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Nexon please, allow us to change race

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  • ChaosShadowChaosShadow
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,325
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    edited December 24, 2019
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Humans aim faster than elves and therefore can be said to be more objectively accurate than elves at actually hitting the target.

    Yeah, uh, no. Vision of Ladeca, Final Shot, and (I think) Relentless Assault all actively working together would like to say hi. Speaking from my own personal experiences with archery, I do not have any issues hitting my shots in a reliable amount of time, even if I only have Vision of Ladeca active, and I live on the East Coast of the US. Final Shot and (as far as I am aware) Relentless Assault only make the delay between my attacks shorter. Of course, that is just my experience. It will differ for other elf players who have higher ping than I do, but in the case of ping affecting speed, that affects humans too.

    You can say humans are better overall all you want to thanks to their Final Meme skill with 2H Sword meta, and I will agree that, yeah, once they get there with an Erg 50 Divine Blade, they are top tier for sure. They leave a path of destruction in their wake, becoming the kings of both AOE and Bossing in most cases if not all. But to say that humans are more accurate or faster with archery? Please. I have heard enough humans complaining about the Magnum Shot Dan 3 Test to say otherwise (and no, I am not saying elves have it super easy in that test by comparison. Even with decent ping, I suffered plenty with mine and will never do it again).

    Side note that is completely unrelated to the topic, and merely a matter of personal curiosity... Why are you using multiple formatting methods to emphasize your words? The italics, underlining, and encasement with «these» symbols all make your posts a tad more difficult to read than necessary at times... No offense intended. Again, I'm merely curious!

    On Topic
    I'm sorry to hear that you got bored of playing Mabinogi on Hard Mode, OP. If we do get a race change option, or you decide to start a new character with Blaanid, have fun being a Brio Slave until you get your Erg 50 Divine Blade! /s

    Kidding, kidding. My sarcasm aside, I would not mind seeing the addition of such a feature. I would never consider using it for most of my characters, but I do have a few that could use a race change. I think I share the sentiment of some of the others in this thread though, in that I do not really feel comfortable with the developers approaching an idea like this anytime soon, given how the Server Merge went...
    Greta
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,635
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    Between a choice of Magnum-Shot-spamming versus having Arrow-Revolver, I much prefer the Arrow-Revolver, and it does aim faster.
    You're also omitting the fact that Vision-of-Ladeca requires gaining sufficient main current-active levels in order to be triggered.
    Are you saying that Humans do not also get the same bonus(es) from also gaining Perks-Related levels ?
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Humans aim faster than elves and therefore can be said to be more objectively accurate than elves at actually hitting the target.
    Yeah, uh, no. Vision of Ladeca, Final Shot, and (I think) Relentless Assault all actively working together would like to say hi. Speaking from my own personal experiences with archery, I do not have any issues hitting my shots in a reliable amount of time, even if I only have Vision of Ladeca active, and I live on the East Coast of the US. Final Shot and (as far as I am aware) Relentless Assault only make the delay between my attacks shorter. Of course, that is just my experience. It will differ for other elf players who have higher ping than I do, but in the case of ping affecting speed, that affects humans too.

    You can say humans are better overall all you want to thanks to their Final Meme skill with 2H Sword meta, and I will agree that, yeah, once they get there with an Erg 50 Divine Blade, they are top tier for sure. They leave a path of destruction in their wake, becoming the kings of both AOE and Bossing in most cases if not all. But to say that humans are more accurate or faster with archery? Please. I have heard enough humans complaining about the Magnum Shot Dan 3 Test to say otherwise (and no, I am not saying elves have it super easy in that test by comparison. Even with decent ping, I suffered plenty with mine and will never do it again).

    Side note that is completely unrelated to the topic, and merely a matter of personal curiosity... Why are you using multiple formatting methods to emphasize your words? The italics, underlining, and encasement with «these» symbols all make your posts a tad more difficult to read than necessary at times... No offense intended. Again, I'm merely curious!

    On Topic
    I'm sorry to hear that you got bored of playing Mabinogi on Hard Mode, OP. If we do get a race change option, or you decide to start a new character with Blaanid, have fun being a Brio Slave until you get your Erg 50 Divine Blade! /s

    Kidding, kidding. My sarcasm aside, I would not mind seeing the addition of such a feature. I would never consider using it for most of my characters, but I do have a few that could use a race change. I think I share the sentiment of some of the others in this thread though, in that I do not really feel comfortable with the developers approaching an idea like this anytime soon, given how the Server Merge went...
  • NilremNilrem
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,880
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    Reminder that the strongest use of a potential race change feature would be on characters that are already highly developed.

    And I don't mean "oh look at mah damage" or "oh but I wanna tank".
    I mean highly developed as in, bare minimum, you are able to contribute or hold your own in content like Tech and Phantasm.
    And no, getting carried in any form of it doesn't count.

    This is why I mentioned the factors portion of my first post on this topic.
    A feature like this would have its strongest use on already powerful characters.

    Not really the sort of decision to make from being bored, honestly.

    Also, racial balance isn't something I'm considering.
    Anyone actually interested in such a feature would have their own personal preference of what race to become.
    This often boils down to things like playstyle, not understanding things often years back at character creation, and so on.

    Of course, a bunch of people would just hop on human or giant without thinking of the long term, but what happens happens.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    . . . so if we had unlimited race change we could all be whatever race we think is best in the moment, and these kind of arguments might be less common.
    GretaSherri
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
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    I wouldnt mind paying 100k nx or even 5k ap to race change.

