Check out the patch notes for the October 15th update: https://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/23838/
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Commerce System

Nightsky7Nightsky7
Mabinogi Rep: 680
Posts: 12
Member
edited June 22 in Feedback and Suggestions
Please fix the commerce system!

It takes too much time to make any ducats. Every time the prices reset, people drive the prices so low that people who are just starting with commerce can barely make any profit at all. For example, if I went to Dunbarton I wouldn't be able to buy the higher level items because I can barely make a profit even with the items initially available. Sometimes I can't even make 1000 ducats in single trip.
For people who have done some commerce, they can't rely on the higher level goods because the prices on those drop even faster. Those get so low that it is impossible to make any profit on those items without anything that increases profits like the letters of guarantee and commerce mastery. Without high enough profits, training commerce mastery is impossible without the use of skill training seals and ap training leading to lower profits and a bigger waste of time.
I can't farm bandits while holding trade goods because the item prices are so low that it would not be worth my time spending the entire real life day killing enough bandits to make a profit off of badges. This is especially true for those who don't even have the merchant levels to get the epensive goods or for those without enough power to kill tougher bandits.
The bounty board is a poor alternative to commercing. Bandits spawn when people travel through areas while holding trade goods. The previously stated points mean that many people will be driven away from commercing whether they actually were interested in commercing or not. This means that in order to take advantage of the bounty board, the people who want to use it must do commercing at least once to get the bandits to spawn. Also, in order to make a decent amount of ducats without the use of bounty hunter cards there must be a real person who lost a good chunk of ducats to the bandits. This is assuming that the person doing the bounty hunting actually finds the hideout with the boss in it. All of these issues combined make bounty hunting just as time conuming and unprofitable as commercing itself.
The other alternatives to commercing are killing certain monsters for items that can be sold for ducats and the wishing tree. Killing monsters is not really profitable either. I have tried this before but even while spending a few hours killing monsters I have only gotten a few. These items are difficult to obtain for weaker players and I have yet to see prices that were worth the time and strength required to obtain them.
The wishing tree is terrible. Sure, throw money at it to maybe get something in return the next day. I don't even get to know if I got the ducats at the very moment I throw money at it and I definitely am not going to pay attention or remember the next day. The most I could even get out of this is 10,000. If the commercing prices were decent, I could make that much within a few trips with mid level goods.
I would really like to do some commercing but almost no one can make a profit. Therefore, almost no one wants to do it. No one is bounty hunting without bounty hunter cards. Commercing and its alternatives are a huge waste of time in its current state with rewards too insignificant for people to enjoy it.

Potential Solutions
Make trade goods less based or not based at all on player trade activity
Set a minimum price that goods cannot drop below where players can still make a profit without the aid of the commercing skill or letters of guarantee on all items
Make items bought with ducats cheaper
Make trade goods worth more
Make commercing more like a stock market where players can buy low and sell high
Make bandits spawn on their own for bounty hunting players
Have random bandit bosses appear with random high ducat bounties at set time intervals to encourage players to bounty hunt when they don't feel like commercing
Make farmed trade goods worth more
Make farmed trade goods drop more often
Make the tree an actual currency converter that doesn't just eat gold sometimes and can be used anytime as often as people want and gives the ducats immediately

Thank you for reading!
CMKyriosNegumikoKensamaofmariSherriAtheist42Crimsọn

Comments

  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 46,045
    Posts: 6,831
    Member
    I'm now wondering how commerce looks like in KR...
  • NegumikoNegumiko
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,755
    Posts: 940
    Member
    we also need new commerce trade routes. part of the reason I rarely do commerce anymore is cause the same old trade routes are super boring after you have done them all a hundred times. revive commerce by giving us new trade routes in Iria and a few new bandits to bounty hunt with Filia style or Vales style bandit homesteads. maybe bring back the Naco commerce event at some point and add a bandit doll bag that can pick up bandit badges cause picking them up yourself is just a waste of time when you are trying to commerce to the next town quickly. adding the pet home blueprints to the commerce shop just felt like a lazy attempt to get us to start doing commerce again but without something new to get players interested it is not going to be very popular, players on the forums already don't like it. now is another perfect opportunity for mabi KR to take good look at the commerce system and improve it. every time they add a little thing to commerce like the Naco commerce event, the new drums instrument, and these blueprints for pet houses it is all just small things that barely sparks any life into commerce and then it usually goes back to being dead a month or two later.
  • YangKoeteYangKoete
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,155
    Posts: 266
    Member
    It'd be really nice to have Iria's commerce, but the amount of travel time between the sparse villages, settlements and towns...There'd probably ones for Vales and the Hillwen mines, for example, but that'd be cheap like Dunbarton and Cobh.

