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Rework Base Damage on Skills (Magic/Alchemy/etc)

OwntrolfOwntrolf
Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
Posts: 123
Member
edited September 19 in General Chat
In the current day and age, there is no purpose for base damage in these skills and only serve to hold it back.
Base damage was extremely good back in the age when we didn't have enough stats to beat out skills with base damage, however that day has already passed a long time ago.

Such an example was when there was no way someone's smash could outdamage a Fireball.

What I would propose is instead of having the standard magic formula to become something like

(MagicAttack * MagicScaling + EnchantDamg * EnchantScaling) * Skill Multiplier * OtherMultipliers
vs
(Base Damage + MagicAttack * MagicScaling + EnchantDamg * EnchantScaling) * OtherMultipliers


By changing to this formula (MagicAttack * MagicScaling + EnchantDamg * EnchantScaling) * Skill Multiplier * OtherMultipliers
value is granted through dans, reforges for skill specific damage.

Changing to this formula would most likely also solve some issues such as Meteor Strike being a complete joke since it should have a gigantic skill multiplier compared to Lightning Rod which currently outdamages Meteor Strike as long as you have over 600magicattack.

Base Damage would be great in a world where everyone has 0 stats because the Base Damage is easily over 90% of the spell damage, however in the current day and age, base damage makes up less than 80-95% of the spell.


An example is Lightning Rod
Dan3 has 155-500 base damage
Scales 7-12MagicAttack

I have 929 Magic attack
7*929 = 6503min
12*929 = 11148max

the "true base damage" is actually 6658-11648 before any charge multipliers or element/combo multipliers
In this case, 500/11648 = 0.0429 which means, the base damage makes up less than 5% of the actual skill damage

I hope KR could one day rework base damage on skills into skill multipliers

edit: ill just plug my magic spreadsheet here if people want a point to reference
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iWOPcnaS4QXJaj-84j7TWS-ZmdPE2XftlUy5wWUn5eM/edit?usp=sharing
  1. Base Damage is good7 votes
    1. Yes
       43% (3 votes)
    2. No
       57% (4 votes)

Comments

  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 61,390
    Posts: 7,925
    Member
    edited September 20
    The damage output is fine and with the right equipment can be downright opaf. They will not adjust it and make it broken because it already is with the right equipment. Don't have the right equipment? Not our problem because that is the whole point of end game content for this game.
    Helsa
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,940
    Posts: 126
    Member
    If something requires reforges and specific equipment, it's bad design on purpose. This is a sandbox, not a minmax generic MMO game.

    The game as a whole has glaring balance issues already. Almost everything needs to be reworked at once rather than patched up and calling it a day, but it's unlikely that devkitty makes the changes needed due to the workload that likely needs.

    That is why we have monsters like the Geata and the Succubus Queen, who have passive defenses, and in the case of the Geata, against specific skills.

    They did rebalance defense and protection a few years back. So honestly, what's a little more power creep on top of the rest of the absurd level endgame players go to? It only makes the skillsets more viable for the midgame players, and smoothens the curve needed to become stronger.

    Game progression is already pretty steep in the midgame, it's honestly not a loss.

    Shakaya
  • Gaby5011Gaby5011
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,440
    Posts: 652
    Member
    Oh I like this. But what are you supposed to put in the crit damage box? I put (in order) crit rank, r6 staff, renown, homestead, ego --> 150+62+9.1+6+15=242.1, so 2.421, but when I look in the max damage crit, the damage is 67k max, versus ~100k crits I usually do. What am I missing?
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 123
    Member
    edited September 20
    Gaby5011 wrote: »
    Oh I like this. But what are you supposed to put in the crit damage box? I put (in order) crit rank, r6 staff, renown, homestead, ego --> 150+62+9.1+6+15=242.1, so 2.421, but when I look in the max damage crit, the damage is 67k max, versus ~100k crits I usually do. What am I missing?

    3.421 because you forgot the normal damage
    100+150+62+9.1+6+15 = 3.412
  • Gaby5011Gaby5011
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,440
    Posts: 652
    Member
    Owntrolf wrote: »
    Gaby5011 wrote: »
    Oh I like this. But what are you supposed to put in the crit damage box? I put (in order) crit rank, r6 staff, renown, homestead, ego --> 150+62+9.1+6+15=242.1, so 2.421, but when I look in the max damage crit, the damage is 67k max, versus ~100k crits I usually do. What am I missing?

