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A disturbing trend that needs to change

VimaVima
Mabinogi Rep: 555
Posts: 26
Member
in General Chat
Something I have noticed over my long time playing is a disturbing trend I like to call the "Nexon Mentality"

What I mean by this is that any of the communities in the various Nexon games, especially the older ones; have one thing in common. The worse you are to someone, the more respected you are by the community. This is especially true in Mabinogi and it's counterpart Vindictus!

People group up and select people as targets to bully without justification and I have been sick of it for a long time; watching others and even having been targeted myself in the past as groups of people take advantage and bankrupt other players to the point of quitting. Whether the means be legitimate or outright TOS breaking, people look the other way and always say "the victims deserve it, take advantage of them if you can"

I bring this up because I want the community to improve, I really loved this game but even logging in causes me near-stroke levels of stress due to the community. Reporting individual incidents doesn't seem to work so I see bringing awareness of the toxicity of the community is the best way to start change for the better.

Let me know what you all think about this since this game can truly be enjoyed if we all were just even a little bit nicer to each other.
  1. Do you think the community needs improvement?16 votes
    1. No, both servers seem fine
       25% (4 votes)
    2. Yes, the community on both servers need improvement
       50% (8 votes)
    3. Nao's community needs improvement
       6% (1 vote)
    4. Alexina's community needs improvement
       19% (3 votes)

Comments

  • NegumikoNegumiko
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,535
    Posts: 1,089
    Member
    I play on channel 4 of Alexina most of the time and I have only had that issue once. most of the players are nice and some just ignore you but there have been lots of times when I just play music with random groups of people and we all get along just fine. sad to see something like this is even a issue, we are all part of the same game so try to be as nice as you can. it has been over a year since I have witnessed a player in Alexina being bullied directly and the few times it does happen someone usually jumps into help. when I was a new player I was bullied once and my friend defended me. so if you see it happening say something about it and help the player that is being bullied.

    completely agree though, we need to remove any toxicity like this and the best way to do that is stand up to them and make players aware of what is happening.
    Sherri
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    edited July 8
    Omg, Vima. Stop it. We talked about this.

    Stop trusting people to tell you what your items are worth and stop trying to be the community police if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Liars and sociopaths exist and they will try to destroy you if you become a problem for them. This is a fact of life. Accept it and prepare yourself or stop pursuing this and focus on the game as I told you before. If you cannot present evidence for your claims, then do not make the claims. That is called "slander" and people don't like that.

    I want to be on your side, but you're making it very difficult by disingenuously pretending you have not put yourself into terrible situations to be exploited. It is not Nexon's job to make the community behave in ways you want it to. Nexon is not our mommy or daddy and they are not gods that can ultimately eradicate evil. Look out for yourself and stop expecting everyone else to do it for you. Nexon does have a job in banning those that violate ToS, but they are not your or anyone else's personal morality police (and that criticism is aimed towards them as well to stop trying to be gods to us and focus on improving the game, not promoting ideological dogma).
    Crimsọn
  • LovePandaLovePanda
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,255
    Posts: 61
    Member
    Actually, harassment is in fact against the TOS and no they do not do anything about it. I for one have taken video of others being harassed and reported sending in the video and not a thing was done. So yes nexon needs to step up and follow their own rules.
    Vima
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    edited July 8
    LovePanda wrote: »
    Actually, harassment is in fact against the TOS and no they do not do anything about it. I for one have taken video of others being harassed and reported sending in the video and not a thing was done. So yes nexon needs to step up and follow their own rules.

    Harassment in itself is a very vague thing and I doubt either you or myself can define it outside of legalities, because it is now subjective to the person's mental abilities. The definition in modern 2021 society has been so diluted, that people think getting a note from someone saying something mean to them is harassment.

    The extra issue is that this is the Internet, where you have a lot of control over who interacts with you and how often. It's different from reality, because you have block features and you can literally just poof to another realm or place -- or shut off the monitor.
    Harassment is vague and watered-down as a concept thanks to many people who don't have the basic ability to ignore things and move on, and that's why it's difficult to nail companies to the wall over it.

    Taking a screenshot of someone talking to you in ways you don't like is not alone evidence of harassment. Evidence of harassment would fall into something like a long log of continuous chat texts constantly insulting you and making fun of you about something -- more evident if among those insults exists a line from you telling them to stop and go away.

