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Spirit Dual Gun's Spirit Control needs a tweak

NerezzaNerezza
Mabinogi Rep: 685
Posts: 22
Member
edited May 6, 2020 in Feedback and Suggestions
Outdated post:
Every weapon's Spirit Control enhancement adds damage that scales off a % of a certain stat. Generally each weapon uses a different stat, Dual Guns uses Luck.

At max rank Dual Gun's Spirit Control enhancement increases damage by 2% of Luck, up to 15 points of damage. This would require 750 Luck to achieve, and since Luck is by far the hardest stat to build up I did some poking around the wiki and it would seem that all the methods to reach the 750 Luck needed to maximize the damage bonus from DG's Spirit Control would cost the player enough Str and Int to result in a net loss of damage for dual guns.

Honestly I don't have hard math to show to back up this claim, however I also want to point out that every other type of spirit weapon can achieve the damage cap on its Spirit Control enhancement by leveling up with just about any combination of Talent/Age while a Spirit Dual Guns user would likely need to level up under the Mercantile talent at age 10 or 11 to have enough Luck to maximize the damage boost from their Spirit Control enhancement. This would be at the cost of Str/Int though, as mentioned above.

Basically the % of luck used to increase damage output for Dual Gun's Spirit Control enhancement needs to be increase from 2%. At 3% of Luck (requiring only 500 Luck to hit the damage cap, as opposed to 750 Luck) it would pretty much be just as difficult (or easy if you're a glass-half-full type of person) to reach the damage bonus cap as it is to reach the one for the Chain Blade Spirit Control enhancement, so changing it to scale to 3% of Luck is probably the solution here.

Important Edit: My apologies, I failed to notice that the scaling happens off of base Luck until just a moment ago. My suggestion for 3% does not take this into account, I would need to spend a few hours determining a proper % to match the base luck possible in the game and it's late enough that I'll have to do this tomorrow. I'll also review Chain Blades due to Will being a somewhat limited stat, too.

However, this does mean that you literally cannot reach the required 750 base luck for the Dual Gun's Spirit Control enhancement as you can only go up to 400-ish base Luck. Ranks 4 and 5 of this enhancement seem to be literally a waste of ego points right now as, so far as I can tell, the maximum base Luck possible right now means you reach the maximum damage bonus from the enhancement at Rank 3
Updated post:
Alright, today's a new day so I went ahead and re-did my bit of research into spirit weapon stat-percentage-based damage scaling to account for the fact that they all scale off of base stat level instead of enhanced stat levels. Every spirit weapon can achieve enough scaling off its relevant stat for their Spirit Control enhancement up to rank 5 except Dual Guns, which can only reach the damage cap at Spirit Control rank 3 unless you have Mercantile talent and do your leveling at ages 10 or 11, and even then you still cannot hit the damage cap at Rank 5. This is the only spirit weapon that requires the owner to level up under a certain talent at a certain age to make use of the maximum spirit control rank, and the only one that cannot hit its Rank 5 damage cap.

I'm certain that whoever set the %s used to scale the damage for Spirit Control on every spirit weapon did not realize that Luck is the lowest stat in the game, and that leveling only grants it under a few talents and at young player ages and without those the base luck possible is only about 400. The % of luck used for the bonus damage either needs to be increased to 3% (requires 500 luck to hit cap) if the intention is that players either picks the Mercantile talent or levels up at ages 10 or 11, or 4% (375 required) if the intention is that players can hit the damage cap for the enhancement at Rank 5 without leveling under specific talents or at a young age.

One thing to keep in mind is that leveling at ages 10/11 to achieve enough Luck to maximize the damage bonus from DG's Spirit Control enhancement comes at the cost of losing out on Str/Int, ultimately resulting in a net loss of damage. Some math would be needed to verify it but setting the enhancement to 3% would likely still net a loss of damage due to sacrificing Str/Int to gain enough Luck to maximize the damage bonus from the enhancement.

Comments

  • TimefallTimefall
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,505
    Posts: 146
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    Spirit Guns just need a compete re-do. All of their abilities range from mediocre to terrible. Their unique abilities are completely useless. (Skipping a reload every 3 minutes, a small unreliable chance to reset Shooting Rush's Cooldown, when it's only a few seconds anyway, and a very small chance to slightly increase the range for a few seconds). They may take extra advantage of the critical damage thanks to way of the gun, but the bonus flat damage they get is much smaller than many other weapons.

    Personally, I think it would still be balanced for their ultimate unique to reset the cooldown of WotG when WotG ends, along with the other skills (currently it does not). Having infinite WotG may sound a bit overpowered, but when compared to other uniques such as the Staff's Hailstorm buff, and remembering that WotG doesn't guarantee skill criticals, and can't benefit from Bullet stats, it would actually be pretty fair.
  • Shiro42Shiro42
    Mabinogi Rep: 760
    Posts: 53
    Member
    edited May 7, 2020
    Timefall wrote: »
    Spirit Guns just need a compete re-do. All of their abilities range from mediocre to terrible. Their unique abilities are completely useless. (Skipping a reload every 3 minutes, a small unreliable chance to reset Shooting Rush's Cooldown, when it's only a few seconds anyway, and a very small chance to slightly increase the range for a few seconds). They may take extra advantage of the critical damage thanks to way of the gun, but the bonus flat damage they get is much smaller than many other weapons.