    Probably could make some little merchant camps for an Iria trading update. Make more things for Ducats to be used for. Could get some specialty Homestead items, more merchant clothes (At least add a hat, shoes and gloves to the main uniform.) and some neat things to do, like timed raids on the merchant camps?
  • NegumikoNegumiko
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,755
    Posts: 940
    Member
    YangKoete wrote: »
    It'd be really nice to have Iria's commerce, but the amount of travel time between the sparse villages, settlements and towns...There'd probably ones for Vales and the Hillwen mines, for example, but that'd be cheap like Dunbarton and Cobh.

    Probably could make some little merchant camps for an Iria trading update. Make more things for Ducats to be used for. Could get some specialty Homestead items, more merchant clothes (At least add a hat, shoes and gloves to the main uniform.) and some neat things to do, like timed raids on the merchant camps?

    there are more places in Iria then just the towns that could use trading posts for resources. for example a trading post could start at Qilla and you could go to a trading post near the Exploration Agents in the Muyu Desert close to the Kaypi Canyon, from there to the giants in the Karu Forest, from there to one at the end of the Nares Plateau just before the Longa Desert, then another at the Oasis, and finally Filia. Iria has npc characters all over the place that could use supplies from a trading post system, these distances are not super long although some are slightly longer then some of the Uladh trading routes. however Iria has a lot more open space and less tight spaces and pathways which would make it easier to avoid bandit encounters and save time making up for slightly longer routes. it would take careful planning but as long as all the trading post spots are well thought out I think it would work just fine.
  • GhostUN7GhostUN7
    Mabinogi Rep: 595
    Posts: 27
    Member
    Another issue I haven't seen brought up, is the possibility of bots taking advantage of the system, this causes demand to change constantly on a extreme level. If prices were to remain fixed, that alone would help alot.

    Also the lower value items actually haul in more of a profit as they tend to be items you can carry a higher quantity, so why take the risk of having some expensive gear to be stolen when the rewards are basically the same.

    Like for example, I was about to do a run, and this one item that was next level had a profit gain of 12, yet the previous item had a profit gain of 8. However the capacity of the higher ranked item was basically halved. I get that there are elephants in the game but when it comes to commerce in this game, its all about speed.

    alot of items in commerce isn't worth getting because the profit margins are not there

    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    There is no real way to prevent bots from abusing the system, and players themselves aren't open to more restrictions and regulations either.
    I'm not sure if people are open towards eliminating gold rewards on trade and making ducat shop items non-tradeable.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,660
    Posts: 626
    Member
    Sure there are, such as how you never see and there haven't been any bots doing high-quality wine-making (...probably!), how-ever, requiring that much attention to randomness would probably annoy the player-base enough to result in a drop in an active population, and we probably don't want to turn the world of Erinn into a ghost-town. And I believe that I made a comment some months ago about using Artificial-Intelligence as a means to deter so-called botting.
    There is no real way to prevent bots from abusing the system
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    Habimaru wrote: »
    Sure there are, such as how you never see and there haven't been any bots doing high-quality wine-making (...probably!), how-ever, requiring that much attention to randomness would probably annoy the player-base enough to result in a drop in an active population, and we probably don't want to turn the world of Erinn into a ghost-town. And I believe that I made a comment some months ago about using Artificial-Intelligence as a means to deter so-called botting.
    There is no real way to prevent bots from abusing the system

    I don't think we'll see the AI improve too much in Mabi, otherwise they might haven taken and implemented a lot of the suggestions on the forums already.
  • GhostUN7GhostUN7
    Mabinogi Rep: 595
    Posts: 27
    Member
    edited July 17
    There is no real way to prevent bots from abusing the system, and players themselves aren't open to more restrictions and regulations either.
    I'm not sure if people are open towards eliminating gold rewards on trade and making ducat shop items non-tradeable.

    Only real way to do that is to have the game on a sub fee to play, and that isn't going to happen, and if it does, Mabi would need to get rid of its gacha system and various other pay to play stuff like Nao stones. Anyhow, back on topic.

    Another way to deal with the issue, is to ignore the bots, and make gold and or ducats readily available, sure this MAY cause inflation, but look at the market right now, can't really get any worse than it is... Most of which was caused by bots and Gacha...

    Just have commerce profitable again, its sad that I have looked at high value items and see that it is in the negative so far, that it isn't even worth to trade anymore, like blue across the board for certain items.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    GhostUN7 wrote: »
    There is no real way to prevent bots from abusing the system, and players themselves aren't open to more restrictions and regulations either.
    I'm not sure if people are open towards eliminating gold rewards on trade and making ducat shop items non-tradeable.