    I dont really like using fh and having more movespeed is great for magic compared to snail humans

    It would sure beat doing rank1 everything again and over 200k nx of trade pots to transfer
  • ChaosShadowChaosShadow
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,325
    Posts: 133
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    edited December 24, 2019
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Between a choice of Magnum-Shot-spamming versus having Arrow-Revolver, I much prefer the Arrow-Revolver, and it does aim faster.

    Okay, I will admit that I did happen to forget about Arrow Revolver, but that's only because I rarely see human archers bother with it. I can understand why, as a human, you would prefer Arrow Revolver over Magnum Shot as it does fire off five shots faster than Human Magnum Shot does, thanks to its five shots per use before its three second cooldown compared to Magnum Shot's one shot per use before its 1.5 second cooldown.

    Comparatively speaking with an Elf, however, Arrow Revolver still falls short. Elf Magnum Shot cooldown is 0.5 seconds, and assuming that an Elf is able to consistently hit their target with great timing (which, with the previously mentioned skills and good ping, they often will), they can let loose up to 2800% damage at Dan 3 in an absolute minimum (that is, unrealistic, or KR server style) time of 2.5 seconds compared to Arrow Revolver, which deals a total of 690% damage every three seconds.

    I'd like to make a comparison between AR and Elf Ranged Attack, but I can't really say much about this one because Elf Ranged Attack doesn't have a damage percentage to offer. Speed-wise, however, I would argue that they are more or less the same based on casual observation.

    Habimaru wrote: »
    You're also omitting the fact that Vision-of-Ladeca requires gaining sufficient main current-active levels in order to be triggered.

    You're correct in that I did omit that fact, but when you have options that can carry you to level 100 in roughly an hour and a half at most (Shadow Missions to level 60, Baltane Basic to level 100. Or Baltane Elite to 150 if the character can handle it.), that level requirement is more of a minor inconvenience than anything else.
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Are you saying that Humans do not also get the same bonus(es) from also gaining Perks-Related levels ?

    I'm sorry, I'm not following you. What are you referring to when you say "Perks-Related levels?" When I read perks, I only think of the pet perks... If you're referring to the Ladeca Skill, then yes, I am saying that Humans do not get the aim speed benefit that Elves do. They got shafted in that regard, because all they get is a marginal movement speed buff.

    If you are referring to Relentless Assault, then no, I was not implying that humans do not get access to the skill. But even with Relentless Assault at level 10, humans simply cannot outrange an Elf with Vision of Ladeca and Final Shot. Vision of Ladeca by itself gives an elf up to 400% more aim speed, and Final Shot increases their Aim Speed by an extra 240%. Humans receive neither of these options, and only have the extra 200% that Relentless Assault Level 10 can offer, which is equally available to Elves.

    Unless I see a video proving otherwise, I'm more than confident that the numbers do not lie and speak well enough for themselves. Elves, in every regard when outfitted with their racial skills, are faster archers than humans.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    TL;DR : Sorry, I don't have a real tl;dr, just basically the story of some of my life (not necessarily), and bunches of comparisons and evaluating the «package-deals» that races get, with elves having significantly more draw-backs, such as very low STR from beginning all the way to End-Game, Penalties to DEX for wearing Heavy Armours, and absolutely no significant bonuses until End-Game. How humans/giants not only do not have much trade-off for their versatility/survivability, but also are not penalised for anything, such as Human-Archery still maintaining its damage even whilst wearing Heavy Armour, Final-Hit having become stronger than it was before due to even Counter-Attack no longer cancelling its duration and no drawbacks/penalties; Giants getting Physical-Damage Bonuses right from the out-set and even all the way into their End-Game, and essentially how the «Over-All Package» for the Races is a «Bunches of Penalties for Elves, no real Weaknesses to Humans, and Bonuses to Giants for all of their Physical-Attack Skills». In the end, Elves are Punished for being Elves, Humans... because not Aliens ?, and Giants are Rewarded for being Giants. Not trying to be «controversial» or anything about this by the way. I am just stating a combination of facts and opinions.
    (Below is Post-TLDR content)

    Fair enough. I cannot dispute the «End-Game» Result by the Mathematical-Statistics you provide, how-ever, getting to End-Game for an Elf is a huge «struggle» compared to getting to End-Game for either a Human or a Giant. That is certainly a very long time to feel practically useless until reaching the last maybe 10% of an Elf's career-path. For the most part, human-archery feels a lot more useful/reliable for the majority of the time that a human is transitioning from complete and total beginner towards the career-path of end-game human, even if the «End-Game» version of the Human does not exponentially accelerate the Human's Archer-Skills, but it's not like Humans really even need haxx0r-level Archery by that point given the extremely versatile Final-Hit skill which also still seems to be far more reliable for more situations for pretty much the human's whole entire career-path than Final-Shot.

    Over-all, Humans/Giants do maintain much more reliability and usefulness throughout their whole entire career-path for much less AP-Cost starting from the very beginning. Currently, with this recent update, Giants with Spirit-Lances are the talk of the Town, regarding highest potential maximum-damage of all choices (would this not thus be comparable to and End-Game Elf's DPS ?). Much as there are people who say that Giants «fall off» end-game... I am not convinced that their «falling off» is necessarily that hard and so it's not like they're suddenly debilitated from still being able to do/participate in end-game content. Now let's consider that Rabbie-Phantasm (Mirror-Version) dungeon. From the people on server I've encountered, when I've run it and tried to run it before, one time even getting to the Room with the Succubus-Queen as what might be regarded as an early low-mid-tier elf (partly because I am a cheap-skate who needs better equipment, and to actually upgrade all of my equipment, plus put the relevant strongest enchants I can get my hands on on all of them, due to incessant habit to try and cut corners on repair-costs), in just about every in-world discussion I have been in with others, they all say that running/clearing Phantasm is easy if you have a bunch of giants. Another time, I was running, I mean, attempting to run Tech-Duinn missions for Quest-Fulfillment-purposes, and there was absolutely no way I would have cleared any of them even on Normal-difficulty without the help of the Giants who joined us for the run.

