



    Unlike “gypsy”, “bard” was actually a derogatory term. Bards were seen as itinerant trouble makers. And “wandering bard” reinforces the negative stereotype of bards as vagrants, vagabonds, rogues, tramps, drifters. Itinerant communities are constantly having to battle this tendency of settled communities to lump them in with derelicts.

    Of course language is constantly evolving. Sir Walter Scott gave us this romanticized bard as like the lyric poets of Ancient Greece. And “wandering bard” in this romanticized sense can be seen as idyllic (the lyric poet wandering the hills, seeking inspiration).

    Bard in each of these cases has the same referent. They are just different senses of the same word. Gypsy and gypsy on the other hand are capitonyms. The meaning of the word changes based on whether or not it is capitalized. Examples: Turkey (the country)/turkey (the bird), China (the country)/china (porcelain), March (month)/march (walk) or march (frontier). Sometimes these words evolve independently (March/march) and sometimes not (Turkey/turkey; China/china). Nevertheless, most rational people don’t run around claiming turkey is a pejorative for Turks, or that Turkey is a pejorative given by people who see Turks as like turkeys, or that turkey’s “appropriated” their name from the Turks. And most sane people don’t run around calling for bans on Thanksgiving claiming it as a national holiday celebrating anti-Turkish sentiments.


    Gypsy (proper noun)

    In American English, the proper noun “Gypsy” is commonly used in reference to Romani ethnicity. There is no historical evidence of the term ever being offensive or contemptuous. And prior to the 1980s every Romani-American sub-culture translated its self-designation to English as Gypsy. But some newer immigrants like the Sinti and Roma have never called themselves Gypsy. To call them Gypsy is to deny them the right of self-designation. Some might take offense. So it is generally recommended to use the term cautiously if at all.

    Where I live Romani-Americans traditionally designate themselves as either Rom or Gypsy. Rom expresses belonging to a Gypsy community. Gypsy expresses belonging to the Gypsy ethnic group. One can be Rom and not be Gypsy. One can be Gypsy and not be Rom. So the terms are not synonyms despite efforts by some to treat them as such. And they don’t typically get offended if people don’t know the difference.


    Gypsy (common noun)

    In American English, the common noun “gypsy” is just a generic term that refers to any itinerant person. When it was coined it was obviously in the sense of “like a Gypsy”, who were at the time itinerant people. But the term hasn’t been connected to any racial or ethnic group for well over 500 years. And there is no reliable source that even urges caution when using this term, much less urging us not to use it.

    In 2018, a woman in Portland, Oregon claimed that it should be taken as offensive. And naturally every wannabe social justice warrior had to jump on the bandwagon.
    It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.

    The Gypsy Robe incident is a perfect example. One of the claims surrounding the Gypsy Robe tradition was that it “appropriated” the name of an ethnic group. This was blatantly false. The name actually derived from the fact that the robe passed from one show to another. The other claim, that Gypsy is a pejorative, was also blatantly false. In the end they gave into fear that the issue would divide the community and changed the name. But even they didn’t go so far as to change the name for those already carrying the title. Nexon just took the bullshit to an all new level.
    Darkpixie99KensamaofmariSherri
  • AbsintheAbsinthe
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,005
    Posts: 24
    Member
    The term Gypsy is a corruption of "Egyptian", as Europeans had thought that this was where the Roma initially came from. So, it came about from ignorance and it's continued use is a testament to insensitivity. It's like calling south Asian people black. The first time is a simple mistake, continuing to do so is rude.

    This is a common myth.

    Actually, the Romani people had no origin stories. They didn't know where they came from either. And Muslims were referring to them as Copts (Christian Egyptians) long before they arrived in England. The odds that the English independently made the same mistake is slim to none. In all probability it was the Romani people who designated themselves as Egyptian. Still, we will never now.

    And whatever the origin of the term it has absolutely no relevance to its use today.Take "man" for example. Man was just an indefinite article. It was often used in a demeaning manner to refer to adult male servants. The terms for distinguishig between gender were wer and wif. Wifman (woman) was used to refer to adult female servants. But clearly that is not how these terms are used today. If we are going to play these stupid little word games, we might as well ban communication altogether.
    Darkpixie99KensamaofmariSherri
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited September 1, 2019
    Absinthe wrote: »
    Where I live Romani-Americans traditionally designate themselves as either Rom or Gypsy. Rom expresses belonging to a Gypsy community. Gypsy expresses belonging to the Gypsy ethnic group. One can be Rom and not be Gypsy. One can be Gypsy and not be Rom. So the terms are not synonyms despite efforts by some to treat them as such. And they don’t typically get offended if people don’t know the difference.

    Thank you for the historical debunks and opinions of people in your area.
    If one does not know where one came from, then how can one possibly feel offended by others seeing them as fitting into the lore of some faraway and mystical place?
    To deny the term of "gypsy" having a vast amount of definitions might as well be like denying the ancient belief in myths of the Greek gods, due to claims of some Christian pastor.
    This sort of nonsensical social media outrage is why historians often say that modern man would never survive the medieval period.
  • AmarazAmaraz
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,230
    Posts: 186
    Member
    edited September 3, 2019
    They could have instead of gypsy; Nomad, Wanderer, Traveler, Fortune Teller, or, Sooth Sayer.

    Edit: OR PALM READER
    GretaDarkpixie99Sherri