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Have We Power-Crept...?

HabimaruHabimaru
Mabinogi Rep: 3,630
Posts: 761
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edited May 2, 2020 in General Chat
I will try to say a lot in a few words...: Poll-Options
  1. Power-Creeping...?18 votes
    1. Yes, Power-Creep...
       6% (1 vote)
    2. Nah, more like... Power-Hop
       6% (1 vote)
    3. Nah, more like... Power-Skip
       0% (0 votes)
    4. Nah, more like... Power-Jump
       6% (1 vote)
    5. How about...: Power-Mega-Dash...?
       0% (0 votes)
    6. How about...: Power-Mega-Jump...?
       0% (0 votes)
    7. How about...: Power-Turbo-Boosting...?
       0% (0 votes)
    8. Are you kidding!? It's been more like a Power-Warp
       11% (2 votes)
    9. Are you kidding!? It's been more like a Power-Teleportation
       0% (0 votes)
    10. Are you kidding!? It's been more like a Power-Dimensional-Shift
       28% (5 votes)
    11. The sudden gap in Power-Difference from before is so gigantic we need to invent new words for it O_O
       44% (8 votes)

Comments

  • Shiro42Shiro42
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    After playing for several years from G2 to G20, but not able to spend much on rebirthing and such, I was proudly boasting a nice 3000+ total level. Yeah, I know, not amazing, but still. I left for two years and came back to find a newly hatched chick over my head. Yeah... "power-creep" is definitely an understatement.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    You know that is a stupid question right? :D
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
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    edited May 2, 2020
    It's not entirely their fault. A lot of people female-dogged about things and they tried to address their complaints. The combat system was changed by the removal of skill load times in favor of longer cool downs because people found the old combat system too difficult to manage. Indeed, last year I suggested moving mobs themselves up to the present combat system and that got a WHOLE LOT of backlash, so clearly it WAS the right thing to do to change the combat system in the first place. The experience curve was dramatically squashed because people found it too much of a grid to get to lvl 200. When creating new talents and skills, there's only so many ways to inflict damage before skills seem the same as skills under other talents. So, other kinds of combat skills were introduced, many asked for, which in conjunction with existing skills created more effective combat combined tactics. Meanwhile the mobs didn't get any cleverer. Years ago I suggested letting mobs use the full skillset we have and that was also not well received. In some ways Nexon is in a bind as they face a lot of beaver dammed if they do, Hoover Dammed if they don't.
  • YuenSanYuenSan
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    I've tried to beat G21's dopple for about a year now and I still can't. The only progression I got in the boss fight was that once I got to lvl 200, I was finally able to clear out the mob of fake dopples, then attack the dark orbs while trying to poke at the dopple every now and then while maintaining some Soul Links on my pets. The lowest I got the boss was around 95-96% before giving up after dying too many times.
  • Shiro42Shiro42
    Mabinogi Rep: 760
    Posts: 53
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    Helsa wrote: »
    It's not entirely their fault. A lot of people female-dogged about things and they tried to address their complaints. The combat system was changed by the removal of skill load times in favor of longer cool downs because people found the old combat system too difficult to manage. Indeed, last year I suggested moving mobs themselves up to the present combat system and that got a WHOLE LOT of backlash, so clearly it WAS the right thing to do to change the combat system in the first place. The experience curve was dramatically squashed because people found it too much of a grid to get to lvl 200. When creating new talents and skills, there's only so many ways to inflict damage before skills seem the same as skills under other talents. So, other kinds of combat skills were introduced, many asked for, which in conjunction with existing skills created more effective combat combined tactics. Meanwhile the mobs didn't get any cleverer. Years ago I suggested letting mobs use the full skillset we have and that was also not well received. In some ways Nexon is in a bind as they face a lot of beaver dammed if they do, Hoover Dammed if they don't.

