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Thoughts and input on a reforge system overhaul.

SollSoll
Mabinogi Rep: 3,080
Posts: 139
Member
edited February 14 in Feedback and Suggestions
So first off, the current reforge system is... Massive. Its been something implemented a bazilion years ago, and people have already sunk a good chunk of money in it.

But if there is talk of releasing reforge rates and/or reworking them anyway, the whole system might as well be overhauled in order to make it more friendly, both as a system and for the consumer. So these are thoughts overall of how a new system could be.

First off, the money part. Of course there would be appropriate compensation given in exchange for moving from this current system to the new. There are many forms that could take:

- Nx compensation relative to buying history.
- A window of time / an event where free cash shop reforges are handed out to let players get back on their feet; and in sufficient amount.
- A permanent NPC put in game, or an npc that gets tasked with helping players move out from the old system to the new. Ill develop this later.

A combination of more compensation rather than less would be better, considering we are speaking of real currency here.

Not everyone will be happy, as that is impossible, but if the new system is inherently better -and fairer- than the old, with accurate compensation, the major changes it would involve could be mitigated. How so? Well, that's where I'm getting at.

The entire pool of reforges currently existing would need to be sorted out better. Some effects should never have been part of the reforge system; those can be put in a skill rework, either as a bonus from ranking it up or adding it to dan ranks, or moved to glyph effects.

I'll take, for instance, the shieldless charge reforge. That this would be a part of the dan test would make the goal of danning that skill more of a reason than to simply add more damage, which is the general trend for danned skills. It adds utility to a skill. In charge's case, it would allow players to have more versatility in close combat overall. With it, some reworks could be added in: Not using a shield when charging would mean that you would still be able to get knocked down while using it, and you would have less defense due to not having the shield and no shield mastery bonus, so you'd have to mitigate what you use and how you use the skill.

Stampede, which is inherently similar to the skill, could also get changes to match that of charge. Instead of relying on monster presence to use it, it could get an aim system similar to lightning rod, with the area affected shown as a path like some other skills show their aoe (ninja and chain skills namely)

Race specific and transformation specific reforges should also be moved out from that pool of effects and worked in either glyphs or the skill rank itself. Crafting success rates and grades should be put in their danned counterparts.

All in all, all 'utility' reforges, aka anything that does not immediately adds damage bonuses, should be worked in dan skills. A simple way would be that Dan 1 = level 5 reforge, Dan 2 = level 10 reforge, Dan 3 = level 20 reforge. All the elemental masteries would get their dan ranks as well as a result of this, just like their combat counterparts do.

And since more dans will be added, how about making them all fairer for high ping players? or less gimmicky? Other suggestions have already been made for this, though.

Effective range (Ranged attack dan) , casting speed (magic weapon mastery), elemental masteries, crafting quality/grades (production mastery) and the like would be moved into dannable versions of the skills.

In the long term, it would also make things simpler for the devs to take in account player power when designing new monsters and bosses.

Things like skill cooldowns, skill duration and skill damage would be kept a part of the RNG pool.

As a result, the left over reforge effects would be simpler to attain, and much more fairer.

Concerning the system itself:
The reforging system as a whole should be made f2p, considering how big of a part of the game it has become, and instead complete glyphs, which would also get a rework to be more usable in terms of a passive buff that you activate and deactivate as needed. Rank would affect how many glyphs/sets you can use at once.

The currently existing cash shop reforges could instead serve to move a reforge effect from one piece of gear to another. The various types (credne, plus) could serve to move more than a single line at the time. As well, some special cash shop reforges could also be priced -permanently, might i add- into the web shop to skip the rng part of ranking up an item.

To encourage players to move out from the old to the new system, in addition to compensation, you would be able to choose which effects will become what in the new system on your weapons and gear. This would make all reforges on the same level. The level of the specific reforge that you are changing would remain the same, as well as the rank.

So existing gear which has the old reforges on it would eventually be moved to the new system, which would hold, remember, a smaller pool of effects. It would also have the benefit of letting the player customize what they want and at no cost; which is the key part in this.

Should reforges be rolled with gold, it'll also provide a good alternative to a gold sink.

These are all thoughts and feedback on an eventual rework of the system; feel free to add your thoughts and such, as this is the original goal, but this is also for the devs themselves.

--Soll of Nao

Comments

  • ManhiemManhiem
    Mabinogi Rep: 565
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    Member
    There are a lot of things in this game that I think are far too random. The worst, of course,
    is buying outfits from the webshop only to find out that they come in hideous, uncoordinated
    colors that you then have to fix by dyeing them. The second is the reforge system.

