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Alby Normal is too hard

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  • ChoCho
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    Is there a story reason for this? AFAIK, there's no reason to run Alby Normal.

    That's strikes me as odd to say there's no reason to run the first dungeon on a brand new character. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't be that difficult for fresh characters because it's Alby. I get the dungeon revamp is to cater to old players and the damage creep but it was Alby normal, the tutorial dungeon.
    Greta
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Cho wrote: »
    Is there a story reason for this? AFAIK, there's no reason to run Alby Normal.

    That's strikes me as odd to say there's no reason to run the first dungeon on a brand new character. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't be that difficult for fresh characters because it's Alby. I get the dungeon revamp is to cater to old players and the damage creep but it was Alby normal, the tutorial dungeon.

    Back then the only reason outside Generation Quests to run Alby was because all the newb training via school took place at Alby.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited December 9, 2019
    Cho wrote: »
    Is there a story reason for this? AFAIK, there's no reason to run Alby Normal.

    That's strikes me as odd to say there's no reason to run the first dungeon on a brand new character. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't be that difficult for fresh characters because it's Alby. I get the dungeon revamp is to cater to old players and the damage creep but it was Alby normal, the tutorial dungeon.

    Back then the only reason outside Generation Quests to run Alby was because all the newb training via school took place at Alby.

    Alby is good when you begin to train enchant.

    You can get a pass from whatshisname that's in love with the doctor girl. That dungeon is still pre-dungeon revamp IIRC. So, that can be used as an entry level dungeon.

    If you are a new character and if you know how to use your skills then Normal Alby is fully doable, since: (1) there are no range monsters, (2) each wave consists of single species, (3) multi-agro is limited to duel-agro and only for a few monster species. Obviously, newbies don't yet know how to use skill combos, but then doesn't that make sense that alby is for newbies to train in basic skill use?
  • ChoCho
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    Helsa wrote: »
    If you are a new character and if you know how to use your skills then Normal Alby is fully doable, since: (1) there are no range monsters, (2) each wave consists of single species, (3) multi-agro is limited to duel-agro and only for a few monster species. Obviously, newbies don't yet know how to use skill combos, but then doesn't that make sense that alby is for newbies to train in basic skill use?

    But if you're new and you accidently hit a spider in normal that's defending, there's all of your HP gone in two hits. There's also that thing where as you go to attack an enemy, another aggros you mid-attack and now you've got 2 enemies on you. I know to wait for enemy aggro and know the aggro ranges but I wouldn't expect a newbie to know this stuff. I'm ignoring the boss room because it's a boss, it can be difficult but I don't think the normal mobs should be.

    TBH revamped Alby Normal shouldn't exist. A harder Alby Normal is what the Hardmode dungeon is for. I'm double-checking it on my main and I'm noticing the Red Spiders in the boss room have about 200 HP while the White Spiders have 300 HP????? The boss seemed like it had about 375~ HP. Idk what they were doing.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Cho wrote: »
    Is there a story reason for this? AFAIK, there's no reason to run Alby Normal.

    That's strikes me as odd to say there's no reason to run the first dungeon on a brand new character. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't be that difficult for fresh characters because it's Alby. I get the dungeon revamp is to cater to old players and the damage creep but it was Alby normal, the tutorial dungeon.

    I am asking because of the several prerevamp variants that are far easier and which are required. I don't particularly see a need to make Alby Normal easier if there's no incentive to run it anyway; enchant training is the only reason why'd I ever run it.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    If you are a new character and if you know how to use your skills then Normal Alby is fully doable, since: (1) there are no range monsters, (2) each wave consists of single species, (3) multi-agro is limited to duel-agro and only for a few monster species. Obviously, newbies don't yet know how to use skill combos, but then doesn't that make sense that alby is for newbies to train in basic skill use?

    But if you're new and you accidently hit a spider in normal that's defending, there's all of your HP gone in two hits. There's also that thing where as you go to attack an enemy, another aggros you mid-attack and now you've got 2 enemies on you. I know to wait for enemy aggro and know the aggro ranges but I wouldn't expect a newbie to know this stuff. I'm ignoring the boss room because it's a boss, it can be difficult but I don't think the normal mobs should be.