    Only real way to do that is to have the game on a sub fee to play, and that isn't going to happen, and if it does, Mabi would need to get rid of its gacha system and various other pay to play stuff like Nao stones. Anyhow, back on topic.

    Another way to deal with the issue, is to ignore the bots, and make gold and or ducats readily available, sure this MAY cause inflation, but look at the market right now, can't really get any worse than it is... Most of which was caused by bots and Gacha...

    Just have commerce profitable again, its sad that I have looked at high value items and see that it is in the negative so far, that it isn't even worth to trade anymore, like blue across the board for certain items.

    It was like that early on, before commerce was added. Personal shops were premium service and there was a lot less trade volume between players. At some point, when every service went free and commerce was added, we saw a huge spike in bots farming for gold and we got the never ending gold bot seller.
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 17,535
    Posts: 2,620
    Member
    they should encourage party play too, it's boring to commerce alone..
    depending on party size you (party leader) can grab a specific type of wagon that fits much more goods and evenly distributes earned ducats between party members
    players can relax, play music (instruments like flutes, mandolins) and just chat
    there could be a pathfinding update too so the party leader can set it to 'auto pilot' and chat too (obviously can stop it to swerve out of the way of bandits when needed)

    we even had a crossover a while ago with an anime that had AMAZING er.. merchantry..? commercing? (season 2 is coming out rn :eyes:)
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    edited July 20
    Sherri wrote: »
    they should encourage party play too, it's boring to commerce alone..
    depending on party size you (party leader) can grab a specific type of wagon that fits much more goods and evenly distributes earned ducats between party members
    players can relax, play music (instruments like flutes, mandolins) and just chat
    there could be a pathfinding update too so the party leader can set it to 'auto pilot' and chat too (obviously can stop it to swerve out of the way of bandits when needed)

    we even had a crossover a while ago with an anime that had AMAZING er.. merchantry..? commercing? (season 2 is coming out rn :eyes:)

    There should be bonuses for a party of caravan once the journey is complete and add various challenges on the journey. I'd say it would work well if commerce expanded to Iria.

    Add more commerce quests and a commerce mission board like SMs.
    Sherri
  • Atheist42Atheist42
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,115
    Posts: 60
    Member
    One of the messages the trading imp sometimes throws up when doing commerce is something like: "If you're struggling to fight off bandits, travel in groups." Unfortunately, if you commerce in groups, the last one to sell off can lose big time if the prices happen to change before they complete. So, yes - the current method of determining prices based on recent trades is problematic. There needs to be more lag built in so everyone in the group can be sure to get a fair price.

    I can see the appeal of making prices vary based on something real that happens in game, but currently they just seem way too sensitive. Like Alchemy Crystals can jump from over 200 to negative in one hit. The changes need to be smaller overall.

    It wouldn't be so bad if you could always see live prices and you could adjust your route appropriately. It is so irritating when you spend 5 minutes getting to your destination only to find you should have sold at an intermediate town. Think about it. All the commerce imps IMMEDIATELY know the new price at every other town as soon as it happens. They must have some means of communication like a mobile phone hidden in their pocket. Well I want one of those phones so that I can too always know the current prices.

    However, speaking as a player from one of the far-flung time zones, it is nice to have one aspect of the game that favours us. I may never be able to master Urgent Shot, because the ping time to server is so big that I have NEVER scored a success for "Use the skill immediately after missing". But if I commerce in the evening my time, when the server is dead, the commerce prices are relatively stable.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    Atheist42 wrote: »
    One of the messages the trading imp sometimes throws up when doing commerce is something like: "If you're struggling to fight off bandits, travel in groups." Unfortunately, if you commerce in groups, the last one to sell off can lose big time if the prices happen to change before they complete. So, yes - the current method of determining prices based on recent trades is problematic. There needs to be more lag built in so everyone in the group can be sure to get a fair price.

    I can see the appeal of making prices vary based on something real that happens in game, but currently they just seem way too sensitive. Like Alchemy Crystals can jump from over 200 to negative in one hit. The changes need to be smaller overall.

    It wouldn't be so bad if you could always see live prices and you could adjust your route appropriately. It is so irritating when you spend 5 minutes getting to your destination only to find you should have sold at an intermediate town. Think about it. All the commerce imps IMMEDIATELY know the new price at every other town as soon as it happens. They must have some means of communication like a mobile phone hidden in their pocket. Well I want one of those phones so that I can too always know the current prices.

    However, speaking as a player from one of the far-flung time zones, it is nice to have one aspect of the game that favours us. I may never be able to master Urgent Shot, because the ping time to server is so big that I have NEVER scored a success for "Use the skill immediately after missing". But if I commerce in the evening my time, when the server is dead, the commerce prices are relatively stable.