    Reforge ranks? Number of lines? Random effects? It's just like they're saying "Here's a slot
    machine that may eventually give you something useful if you keep putting money in and
    pulling the handle." A lot of people go broke doing just that in Vegas.

    I would much prefer a system that had no Reforge rank. In fact, I would prefer a system where
    you could directly purchase the number of lines you wanted to put on your gear, and SELECT
    the effect and level that you wanted. Even if it was hideously expensive, this system would
    at least be fair, because you would know in advance what you were getting, and you would
    get what you paid for.
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,080
    Posts: 139
    Member
    Manhiem wrote: »
    Reforge ranks? Number of lines? Random effects? It's just like they're saying "Here's a slot
    machine that may eventually give you something useful if you keep putting money in and
    pulling the handle." A lot of people go broke doing just that in Vegas..

    With mabi being a F2P, you can't entirely keep out the RNG it has been based on since its release. There are better options that could be implemented -- and have been suggested many times, as well-- but the matter of reforges is that it's always been a Pay to Be Op type of thing. Simply choosing what you want off the bat isn't a viable option for the game's health, which, to be fair, is also pretty skewed right now in terms of damage and scaling. Reforges have been a staple of damage and utility being put elsewhere than in skills themselves, yet their availability is inherently unfair, which is what my suggestion is about, really.
    Manhiem wrote: »
    I would much prefer a system that had no Reforge rank. In fact, I would prefer a system where
    you could directly purchase the number of lines you wanted to put on your gear, and SELECT
    the effect and level that you wanted. Even if it was hideously expensive, this system would
    at least be fair, because you would know in advance what you were getting, and you would
    get what you paid for.

    A system that has no reforge ranks, we already have that, somewhat: Glyphwrighting. The ranks of reforges also works similarly for Echostones, which are also free on their own. The main issue is that reforges as a whole, right now, are too cash shop relevant and have abysmal rates and overall is anti-consumer.

    Having reforges more available ingame, and bought outright for gold, would solve the real money gambling issue and would also provide a very much needed gold sink that all players can effectively use, assuming 'normal' grade reforges are priced relatively low, to compare to the 5k NPC reforge we can currently get.

    The idea of having cash shop tools to completely skip ranks may be a good alternative, though, so I added that in the main post. c:
    It would also be a good income revenue for nexon, which is what the current system aims at.
    It also works for the whales that might want to spend more.
  • DemoncatDemoncat
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,290
    Posts: 73
    Member
    I honestly agree they should completely rehaul it or get rid of the useless reforges e.e like injury rate defence protection, the ones that givr e stats are pretty meh
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    Demoncat wrote: »
    I honestly agree they should completely rehaul it or get rid of the useless reforges e.e like injury rate defence protection, the ones that givr e stats are pretty meh

    Okay, this I can get on board with. Way more reasonable than "Just make everything free." I think instead of having a bunch of useless effects like these, maybe they can create new effects that aren't going to be highly used or sought and yet still have some kind of use in modern-day Mabi. Granted, the clutter effects are what push people to keep throwing cash at the game for rerolls, so...

    ... yeah.
    Manhiem wrote: »
    you would know in advance what you were getting, and you would
    get what you paid for.

    They're called "Memory Reforges" and they were released on a sale a couple months ago. Nobody really used them. Why? Because they're useless unless you're trying to get dual/triple-rolled effects on gear. If you're just nakedly rolling gear, you'd still just use Fines. And you do get what you pay for: You bought a tool that randomly gives you a chance to get an effect you can use or want. But, this is pretty much just going to rehash the whole "Gacha is unfair and RNG is bad" discussion and I don't care to get into it.
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,080
    Posts: 139
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    Demoncat wrote: »
    I honestly agree they should completely rehaul it or get rid of the useless reforges e.e like injury rate defence protection, the ones that givr e stats are pretty meh

    Okay, this I can get on board with. Way more reasonable than "Just make everything free." I think instead of having a bunch of useless effects like these, maybe they can create new effects that aren't going to be highly used or sought and yet still have some kind of use in modern-day Mabi. Granted, the clutter effects are what push people to keep throwing cash at the game for rerolls, so...

    This suggestion isn't about making reforges entirely free. It's about keeping its core aspects more attainable for the average player, and let those who want to invest money into more power and the like, to still be able to do so, with the customer actually getting something worth their money for. The pricing of what's in the cash shop is entirely up to nexon.