    Even then, you can solve that issue alone by just blocking them. And if they note you, don't read the notes. If they request to add you and you've never met them before, don't add them. These are basic precautions that should be taken by people who are not naive to the idea that humans can indeed be terrible human beings; expecting people not to do these things opens you up to this exact problem. Vima is a great example of this kind of person who will not take personal responsibility in filtering out people who follow certain patterns of behavior. Additionally, Vima throws punches from time to time, and it is not harassment when you yourself went out throwing punches and just happened to get your nose broken.
    FerghusonJRPolicromaBlissfulkillSherri
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,705
    Posts: 8,639
    Member
    Omg, Vima. Stop it. We talked about this.

    Stop trusting people to tell you what your items are worth and stop trying to be the community police if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Liars and sociopaths exist and they will try to destroy you if you become a problem for them. This is a fact of life. Accept it and prepare yourself or stop pursuing this and focus on the game as I told you before. If you cannot present evidence for your claims, then do not make the claims. That is called "slander" and people don't like that.

    I want to be on your side, but you're making it very difficult by disingenuously pretending you have not put yourself into terrible situations to be exploited. It is not Nexon's job to make the community behave in ways you want it to. Nexon is not our mommy or daddy and they are not gods that can ultimately eradicate evil. Look out for yourself and stop expecting everyone else to do it for you. Nexon does have a job in banning those that violate ToS, but they are not your or anyone else's personal morality police (and that criticism is aimed towards them as well to stop trying to be gods to us and focus on improving the game, not promoting ideological dogma).

    This. I mean you can ask people but ultimately you have to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. Because ultimately if you get ripped off you only have yourself to blame.

    You can't change people. People can only change themselves. Watch out for yourself.
    Wolfsinger
  • PolicromaPolicroma
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,600
    Posts: 557
    Member
    There's a group of elitists on the game, but at least in-game, they tend to keep to themselves. Yes, admittedly it's because they think the rest of the in-game populace is beneath them, but at least you usually don't have to deal with it. Most people you'll run into just playing in-game are fine.

    Yes, there's people who will jump their whole guild online just to give you hell, or people who will treat you like dirt for asking about an item they're selling, etc. That's where you take names and tell them to kindly "bug" off when you get a high-demand gacha drop and they keep trying to ask you if you'll sell to them as if you were always best buddies. Oh my, I just revealed my nastier side, didn't I?
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,120
    Posts: 2,781
    Member
    Did it get worse when I quit? Many people seem pretty fine to me, and the biggest booty sphincter online was actually me, and I was called out on occasion. Most people seem to keep to themselves unless you go into pretty demanding content, which I never had negative experiences with, personally.
  • HigaHiga
    Mabinogi Rep: 810
    Posts: 28
    Member
    I mean I don't really see it much, but are you surprised? This is a weeb game, I cosplay and like anime and everything, but most of our ilk are weird incel introverts who don't know how to interact with people past middle school mentality.
    VimaBlissfulkillSherri
  • VimaVima
    Mabinogi Rep: 555
    Posts: 26
    Member
    edited July 9
    Omg, Vima. Stop it. We talked about this.

    Stop trusting people to tell you what your items are worth and stop trying to be the community police if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Liars and sociopaths exist and they will try to destroy you if you become a problem for them. This is a fact of life. Accept it and prepare yourself or stop pursuing this and focus on the game as I told you before. If you cannot present evidence for your claims, then do not make the claims. That is called "slander" and people don't like that.

    I want to be on your side, but you're making it very difficult by disingenuously pretending you have not put yourself into terrible situations to be exploited. It is not Nexon's job to make the community behave in ways you want it to. Nexon is not our mommy or daddy and they are not gods that can ultimately eradicate evil. Look out for yourself and stop expecting everyone else to do it for you. Nexon does have a job in banning those that violate ToS, but they are not your or anyone else's personal morality police (and that criticism is aimed towards them as well to stop trying to be gods to us and focus on improving the game, not promoting ideological dogma).