    I might focus more on correcting my deficiencies soon enough though so I will have to significantly cut/limit the time I switch to these forums in order to get that out of the way. Just for the record, my whole entire Alch-Tab and Magic-Tab are nearly entirely r1 in Skill-Ranks. Historically, I had never actually focused solely on one character, but had active Human, Elf, and Giant characters, all used fairly equally, all completing bunches of Generations (at least until the Completion of the Shakespeare-Era anyway). I do now exclusively focus on this one particular character who just so ended up happening to be an elf. If Race-Change were an option, with the current way the system has been set-up for the races, the most-efficient route towards End-Game would definitely be Giant then what-ever other race to switch into if the Giant for some reason decides he no longer wishes to be a Giant (although for the life of me I cannot see why as Giants over-all have great survivability in Battle and it's not like they «Traded Off» being easily knocked out early game in order to become Harder-than-Diamonds End-Game; Humans also do not seem to have any particularly restrictive trade-offs for their over-all End-Game versatility; Elves, how-ever, most certainly struggle on average to their racial counter-parts before they are able to finally transition into their end-game; Elven-Archery is still out-classed by Human-Archery at the Early and Mid-Stages of Career-Development in terms of Accuracy [due to the existence of Arrow-Revolver and the fact that Human Regular Archery-Attack Aim-Speed is faster than Elven Regular Archery-Attack Aim-Speed] and Reliability, and that's what most people [here] are going to experience due to most of the population not yet necessarily being an End-Game Population [whilst some of them do exist they are mostly Humans and sometimes Giants]).

    Over-all, even if Elven-Archery is regarded as the highest potential End-Game DPS, the «over-all package» that elves bring to the table is one where they're just going to struggle in more departments than the other race-options. Seriously... what do humans or giants even struggle with prior to end-game ? Elves get squished more easily. Elves lose HUGE amounts of Dex for wearing Heavy Armour. Humans can wear that Heavy Armour and not take any penalty to their Dex-related skill-sets. Am I missing something here...? Human Final-Hit even became stronger than it used to be now that Counter-Attack no longer cancels its duration and there are no significant weaknesses that I can think of that humans have had to endure as a «trade-off» to eventually be able to obtain that kind of powerful ability. Giants just wreck everything from the very beginning of their careers, and if they «fall off» towards end-game, that «trade-off» isn't particularly enough to warrant so-called «Giant QQ-Threads», but elves on the other hand... have had a very long history of what some forumers refer to as too many «Elf QQ Threads» as some people might remember. I even eventually posted translations with screen-shots from Korea's very own (Korean-version) Mabi-forums where even the Koreans were saying that Elves sucked, and one guy (on an old version of these forums) who saw that eventually said that he'd «switch over to the elf side» (of so-called QQ threads) due to him mentioning something about keeping his word on that if even the Koreans were complaining about elf-weakness (I never actually saw/read the post where he made where he made such a promise but that is apparently what he claimed).

    I don't know why people have to make such a big deal over the claims/experiences of others whose experiences with their elf-characters were less-than-optimal but it's almost like that whole EvG racial-tension thing somehow being transferred and taken over into the so-called OOC-version. Another thing elves also struggle with is no ability to double-wield, and it's not like their warrior-class would even come close to comparing to that of a human, given their very low amount of STR-growth. So very low melee-attack-damage early on (and pretty much their whole entire career), even their Archery skills deal pitiful damage starting out, so what is an elf to do besides pick up Alchemy (although now that Chain-Blade exists I suppose that no longer really matters). Humans have no «stats» draw-backs. Giants only have marginally deficient INT-stat draw-backs but it is definitely not significant enough to hinder them other than making Mage an inefficient Main-Talent choice (which is ridiculously «slow» anyway in comparison to just using the Physical-Attacks that they automatically get bonus Physical-Damage for anyway... from the beginning). Do elves get any kind of automatic ranged/racial Bonus-Damage from the beginning ? The only thing is the double-shot of Normal-Attack Ranged which hits like a pea-shooter in the beginning. Try as I might, the «package-deal» pretty much «shafts» the starting elf who will still continue to struggle even mid-career in more ways than any human or giant ever has to experience, Humans will always find their Final-Hit to be very reliable for their whole entire Career, and Giants can just brush off most attempts to damage them whilst exercising a significant Bonus that they get to the use of their Physical-Skills right from the beginning.
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Between a choice of Magnum-Shot-spamming versus having Arrow-Revolver, I much prefer the Arrow-Revolver, and it does aim faster.

    Okay, I will admit that I did happen to forget about Arrow Revolver, but that's only because I rarely see human archers bother with it. I can understand why, as a human, you would prefer Arrow Revolver over Magnum Shot as it does fire off five shots faster than Human Magnum Shot does, thanks to its five shots per use before its three second cooldown compared to Magnum Shot's one shot per use before its 1.5 second cooldown.