    When most of endgame relies on reforging gear, it doesn't make much sense to have as little access we do to reforges normally. Especially considering that we are likely the only region without Ducat shop reforges.

    Mabi's sales been pretty heavy into the P2W as of the past few years; powercreep is already incessant in gacha. Allowing more players to gain access to a system that is currently very flawed and predatory can only be a bonus, if the cash shop part is done right.
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    edited February 26
    Soll wrote: »
    This suggestion isn't about making reforges entirely free. It's about keeping its core aspects more attainable for the average player, and let those who want to invest money into more power and the like, to still be able to do so, with the customer actually getting something worth their money for. The pricing of what's in the cash shop is entirely up to nexon.

    I see, so you're asking for the complete opposite. Do you guys realize you're actually asking for what players call "Pay to Win?" I get it, reforges help. Some reforges are just necessary at a baseline (like with Magic). But, when you start asking for the privilege of being able to further tie together the ratio of cash-on-hand to damage output, I'm going to flat-out contest you on that. But, let's say they did make reforging more accessible: do you think they won't later simply create another system that will surpass the absurdity of reforging? Everyone can Final Hit for 20 more seconds, now. So, here's this new system that would make you even stronger if you RNG some cash into rerolling some set effects (or whatever they'd come up with). They still have to make money, man.
    When most of endgame relies on reforging gear, it doesn't make much sense to have as little access we do to reforges normally. Especially considering that we are likely the only region without Ducat shop reforges.
    I don't know about other players, but I'm f2p (I haven't spent more than $25 on this game in the 4 years I've been here) and I have plenty of access to reforges and I've spent my fair share of gold on reforging tools (well over 700m) well before I decided to start putting my old laptops to use for extra RNG rolls. There's plenty of relatively cheap gear with high level reforge rolls on the AH that cost basically 3 Ruptured Black Metals and some change. My first Final Hit gear was bought by me grinding out some Avalon Raids and selling the materials, back on Tarlach, and I didn't need it to accomplish all I had done before that point that included soloing Phantasm before g22 dropped.

    More importantly to my position here, the constant focus on using reforges to get by on top of this obsession with "the best" gear is causing most of this stress. Many people don't deal with the underlying fundamentals before tackling the obvious gold/cash sink that is this system. They don't finish training up their skills, they don't deal with Echostones, they don't special upgrade, they don't enchant, they don't obtain master titles, they don't build renown, they don't level their spirits, they don't build/collect totems, and they don't look for ways to improve their damage outside of Reforges and "endgame" gear. That's not Nexon's fault that people feel the need to shell out tons of cash for 20 more maximum damage on their gloves, to be used against an enemy that'll reduce that by 75% or more.
    Mabi's sales been pretty heavy into the P2W as of the past few years; powercreep is already incessant in gacha. Allowing more players to gain access to a system that is currently very flawed and predatory can only be a bonus, if the cash shop part is done right.

    But, didn't you just ask earlier that Nexon make it more worthwhile to pay for boosts? "This suggestion isn't about making reforges entirely free. It's about keeping its core aspects more attainable for the average player..." Other than that, what exactly are we trying to "win," here? It's not as if content literally cannot be done without reforges. Heck, many people still can't do it even with reforges! But, let's compare some things in an example:

    Saint Guardian Armor: The body has 10/10 points of the Attack Speed Set Bonus on it and comes pre-r1. People primarily use it for Final Hitting with a 2H weapon, so they'll try and roll Final Hit Duration on it. It comes with maximum rolled stats.

    Languhiris Chaser Armor: The body has 4/10 points of the attack Speed Set Bonus and must be crafted. People primarily use it for Hitting with a 2H weapon, so they'll also reforge it for Final Hit Duration. The stats are randomized and the quality of them can be determined via Master titles. To obtain the full Attack Speed set effect, you'll have to use enchantments like Owl and Hawk and Hummingbird and maybe grab a second Languhiris gear piece.

    Special Forest Ranger: The Body has 10/10 points of the Attack Speed Set Bonus on it, plus a set bonus of 8 Maximum Damage and comes clean. People primarily use it for Final Hitting with a 2H weapon, so they'll try and roll Final Hit Duration on it. It comes with maximum rolled stats.


    What exactly is the "pay to win" part between all three of these? It looks more like "pay for convenience." Using Saint Guardian and Forest Ranger basically just frees enchantment slots for a Backbreaking/Camo ES, for a maximum potential of 24 max damage (19 higher than Owl on gloves and Hawk on shoes). Are you making the argument that 19 (+8 from Forest Ranger) more max damage on a non-Langu Final Hit set would be "Pay To Win?" Or, are you arguing that 1-20 seconds more duration / 2-120 seconds less cooldown on Final Hit is "Pay To Win?" I'm not ignoring the obvious "Creepy/Eerie/Allegro + Spooky/Haunted" accessory dilemma, but that's probably also debatable.