    TBH revamped Alby Normal shouldn't exist. A harder Alby Normal is what the Hardmode dungeon is for. I'm double-checking it on my main and I'm noticing the Red Spiders in the boss room have about 200 HP while the White Spiders have 300 HP????? The boss seemed like it had about 375~ HP. Idk what they were doing.

    Of course but we've all been there. So then one learns to stand in a corner and use throw rock, or a bow, to bring them over one at a time, and then one learns to use defend and counterattack more often. Monsters don't have to be one-hit-to-kill monsters, that's why we have defensive skills. Finally, if one is having trouble figuring this out there's always the wiki or other players to ask, not to mention the pass from Trefor.
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Cho wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    If you are a new character and if you know how to use your skills then Normal Alby is fully doable, since: (1) there are no range monsters, (2) each wave consists of single species, (3) multi-agro is limited to duel-agro and only for a few monster species. Obviously, newbies don't yet know how to use skill combos, but then doesn't that make sense that alby is for newbies to train in basic skill use?

    But if you're new and you accidently hit a spider in normal that's defending, there's all of your HP gone in two hits. There's also that thing where as you go to attack an enemy, another aggros you mid-attack and now you've got 2 enemies on you. I know to wait for enemy aggro and know the aggro ranges but I wouldn't expect a newbie to know this stuff. I'm ignoring the boss room because it's a boss, it can be difficult but I don't think the normal mobs should be.

    TBH revamped Alby Normal shouldn't exist. A harder Alby Normal is what the Hardmode dungeon is for. I'm double-checking it on my main and I'm noticing the Red Spiders in the boss room have about 200 HP while the White Spiders have 300 HP????? The boss seemed like it had about 375~ HP. Idk what they were doing.

    Of course but we've all been there. So then one learns to stand in a corner and use throw rock, or a bow, to bring them over one at a time, and then one learns to use defend and counterattack more often. Monsters don't have to be one-hit-to-kill monsters, that's why we have defensive skills. Finally, if one is having trouble figuring this out there's always the wiki or other players to ask, not to mention the pass from Trefor.

    And for elves there's hide and humans play dead if things appear to look dire.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    And for elves there's hide and humans play dead if things appear to look dire.

    Elves can play dead too. Giants can't, we just chew up the scenery. Elf hide can't be engaged during combat, so the elf has to first play dead and wait then hide if they can get up fast enough before getting hit.
  • IyasenuIyasenu
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    Helsa wrote: »
    And for elves there's hide and humans play dead if things appear to look dire.

    Elves can play dead too. Giants can't, we just chew up the scenery. Elf hide can't be engaged during combat, so the elf has to first play dead and wait then hide if they can get up fast enough before getting hit.

    I still don't understand why Giants can't at least use Throw Rock.

    I remember that one event, Couple Breaker I think, that involved using Throw Rock gave Giants the ability to use it, but then took it away once the event ended.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    There was an old method that people used to use by summoning a pet while playing dead, sending the pet to smash, then de-summoning the pet as soon as it smashed, followed by summoning the next pet to rinse and repeat. If the Milletian only had one pet then they had to wait a full minute between summons.
  • IyasenuIyasenu
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    edited December 10, 2019
    Habimaru wrote: »
    There was an old method that people used to use by summoning a pet while playing dead, sending the pet to smash, then de-summoning the pet as soon as it smashed, followed by summoning the next pet to rinse and repeat. If the Milletian only had one pet then they had to wait a full minute between summons.

    Good ol' "Pet Missile".

    Heck, I was the player who didn't have ANY pets back then, so running a dungeon with someone who did was nice.
    Especially for bosses like Ogre Warriors in Barri or the Golem in Ciar.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited December 10, 2019
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    I still don't understand why Giants can't at least use Throw Rock.

    I remember that one event, Couple Breaker I think, that involved using Throw Rock gave Giants the ability to use it, but then took it away once the event ended.

    This must be what it's like when doves cry. I've been beaching about this very thing for YEARS!
    Habimaru wrote: »
    There was an old method that people used to use by summoning a pet while playing dead, sending the pet to smash, then de-summoning the pet as soon as it smashed, followed by summoning the next pet to rinse and repeat. If the Milletian only had one pet then they had to wait a full minute between summons.