    Well, what if for group trade, the sale price is determined after the entire group delivers their goods to that destination? Give an option to sell together (maybe to party leader) After the trade is done, the money is divided through the party based on everyone's carried goods.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 15,730
    Posts: 3,466
    Member
    edited August 10
    Groups can just agree to all sell at the same moment in order to avoid the price issue. If someone cheats, it's the same as dungeoning with a kill hog, you just don't go with them any more. The other problem with commercing in groups is even if everyone gets the good price, since so much more is moved the prices drop faster making less number of profitable runs left.

    This is why I always commerced alone, even when I was weak. Eventually you do get strong enough to deal with any number and any kind of bandit ambushes. Think of commercing in a group as a temporary thing.

    The fix I would make is having prices fall slower and recover faster.
  • GhostUN7GhostUN7
    Mabinogi Rep: 595
    Posts: 27
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Groups can just agree to all sell at the same moment in order to avoid the price issue. If someone cheats, it's the same as dungeoning with a kill hog, you just don't go with them any more. The other problem with commercing in groups is even if everyone gets the good price, since so much more is moved the prices drop faster making less number of profitable runs left.

    This is why I always commerced alone, even when I was weak. Eventually you do get strong enough to deal with any number and any kind of bandit ambushes. Think of commercing in a group as a temporary thing.

    The fix I would make is having prices fall slower and recover faster.

    Isn't that the problem that were trying to address though? I mean we shouldn't have to compromise because someone else has found a exploit, or broken the system in some way, shape or form. The only real way to fix this is to remove dynamic prices and just have fixed base prices and go from there. Now we have this whole pet thing that relies on the system, it is even MORE apparent that it is... broken.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    GhostUN7 wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Groups can just agree to all sell at the same moment in order to avoid the price issue. If someone cheats, it's the same as dungeoning with a kill hog, you just don't go with them any more. The other problem with commercing in groups is even if everyone gets the good price, since so much more is moved the prices drop faster making less number of profitable runs left.

    This is why I always commerced alone, even when I was weak. Eventually you do get strong enough to deal with any number and any kind of bandit ambushes. Think of commercing in a group as a temporary thing.

    The fix I would make is having prices fall slower and recover faster.

    Isn't that the problem that were trying to address though? I mean we shouldn't have to compromise because someone else has found a exploit, or broken the system in some way, shape or form. The only real way to fix this is to remove dynamic prices and just have fixed base prices and go from there. Now we have this whole pet thing that relies on the system, it is even MORE apparent that it is... broken.
    But fixed prices will make it quite boring and not really commerce anymore. It's just deliver and get paid.
    The goal is to get commerce to be more fun and exciting.
  • GhostUN7GhostUN7
    Mabinogi Rep: 595
    Posts: 27
    Member
    But fixed prices will make it quite boring and not really commerce anymore. It's just deliver and get paid.
    The goal is to get commerce to be more fun and exciting.

    I get that and well they attempted and it didn't work out did it now. What we currently have for commerce is by far broken, either increase the rewards, or just stick with the current system and crash n' burn.

    To get the elephant without and boosters or pay too win items/enchants, your average run with average items will fetch you 3 to 4k per run, an Elephant is about 250k, the items in the store are much higher, so doing hundreds if not thousands of runs, that alone is boring, let alone a dull moment which is why this isn't working out at all for most people here.

    Once you get the elephant it gets much easier, but it gets slower, so doing hundreds or thousands of runs for items that you will like to earn, is dull as hell.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,580
    Posts: 7,719
    Member
    GhostUN7 wrote: »
    But fixed prices will make it quite boring and not really commerce anymore. It's just deliver and get paid.
    The goal is to get commerce to be more fun and exciting.

    I get that and well they attempted and it didn't work out did it now. What we currently have for commerce is by far broken, either increase the rewards, or just stick with the current system and crash n' burn.

    To get the elephant without and boosters or pay too win items/enchants, your average run with average items will fetch you 3 to 4k per run, an Elephant is about 250k, the items in the store are much higher, so doing hundreds if not thousands of runs, that alone is boring, let alone a dull moment which is why this isn't working out at all for most people here.

    Once you get the elephant it gets much easier, but it gets slower, so doing hundreds or thousands of runs for items that you will like to earn, is dull as hell.

    The current system is too basic. There needs to be better supply and demand functions that can be seen. They were able to increase trade value of goods with the smuggler and increase danger along routes where the smuggler appears. There should be a better supply and demand system where the prices of goods are affected by this automatic market that also has events that affect price changes.