    Comparatively speaking with an Elf, however, Arrow Revolver still falls short. Elf Magnum Shot cooldown is 0.5 seconds, and assuming that an Elf is able to consistently hit their target with great timing (which, with the previously mentioned skills and good ping, they often will), they can let loose up to 2800% damage at Dan 3 in an absolute minimum (that is, unrealistic, or KR server style) time of 2.5 seconds compared to Arrow Revolver, which deals a total of 690% damage every three seconds.

    I'd like to make a comparison between AR and Elf Ranged Attack, but I can't really say much about this one because Elf Ranged Attack doesn't have a damage percentage to offer. Speed-wise, however, I would argue that they are more or less the same based on casual observation.

    Habimaru wrote: »
    You're also omitting the fact that Vision-of-Ladeca requires gaining sufficient main current-active levels in order to be triggered.

    You're correct in that I did omit that fact, but when you have options that can carry you to level 100 in roughly an hour and a half at most (Shadow Missions to level 60, Baltane Basic to level 100. Or Baltane Elite to 150 if the character can handle it.), that level requirement is more of a minor inconvenience than anything else.
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Are you saying that Humans do not also get the same bonus(es) from also gaining Perks-Related levels ?

    I'm sorry, I'm not following you. What are you referring to when you say "Perks-Related levels?" When I read perks, I only think of the pet perks... If you're referring to the Ladeca Skill, then yes, I am saying that Humans do not get the aim speed benefit that Elves do. They got shafted in that regard, because all they get is a marginal movement speed buff.

    If you are referring to Relentless Assault, then no, I was not implying that humans do not get access to the skill. But even with Relentless Assault at level 10, humans simply cannot outrange an Elf with Vision of Ladeca and Final Shot. Vision of Ladeca by itself gives an elf up to 400% more aim speed, and Final Shot increases their Aim Speed by an extra 240%. Humans receive neither of these options, and only have the extra 200% that Relentless Assault Level 10 can offer, which is equally available to Elves.
    Unless I see a video proving otherwise, I'm more than confident that the numbers do not lie and speak well enough for themselves. Elves, in every regard when outfitted with their racial skills, are faster archers than humans.
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
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    So I'm not reading that wall of text, but AR isn't even close to magnum damage. At erg50 on a bow standing right beside the target without vision/FS/Relentless you aim to 100% with magnum in under a second. Standing beside a target with vision or final shot up you can magnum as fast as you can and the shots will be at 100% accuracy. I don't care about your subjective opinion on it because if human archery was even comparable in the most remote sense it wouldn't be behind elf over 1m+ damage on clobber. This isn't a conversation about human vs elf archery on a fresh character. At least in the thread about magic, magic is usable for a lot of content human archery is a meme at best and anyone using it would 100% be a leech.
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    TL;DR that was suppose to be short but is it ever with me.
    I was going to make a big post about race balance and throw in some math but I'm just repeating my previous posts. So to be succinct and right to the point, Elf is trash on NA outside Oregon because range was designed when the game had 3 skillsets, melee which gets you killed but is fast and good damage, magic thats slow and big damage from far away with less risk of being up in the enemy's face but easily interrupted by one goblin giving your girl a slap on the behind, and range which is high damage far away without charging so they had to balance it with the random chance to not hit the enemy at all. That was fine when there wasnt like 20 talents none of which but range have a "missing" mechanic and the game has shifted to a "high speed action" style of gameplay instead of a "rock paper scissors psuedo-RTS".
    Of course this use to work a lot better before hotshots started injecting dlls to freeze the memory address of aim rate to 100% on the client so now we've got this broken system that chatters back and forth with the server comparing client and server aim meters that desyncs the higher your latency to the server due to mabi using an in order encrypted tcp stream, this works fine with sub 5ms latency you'd see anywhere in Korea, but breaks the skillsets usability in NA.

    So whats the fix? Remove the aim meter mechanic and replace it with a drawtime mechanic, if you shoot right away the skill wont do full damage like using magic with 1 charge instead of 5, make draw time faster than magic since range doesnt have the AOE capacity of magic to make it fair obviously, and replace aim ratio boosts with draw time reductions. With such a system functionally range ends up working the same for the people it already worked for so long as devcat sets the timings correctly, but now it also works for everyone else too.

    The cold hard truth though? Range works in Korea so it won't be changed to fix NA (maybe some of the devs do want to fix it, but corporate isn't going to let them if the word about how broken the functionality is on NA has even been able to reach them) and elves will be eternally stunted on NA due to being added after range but also being stronger with it and needing balanced by making them do no damage if you use armor so any miss is an autodeath (ms helps but it was also nerfed for all races just to nerf it on elf and punish them if they try to survive w/o armor and do damge) and making them weaker with functionally every other skillset.

    I doubt many people really want race changes, or that many who say they would "change to elf" would stay that way without ranged being fixed but really if devcat wont fix range why would they add something more complicated that touches the character database and allow race changes. If they want you to buy NX they dont need to add new race change functionality and will add a new item ID for a wing they already have modeled and set it to spawn in a new hex code color and give it a new color name prefix with a 0.12~% chance to spawn.

    All that aside what do you do if you're on NA, outside of Oregon, and made the same mistake as I did playing an Elf for almost 7 years and dropping about 2k on rebirth cards? Just dump it and dust off that human on your character window, forget about the gear just get pre-reforged FH cd/duration 15+ levels or so to start and a Fanatic sword, move inventory bags as you see fit through your bank tabs, do blaanid during 2x ap and use orange prisms since the description lies and it adds +1 ap gain even during events so you get 15000/36000~ AP needed to cap every skill in the game with very minimal effort, dump it into everything that adds STR after you max warrior talent then spam wizard hm for gold to dump into erg for the sword to get more gold faster and just save till you can buy atk delay hat be it ranger or abyss horn and atk speed armor be it sg or ranger, get light armor if you care about chain dmg as a second skillset or heavy if you wanna play FH sword + LC spam with ego since hat/body have FH reforges and you can get LC dmg/horse range on glove/shoe and cd reduction on red echostone.