    My belief is that the content is being scaled around player reforge usage, not the other way around so as to force reforge usage; people were using reforges long before this content came by. But, now there's a challenge to be met by putting more bonuses to use and I think people simply don't like that. Expecting to be able to obtain and utilize something as potentially powerful as Perseus/Revenant without investing something (time, money, or both) into the game is a bit ... unreasonable. I still agree that the reforge system could do with the removal of so much clutter, because nobody is going to need a boost to their injury rate and every stat can be capped by just Linking with a pet. We can agree there, at the very least!
  • ManhiemManhiem
    Mabinogi Rep: 565
    Posts: 30
    Member
    edited February 26
    Well, again, I don't like random. I like to know what I'm getting. But that's just me. Other people may like pulling
    that slot machine handle - a LOT.

    As I understand the situation, Nexon needs the reforges to be random, because they make a lot of money selling
    reforge tools out of their webshop. The players who don't have a lot of cash to spend at the webshop would like
    reforge tools to be available in-game. So, one approach would be to make the reforge tools available in-game, but
    make them so hellaciously expensive in terms of gold that people who can afford the rl money will buy through
    the webshop instead. Well, that's easy. Just make the Fine Reforge tool availble in-game for 150,000 gold. Rather
    than spend huge amounts of in-game gold, people with rl money to spend will go through the webshop. But, the
    tool will be available in-game for people who won't or can't spend the rl money.

    As an alternative to the random, slot machine model of reforging, I would suggest something like this:

    1) Do away with reforge ranks. Their only purpose is to force people to keep pulling that handle, hoping that the
    number of levels they can get for a particular effect will go up.
    2) Make people buy a tool to put a reforge line on their equipment. They can only apply a tool to the item ONCE,
    so, they have to decide up front whether they want to put, one , two, or three lines on it. The one-line tool costs
    10000 NX, the two-line tool costs 50000 NX, and the three-line tool costs 250000 NX. Gotta pay to be uber, right?
    3) Allow the buyer to decide what effect to put on each line (each effect can only be put on a piece of equipment once), and charge for the level he wants. Level one comes with the effect, so say it costs 10000 NX just to choose
    the effect. Then, the cost goes up 3 times for each additional level, so level 2 costs a total of 30000 NX, level 3 costs 90000 NX, level 4 costs 270000 NX, and level 5 costs 810000 NX. Gotta pay to be uber. Level 5 is the most you can put on one effect on one line of gear.

    Again, make these tools available in-game at 100 times the cost in gold.

    There. The buyer gets what he wants. The tools are available in-game, but at such staggering cost that those who
    can afford it will go outside the game to buy through the webshop. Everybody is happy. Especially Nexon.

    Does this all sound a bit cynical? I hope so. In my opinion, allowing people to buy things outside of the game to make
    their characters more powerful is just wrong. Free to play but pay to win? It's just wrong.
    AlmostNotsuper
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    edited February 26
    Manhiem wrote: »
    [everything else]
    How on earth are you coming up with these numbers and prices? It seems more like you're coming up with numbers designed to just punish people for being wealthy, on basis of a skewed perception of "pay to win" (a phrase that obviously seems to shift in meaning according to convenience), rather than "balance" anything. 810000 NX? Seriously, mate? PRices are determined by what people want to pay, not pulled out of someone's rear end. Nobody's forcing them to pay it, either. They chose to; I see no guns held to anyone's head.
    Does this all sound a bit cynical? I hope so. In my opinion, allowing people to buy things outside of the game to make
    their characters more powerful is just wrong. Free to play but pay to win? It's just wrong.

    Okay. Why is that wrong and how is that the same as "pay to win?" Why is it wrong to allow people to pay for a service or product -- in a free-to-play game -- which in turn pays to keep employees housed and servers alive? It's not as if free-to-play can't catch up and don't just literally get handouts for doing absolutely nothing other than logging in every day. I don't see anyone complaining about the VIP service and calling that "pay to win," as I see people get flooded with Unrestricted passes every Friday, free to grind up as many materials as they can in 24 hours. These "issues" seem highly cherry-picked, which defeats the point of the discussion as it's clearly aimed more at personal progression and personal advantage rather than game development as a whole.