    Yeah I have made poor decisions, and people have taken advantage of me, but that is only a very small part of why I want the community to change. However Sophie, you regularly put on this "tug and pull" nonsense whenever I speak to you privately. Not to mention at every available chance you get you try to make it like it is entirely my fault alone and that is a very big part of the "Nexon Mentality" I speak of. You even straight up threatened me saying that if I become your enemy I would regret it, which I'm not trying to do here but you are rather forcing it. As for the part about making claims with/without evidence. I have provided TONS of evidence of past incidents, just not to you because to be honest I never trusted you and you literally have no authoritative power. Reporting incidents simply does not help, regardless of where you post it or submit it to.

    I meant for this thread to be a call for positive change, not for you to yet again say everything that happened to me is my fault.
    LovePanda wrote: »
    Actually, harassment is in fact against the TOS and no they do not do anything about it. I for one have taken video of others being harassed and reported sending in the video and not a thing was done. So yes nexon needs to step up and follow their own rules.

    Harassment in itself is a very vague thing and I doubt either you or myself can define it outside of legalities, because it is now subjective to the person's mental abilities. The definition in modern 2021 society has been so diluted, that people think getting a note from someone saying something mean to them is harassment.

    The extra issue is that this is the Internet, where you have a lot of control over who interacts with you and how often. It's different from reality, because you have block features and you can literally just poof to another realm or place -- or shut off the monitor.
    Harassment is vague and watered-down as a concept thanks to many people who don't have the basic ability to ignore things and move on, and that's why it's difficult to nail companies to the wall over it.

    Taking a screenshot of someone talking to you in ways you don't like is not alone evidence of harassment. Evidence of harassment would fall into something like a long log of continuous chat texts constantly insulting you and making fun of you about something -- more evident if among those insults exists a line from you telling them to stop and go away.

    Even then, you can solve that issue alone by just blocking them. And if they note you, don't read the notes. If they request to add you and you've never met them before, don't add them. These are basic precautions that should be taken by people who are not naive to the idea that humans can indeed be terrible human beings; expecting people not to do these things opens you up to this exact problem. Vima is a great example of this kind of person who will not take personal responsibility in filtering out people who follow certain patterns of behavior. Additionally, Vima throws punches from time to time, and it is not harassment when you yourself went out throwing punches and just happened to get your nose broken.

    The fact you're trying to outright blame everything on me to this extent is amazing; trying to derail my thread after pretending to be my friend since October, I should have seen this coming. That's beside the case though, you straight up say I pick fights without context, I just try to advocate that those people who are part of those I want to change for the better do so, or face the consequences. On occasion, I have actually saved other people from suffering the same fate I have in the past; Only to be targeted by those people myself. While, yes there are people who I thought were outright irredeemable I have gone after on my own only for the system itself to betray me left me angry.

    I don't regret what I did in the past, as my intention was always for the community's improvement. I did go about it the wrong way but the fact that I feel you were sent to keep an eye on me and to outright sabotage anything that I do sounds outrageous but with how hard you're trying to shut me down seems about right. So with all due respect, we're not friends anymore sophie; but i'm sure we never were in your case.

    With that out of the way, yes I have issues with people too, I'm not the best person; that is why I want the community to improve. I am a part of the community so I want to improve myself as well so I'm not viewed as such a volatile person.
  • BobbioBobbio
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
    Posts: 62
    Member
    i mean i kinda understand what you're talking about, but this is really a niche issue for a very minute group of people that you just have to avoid aka those elitist mabi players. it's pretty easy to tell because if you try to ask them a question they'll completely ignore you or something similar to that retrospect.

    most people i encounter however aren't very toxic at all, i'd say the majority is nice but you can get caught up with focusing on the few bad apples of the bunch.
  • VimaVima
    Mabinogi Rep: 555
    Posts: 26
    Member
    Bobbio wrote: »
    i mean i kinda understand what you're talking about, but this is really a niche issue for a very minute group of people that you just have to avoid aka those elitist mabi players. it's pretty easy to tell because if you try to ask them a question they'll completely ignore you or something similar to that retrospect.

    most people i encounter however aren't very toxic at all, i'd say the majority is nice but you can get caught up with focusing on the few bad apples of the bunch.

    I disagree on this being a "niche issue" its more of the fact that people are too scared to talk about it.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,705
    Posts: 8,639
    Member
    Did it get worse when I quit? Many people seem pretty fine to me, and the biggest booty sphincter online was actually me, and I was called out on occasion. Most people seem to keep to themselves unless you go into pretty demanding content, which I never had negative experiences with, personally.