    Personally, I think it would still be balanced for their ultimate unique to reset the cooldown of WotG when WotG ends, along with the other skills (currently it does not). Having infinite WotG may sound a bit overpowered, but when compared to other uniques such as the Staff's Hailstorm buff, and remembering that WotG doesn't guarantee skill criticals, and can't benefit from Bullet stats, it would actually be pretty fair.

    At that point it may as well just be "WotG always active" though. I was thinking something more along the lines of "instant reloads" or something? The current one is definitely pointless in any case. Spirit guns need some reworking.

    As to the original post, yeah I noticed that too as soon as I read that it's based on the luck stat. Someone at Nexon didn't bother doing math again it seems.
  • KensonKenson
    Mabinogi Rep: 925
    Posts: 11
    Member
    edited May 7, 2020
    I would like to add, despite how it is worded, the gun unique ult makes it so you never have to use manual reloads on top of a skill reset on the end of wotg. When ammo hits 0, it fills up again using whatever ammo you have. It will also reload when you trigger a skill that requires more ammo than you currently have. It only creates a small issue where when you have low ammo and want to use bullet storm you can only hit a target count based on your current bullet count.

    The "strat" I think devcat is looking for gunners to use in mid to end level spirit guns is to have rush cooldown reset and dg ult, use wotg/norma/skills to farm rush resets and just dunk on rush. This ultimately gets easier when you add in crit uncap ult. It's not terribly interesting and is sort of clunky.
    Shiro42
  • Shiro42Shiro42
    Mabinogi Rep: 760
    Posts: 53
    Member
    edited May 7, 2020
    Ah, well that's significantly more helpful than I thought then. A less ambiguous wording would be helpful in its description methinks. Two sentences, for two separate effects, Nexon.

    They still need to learn to math.
  • KensonKenson
    Mabinogi Rep: 925
    Posts: 11
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    Unfortunately devcat consider reforging a base mechanic when figuring these sorts of damage things out, I think. They severely kneecap guns in most updates for two key reasons I think, gun normals always do 200% damage as well as dual gun max damage being the strongest swing of damage for physical base damage in reforging. You can throw in wotg attack speed as well. Its an interesting loophole if true. I don't think the luck scaling is a problem. IIRC in test it was dex instead, not sure why it changed. I've leaned as far in to guns as any totally free player can, I can push to where every shot hits for 7k, so 14k per attack. Great DPS if lag didn't exist

    The weapons themselves are a struggle, barring enchants, divine guns can just be weaker than dowra SE... they just generally have low and tight damage ranges so tiny little bits go long ways. Why would it be like this? If it wasn't then I think we would be worried about drastic changes in devcat

    Bonus fact, dg normals cannot trigger reaper.
  • HazurahHazurah
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,370
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited May 8, 2020
    can i suggest adding aim speed buff or inaccuracy reduction in spirit bow weapon while we are at it?

    I mean, whose idea is this to add magnum splash range?
    Kalulah
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,920
    Posts: 8,688
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    edited May 8, 2020
    Guns in general need a revamp.
    HelsaSherriHabimaruKalulah
  • SqueeSquee
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,565
    Posts: 201
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    Crims wrote: »
    Guns in general need a revamp.

    This. So much this.

    Guns were terrible when they came out, and there's STILL that stupid glitch where Shooting Rush will sometimes turn you the wrong way. The ONLY time I find guns useful is for their faster shooting than some other weapons, but overall, the skills just suck, the hit boxes and distances don't work right, it just needs to be redone completely.
  • Shiro42Shiro42
    Mabinogi Rep: 760
    Posts: 53
    Member
    Squee wrote: »
    Crims wrote: »
    Guns in general need a revamp.

    This. So much this.

    Guns were terrible when they came out, and there's STILL that stupid glitch where Shooting Rush will sometimes turn you the wrong way. The ONLY time I find guns useful is for their faster shooting than some other weapons, but overall, the skills just suck, the hit boxes and distances don't work right, it just needs to be redone completely.

    It seems like such a simple fix too, doesn't it? I mean, we've already got plenty of directional skills that work perfectly fine most of the time. Just give shooting rush the same spinnable mechanic that Lightning Rod, Climactic Crash, Focused Fist, etc. have, minus the charging up part. I mean, really.
  • 아이씨아이씨
    Mabinogi Rep: 375
    Posts: 22
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    Just don't use guns.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 20,810
    Posts: 4,521
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    Yeah, I was disappointed with guns. I got all the skills up to rank one and then when that event gave us a talent rest capsule, I got about 1500 AP, or so, back.
  • KensonKenson
    Mabinogi Rep: 925
    Posts: 11
    Member
    Shiro42 wrote: »


    It seems like such a simple fix too, doesn't it? I mean, we've already got plenty of directional skills that work perfectly fine most of the time. Just give shooting rush the same spinnable mechanic that Lightning Rod, Climactic Crash, Focused Fist, etc. have, minus the charging up part. I mean, really.

    Unfortunately this issue seems to be either tied frame rate or network lag. All ground target aoe can fire the wrong direction. I've never got the game to run well on any machine so it drops frames like crazy and I have no control over my network stability. Spinning slasher included. The ones like sweep, smoke, etc seem to work the best. Unless these skills were fixed in some inherit way there's not much to be done about that.

    If guns could tag an enemy and just do automatic ambient damage instead of having to do manual normals it'd probably be more than usable. You're expected to always be shooting anyway.