    So, why is it wrong to reward people who play the game of statistics and win at it? The gacha rates are there. We know the reforging rates (somewhat). Why all the anger at people who simply can afford to whale out enough to get what they want? They play the same RNG as you would and they've actually helped us out, the free-to-play players. I've obtained gear and reforges I'd never fathom could exist, if it weren't for the gracious greed of the whales giving me the opportunity to grind up some gold and throw it at them to get my hands on it all.

    So, why? Why is it all wrong? Rather, in what case do you think turning this into an argument of morality will win over the developers who may or may not share your sense of morals? This is an issue of business, friend. I'd suggest sticking to that angle, if you want changes to happen. For you to convince Nexon to make such changes, you'll have to actually argue why they should be changed, from the angle of what would interest all possible parties that would be involved; not just what dictate changes that would benefit you at someone else's loss and this goes for both the whales and the free-to-play players.
  • ManhiemManhiem
    Mabinogi Rep: 565
    Posts: 30
    Member
    edited February 27
    I guess I'll start by defining what I mean when I say "pay to win". Suppose you have to defeat a boss in order to clear
    a quest or finish a storyline. But in order to do that, you have to have gear or weapons or effects that you can't quest
    for or farm for, or have an in-game crafter make for you. They have to be purchased outside the game and brought
    in. And, just to be clear, I don't care whether you can buy them second hand from someone else who brought them
    in, the fact is that they had to come from outside the game. That is what I mean by "pay to win". Maybe there are no
    such bosses in Mabinogi. If so, then I'm wrong, and I'll admit it.

    Why is it wrong to bring in something from outside the game to give your character an advantage? Well, let's ignore
    for the moment how the gamemaster could manipulate the game to his advantage to force the players to pay him
    whatever he wants or be unable win. Let's focus instead on how this would affect the other players. The next time
    you play Monopoly, try bringing in extra trays of money from other copies of the game that you purchased. See how
    the other players react. The simple fact of the matter is that allowing people to buy things outside the game to give
    their characters an advantage means that the player with the deepest pockets will always be the one with the edge.
    Is that right? But you are correct. That is a moral issue, and Mabinogi is a game run by a business. In order to keep
    the game running, they have to make money.

    Where do the numbers come from? The exact numbers aren't important to me. I could easily be off by orders of
    magnitude. I don't mean for them to punish players with money to spend. They are just there for the purpose of
    illustration. How many times would you have to pull that slot machine handle to get the exact effect you wanted
    (out of what looks to be over 100) at the level you wanted, considering that you may have to rank the gear up to
    rank 1 in order to get that? If Nexon is to make the same kind of money from a direct sale that they get through their
    slot machine model, how much would they have to charge? My guess is that they eventually get a lot from their slot
    machine, just not all at once. I'm sure that Nexon could compute appropriate prices. After all, they know all the
    probabilities involved - it's their business.

    The thing that upsets me is that I'm afraid that people are spending more money on their gear than they realize,
    because they're not spending it all at once. And if they knew what the eventual price tag was going to be, they
    might not be willing to spend the money. That makes me feel that the slot machine model is a treacherous and
    insidious way to get people to spend more money than they mean to, and possibly more than they can really afford.
    As I pointed out earlier, people have gone broke thinking that the next big win (or in this case, the effect they want)
    could be just one pull of the handle away. Is the casino responsible if people can't control their spending? Maybe
    not. But I don't think they're completely clean, either.

    One final note - you could hand my character every advantage in the game, and I probably still wouldn't be able
    to defeat Negahyde (or whatever the name of that thing was that Hexavalent summoned), and I know it. :-) If I
    thought that the gear would make a difference for me, I could get it second hand.
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,080
    Posts: 139
    Member
    Manhiem wrote: »
    [everything else]
    Prices are determined by what people want to pay, not pulled out of someone's rear end. Nobody's forcing them to pay it, either. They chose to; I see no guns held to anyone's head.
    Does this all sound a bit cynical? I hope so. In my opinion, allowing people to buy things outside of the game to make
    their characters more powerful is just wrong. Free to play but pay to win? It's just wrong.

    Okay. Why is that wrong and how is that the same as "pay to win?" Why is it wrong to allow people to pay for a service or product -- in a free-to-play game -- which in turn pays to keep employees housed and servers alive? It's not as if free-to-play can't catch up and don't just literally get handouts for doing absolutely nothing other than logging in every day. I don't see anyone complaining about the VIP service and calling that "pay to win," as I see people get flooded with Unrestricted passes every Friday, free to grind up as many materials as they can in 24 hours. These "issues" seem highly cherry-picked, which defeats the point of the discussion as it's clearly aimed more at personal progression and personal advantage rather than game development as a whole.