    Honestly everything is fine. Someone is just having a bad time. It will pass.

    I didn't know you quit.
  • PannyaPannya
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,505
    Posts: 201
    Member
    edited July 9
    i literally just saw it happening, some people keep bulling players at girg raids, i was not aware of that situation mostly because i have not been able to stay in any guild, all the ones i've tried are dead so i do most of the content solo, idk about geata missions, i will try them tomorrow, btw girg raids were fine this morning (central time), idk if that helps to avoid those people.
    In fact i suggest to avoid events where regular power is involved, hardcore players become very toxic when things are not done the way they want.
    VimaBlissfulkill
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,705
    Posts: 8,639
    Member
    edited July 11
    Pannya wrote: »
    i literally just saw it happening, some people keep bulling players at girg raids, i was not aware of that situation mostly because i have not been able to stay in any guild, all the ones i've tried are dead so i do most of the content solo, idk about geata missions, i will try them tomorrow, btw girg raids were fine this morning (central time), idk if that helps to avoid those people.
    In fact i suggest to avoid events where regular power is involved, hardcore players become very toxic when things are not done the way they want.

    If it's actually a problem the person who was bullied can report them if it really bothers them. The same goes if they need your help they can ask or you can try talking to them. Did you try ask if they were ok? Do you even know what was actually going on?

    Do any of you?
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,120
    Posts: 2,781
    Member
    Crimsọn wrote: »
    Did it get worse when I quit? Many people seem pretty fine to me, and the biggest booty sphincter online was actually me, and I was called out on occasion. Most people seem to keep to themselves unless you go into pretty demanding content, which I never had negative experiences with, personally.

    Honestly everything is fine. Someone is just having a bad time. It will pass.

    I didn't know you quit.

    I didn't so much quit as I discovered beer and local women in my area.
  • SilvariaSilvaria
    Mabinogi Rep: 340
    Posts: 6
    Member
    edited July 11

    I want to be on your side, but you're making it very difficult by disingenuously pretending you have not put yourself into terrible situations to be exploited. It is not Nexon's job to make the community behave in ways you want it to. Nexon is not our mommy or daddy and they are not gods that can ultimately eradicate evil.

    While the hosts of a community don't have to regulate the community, they probably should. The state of social media (largely unregulated until said lack of regulation began to take on political and regulatory dimensions) attests to this. The problem is that reducing harassment requires hiring more moderators, which requires money, and even if Nexon NA did want to do this, it still has to pass the KR mothership's veto.

    Anyway, this exact attitude is why i quit. Nao is much better (larger pop means the assholes have less relative influence i guess, idk) and I'm glad about it, but this thread is a sobering reminder of the ongoing issues. Can't really do much about it until someone with real power decides that this isn't what their community to be. But despite the short term outlook of basically every company, Nexon no exception, it's costing them more money to not police the community than to do so - seriously, nobody likes lolbert mentality except the loud and fanatical ideologues who think the natural state of the internet is a 4chan board. Meanwhile you lose another 20 players to Genshin or FFXIV because there's *no* community in the former and there's simply less toxicity in the latter.

    Blissfulkill
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 20,685
    Posts: 4,450
    Member
    Since this is a free-to-play game, where one can be beautiful/handsome, rich, powerful, and strong, it creates an escapist environment. Like the game "Second Life", for some, Mabinogi also can be a second life of sorts. For those of us where it's just a game and we've never really had an issue with bullying, not because of luck but because we know how to handle ourselves and do not have low self esteem, it can be hard, for some, to empathise with those folks who do suffer from these issues. These folks are especially attracted to here, where they assume they can be safe and they can forget about their poisonous self image. Those of us that don't have these issues saying, "man up", "just don't think that", or "just don't let it bother you" don't realize that this doesn't help. The problem is these folks don't believe in themselves and no "logical" argument is going to change that; they need to be shown that they are better than they give themself credit for. The good news is that the "proof" doesn't have to be valid, it just needs to be convincing, but I digress. I don't think that the number of folks, that NEED Mabinogi to be a safe space is trivial. As such, finding a way to keep it as such does have value for Nexon. They recognize as much as there are some structures in place to accomplish this. Are they good enough? Do they work? Do we need more? Are people using them right? Are they using them at all? These are all worthwhile discussions.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 63,705
    Posts: 8,639
    Member
    edited July 11
    Silvaria wrote: »

    I want to be on your side, but you're making it very difficult by disingenuously pretending you have not put yourself into terrible situations to be exploited. It is not Nexon's job to make the community behave in ways you want it to. Nexon is not our mommy or daddy and they are not gods that can ultimately eradicate evil.