    3.421 because you forgot the normal damage
    100+150+62+9.1+6+15 = 3.412

    Kinda what I thought, but I wasn't sure, thanks!
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,635
    Posts: 186
    Member, Volunteer Forum Moderator
    I'd support something like this, as long as certain skills weren't powered crept. A rebalance of this scale allows for better damage scaling as a whole. Some skills like Water Cannon and Flameburst already have great top-end damage values and don't need to be increased. That being said, creating multipliers that leave the top end damage where it is, but improve the scaling for players with less bonuses is what the game needs.
    ShakayaSpeddy54
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,100
    Posts: 278
    Member
    Soll wrote: »
    If something requires reforges and specific equipment, it's bad design on purpose.
    Yeah. Things have been that way for a while now though, and not just magic. Welcome to Mabinogi.
    Owntrolf wrote: »
    An example is Lightning Rod
    Dan3 has 155-500 base damage
    Scales 7-12MagicAttack

    I have 929 Magic attack
    How do you have 929 magic attack? @_@ This probably shows my lack of knowledge when it comes to magic attack, but I have to ask. That's a ton, and I can't easily account for it with my lazy wiki skimming. Well done.

    Anyway, lightning rod seems like a relatively extreme example. It just has really low base damage relative to its Magic Attack Modifier.

    For anyone who's curious, here's the Base Damage/MAM for the other elemental magics (both maximum); the end value is the amount of Magic Attack needed to provide damage equal to the base damage (everything beyond this provides more). The lower the end value, the more reliant the spell is on MA for its damage.

    Lightning Rod: 500/12= 41.67
    Hailstorm: 300/3.2= 93.75
    Meteor Strike: 16200/16= 1012.5 (By the way, this doesn't count the burning damage. Meteor strike is the opposite outlier to Lightning Rod)
    Thunder: 481/2.1= 229.05
    Ice Spear: 336/1.4= 240
    Fireball: 2760/12= 230
    Lightningbolt: 180/.6= 300
    Icebolt: 104/.4= 260
    Firebolt: 126/.5= 252

    If you take the average of all of these (minus meteor strike), you get 173.31. Using your MA of 929: 173.31/(929+173.31)= 0.157. Base damage accounts for over 15% of overall damage on average, excluding meteor strike (and shockwave), even with your insane MA. Much more for everyone else. Imagine if I'd left out Lightning Rod like I did Meteor Strike...

    I don't think base damage is a problem; I think it's what makes magic unique. It's like each spell is a different weapon (with much higher damage than most other weapons, by the way), which your INT (among other factors) multiplies the effectiveness of, instead of the other way around (which is the case for all physical damage forms). Not to mention, these skills technically all have multipliers already. Imagine if they decided to implement your idea, but in a cheeky way: getting rid of base damage and giving the skills multipliers with the current maximums as the Dan 3 values, and lower ones for the other ranks. Maybe they'd give everyone an additional free 50 MA out of nowhere to make up for it (but it doesn't really) - Magic Attack Mastery.

    If you want a BFO another multiplier out of nowhere, why not start by separating the elemental masteries, bolt masteries, and other stuff, from Magic Weapon mastery? I always thought it was kinda lame that instead of rebalancing those values to make magic stronger, they just kinda dropped Magic Weapon Mastery in there and let it eat everything. So instead of [Base damage + (MA*MAM)]*[Magic Weapon Mastery+ other stuff]*Charges and stuff; we'd have [Base damage+ (MA*MAM)]*[Elemental Masteries+Bolt Mastery+Other Stuff]*Charges and Magic Weapon Mastery and stuff. Might be kinda OP, but I think it's closer to the ideal magic damage formula than what we have now. It would also provide a boost to mages at all levels of progression.

    Some comparisons:
    Lightning Rod with 929 MA (Current Damage Formula; No Reforges except MA, Rank 1 Lightning Rod and Lightning Mastery, Fully charged)
    11648*[2.5+.15]*3.3=101,861.76
    Lightning Rod with 929 MA (New Damage Formula; No Reforges except MA, All skills Rank1, Fully charged)
    11648*2.5*1.15*3.3=110,510.4

    Lightning Rod with 54 MA (Current Damage Formula; No Reforges, All skills Rank1, Fully charged)
    1148*[2.5+1.15]*3.3=10,039.26
    Lightning Rod with 54 MA (New Damage Formula; No Reforges, All skills Rank 1, Fully charged)
    1148*2.5*1.15*3.4=10,891.65

    About an 8% damage increase on all elemental magic, regardless of MA, without reforges. More potential with reforges.
    Lightning Rod with 929 MA (Current Damage, Lightning Mastery 26 Level Reforge, All skills Rank 1)
    11648*[2.5+.15+.13]*3.3=106,858.75
    Lightning Rod with 929 MA (New Damage, Lightning Mastery 26 Level Reforge, All skills Rank 1)
    11648**2.5*[1+.15+.13]*3.3=123,002.88

    I didn't count the staff elemental thing 'cause I'm not certain it actually applies to new staves.... Does it?