    So, why is it wrong to reward people who play the game of statistics and win at it? The gacha rates are there. We know the reforging rates (somewhat).

    First off, you've said it yourself; you spent over 700m gold, in-game, on reforges. Do you feel you've gotten something worthwhile out of that amount? Counting all of the work you've put in to actually get these kinds of assets, too?
    Manhiem wrote: »
    The thing that upsets me is that I'm afraid that people are spending more money on their gear than they realize, because they're not spending it all at once. And if they knew what the eventual price tag was going to be, they
    might not be willing to spend the money. That makes me feel that the slot machine model is a treacherous and
    insidious way to get people to spend more money than they mean to, and possibly more than they can really afford.

    This is what the main issue is. Reforges are not simply a pay-for-convenience anymore. Not at the point they are at, if you wish to compare Gacha-only Titles, Armors, and Enchants, to only name those. Reforges is a slot machine designed at its core to only fuel money to Nexon while being very unrewarding for the consumer. It's the casino offering you deals and choosing how the game is meant to be played.

    VIP service is that; a service. It does not give as much of an advantage as gachapons or reforges do. The player still needs to put in effort.

    And no, we do not know the reforge rates; if you meant to use the Wiki as a reference, it is merely but a glimpse of the iceberg. Antigambling laws over in KR are what got us the gacha rates at all; and this is now switching over to reforges, but for a system that is likely very skewed, of course the devs don't really wish to show how screwed it is.

    We are at the point where content, and new systems, like Erg, take in account the amount of powercreep that comes from the web shop sales. Sword Erg isn't useless for no reason. Remember all those threads about G21, or G24 (minus the boss) being too difficult? The difficulty took in account those variables, that is why. Devkitty actually adds passive defenses to bosses against specific skills, simply because the amount of efficiency those can get when reforged, like Final Hit since you use that example, simply outpaces everything else. Elemental damage reforges is also another example; most bosses you'll see nowdays are immune against it.

    All it does is ultimately add more work for the devs since they need to take in account the sheer amount of power players can get from the many, many systems and then add reforges on top of it. If you simply choose to ignore it, kudos to you, but that is simply not how the game functions.

    You realistically cannot, as a F2P, obtain acceptable reforges on your weapons unless you dish out insane amounts of gold. The cash shop is and still stays the sole viable source of reforges. Events and the dungeon guide give out too few for it to really count.

    Yes, the game has many, many things for you to work on to get stronger, but you cannot ignore that reforges are a part of it.

    Are reforges OP? Not by themselves.
    It's the path needed to get to a point where the system becomes viable to you, the player, that is the issue.

    Trimming the system down not only benefits the player, but also the devs themselves.
  • SpySpy
    Mabinogi Rep: 615
    Posts: 7
    Member
    edited February 27
    Manhiem wrote: »
    [everything else]
    So, why? Why is it all wrong? Rather, in what case do you think turning this into an argument of morality will win over the developers who may or may not share your sense of morals? This is an issue of business, friend. I'd suggest sticking to that angle, if you want changes to happen. For you to convince Nexon to make such changes, you'll have to actually argue why they should be changed, from the angle of what would interest all possible parties that would be involved; not just what dictate changes that would benefit you at someone else's loss and this goes for both the whales and the free-to-play players.

    OK, lets talk business.

    1. There are public protests and open complaints at Nexon Kr, part of the reason for this protest includes: KR reneging on their promise to disclose reforge rates. The reforge system is riddled with a history of bugs and frustration, for example, when guns were released you could get dual roll of dual gun max damage. This was patched by nexon which caused people to get upset because they had spent large amounts of money under the pretense that they could still get dual rolls, and nexon had to actually unfix the bug. It is very likely the new director intends to revamp the reforge system. The current reforge system is poorly designed, convoluted and arcane, that's bad for business (and also illegal in KR in my opinion, not a laywer)

    2. Pay to win model has been steadily losing favor because of the obvious dissatisfaction of f2p people.F2P keeps games alive, because they are the backbone of the economy, much like how the poor are the backbone of society. The time gap between being a new player and reaching endgame is extremely wide, this causes new players to quit before they even reach end game, which late game crafting materials are scarce and expensive. The current player population is more or less being held together only because of the existence of "cousins", because this allows people to actually obtain crafting materials in a (barely) reasonable amount of time. If F2P players leave, regular spenders and whales will eventually leave because the game will feel dead. That is bad for business.