    If you legitimately want race change just play another character don't sit on it for years and rely on devcat to add a feature which is complex and wont easily draw in profit it's unlikely to happen and you're just suffering the race you dont want to play for no reason, leveling and ap gain have been massively trivialized now with blaanid baltane and revived illusion I play less active than ever and my giant's a rebirth and a few fullswings in revived illusion adv away from 35k after about 2 years while my elf was sitting at only 25k when I stopped playing her.
    Yes I know I just said play human instead of elf and I play giant, human is the best race mechanically and mathematically and is the most played in korea and thus the favored race by the devs, but giant uniquely has the most defense potential so I can air headed autopilot play the game on 2 hours of sleep and not die, if you're like that giant will be more enjoyable but falls far behind in single target DPS vs final hit, and AOE DPS vs final hit with erg 2h, you do get an extra grouping option with stampede though.
    I know I'm "debby downer" here bursting the daydreams about race change and not having to do skills again but as someone who's been run through the ringer with races in this game, I'm offering the best existing solution with guaranteed results of improving your enjoyment of the game, most skills are a joke now anyways between constant 2x training events, constant 1 day 2x skill and all skill pots that stack, talent giving free 2x training, being 200 current level giving double skill exp gains ontop of all the training mults (get from blaanid quests and rb to change talent w/o resetting level from tickbox on first screen after chat with Nao). If you're playing a race you dont enjoy and are "heavily invested into it", staying on it longer wont make you have more fun you just gotta grab the bull by the horns jump on another character of a better race and work on it.
    HabimaruSherri
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    This is the issue that we have with Elven-Archery. It's not Ranged Attack. It's more like Point-BLANK Projectile-Attack. The whole point of ranged (traditionally anyway) is supposed to be so that you can hit whilst away from your target at a distance, but Elves (in Mabinogi) cannot do that and still remain accurate. Humans, how-ever, most-certainly can, especially with Arrow-Revolver. What is the point of even calling it «Ranged» if you literally have to be right up close and Point-BLANK to the target...? There's a whole entire Talent called «CLOSE Combat» for a reason. It is specifically designed to be up close and efficient up close. Ranged Archery ? See, this is yet another one of the many numerous «limitations» to add, amongst the numerous other limitations that elves already have... I want to stay the hell away from the target whilst I shoot it from afar, not get right up to it Point-BLANK, that I could have already done as a Human with Final-Hit or even as a Giant who excels at Point-BLANK «Range» Combat. If I could still access my FFXI account & used the Ranger-Job (bows/arrows/etc), not only is it the highest end-game DPS «Talent-Equivalent» Job in the entire MMORPG, but it does the job efficiently from a distance, rather than being required to get up Point-BLANK close to the target in order to avoid either constantly missing the target or taking forever to aim at the target..
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Standing beside a target with vision or final shot up you can magnum as fast as you can and the shots will be at 100% accuracy.

  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
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    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Can you stop this CRAP?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's tedious to read what you type, but if it makes you feel special go for it I guess. First off, real world comparisons? Nah. Second Lars' shots have next to no power behind them, it's fast and mostly accurate that's it. Second it seems this topic really got under your skin for whatever reason, you don't need to be point blank it's the fastest dps though. Final shot and or Vision makes magnum go to 100% in under a second anyway unless you're at max range.
    Really seems like you have low damage so you don't notice a difference. What is your total level and max before buffs? I wanna know if this is worth debating or not.
    ChaosShadow
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Certainly, the earth-world has its own limitations, just like the Erinn-world, but those shots are not necessarily lacking in power considering that he did manage to shoot through chain-mail (or was it ring-mail) armour in rapid-succession. No, I am not «salty» about any of this, but I do remember what I experienced between elf-archery versus human-archery. Things of course, have since then changed, what with the introduction of the new «Potentials» system, the added Chain-Blade Talent, the absolutely insane power-gap-jump that came into existence as a result of Apocalypse-Generations, etc.

    I was gone for a while for various reasons, but, upon my return, I switched to this elf-character as being the exclusive main/primary character, rather than jumping around between-characters or logging on solely to do multiple Adventurer-Seals Quest-Dailies on multiple characters. When I returned to being active a few months ago, I had a little over 3K in normal-levels, but at present as I respond in this post it is now exactly 10805 cumulative-levels (3575 cumulative for Exploration-levels).

    I don't have everything «optimum» right now, that is a given, and it's going to take me quite a bit of focus/concentration-time in order to re-do all of the enchants and stuff onto my equipment that I had with my human-character (Oblivion/Thief on everything at minimum). I don't know what the «argument» is you are trying to reference, but, for an efficiency test comparison, what I will do is run and video-record my elf-character doing Battle-for-Taillteann Hard-Mode on Solo using solely archery (but mounted), then do the same with just my human-character using solely archery (still going to get on a mount though as it would only be fair for clear-time purpose-comparisons). I think I left the human at around 6K cumulative if I remember correctly, nor has the human done any of the newer generations (none of Apocalypse), so we'll need to come up with a proper idea of what kinds of clear-times can/should be expected.