    Alternatively, we could just make BFO affect magic attack. I see that as a lazy solution too. We should actually just delete BFO.
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,715
    Posts: 115
    Member
    edited September 23
    I'd get rid of magic attack entirely, make magic's damage scale with int like any other state and then make it scale with damage enchants. I get trying to make the skillset unique and exclusive to certain builds, but it shouldn't come at the cost of usability with little payoff. You need to run two entire gear sets just to use both magic and any set that relies on generic damage and what you're rewarded with is slightly better clearing abilities than with Chain Sweep or racial skills in addition to your generic damage set you'll be using anyway against the boss. This would also alleviate the fact that the bulk of your MA comes from reforges and gacha accessories.
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 123
    Member
    edited September 23
    94f176135e.png
    My stat page if you wanted to confirm, with my staff etc equipped( lower with wand)


    Staff elemental supposedly only works on bolts and is a fairly outdated feature back when we had to charge Trinity Staves to 3 elemental to even use the specific Int magic.

    In general. I just want magic to have proper scaling, it already makes little to no sense that bolt magic is universally superior compared to any magic.

    Things like BFO throws all balance out of wack because the damage scaling on magic skills are all over the place as well as well as enchants.

    For example if you are using bolts, you will do more damage using a max damg enchanted armor set because for example Firebolt scales 0.35-0.5MA but has 0.2-0.4enchant scaling, because you just have higher enchant damage amount enchants usually +10max or higher, MA enchants cant compete because they're almost all below +5MA each.
    This issue is further amplified by BFO, Physical Power Potions, Fateweaver.

    There are numerous instances of Nexon hating mages.
    -The terrible combo card scaling due to being additive, same with every reforge and sets like Hebona
    -Magic Power Power potions are inferior to Physical Power Potions
    -Apple Cider requires Apples
    -No alternate MA enchants
    -Max damage enchants being better for bolts specifically Firebolt
    -Meditation not uncapped
    -Mana shield not uncapped
    -Wand/Staff awakenings do abysmal damage

    |-Hebona set is effectively about 5% damage gain once you factor in all your skill multipliers which starts at 2.8x rank 1 masteries opposed to the -said "15%"
    |-Magic Power Potion 80MA 10 minute vs Physical Power Potion 20% 30 minute from Premium Service (MA falls behind once you have more than 400MA)
    |-Apple Cider MA food item requires Apples which is not purchasable like Lemons for Highball
    |-There is only about 1 MA enchant for each prefix/suffix for clothes (still no clothes suffix)
    |-Max damage just being better for bolts stated before
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,400
    Posts: 64
    Member
    edited September 24
    Soll wrote: »
    If something requires reforges and specific equipment, it's bad design on purpose.
    I can't think of something that NEEDS reforges, if you're running with a huge party. The reforges make things quicker, simpler, and more efficient.
    You can clear, for example, Rabbie Phantasm -- alone -- without any reforges whatsoever. Tech Duinn is probably a better argument against what I'm saying, but you can still clear it without reforges. Bring 3 more people with high stats, just like yours, and decently enchanted/upgraded stuff like chain blades and have some event pets ready to go (like Milky Way Bone dragon so you can farm bone chips) and you'll be able to clear even elite missions with enough practice. If four of you can individually knock off 25% of a mob's hp with a critical impale (for example), then all four of you critting that same mob would kill it. Teamwork, basically.
    If you're trying to solo stuff, yeah. Reforge.
    This is a sandbox, not a minmax generic MMO game.

    Dude, I think you're looking for Minecraft or something. This isn't a sandbox. Effort and planning and responsibility are a few of many required things to obtain things in this game. There's a reason why very few people own a succubus queen's dress (it's because you have to have the damage and skill needed to run Rabbie Phantasm enough times to find the drop) and why just as few people own a Perseus item.