    I am trying very hard not to go on a rant about the battle system, but I'll just say that it is 100% Nexon's fault. People complain about all sorts of things. People complained that they couldn't use smash while holding a bow, people complained that Baol was too hard. Those haven't changed, and probably never will. People have also been complaining FOREVER that mana shield, evade, and meditation are still capped. Will that change? Probably eventually, but they haven't yet, and we have no idea why. Nexon ultimately makes the decisions on what happens to the game. They decide which complaints and suggestions to act on, and which ones they're going to ignore. They are supposed to have a vision for what they want the game to be. And apparently they want us to be so powerful that all the previous content is laughably easy.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
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    The fan base does share some of the blame. This is a case of "be careful what you wish for". Saying that Nexon can just choose not to listen to them, therefore it's all their fault is problematic because then it'd be a case of "Nexon doesn't listen to us." People will be upset if the game changes. People will be upset if the game doesn't change. Nexon can't win. Since, we are the folks playing the game all the time, that makes us collectively the experts on it. Listening to what the experts are saying is a good way to know what's going on. Nexon's goal is profit maximization, like all corporations, that doesn't necessarily mean making a game a particular group of peoples vision of what it should be, it's a case of the mob rules, what does the mob want. The mob is not always right.
    GretaWolfsingerRadiant Dawn
  • Shiro42Shiro42
    Mabinogi Rep: 760
    Posts: 53
    Member
    edited May 3, 2020
    Helsa wrote: »
    The fan base does share some of the blame. This is a case of "be careful what you wish for". Saying that Nexon can just choose not to listen to them, therefore it's all their fault is problematic because then it'd be a case of "Nexon doesn't listen to us." People will be upset if the game changes. People will be upset if the game doesn't change. Nexon can't win. Since, we are the folks playing the game all the time, that makes us collectively the experts on it. Listening to what the experts are saying is a good way to know what's going on. Nexon's goal is profit maximization, like all corporations, that doesn't necessarily mean making a game a particular group of peoples vision of what it should be, it's a case of the mob rules, what does the mob want. The mob is not always right.

    It's cute that you think they do listen to our whining and complaining. As you mentioned, Nexon's goal is profit maximization. They don't listen to our ramblings and yelling on the forums, they listen to our wallets. They power-creeped the heck out of us, not because we were complaining we wanted to be stronger, but because new players couldn't get anywhere in the game unless they were light-warped up to the latest generation level strength. No new players means no new wallets for them to pillage. Our complaining had nothing to do with it. Why do you think they put so much effort into merging the servers? Because people are more likely to play if there are more people to play with. More people playing = more money. They do not give a whit about what we're saying on these forums; they care about how they're going to squeeze the next dollar out of us. And while I understand that, I also find it to be incredibly short-sighted.

    EDIT: Just wanted to say I actually think the server merge was one of the good decisions they made, but the underlying intention is still there. And that really gets to the problem with this approach: it results in both good and bad changes as far as gameplay is concerned, without much distinction. It's unconcerned with what will make the game better.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
    Posts: 5,768
    Member
    Of course they listen to us here, they've said as much and why else are they paying for these forums. Since your first sentence was patronizing to me, I think it's best we just agree to disagree.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Posts: 761
    Member
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.

    Do you know why we have so many mana-tunnels leading us to just about everywhere we want to go now ?
    They ended up putting it all of those extra mana-tunnels/moon-gates literally on the following maintenance or two after I posted a screen-shot of my inventory being full of Housing Coupons (back when they didn't expire) and a key-legend as to where each coupon was for (spoiler for at least the legend/key).
    qMRhm3c.png
    Sorry, I don't seem to be able to find the screenie of the actual in-game screen-shot, with all of the actual housing coupons, but maybe I will stumble across it one day and actually remember to edit/update/addendum it here if ever that time arrives...
    Also, the Repeat-Playing of Music-Instrument was literally implemented literally the following maintenance after I had once posted about how playing music to rank it up was rather time-consuming to the point where I went about looking for an auto-clicker/office-macro to just press one button in one spot, but of course auto-clickers/office-macros don't really work on the GUI, although looking for one that worked became unnecessary the following maintenance anyway.