    While the hosts of a community don't have to regulate the community, they probably should. The state of social media (largely unregulated until said lack of regulation began to take on political and regulatory dimensions) attests to this. The problem is that reducing harassment requires hiring more moderators, which requires money, and even if Nexon NA did want to do this, it still has to pass the KR mothership's veto.

    Anyway, this exact attitude is why i quit. Nao is much better (larger pop means the assholes have less relative influence i guess, idk) and I'm glad about it, but this thread is a sobering reminder of the ongoing issues. Can't really do much about it until someone with real power decides that this isn't what their community to be. But despite the short term outlook of basically every company, Nexon no exception, it's costing them more money to not police the community than to do so - seriously, nobody likes lolbert mentality except the loud and fanatical ideologues who think the natural state of the internet is a 4chan board. Meanwhile you lose another 20 players to Genshin or FFXIV because there's *no* community in the former and there's simply less toxicity in the latter.

    Say no to police state.

    There is such a thing as over-moderation and it can cause a lot of problems for the majority when you pander to just the few. Because then moderators and staff end up looking like a bunch of gestapo douchebags (heh! add that one to the filter lol). I will state this again, if your feelings get hurt because of mean words and it becomes a problem or if it really bothers you then you need to empower yourself and report them.

    Now for some bullying; you have no resolve. If this community really bothers you, why are you back? Also it doesn't matter where you go online. Mean people exist everywhere, you need to be a little more resilient.

    Today's generation calls this narcissism.
  • VimaVima
    Mabinogi Rep: 555
    Posts: 26
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Since this is a free-to-play game, where one can be beautiful/handsome, rich, powerful, and strong, it creates an escapist environment. Like the game "Second Life", for some, Mabinogi also can be a second life of sorts. For those of us where it's just a game and we've never really had an issue with bullying, not because of luck but because we know how to handle ourselves and do not have low self esteem, it can be hard, for some, to empathise with those folks who do suffer from these issues. These folks are especially attracted to here, where they assume they can be safe and they can forget about their poisonous self image. Those of us that don't have these issues saying, "man up", "just don't think that", or "just don't let it bother you" don't realize that this doesn't help. The problem is these folks don't believe in themselves and no "logical" argument is going to change that; they need to be shown that they are better than they give themself credit for. The good news is that the "proof" doesn't have to be valid, it just needs to be convincing, but I digress. I don't think that the number of folks, that NEED Mabinogi to be a safe space is trivial. As such, finding a way to keep it as such does have value for Nexon. They recognize as much as there are some structures in place to accomplish this. Are they good enough? Do they work? Do we need more? Are people using them right? Are they using them at all? These are all worthwhile discussions.

    The phrase "safe space" isn't what I'm trying to accomplish, it's fine that people want a place to be to express themselves. However, when things are as bad as they are I think something has to change. The biggest issue is that the big guilds aren't held accountable for their illegal actions and even brag about having game masters protect them from being banned. Since I'm not allowed to name-drop on this forum, I'm only going to show the message I received when I inquired if the rumor was true. I did indeed report this and immediately got an "auto-response". Ultimately, that doesn't look good at all.

    Mabi_censored.png

    As I have repeated before this is a call for positive change, and things that need to change along with it. By no means do I want a "safe space" I just want everyone to be treated fairly and equally, especially by the system itself.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 20,685
    Posts: 4,450
    Member
    Vima wrote: »
    The phrase "safe space" isn't what I'm trying to accomplish ... By no means do I want a "safe space" I just want everyone to be treated fairly and equally, especially by the system itself.

    If you feel that you personally don't need such a thing then good for you! But there are lots of folks here that do; I've met many. Most of them would not have the courage to say so though, as that is a part of their personality that they feel is a burden to them, and so a big part of the reason why they want to escape into the game, but also they think it would make them look "weak", in front of everyone, and they feel that that would be like putting a target on themselves. I'm sure they're all behind you though!
This discussion has been closed.