    (To be fair, the Developers have certainly tried to turn it into one, these days. The constant handouts from events and flurries of free training potions and seals aren't making your case worse or mine any better.)
    The game as a whole has glaring balance issues already. Almost everything needs to be reworked at once rather than patched up and calling it a day, but it's unlikely that devkitty makes the changes needed due to the workload that likely needs.

    You're looking at this like this game is a generic MMo game, despite saying it's not. Not every talent is supposed to be viable in all content. This is a game where you can use everything, regardless of specialty. That means content will be scaled according to this. It doesn't matter if you're "An Alchemist(tm)" or not. You can still use Frozen Blast to freeze mobs you find too annoying to chase down, for example. When people talk about "balance," they're usually under the impression that there is supposed to be equal viability in all content. You'd be right, if this game locked you in classes. It doesn't. So, being more versatile is your option. Find ways to use other talents to assist your focus talent.
    That is why we have monsters like the Geata and the Succubus Queen, who have passive defenses, and in the case of the Geata, against specific skills.
    Adapt. Literally just adapt. Trying to pound a square peg into a round hole is just torturing yourself. On top of that, these passive reduction force people to stop using the same tactic over and over and over. If you can just Final Hit (or, in more recent days, hailstorm) through literally the whole game, what's the point in any other skill? Well, if you think this is a sandbox, you'd be thinking this is how it should be. But, this isn't a sandbox.
    They did rebalance defense and protection a few years back. So honestly, what's a little more power creep on top of the rest of the absurd level endgame players go to? It only makes the skillsets more viable for the midgame players, and smoothens the curve needed to become stronger.
    As someone that started from the bottom and hasn't spent more than $25 on this game to end up at a point where I'm farming my own kraken hearts, let me tell you that it just comes down to effort. Do you want to get stronger or not? That's the only question that matters. Now, personally, I'm looking forward to Perseus gear getting powercrept because I'm interested in seeing how they'll somehow make Perseus Knuckles irrelevant to a particular kind of content.
    Game progression is already pretty steep in the midgame, it's honestly not a loss.
    Literally just raise your stats and rank everything to r1. You'll see how ridiculous the views on "end game" versus "midgame" versus "noob" are when you realize how important it is to actually have decent foundation on the character first before jumping straight into the belly of the beast. We all start at the same exact point when we begin our journey in this game. We get dealt the same hands. There's no other variable other than the decisions you make, the inherent randomness of RNG, and the knowledge you gain. That's it.
    GretaCrimsọnRadiant DawnSherriShinjou
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,100
    Posts: 278
    Member
    I agree with most of what you've said. I'm gonna add my thoughts in bold. Also, deleting everything irrelevant to what I'm saying.
    This is a sandbox, not a minmax generic MMO game.

    Dude, I think you're looking for Minecraft or something. This isn't a sandbox. Effort and planning and responsibility are a few of many required things to obtain things in this game. There's a reason why very few people own a succubus queen's dress (it's because you have to have the damage and skill needed to run Rabbie Phantasm enough times to find the drop) and why just as few people own a Perseus item.

    (To be fair, the Developers have certainly tried to turn it into one, these days. The constant handouts from events and flurries of free training potions and seals aren't making your case worse or mine any better.)

    Some might say that our characters not being locked into classes is a sandboxxy element; so that's where that comes from. Sure, Mabi has sandbox elements, but it's still a MMO RPG, with min/maxing obviously involved. I think there still need to be consistent limits on what we can do. For example, different talents should have their uses and limits on what they can do, even if we can switch between them (actually, all the more because of this), and just because we can use multiple talents at once does not mean that we should be able to use EVERYTHING at once (I'm looking at you extra equipment slots). I swear, I made a joke suggestion thread about something similar once, and they found a way to make it a paid feature.
    The game as a whole has glaring balance issues already. Almost everything needs to be reworked at once rather than patched up and calling it a day, but it's unlikely that devkitty makes the changes needed due to the workload that likely needs.

    You're looking at this like this game is a generic MMo game, despite saying it's not. Not every talent is supposed to be viable in all content. This is a game where you can use everything, regardless of specialty. That means content will be scaled according to this. It doesn't matter if you're "An Alchemist(tm)" or not. You can still use Frozen Blast to freeze mobs you find too annoying to chase down, for example. When people talk about "balance," they're usually under the impression that there is supposed to be equal viability in all content. You'd be right, if this game locked you in classes. It doesn't. So, being more versatile is your option. Find ways to use other talents to assist your focus talent.