    I have definitely taken my elf-character a significant way towards more progression, and I expect that his clear-time will be faster than the human's, and the human has none of the «Potential» stuff done yet (not even talked to Blaanid). I do have various bows/cross-bows, so maybe I should have both of them use the same bow and certain set of arrows. Actually, with the Master-Plan Event going on right now, let's just go with having both of them use the Ranged Rental-Weapon : Celtic Cross-Bow, then I can at least try to use up a bunch of those Bolts from that Special Bolt Bundle that I have (5000 bolts) of which there are still 4523 bolts left to use at the time of this writing. Does that sound fair enough ? Don't expect any «miracles» though as both of my characters are not «End-Game» material, how-ever, even with the fastest clear-time on my Elf using pure-archery, I believe I can still top that with my human-character using just a lance, but I guess we'll see when I get to video-recording my test-runs for comparisons, and this way nobody should think that I was taking extra time on the elf on purpose.

    There actually also used to be a time in Mabinogi where I was one of the only Milletians at that low of a cumulative-level that I was at that time who could «solo» BFT2 even on Advanced (or was it Intermediate ? This was also before the existence of «Elite» Passes by the way) when it first came out, not because I had any sort of impressive damage (I really didn't), but solely because I came up with a brilliant tactic/strategy to make use of «agro-control» measures by running right past each spawn-point, causing only the Shadow-Archers to give chase, and they eventually dropped their agro if I created enough distance, which allowed me to focus on targeting one at a time without fear of his «buddies» ganging up on me (the Nostalgia... ;o). Actually, now I remember, I could solo it on Intermediate, and if I had a group who would actually listen to the methods of my Tactics, we could easily clear it even on Advanced, despite being a bunch of newbies who were not even 800 cumulative levels back in the day (whilst just about everybody else seemed to just not even bother with the mission at all since they assumed it was not even possible to win). Anyway, I will use the same concept for both the human and the elf, so, hopefully no complaints that I am being «ridiculously cautious» in isolating one at a time like that main character in the current animé that translates as : Cautious Hero. Yes, the «clear-time» might not be as fast as it would be if I'd just wrecklessly charge into the middle, but, why would I want to do that, when I can «show-case» to everyone what «old-school tactics/strategy» was all about ? We already see plenty of everyone rushing to charge in and one-shot AoE-OHKO everything these days anyway. Time to re-live a few memories of when you actually had to think to survive and yet still be able to clear the mission before the time ran out. Does this all sound satisfactory to you ?

    For my stats, just for the record, I actually «Main» the Magic-Talent, but I did work on gaining more +Dex as well as equipping my Bohemian-Set for purposes of improving the damages to my Archer-talent, and this is a screen-shot of my currrent set-up, taken along with most of my Combat-Tab.
    cxc5fqx.png
    The only reason Final-Shot is not fully Pink-Barred is because I Skill-Reset-Capsule'd it (more than a few times), but, if I bothered to take the time to do so, I know where I can go and how to do the training to easily fulfill the requirements for Master of Final-Shot Title. Admittedly, Final-Shot is something that I had not been in the habit of using, historically, unless I was at a Boss-Dungeon-Room. I am developing a habit of using it more often but that is only a recent thing on my part...
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Can you stop this CRAP?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's tedious to read what you type, but if it makes you feel special go for it I guess. First off, real world comparisons? Nah. Second Lars' shots have next to no power behind them, it's fast and mostly accurate that's it. Second it seems this topic really got under your skin for whatever reason, you don't need to be point blank it's the fastest dps though. Final shot and or Vision makes magnum go to 100% in under a second anyway unless you're at max range.
    Really seems like you have low damage so you don't notice a difference. What is your total level and max before buffs? I wanna know if this is worth debating or not.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,395
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    edited December 26, 2019
    Allow crossbreeding. Mix up the gene pool.
    Don't be Parthalonian.
    HabimaruRadiant Dawn
  • MaiaMaia
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,965
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    edited December 26, 2019
    Switching is easy enough. I dropped a 40k human to make a 40k giant. Took 8 months to hit 40k, cap 5 techs/all skills, all renown’s, cap divine link crusader, etc etc. not trying to flex, the point is that it’s super easy. Buy forgetful and rb pots when they’re 2m or less. Hoard them. Use them during 2x exp events or something. Transfer gear or deal with it later. I didn’t get good gear until 6-7 months in because all my resources went toward total. Timing is everything. Buy what you need when it’s cheap, even if that means hoarding a ton of crystals, exp pots, rb pots, etc. Think long term and anyone can do it.

    Also, 2x ap events are super overrated unless you don’t plan on leveling above like 20k or so. Just getting to 40k gives you tons of extra ap you can use to ap train and rank up everything. 2x exp events will save you a lot of time per rebirth in baltane or whatever you run to level up which makes the grind half as annoying. Twice as much exp is twice as many levels is still twice as much ap in the long run.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,635
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    Oh, yes, finally, thanks for giving me a good opportunity to finally sticker this in for the amusement...!
    Allow crossbreeding. Mix up the gene pool.
    Don't be Parthalonian.
    0830eeb0b5384523003dc521ab576861.png
    Kensamaofmari
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,390
    Posts: 75
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    Cautious Hero. Yes, the «clear-time» might not be as fast as it would be if I'd just wrecklessly charge into the middle, but, why would I want to do that, when I can «show-case» to everyone what «old-school tactics/strategy» was all about ? We already see plenty of everyone rushing to charge in and one-shot AoE-OHKO everything these days anyway. Time to re-live a few memories of when you actually had to think to survive and yet still be able to clear the mission before the time ran out. Does this all sound satisfactory to you ?