    Also, that Alarm-Clock that we have in-game, that lets us set up to five different alarms ? That one was also implemented literally the next following maintenance after I had made a post in Town-Square (old-version-forums) about the Banshee-Screamer Alarm and how it is a useful tool to help remind/schedule yourself not to miss out on specific events (such as the Royal-Banquet).

    I also historically often posted about «Karma» and maybe it's just some sort of coincidence but, for some reason, they decided to eventually come up with and release what we now know as Karma Coin Cards (avoiding the KKK acronym of course in not using Koin or Kards for the remainder).

    Not only that, recently, according to a Feedback/Suggestion-Post made by Eralea, Home-Stead Objects now have size-reductions.

    Oh, yes, and you know that «Reduce Graphics-Settings» option that pops up when there are too many players on your screen, such as when you're at Black-Dragon raids...? That, too, was apparently implemented after I had sent in feedback/tickets about what I noticed about the frequent-crashing that historically affected everybody at random and so I described my observations and made metaphorical-references to how the crashing of the game-client seemed to behave almost exactly like some sort of FlashPlayer web-page (anybody who has ever used Flash-Intensive web-pages/web-sites should have an idea of what happens if it's been running for too long and resulting in those page-crashing/client-crashing memory-leaks). They don't really exist in my ticket-history now but that's probably because of some Mandela-Effect that erased such history from ever having happened. I don't care and I don't mind though... I don't need to «take credit» for everything or even anything, but, they still remain as part of my memories (and maybe a handfuls of other people).

    For as long as you can come up with a «compelling case» to support your reasoning/logic they will definitely take it into consideration.
    Shiro42 wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    The fan base does share some of the blame. This is a case of "be careful what you wish for". Saying that Nexon can just choose not to listen to them, therefore it's all their fault is problematic because then it'd be a case of "Nexon doesn't listen to us." People will be upset if the game changes. People will be upset if the game doesn't change. Nexon can't win. Since, we are the folks playing the game all the time, that makes us collectively the experts on it. Listening to what the experts are saying is a good way to know what's going on. Nexon's goal is profit maximization, like all corporations, that doesn't necessarily mean making a game a particular group of peoples vision of what it should be, it's a case of the mob rules, what does the mob want. The mob is not always right.
    It's cute that you think they do listen to our whining and complaining. As you mentioned, Nexon's goal is profit maximization. They don't listen to our ramblings and yelling on the forums, they listen to our wallets. They power-creeped the heck out of us, not because we were complaining we wanted to be stronger, but because new players couldn't get anywhere in the game unless they were light-warped up to the latest generation level strength. No new players means no new wallets for them to pillage. Our complaining had nothing to do with it. Why do you think they put so much effort into merging the servers? Because people are more likely to play if there are more people to play with. More people playing = more money. They do not give a whit about what we're saying on these forums; they care about how they're going to squeeze the next dollar out of us. And while I understand that, I also find it to be incredibly short-sighted.

    EDIT: Just wanted to say I actually think the server merge was one of the good decisions they made, but the underlying intention is still there. And that really gets to the problem with this approach: it results in both good and bad changes as far as gameplay is concerned, without much distinction. It's unconcerned with what will make the game better.
  • GretaGreta
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    Nexon does actually take suggestions from players, but sometimes they slightly change it to their liking. They especially like to put them in gachas.
    Wolfsinger
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
    Posts: 5,768
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Nexon does actually take suggestions from players, but sometimes they slightly change it to their liking. They especially like to put them in gachas.

    Get own da buzz.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 65,165
    Posts: 9,172
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Nexon does actually take suggestions from players, but sometimes they slightly change it to their liking. They especially like to put them in gachas.

    It's been a while imo. 9dnGeIh.png
  • YuenSanYuenSan
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
    Posts: 23
    Member
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.
    Too bad stuff that's posted on the Steam forums and the Mabi subreddit doesn't count.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 65,165
    Posts: 9,172
    Member
    edited May 3, 2020
    YuenSan wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.
    Too bad stuff that's posted on the Steam forums and the Mabi subreddit doesn't count.