    Your wording is vague enough here that I can't quite agree with it. Sure, all talents shouldn't do or excel at the exact same things; then there's hardly any point to having such a variety (although we kinda have that problem right now, tbh). Sure, there's no problem with there being enemies that specifically counter some things we can use.
    That's not to say that different skills and talents shouldn't generally be balanced to have about the same potential, whether in damage or utility (and ideally for similar effort). I think most people would agree that that's not currently the case. A couple of talents have a ton of damage potential and utility by default, while others are hardly even usable compared to them, at least without reforges or erg or endgame equipment. I think things could be better.
    That is why we have monsters like the Geata and the Succubus Queen, who have passive defenses, and in the case of the Geata, against specific skills.
    Adapt. Literally just adapt. Trying to pound a square peg into a round hole is just torturing yourself. On top of that, these passive reduction force people to stop using the same tactic over and over and over. If you can just Final Hit (or, in more recent days, hailstorm) through literally the whole game, what's the point in any other skill? Well, if you think this is a sandbox, you'd be thinking this is how it should be. But, this isn't a sandbox.

    I think you missed his point here. If you look at that mechanic with no context, it seems fine. If you look at it as a symptom of a problem which we do obviously have, it starts to look like a lazy design choice to cover other careless design choices. He wasn't arguing that we should be able to FH our way through everything, he was saying that the fact that a boss has to have unexplained defenses against specific overused skills in a game where this is otherwise not a thing, is a sign that those skills are broken and should have been implemented more carefully.

    Well, that accounts for the part about specific skills, at least. I just re-read that and noticed he may have been talking about other PDs too. On that point, I have to agree with you.
  • DemoncatDemoncat
    Mabinogi Rep: 950
    Posts: 43
    Member
    Uh ya there is no way im believe that 929 MA so no ty
  • DemoncatDemoncat
    Mabinogi Rep: 950
    Posts: 43
    Member
    Uh ya there is no way im believing you have 929 so no ty
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,400
    Posts: 64
    Member
    Demoncat wrote: »
    Uh ya there is no way im believing you have 929 so no ty

    Heh... They even screenshotted their window.
    It's obviously possible; don't go into denial. You just have to invest resources into building yourself up to that level and not just simply stopping at ego-ing a staff and spamming Hailstorm.
    With my own Ego Staff and not being as invested as Yuiko is, I hit over 600 MA. Just need to focus your efforts, do some research, and buy what you need to buy and train your skills, level yourself up to lvl 200 current level, and add some enchants to gain the intelligence (cap it) and MA. There's a mage or two that has over 1000 MA here on Nao. Good luck.
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 123
    Member
    edited October 1
    Demoncat wrote: »
    Uh ya there is no way im believing you have 929 so no ty


    6519fd78bc.png
    61 = 49 + 12 Eerie Spooky Accessory
    59 = 47 + 12 Eerie Spooky Accessory
    201 = 34+18+15+68+50+16 Arcane Foretold Ego Erg 40 Druid Staff
    26 = 9+5+12 Apathetic Genius Languhris Chaser Circlet
    9 = 6+3 Coma Witch Fleet Feet
    7 = 5+2 Mana Hammer Homestead Rosemary Gloves
    4 = 4 Welcome Fortification Lord of the Seas
    95 = 50+45 Meteor Strike Master + Special Voidal Butterfly Titles
    25 = 25 Alban Knights Emblem
    22 = 22 Copper Snowflake Tree Coin
    12 = 12 Ladeca Amulet
    18 = 18 Homestead bonus
    12 = 12 MA3 echostone
    20 = 20 GM mage
    363MA <- 1825 int -10 ignore first 10 int

    Total should be 934MA now without any buffs besides my gear itself
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 123
    Member
    edited October 1
    b5c26f44dd.png
    not my pic but someone else fully buffed
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,755
    Posts: 1,230
    Member
    edited October 2
    Ah yes....Magic damage, quite the luxury to have reached heights by paying blood and limbs for. Alas even with putting yourself through endless unstable flooring hell that can just gave out at any time you test your luck back to square one questioning why your even doing this when other easy options are available.

    Magic had it much rougher starting out a bit, gained efficiency at the middle, and then loss its flow by taking a HUGE dip at the damage charts from the talent damage scaling graph from each content from earlygame to midgame to endgame.