    Old school tactics? You mean things like "Quick everybody push it into a corner and spam windmill" or "I'll firebolt it then when it hits my defense you smash it" all that is, is rose tinted goggle nonsense. It's also funny that this opinion seems to be shared by people who can't run elite tech missions, do you know the amount of things you need to do and keep track of in elite Seven nightmares? Things like using anchor rush to I-frame the waves of damage or having one person group mobs without dying? No you don't know this because you're stuck in nostalgia from when shadow wizard elite was the hardest content the game had to offer. In revived illusion every time you die, balor gets buffed it can hit the point where he becomes impossible to kill, so you can't just "run in and aoe ohko everything" because dying sets everyone else back.

    I don't care if you can't run this to show a comparison. I do care that you're basically saying you understand game balance because you'll run content that's outdated by 5+ years as if it was a measure to current content. Your whole post just reads "Back in my day we had to walk uphill both ways through the snow" and you can't even show off what is currently the harder content because you'd time out on the mission before clearing it.
    TwelieGreta
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Whether you like it or not, I will run content that is appropriate for my characters for and from where they left off since the time of my partial-forced absence, not to mention the fact that less than 1% of the whole entire server-population is even capable of or even considers running Tech Duinn Elite. That content is literally «ghost town world» and whatever «tactics» I use will be appropriate to the tools that are available to me. I ran some tests and can already tell you for a fact that human-archery is FAR MORE ACCURATE than Elven-Archery, capturing it on video, even when the human is shooting from a distance.

    No, the Arrow-Revolver may not have as high of a damage-potential per shot as Elven Magnum-Shot at 3500%, but Arrow-Revolver crits fairly often, enough for me to have to consider the «math» where five rapid-fire crits at 680% damage being pulled off in 1.5 seconds should still be able to match or even out-do the Magnum-Shot that takes 1.5 seconds to aim properly per shot if the Elf doesn't want to risk missing the target. Arrow-Revolver also has a fairly short cool-down, can be spammed relatively frequently, unlike Final-Shot which can only be used for a short amount of time and has a long-ass cool-down.

    A couple more «issues» with your post is that you seem to respond in a manner where it is like you yourself have been quite «triggered» with it given your tone even after claiming that the topic was some-how under my skin... additionally, when you say that everybody has to be at Tech-Duinn Elite-Mission levels to make any comparisons or give any kind of feedback, you know what that is called ? Elitism. Why don't you take some time off for a bit to watch some George Carlin and his thoughts on Golfing, and don't forget to read the comments-sections to those videos, too. Besides, I have done «play-testing» before in other titles, and the fact that you're referring to «old content» as «outdated» content already shows and even admits to the absolute imbalance that the newer content has caused to the previously existing content (much of which almost nobody ever even bothers to run anyway...*cough*Theatre-missions*cough*).

    Many people already agree that the «power-gap» going from the previous generations into the Apocalypse-generations is absolutely ludicrous. Also, I have run Tech Duinn missions in groups before, with success (when it was with Giants), and staying alive is less about «strategic» measures and more of a «rush your DPS on a single target at a time» as fast as you possibly can because you have NO means of «agro-control» (or at least few options) besides maybe some Pet-AoE-summoning. Believe you me, when running that kind of content, I would not choose «Archery» as my first choice of Talent, especially when I already have much better single-target-burst-damage using a Fusion-Bolt fast-casting wand which is capable of one-shotting the entire spawn of four fomors each wave during the Elite-version of Tailteann Defensive-Battle if the critical-hit activates (witnessed by Megamanbg [don't know if he uses these forums] earlier yesterday on the Alexina server who also happened to be an elf, who himself is capable of solo-ing Veteran-dungeons, as an elf, so he definitely qualifies for your «Elitist» requirements of being an Elf who runs end-game content, who agrees with much of my assessment about outside-of-Korea-version elf-archery).

    Anyway, Arrow-Revolver is fairly reliable, even from a distance. Elven Magnum-Shot is unreliable to «spam» if you are not at Point-BLANK range, and cannot be «spammed» from a distance unless you want to never even hit your target. I literally have video-proof of this now (just haven't edited it to not waste everyone's time with all of the down-time stuff), and I am absolutely convinced that if I bothered to train up my Human-Character to catch up to the stats and skill-ranks of my Elven-Character, that the human-character would easily be able to solo BFT2 even on Elite with a faster clear-time that I could pull off on the elf, when doing a «Archery ONLY» comparison (in a real run, I would most certainly be more-likely to use a skill-set or set of skills that is either not Archery or not solely Archery). This is merely meant to be used as an «example» for Human-Archery's reliability in comparison to the less reliable Elven-Archery, and if you don't like this choice of demonstrating and show-casing what a human is capable of in comparison to an elf, just because it isn't being done in Tech Duinn Elite, then too bad; I am showing something that most of the player-base can relate to, and because it's also an excellent choice for me to be able to show-case the usefulness of my Pet A.I. when used efficiently (which, some might consider being unfortunately, now requires Divine-Link so that the pet doesn't just end up being one-shot cannon-fodder).