    Memories. I remember when G9 first came out and an elf friend of mine was helping me with it. They PLAYED dead, I WAS dead and they kept going back and forth between hide and play dead all the while summoning pets for single hits. This was before the combat update when G9 was relatively harder to do.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    And for elves there's hide and humans play dead if things appear to look dire.

    Elves can play dead too. Giants can't, we just chew up the scenery. Elf hide can't be engaged during combat, so the elf has to first play dead and wait then hide if they can get up fast enough before getting hit.

    I still don't understand why Giants can't at least use Throw Rock.

    I remember that one event, Couple Breaker I think, that involved using Throw Rock gave Giants the ability to use it, but then took it away once the event ended.

    Aren't giants supposed to use stomp to get out of tough situations?
  • ChoCho
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    I don't know where you guys live, but I can't act after "rock throw". It doesn't "link" into anything. All I can do is take the hit unless it decides to strafe you instead of attacking you directly.
    I am asking because of the several prerevamp variants that are far easier and which are required. I don't particularly see a need to make Alby Normal easier if there's no incentive to run it anyway; enchant training is the only reason why'd I ever run it.

    There's Alby Beginner and Ciar Beginner but leaving Alby normal as is just because "no incentive to run it anyway" is just as bad as leaving untranslated text or glitches in the game imo. It's being apathetic and making a choice to ignore the problem. This isn't in Feedback and Suggestions since I just wanted to see what others thought about this.

    But I'm not really convinced that there needs to be extra steps involved (getting beginner passes from Trefor) just to make Alby Normal easier. It makes sense with Ciar since the Golem is a challenge of a boss. Golem crits are where players used to get the "experienced Death" title so it makes sense to have a small golem for beginners.
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    I still don't understand why Giants can't at least use Throw Rock.

    Rock Throw's description describes it as a taunt and Giants get their own race-exclusive AoE taunt as well as Throwing attack so it makes sense they don't get it. For play dead, I think it's because they wanted Giants to be tank focused at the time (Taunt, Vales Shield, Windguard. Stomp, etc.) and it's contradictory to give a Tank an aggro dropping action.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Cho wrote: »
    I don't know where you guys live, but I can't act after "rock throw". It doesn't "link" into anything. All I can do is take the hit unless it decides to strafe you instead of attacking you directly.
    I am asking because of the several prerevamp variants that are far easier and which are required. I don't particularly see a need to make Alby Normal easier if there's no incentive to run it anyway; enchant training is the only reason why'd I ever run it.

    There's Alby Beginner and Ciar Beginner but leaving Alby normal as is just because "no incentive to run it anyway" is just as bad as leaving untranslated text or glitches in the game imo. It's being apathetic and making a choice to ignore the problem. This isn't in Feedback and Suggestions since I just wanted to see what others thought about this.

    But I'm not really convinced that there needs to be extra steps involved (getting beginner passes from Trefor) just to make Alby Normal easier. It makes sense with Ciar since the Golem is a challenge of a boss. Golem crits are where players used to get the "experienced Death" title so it makes sense to have a small golem for beginners.

    My point is that I don't see it as a problem. Fixing this issue benefits no one it seems, and while it may be a bit of number reversal, I don't see the point. If people aren't bothered by it, then why treat it as an issue?

    I can understand nerfing the dual Girgashiy boss fight, or making Tagar easier. Those are pretty difficult missions that are a part of the main questline.

    This...from my memory, isn't. We may say that Alby needs to be easier because we see it as the beginner's dungeon, but with the prerevamp variants, I don't see Alby Normal being the "Beginner's dungeon" being that important either.
    Cho
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Aren't giants supposed to use stomp to get out of tough situations?

    Meh, I use stomp to open chests; that's about it, especially now since you can't stomp through walls anymore.

    Cho wrote: »
    I don't know where you guys live, but I can't act after "rock throw". It doesn't "link" into anything. All I can do is take the hit unless it decides to strafe you instead of attacking you directly.