    Each talent had its flow while ruling out the duel stat talents because they were likely meant to be advance talents in midgame besides chainblades since Luck is limited while Dex is it's dominate stat.

    From what I noticed is that Magic damage talents took a hit in the graph I thought up mostly due to the mix in the Midgame content with mobs having questionable amount of MDEF/MPROT but then got hit HARD at endgame with nearly all mobs having 70% MDEF/MPROT with 30% being Physical Def/ Physical PROT at a rough guess.

    This pretty much would make me think Physical Damage is meta, from Final hit, Fighter, Lance, Bows, and other meta players discovered or brought up. It doesn't help that magic deals the least damage to endgame mobs that also have mana reflector as well but thankfully its so few.

    Magic deals GOOD damage no question, and with 1000+ Magic damage your damage would be AMAZING but its dps is not as great compared to some talents while endgame mobs prevent you from burst damaging since physical damage deals higher dps and better burst than magic in the end.

    Increasing Magic damage is pointless what the Devs should do is nerf endgame mob's overall Def/Prot and MDef/MProt ratio as well as reducing some numbers. Magic would always never be as good compared to the other talents at endgame but at least in midgame magic is just a monster talent.

    Even if you buff up your mage vs a physical damage dealer also buffed you'll end up being 60% less effective compared to Physical damage anyways. Your only advantage would be that you can deal AOE damage from afar as well as being tanky with mana shield. With a erg lvl 50 spirit weapon you can go nuts with AOE once you get your casting speed gear only to still fall off in dps because of Ninja nerf of mobs having resistance to named skills.

    I always thought Magic damage is some kind of turn around in the battlefield only to be sadly mistaken in the world of Mabinogi where Physical damage in the end outclasses magic at a huge gap. Though Alchemy out dps Magic and Alchemy used to be the bottom feeder of the talents but now its duelgunner and Puppetry suffering from it!

    Endgame had became a Damage check where DPS is all that matters, always had been kill before they kill you. Meta talents, why do they have it so easy? Why couldn't the Devs give love to other talents? Why can't they all be powerful? Its not like Pvp is mainstream, its not like teamwork matters too much, its not like there even IS a role to play in the game. So why? Why be anything when your forced to be one?

    At least Magic is fun once you finally have good enough Magic damage but still fall short sadly.

    I am an Elf by the way, which is why I am upset that Id one day have to use melee when Elves had no kit to do remotely anything with it. This is how I see the state of Magic vs Physical. Id like to hear your thoughts and blast me with your criticism, Lay it on meh! O wo

    Those hidden resistance that endgame mobs have is REALLY annoying, a pathetic way to balance out talents.
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 123
    Member
    edited October 2
    Alshian wrote: »
    Ah yes....Magic damage, quite the luxury to have reached heights by paying blood and limbs for. Alas even with putting yourself through endless unstable flooring hell that can just gave out at any time you test your luck back to square one questioning why your even doing this when other easy options are available.

    Magic had it much rougher starting out a bit, gained efficiency at the middle, and then loss its flow by taking a HUGE dip at the damage charts from the talent damage scaling graph from each content from earlygame to midgame to endgame.

    Each talent had its flow while ruling out the duel stat talents because they were likely meant to be advance talents in midgame besides chainblades since Luck is limited while Dex is it's dominate stat.

    From what I noticed is that Magic damage talents took a hit in the graph I thought up mostly due to the mix in the Midgame content with mobs having questionable amount of MDEF/MPROT but then got hit HARD at endgame with nearly all mobs having 70% MDEF/MPROT with 30% being Physical Def/ Physical PROT at a rough guess.

    This pretty much would make me think Physical Damage is meta, from Final hit, Fighter, Lance, Bows, and other meta players discovered or brought up. It doesn't help that magic deals the least damage to endgame mobs that also have mana reflector as well but thankfully its so few.

    Magic deals GOOD damage no question, and with 1000+ Magic damage your damage would be AMAZING but its dps is not as great compared to some talents while endgame mobs prevent you from burst damaging since physical damage deals higher dps and better burst than magic in the end.

    Increasing Magic damage is pointless what the Devs should do is nerf endgame mob's overall Def/Prot and MDef/MProt ratio as well as reducing some numbers. Magic would always never be as good compared to the other talents at endgame but at least in midgame magic is just a monster talent.