    The only reason I bother to use archery on my elf-character are currently for the following reasons :
    ➡ Keeping my distance from those suicide-bombers in dungeons such as Barri Advanced so that I don't get blown up while dropping their health (this will also usually be in the form of mounted archery so that I can run around to a safer part of the room so as to not get hit by explosions like the rest of my party)
    ➡ It's the fastest method I have as an Elf that I can think of right now to clear the «Keeping Cover» quest-daily near Metus provided that I get up & close at Point-BLANK Range on a Fast Mount (if I were using a human-character it would just be a combination of Shylock's Step + Final Hit)
    ➡ I have been historically used to using mounted archery in the Battle-For-Tailteann missions in particular

    Next time I run a Tech Duinn, even though it probably won't be on Elite, I will try to make it a point to get it video-recorded, then you can see that I'd have to be absolutely insane to bother with using Archery, when I can just Fusion-Cast in semi-rapid succession, with a 100% hit-rate to my target (unlike Archery that not only misses a lot, simultaneously, also does laughable damage if not at its «end-game» stages). I don't know what the damage-numbers would be in Tech, probably much lower, but, when having run content elsewhere, the first shot of my Full-Cast Fire-Ice Fusion-Bolt has hit up to something like 18K, probably not that «impressive» to you end-game focused Elitists, but it's only a Phoenix Fire-Wand because of the combination of the fact that I am a cheap-skate who hasn't bothered to go out of my way to empty my bank-account just to buy a stronger wand, and the fact that this current active-main character is still catching up with one of my prior main characters in trying to get Magic-Craft ranked up so that I can just make a better wand for myself eventually. For now, modest as it is for mage-equipment, I still get the job done that I need to for all of the «outdated» content that I might need to run to clear quests/dailies/etc.

    It should be noted that, back in the day, even ONE «mistake» was FATAL to your whole entire party. Mana was scarce, Nao-stones did not rain from the sky like they do now, potions had to be used conservatively, getting hit even ONCE often meant DEATH (well, other than the lore that Milletians cannot and do not actually die), so no, I also cannot necessarily agree that the «newer» content is necessarily «harder» content that requires «more strategy» than the previous rock-paper-scissors style pseudo-RTS environment... more like... newer content is more about the inconvenience of needing to beef up your equipment to be able to dish out enough DPS so that you have a snowball's chance in hell of being able to clear missions before the time runs out. That's not «strategy» ...that is entirely button-mash as much DPS as you can through the mission which is semi-mindless. Veteran-Dungeons are also not strategy but just pure grinding down health. Perhaps you have forgotten, but, when Battle for Taillteann II was first released, it was considered one of the hardest missions for people to attempt, because nobody else (other than myself apparently) could figure out how NOT to get «hit» by those Archers and, like I mentioned earlier, even being hit ONCE was fatal to your party's progression. Tech Duinn is not «difficult» because you have to «think» about how to deal with your next sets of opponents; it's solely «difficult» because it requires being equipped with what amounts to essentially 800 million or more gold worth of equipment to even be able to reach the boss-room without timing out. I do not consider that «harder» content in terms of «strategic» difficulty. More like a sort of P2W gap if anything.
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Cautious Hero. Yes, the «clear-time» might not be as fast as it would be if I'd just wrecklessly charge into the middle, but, why would I want to do that, when I can «show-case» to everyone what «old-school tactics/strategy» was all about ? We already see plenty of everyone rushing to charge in and one-shot AoE-OHKO everything these days anyway. Time to re-live a few memories of when you actually had to think to survive and yet still be able to clear the mission before the time ran out. Does this all sound satisfactory to you ?
    Old school tactics? You mean things like "Quick everybody push it into a corner and spam windmill" or "I'll firebolt it then when it hits my defense you smash it" all that is, is rose tinted goggle nonsense. It's also funny that this opinion seems to be shared by people who can't run elite tech missions, do you know the amount of things you need to do and keep track of in elite Seven nightmares? Things like using anchor rush to I-frame the waves of damage or having one person group mobs without dying? No you don't know this because you're stuck in nostalgia from when shadow wizard elite was the hardest content the game had to offer. In revived illusion every time you die, balor gets buffed it can hit the point where he becomes impossible to kill, so you can't just "run in and aoe ohko everything" because dying sets everyone else back.

    I don't care if you can't run this to show a comparison. I do care that you're basically saying you understand game balance because you'll run content that's outdated by 5+ years as if it was a measure to current content. Your whole post just reads "Back in my day we had to walk uphill both ways through the snow" and you can't even show off what is currently the harder content because you'd time out on the mission before clearing it.

  • AlshianAlshian
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    It be great if combo cards can be made perm, else its pay to win just to have your best damaging combo expire and always had to pay money for it.
  • TwelieTwelie
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,075
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    edited December 28, 2019
    Habimaru wrote: »
    getting to End-Game for an Elf is a huge «struggle» compared to getting to End-Game for either a Human or a Giant. That is certainly a very long time to feel practically useless until reaching the last maybe 10% of an Elf's career-path

    Chain being implemented has helped immensely with this to the point I don't see it as a huge issue. Just upgrading and enchanting a beginner chainblade, training chain talent, archery, and commerce gives you a really good damage output for most midgame content. (Paired with divine link for extra stats.)
    Yes, gearing is tedious and annoying, and very expensive as an elf to get good damage output on bow, but its something that is easily viable to work towards using chainblade.
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,390
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<sniP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


    I'm going to drop this because you have zero idea what you're talking about. You're sitting here talking about how tech missions work when you can't even run them, let alone elite where strategy matters. Things like stacking RI and support shot to clear zombie hallway, and you also mentioned a lack of aggro control yet tenacious taunt exists as a skill, shuriken auto attacks with divine link change aggro, there's a lot. As another testament to my point, when g9 came out tail missions weren't harder than tara and on top of that shadow wizard was also harder than bft2. You have an inflated ego assuming you were the only one smart enough to be able to run bft2. If demonizing me as an elitist p2w player helps you deal with being irrelevant running outdated content go for it I'm not going to bother replying.
    TwelieGretaChaosShadow