    Throw rock has no knock back, stun, or ice-like slowing effects, as such monsters do react instantly to it. In that regard it is inferior to a magic bolt for getting monsters attention, but I am able to load defend or counter in time and I live in Eastern Canada. But if that timing is too sketchy for some then just loose an arrow to get a monsters attention; a new player has but to hold a bow to be able to shoot arrows.
    I am asking because of the several prerevamp variants that are far easier and which are required. I don't particularly see a need to make Alby Normal easier if there's no incentive to run it anyway; enchant training is the only reason why'd I ever run it.

    There is incentive for beginners since it provides a good balance between being challenging and possible.
    Cho wrote: »
    There's Alby Beginner and Ciar Beginner but leaving Alby normal as is just because "no incentive to run it anyway" is just as bad as leaving untranslated text or glitches in the game imo. It's being apathetic and making a choice to ignore the problem. This isn't in Feedback and Suggestions since I just wanted to see what others thought about this.

    Here I agree with you, since the argument "who cares" is not a good enough one for an academic discussion.
    Cho wrote: »
    But I'm not really convinced that there needs to be extra steps involved (getting beginner passes from Trefor) just to make Alby Normal easier. It makes sense with Ciar since the Golem is a challenge of a boss. Golem crits are where players used to get the "experienced Death" title so it makes sense to have a small golem for beginners.

    If the idea is that because a brand new character run by someone whom doesn't know how to play the game yet can't just fumble their way through the dungeon anyway means that Alby is too hard then here I do disagree. The pass from Trefor makes the dungeon for that kind of cake walk.
    Cho wrote: »
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    I still don't understand why Giants can't at least use Throw Rock.

    Rock Throw's description describes it as a taunt and Giants get their own race-exclusive AoE taunt as well as Throwing attack so it makes sense they don't get it. For play dead, I think it's because they wanted Giants to be tank focused at the time (Taunt, Vales Shield, Windguard. Stomp, etc.) and it's contradictory to give a Tank an aggro dropping action.

    Yeah, the lack of throw rock AND play dead, which both predate Taunt and Windguard, shows that Nexon intended giants to tank. The addition of the latter two skills is pretty clear that Nexon was trying to allow for setting up WoWc style raiding parties. The thing is ice bolt makes the point of not allowing throw rock moot but pointless. That's why I got ice bolt, so many years ago, in the first place; so I could draw monsters out of groups one at a time.
    Cho
  • asnscorpioasnscorpio
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    The tutorial mechanics for the gameplay make it rough for beginners to try normal dungeons if they don't fully complete it, but it is do-able. Problem is that instead of powering your way through it like a regular character can...you now have to use battleflow. Most players are too impatient and tend to rush through things, which the new line quets with the lady in dunbarton that makes leveling relatively easy and allows one to becoming stronger. The lack of battle flow grows and thus the game has become what it is now.

    The upcoming dungeon revamp is still being waited upon. It should change some things. Doing the dungeons themselves is pretty decent since you need some of the enchants on them. Even for starters it would be a good idea to have some stat boosts.

    If you follow the Giant vs. Elf storyline, there is a reason why they don't have play dead and throw rock. It's a proud race, therefore they do not obtain such cowardly skills; is what they mention for play dead anyways. Thus the throw attack and stomp counters such usually. Throw attack can be used on the run, stomp allows a 180 degree hit the pretty much is useful for constant spamming if the Formors don't have a passive defense for it. For the higher content...it's not used so much.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited December 10, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    I am asking because of the several prerevamp variants that are far easier and which are required. I don't particularly see a need to make Alby Normal easier if there's no incentive to run it anyway; enchant training is the only reason why'd I ever run it.

    There is incentive for beginners since it provides a good balance between being challenging and possible.
    Cho wrote: »
    There's Alby Beginner and Ciar Beginner but leaving Alby normal as is just because "no incentive to run it anyway" is just as bad as leaving untranslated text or glitches in the game imo. It's being apathetic and making a choice to ignore the problem. This isn't in Feedback and Suggestions since I just wanted to see what others thought about this.

    Here I agree with you, since the argument "who cares" is not a good enough one for an academic discussion.

    Academic discussion? What?

    It is pertinent here; we as players may be attempting these on newer characters, but we aren't looking things from the perspective of an actual new player; they may run Alby once for the sake of it. That's it. The lack of an incentive is arguably the worst of the two evils. At this point, we are advocating on behalf of people who do not care or see it as an issue.