    Even if you buff up your mage vs a physical damage dealer also buffed you'll end up being 60% less effective compared to Physical damage anyways. Your only advantage would be that you can deal AOE damage from afar as well as being tanky with mana shield. With a erg lvl 50 spirit weapon you can go nuts with AOE once you get your casting speed gear only to still fall off in dps because of Ninja nerf of mobs having resistance to named skills.

    I always thought Magic damage is some kind of turn around in the battlefield only to be sadly mistaken in the world of Mabinogi where Physical damage in the end outclasses magic at a huge gap. Though Alchemy out dps Magic and Alchemy used to be the bottom feeder of the talents but now its duelgunner and Puppetry suffering from it!

    Endgame had became a Damage check where DPS is all that matters, always had been kill before they kill you. Meta talents, why do they have it so easy? Why couldn't the Devs give love to other talents? Why can't they all be powerful? Its not like Pvp is mainstream, its not like teamwork matters too much, its not like there even IS a role to play in the game. So why? Why be anything when your forced to be one?

    At least Magic is fun once you finally have good enough Magic damage but still fall short sadly.

    I am an Elf by the way, which is why I am upset that Id one day have to use melee when Elves had no kit to do remotely anything with it. This is how I see the state of Magic vs Physical. Id like to hear your thoughts and blast me with your criticism, Lay it on meh! O wo

    Those hidden resistance that endgame mobs have is REALLY annoying, a pathetic way to balance out talents.

    Physical damage has better AoE than magic which is one of the saddest things

    erg50 divblade fh just makes magic look bad as an aoe skill.

    Also if you pay attention, cast speed basically does jack nothing on magic except for bolts
    Faster bolt charge speed
    SOFT LIMIT CAP CAST SPEED ON INT MAGIC (only erg can go beyond this cap)
    cast speed only affects the startup time of adv magic, aka faster meteorstrike loading, faster hailstorm loading(crystal charge does not change), lightning rod is always 2 seconds max charge.

    BFO is one of the huge factors that puts physical damage above magic damage along with 20% ppower potions.


    In general magic is all risk no reward compared to physical damage, staff erg is almost worthless 20MA and 30% int magic cast speed reduction.
    Int magic is weaker than fusionbolt.

    2h sword erg is literally broken
    50minmax 50defprot 300atkradius 15ping

    magic is jsut good at farming easy stuff with ice spear and thats about it because magic is not effective at mobbing unless if it kills in one hit, if you dont kill in one hit it just makes everything else harder to kill because theyre all over the place compared to using chain sweep or spinning slasher
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 61,390
    Posts: 7,925
    Member
    Owntrolf wrote: »
    Alshian wrote: »
    Ah yes....Magic damage, quite the luxury to have reached heights by paying blood and limbs for. Alas even with putting yourself through endless unstable flooring hell that can just gave out at any time you test your luck back to square one questioning why your even doing this when other easy options are available.

    Magic had it much rougher starting out a bit, gained efficiency at the middle, and then loss its flow by taking a HUGE dip at the damage charts from the talent damage scaling graph from each content from earlygame to midgame to endgame.

    Each talent had its flow while ruling out the duel stat talents because they were likely meant to be advance talents in midgame besides chainblades since Luck is limited while Dex is it's dominate stat.

    From what I noticed is that Magic damage talents took a hit in the graph I thought up mostly due to the mix in the Midgame content with mobs having questionable amount of MDEF/MPROT but then got hit HARD at endgame with nearly all mobs having 70% MDEF/MPROT with 30% being Physical Def/ Physical PROT at a rough guess.

    This pretty much would make me think Physical Damage is meta, from Final hit, Fighter, Lance, Bows, and other meta players discovered or brought up. It doesn't help that magic deals the least damage to endgame mobs that also have mana reflector as well but thankfully its so few.

    Magic deals GOOD damage no question, and with 1000+ Magic damage your damage would be AMAZING but its dps is not as great compared to some talents while endgame mobs prevent you from burst damaging since physical damage deals higher dps and better burst than magic in the end.

    Increasing Magic damage is pointless what the Devs should do is nerf endgame mob's overall Def/Prot and MDef/MProt ratio as well as reducing some numbers. Magic would always never be as good compared to the other talents at endgame but at least in midgame magic is just a monster talent.