    Pfft no one pays attention to that anymore. They pay some attention to these forums and the rest is primarily in discord.
  • YuenSanYuenSan
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
    Posts: 23
    Member
    Crims wrote: »
    YuenSan wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.
    Too bad stuff that's posted on the Steam forums and the Mabi subreddit doesn't count.

    Pfft no one pays attention to that anymore. They pay some attention to these forums and the rest is primarily in discord.

    I see people post on the subreddit all the time.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
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    YuenSan wrote: »
    Crims wrote: »
    YuenSan wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.
    Too bad stuff that's posted on the Steam forums and the Mabi subreddit doesn't count.

    Pfft no one pays attention to that anymore. They pay some attention to these forums and the rest is primarily in discord.

    I see people post on the subreddit all the time.

    Well you don't know where they get their feedback from, they don't tell us do they?
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
    Posts: 5,768
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    edited May 5, 2020
    YuenSan wrote: »
    Crims wrote: »
    YuenSan wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, believe it or not, what is posted on the forums does have an influence on the game's direction.
    Too bad stuff that's posted on the Steam forums and the Mabi subreddit doesn't count.

    Pfft no one pays attention to that anymore. They pay some attention to these forums and the rest is primarily in discord.

    I see people post on the subreddit all the time.

    Well you don't know where they get their feedback from, they don't tell us do they?

    The first question is: ARE they getting feedback from us? They have said as much, and we do see implementation of ideas that began from the player base, for example dark hair/skin for elves. The second thing to consider then is: where are they getting it from. The simple and glib answer would be: anywhere they can and care to. There are several platforms available to them, some of which they are paying for. It would seem likely that the ones they are paying for would get some degree of attention from them.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,425
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    edited May 5, 2020
    I will say this.

    Revenant/Pegasus Knuckles are much worst than most reforges. Today, reforges are side additions/quality of life buffs.

    With the knuckles? It seems a tad bit wrong to hide "buffs" to an underpowered skill set behind an incredible grindwall that are needed to make the skillset actually competitive. It's a goddamn bandaid with how they implemented it. "Oh, we might fighter viable now, but you will have to earn it by defeating the most difficult content in the game thus far".

    What the f*ck Nexon?

    Is this a single player game, where we get an OP weapon for defeating the game on the highest difficulty?

    I like using Fighter, but it's not good where it is. That, and I like using Merlin Knuckles to pull off some pretty impressive feats.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
    Posts: 7,909
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    I will say this.

    Revenant/Pegasus Knuckles are much worst than most reforges. Today, reforges are side additions/quality of life buffs.

    With the knuckles? It seems a tad bit wrong to hide "buffs" to an underpowered skill set behind an incredible grindwall that are needed to make the skillset actually competitive. It's a goddamn bandaid with how they implemented it. "Oh, we might fighter viable now, but you will have to earn it by defeating the most difficult content in the game thus far".

    What the f*ck Nexon?

    Is this a single player game, where we get an OP weapon for defeating the game on the highest difficulty?

    I like using Fighter, but it's not good where it is. That, and I like using Merlin Knuckles to pull off some pretty impressive feats.

    Eventually all social games become single player games.
    Blissfulkill
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,380
    Posts: 5,768
    Member
    I will say this.

    Revenant/Pegasus Knuckles are much worst than most reforges. Today, reforges are side additions/quality of life buffs.

    With the knuckles? It seems a tad bit wrong to hide "buffs" to an underpowered skill set behind an incredible grindwall that are needed to make the skillset actually competitive. It's a goddamn bandaid with how they implemented it. "Oh, we might fighter viable now, but you will have to earn it by defeating the most difficult content in the game thus far".

    What the f*ck Nexon?

    Is this a single player game, where we get an OP weapon for defeating the game on the highest difficulty?

    I like using Fighter, but it's not good where it is. That, and I like using Merlin Knuckles to pull off some pretty impressive feats.

    Eventually all social games become single player games.

    Because at some point there's only one person left in the world?