    The bugs and untranslated text are issues; they affect our understanding of the game, the gameplay, etc, and can range from severe to minor. What of Alby Normal? Out of dozens of avenues to level up and to learn and train skills, of the various things I can envison a new player doing, running a Dungeon like Alby Normal ranks very low on that list of priorities.

    I admit, the new player experience is broken in many ways, but Alby Normal should at most take a backseat to the number of other issues. I doubt new players would walk to Alby Normal and be concerned with the overall difficulty level of that particular dungeon.

    The reasoning is beginning to look very circular to me anyway; Alby Normal must be easier because it is the tutorial dungeon (Is it? Or is it the easier variants?), and it is the tutorial dungeon because it is the easiest. Who says it has to be that way?
  • ChoCho
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    The lack of an incentive is arguably the worst of the two evils. At this point, we are advocating on behalf of people who do not care or see it as an issue.

    When you're new, there's no "incentive" or lack of. You go in to see what it's about and you decide after or during if you want to continue doing it. At least that's the type of player I was when I first started. Similar to the Explorer type in this video:



    I'm aware there are types of players who's first questions in a new game are "What is the best [thing] and what should I be doing right now?" or those that just check off all their quests but to limit new players in a game marketed on freedom by leaving things difficult because some older player doesn't see it as an issue yet feels like the wrong approach.
    I admit, the new player experience is broken in many ways, but Alby Normal should at most take a backseat to the number of other issues. I doubt new players would walk to Alby Normal and be concerned with the overall difficulty level of that particular dungeon.

    "They shouldn't fix this thing because they should be fixing other thing." They could fix both. I said in the first post, I feel that the beginner passes are hidden on Trefor and Ranald. Before, to learn windmill and other skills, you had to use conversations and keywords. Now, all the essential combat skills are given to you through training classes at Duncan's house. It's plausible that someone could never think to check Trefor for beginner passes or ignore it as unimportant information.
    The reasoning is beginning to look very circular to me anyway; Alby Normal must be easier because it is the tutorial dungeon (Is it? Or is it the easier variants?), and it is the tutorial dungeon because it is the easiest. Who says it has to be that way?

    I mean there's a lot that implies it is (Missing Townsfolk quest, Alby being in the beginning town, multiple signs in the lobby telling you how to drop items on the altar) but on the other hand, they did leave beginner dungeons as is so maybe it IS meant to be the tutorial now. Though they could also have just forgotten about it like the spirit weapon fossil dungeon or how they represent dungeons using the pre-revamped versions in G1~G3. Luckily the dungeon is still doable but the amount of damage the enemies dealt and take felt a bit too high. I urge you to try this on a fresh character and think about how much you needed to already know to run it safely.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    asnscorpio wrote: »
    The tutorial mechanics for the gameplay make it rough for beginners to try normal dungeons if they don't fully complete it, but it is do-able. Problem is that instead of powering your way through it like a regular character can...you now have to use battleflow. Most players are too impatient and tend to rush through things, which the new line quets with the lady in dunbarton that makes leveling relatively easy and allows one to becoming stronger. The lack of battle flow grows and thus the game has become what it is now.

    The upcoming dungeon revamp is still being waited upon. It should change some things. Doing the dungeons themselves is pretty decent since you need some of the enchants on them. Even for starters it would be a good idea to have some stat boosts.

    If you follow the Giant vs. Elf storyline, there is a reason why they don't have play dead and throw rock. It's a proud race, therefore they do not obtain such cowardly skills; is what they mention for play dead anyways. Thus the throw attack and stomp counters such usually. Throw attack can be used on the run, stomp allows a 180 degree hit the pretty much is useful for constant spamming if the Formors don't have a passive defense for it. For the higher content...it's not used so much.

    Yep, there are a lot of players that think they are good at fighting when they are merely powerful and have good equipment. The game seems to encourage this. You can see videos on YouTube of some end-of-game characters in end-of-game scenarios and the player is doing nothing more than dishing out more than they take with no, otherwise, clever fighting. Granted these folks are very knowledgeable about equipment, upgrades, reforges, and enchants but tactics, not so much.