    Even if you buff up your mage vs a physical damage dealer also buffed you'll end up being 60% less effective compared to Physical damage anyways. Your only advantage would be that you can deal AOE damage from afar as well as being tanky with mana shield. With a erg lvl 50 spirit weapon you can go nuts with AOE once you get your casting speed gear only to still fall off in dps because of Ninja nerf of mobs having resistance to named skills.

    I always thought Magic damage is some kind of turn around in the battlefield only to be sadly mistaken in the world of Mabinogi where Physical damage in the end outclasses magic at a huge gap. Though Alchemy out dps Magic and Alchemy used to be the bottom feeder of the talents but now its duelgunner and Puppetry suffering from it!

    Endgame had became a Damage check where DPS is all that matters, always had been kill before they kill you. Meta talents, why do they have it so easy? Why couldn't the Devs give love to other talents? Why can't they all be powerful? Its not like Pvp is mainstream, its not like teamwork matters too much, its not like there even IS a role to play in the game. So why? Why be anything when your forced to be one?

    At least Magic is fun once you finally have good enough Magic damage but still fall short sadly.

    I am an Elf by the way, which is why I am upset that Id one day have to use melee when Elves had no kit to do remotely anything with it. This is how I see the state of Magic vs Physical. Id like to hear your thoughts and blast me with your criticism, Lay it on meh! O wo

    Those hidden resistance that endgame mobs have is REALLY annoying, a pathetic way to balance out talents.

    Physical damage has better AoE than magic which is one of the saddest things

    erg50 divblade fh just makes magic look bad as an aoe skill.

    Also if you pay attention, cast speed basically does jack nothing on magic except for bolts
    Faster bolt charge speed
    SOFT LIMIT CAP CAST SPEED ON INT MAGIC (only erg can go beyond this cap)
    cast speed only affects the startup time of adv magic, aka faster meteorstrike loading, faster hailstorm loading(crystal charge does not change), lightning rod is always 2 seconds max charge.

    BFO is one of the huge factors that puts physical damage above magic damage along with 20% ppower potions.


    In general magic is all risk no reward compared to physical damage, staff erg is almost worthless 20MA and 30% int magic cast speed reduction.
    Int magic is weaker than fusionbolt.

    2h sword erg is literally broken
    50minmax 50defprot 300atkradius 15ping

    magic is jsut good at farming easy stuff with ice spear and thats about it because magic is not effective at mobbing unless if it kills in one hit, if you dont kill in one hit it just makes everything else harder to kill because theyre all over the place compared to using chain sweep or spinning slasher

    But but...anime!
    Radiant DawnHelsa
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,400
    Posts: 64
    Member
    edited October 2
    Alshian wrote: »

    Prelude:
    I don't know what "Meta" is or "endgame" is or whatever. I don't watch KR videos. I don't care about what's "the best" as determined by the elite class of players.
    I care about what works. I care about what gets me by in decent time.
    Right now, that has led me to using fighter, ninja, and chain. So, I'm not a "mage." And I just personally don't like using Final Hit outside utility needs.

    Actual rebuttal:
    Magic is fine as it is. If you're aware of upcoming changes coming to the game via G25 Techniques, you'll see exactly what would happen if magic weren't checked so hard at every turn. I spoke to a player who will remain unidentified, that has been around for a long while and keeps an eye on Korean activities. He explained to me that KR occasionally holds damage tests, where the players compete (for fun) to demonstrate who deals the highest dmg in under certain conditions.

    One particular week, the contest was damage dealt in one shot against the Succubus Queen. Mages consistently upheld high placements in the contest, via damage dealt by meteor strike. Meteor Strike, people. See, if you could reduce magic protection to 0 like physical players can with brionac -- or -- if magic had equal access to the same buffs (like bone chip farming) magic would obliterate everything except Perseus weapons, which it would viably compete with. And you can do something similar to brionac's mechanics when g25 comes, under limited conditions.

    Further observation about the capabilities of magic come from how 4 mages strategically applied their damage and protection shearing to the mobs of Awakened Abyssal Lord. These mages all heavily invested themselves into their gear and quite nicely made the entire mission a joke. Again, after g25.

    But, what people don't want to talk about is the "investment" part. Why do players expect to handle the hardest content in the game and do so with minimal effort via simple gear imitation -- without dealing with the fundamentals and background stats? You don't see people like Pasternak in that screenshot complaining about much, because they've built their knowledge and used resources to amplify their capabilities to a point of respectable dedication. If you're not willing to do (similar things to) what people like them have done, you will not get what people like them have.