    3. F2P obtainable reforges is not bad for business, it is actually good. Why? This lets player experience the system before spending money, it will speed up their precious conversion rate. (Also see: Aside) When people know what their getting into, they are more quickly able to make a decision to buy the next time around, thats why food businesses offer occasional promotional events where they let you get a free sample of their new product. If they like it, you get a new customer, this costs you some money but in general if your product is genuinely good you should make a profit. At the current state, I think reforges are a horrible product, and they would probably not gain many more customers, this is why reforges should be changed. In fact Dungeon guide is an example of promotioning reforges, as players can actually obtain reforges for free, except the stock and usage is very limited and it is explicited stated on the item that the effectiveness of the reforges are actually worse than NX reforges. If a new player didn't read the fine print, they would probably think that all reforges are bad, and arn't worth their money. This is an example of a bad way to implement free reforges, and is actually bad for business. If executed poorly, like how they have done it so far, f2p reforges are bad for business, but if implemented well they could definitely increase conversion rate. There is a business saying after all: "You have to spend money to make money".

    Conclusion: This isnt an essay I am not here to convince you. People don't change their minds anyways. Does this horrible conclusion make all the effort you spent reading this, and I spent writing this fruitless? Yes, absolutely.

    Aside. F2P does not mean hand out, players still have to work towards getting reforges. The problem lies in the fact that reforges can only bought from auction house at the prices that other players set, rampant inflation and supply and demand constantly changes. Reforges are basically required in the late game. The price of reforges needs to be more stable and newer f2p players need access to them if people want new f2p players to join and stick around longer. In the current times, we have actually seen Nexon NA handing out more reforges to players, which is clearly exactly what you don't want, but nexon is aware (whether or not it is a conscious awareness is up for debate) that players need access to reforges.
    Hot take: The current f2p people who keep playing are fools and degenerates, anyone who knew better has already jamp ship or avoided the game entirely. This game is alive, sure but its literally on the ICU, the only reason its still alive is because of these textbook insane f2p player who still haven't quit.

    TL;DR: This post was is a waste of time to read. F2P reforges are good in my opinion, but it's not like reaching across the aisle/trying to convince others is possible, esp on the internet.
    ManhiemAlmostNotsuper
  • DemoncatDemoncat
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,290
    Posts: 73
    Member
    I honestly find the whole reforge system complete garbage and should completely rehaul it end of story
  • ManhiemManhiem
    Mabinogi Rep: 565
    Posts: 30
    Member
    edited February 27
    Spy wrote: »
    This game is alive, sure but its literally on the ICU, the only reason its still alive is because of these textbook insane f2p player who still haven't quit.

    Yes, yes I am (insane). And you're right about the game being in the ICU. It has been slowly dying for years. I'm not
    sure whether Nexon has just given up on it, and is trying to make as much as they can off of it before they pull the
    plug, or whether they actually believe they can rekindle interest in it through escalation.

    Mabinogi wasn't originally pay to win. All the way up through the Saga, you could finish the story with normal
    equipment, smithing upgrades, and enchants. But something happened when G19 came out. Suddenly, the mobs
    were insanely powerful, or they swarmed you so badly that you couldn't defeat them all in time. Why the sudden
    shift? Did someone at Nexon decide that escalation was the key to the future? Or did they get a taste of what they
    could make off of their gachapon and reforge tools, and decide to rig the game so that they could rake in the cash?

    Hm. Well, let's take a look at what happened before G25 was released. Suddenly, Nexon found it in their hearts to
    nerf the G19-G24 storylines so that the people who couldn't make it through before could suddenly break through.
    Why would they do that? Could it be so that they could confront all the players with yet another insurmountable
    obstacle, which would encourage them to buy more gachapon and reforge tools in hopes of powering their way
    through? Say it isn't so. XD

    So, yes, the f2p people who are still here must be insane. Hanging out, polishing their skills and advancing their
    craft for what? I think the answer is just inertia. We keep going down this same dead end path because we lack
    the will to change.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,240
    Posts: 288
    Member
    Manhiem wrote: »
    Where do the numbers come from? The exact numbers aren't important to me. I could easily be off by orders of
    magnitude. I don't mean for them to punish players with money to spend. They are just there for the purpose of
    illustration. How many times would you have to pull that slot machine handle to get the exact effect you wanted
    (out of what looks to be over 100) at the level you wanted, considering that you may have to rank the gear up to
    rank 1 in order to get that? If Nexon is to make the same kind of money from a direct sale that they get through their
    slot machine model, how much would they have to charge? My guess is that they eventually get a lot from their slot
    machine, just not all at once. I'm sure that Nexon could compute appropriate prices. After all, they know all the
    probabilities involved - it's their business.

    The funny thing is, you're not even off by orders of magnitude. You've got maybe twice what I'd say the reasonable price is, based on what it commonly takes to get ideal rolls. If anyone wants to bring in numbers to correct me, be my guest.

    Personally, my idea of an ideal reforging system is deleted one where some equivalent of fine and credne reforges are regularly obtainable through in-game means, and all of the cash shop reforges are made to guarantee some sort of bypass to the rng of regular reforges. Say there's one that allows you to lock in one line, allowing you to keep it if you roll again. There could be another that allows you to directly level up effects on your equipment, or one that adds a new line. Things like that.

    Reforging remains RNG in nature, there's still an advantage to be gained by paying Nexon, but reforges become available to everyone. The one additional change I would make to this system, similar to what Manhiem suggested, is to increase the number of ranks (5 seems like a reasonable number), and limit the possible levels of a given reforge to those of their rank, instead of the rank only providing a ceiling. That might be too much to ask for in addition to everything else, though - especially given that one of the NX reforging tools is used to level up effects.

    Something to keep in mind, is that for this system to work, 100% repair would probably have to go out the window. Even if Nexon increased the price of cash shop reforges (which I think would be reasonable, given that they'd give guaranteed results), they probably wouldn't be able to make up for the amount people would have had to buy with the current, completely rng system. Hopefully, putting people back on repair prots could bolster sales enough to compensate. To me, this isn't really an issue, as I think it's the solution to other problems as well - most notably, the lack of supply of crafting materials for certain weapons. If equipment were more temporal by nature (unless you pay to keep it), then it wouldn't be that big a deal for some insanely rare things to become more common.

    Another idea I had, which is related to this, is the idea of crafted weapons coming with reforge effects. I came up with it as one of a few possible ways to improve crafting, but someone thought it was an interesting way to address reforges too, so I thought I'd mention it.
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    edited March 18
    I totally forgot I even posted here, but I've come back to walls of text and... I'm just going to say good luck to all of you who want the system to be overhauled (your way).

    I'm not for or against, because I don't buy reforges (with cash) and likely never will.
    But, I do find being called "textbook insane" (for being F2P) to be hilarious, when I'm only paying 60m for a dual-rolled piece of fighter gear (SSK damage and Drop Kick damage, thank you) compared to the much higher amount of NX/gold spent reforging it. When I tell people my total NX purchases, they never believe me.

    But, if playing intelligently makes me insane, then call me Harley Quinn. :joy:

    EDIT: I can answer this one, though:
    Soll wrote: »
    First off, you've said it yourself; you spent over 700m gold, in-game, on reforges. Do you feel you've gotten something worthwhile out of that amount? Counting all of the work you've put in to actually get these kinds of assets, too?

    Sure do! I bought and used reforges during reforging events and events that gave out free reforging tools, with gold I saved up from selling materials, older gear and echostones. I am proud to say that I have reforged a good chunk of my own gear (large majority of what I reforged started with r3; 1L) that I simply couldn't expect to buy. I've spent maybe 75% of what I obtained on my Special Eiren Suit alone, trying to get a high roll Chain Sweep Attack Range on it before luckily getting a 20 level roll on echo.

    The point is that a majority of my gear I reforged is now worth far more than what I spent, because of decisions I made that majorly weighed risk-benefit. Even if it doesn't hold high market value, it's what I wanted or what I can use that fits into my adaptive playstyle., which in turn helped farm more things to sell off in the long run.
  • swardandshoesswardandshoes
    Post: 1
    Member
    if you do this it would mean 1 less thing players have to worry about when building up their powercreap not only is 40% -90% of the game is blocked off because of reforges you are losing out on new players who like the game but say the damage they do isnt enough because of this people who are WHALES go on PRIVATE places to get some END game gear for a butt load of cash... (dont do this *cough *Cough* defintly havent done this my self*) which than destroys the economy in mabi if you do a overhaul on reforges you will more likely get the whales back and more money from normal people and makes well long time fans of the game be able to actually enjoy the content instead of afking being lazy and only hunt for them op players to help speed the game up... 2nd i have heard from some old players that they try to do gen content but they lack the power to beat the mission so ya doing a overhaul on reforges will defiantly help the game out this way players can play your game and earn it them selves while also maybe buying... vvip services hm hm?????? xD