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Is there any reason to use a bow over a chainblade

DerringerDerringer
Mabinogi Rep: 400
Posts: 16
Member
in Help
I was just sitting down and trying to work out the damage for bows, to see if it was worthwhile to focus archery instead of chainblade. In particular the newest weapons (Demolition Breaker Bow and Bow of Ruination) are STUPIDLY expensive (~130mil for the former and ~1bil for the latter) which led me to wonder if they were worth the investment or if I was better off just rolling with a cheap (~5mil) chainblade and happily using Chain Impale / Chain Crush for days.

So here's how I figured the damage:

* Assume every skill is r1 / dan3 and every talent is GM for maximum stats
* Assume current level 200 / exploration level 50 at the age and talent most appropriate for the desired stats
* Assume sufficient totems / homestead relics / enchants / Divine Link to round up any stats for easier math
* Assume total level 40k for maximum Shine of Eweca
* Assume max roll echostones (+130) for all relevant stats

Per https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats_and_Skills the skills / talents yield:

* DEX: 1,171 (Elf)
* LCK: 443

Per https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Character#Character_Growth at age 10 or 11 and Elf receives 0.75 DEX per level and 0.50 LCK per level. You'll gain a total of 248 levels (200 - 1 normal levels and 50 - 1 exploration levels) yielding additional stats of:

* DEX: 186 (total: 1,357)
* LCK: 124 (total: 567)

Your character will also gain 38 DEX and 17 LCK just by aging up. So we can add that in, too.

Per https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Divine_Link: Divine Link adds 50% of your pet's stats PLUS 40% of your pet's current level.

Assuming a Warrior Corgi, age 4 will maximize both DEX and LCK. So if you leveled up to 200 at age 4 with a Glimmering Golden Supplement you've got 189 DEX and 130 LCK. This mean you add to your character:

* DEX: 95 (50% of pet's stat) + 80 (40% of pet's level) = 175 (total so far: 1570, capped at 1500)
* LCK: 65 (50% of pet's stat) + 80 (40% of pet's level) = 145 (total so far: 729)

I've demonstrated that you hit the DEX cap (with Divine Link) without factoring in talent, so we can go Mercantile for maximum LCK: 0.50 per level (124 total) - meaning our LCK is now 853

Per https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Shine_of_Eweca, Shine of Eweca adds:

* DEX: 334
* LCK: 200

Add these plus the 130 echostones we assumed and your stats are now:

* DEX: 1964
* LCK: 1183

We can't take DEX any higher (we hit hard cap) but we can round LCK out to 1200 with totems for easier math

Now for the damage calculations. First, base damage added by stats. Bows benefit ONLY from DEX, whereas chainblades benefit from LCK as well:

* Bows: 561 ~ 786... with 80% balance that's ~741
* Chain: 798 ~ 1082... with 80% balance that's ~1025

I'm notably ignoring any "max damage" enchant, "max damage" totem, "max damage" from titles, and damage on the weapon. The first 3 apply equally to bows and chainblades and I'm only interested in comparing their differences. The latter I assume is similar between the two and dwarfed by the damage added by stats (and enchants and totems and titles and mastery skills...)

Before doing anything else, chainblades are dealing 280 more damage just because they add LCK to damage. But now let's get into the real meat:

* Magnum Shot multiplier: 560% -- damage so far = 4,150
* Chain Crush multiplier: 750% -- damage so far = 7,688

Chainblade skills also benefit from Dorcha Mastery (https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Dorcha_Mastery), for which bows have no similar skill:

* Chainblade skill multiplier: x1.1 -- damage so far = 8,457

But wait, there's more! Chainblades can benefit from Chain Burst (https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Chain_Burst):

* Chainblade skills: x1.3 -- damage so far = 10,994

I'll ignore Deathmark as this increases ALL damage (bows as well). For similar reasons I'll ignore things like Battlefield Overture, combat power potions, bone chips, etc. While these increase damage, they affect bows and chainblades equally.

Now we can look at reforges. For bows there's one reforge of interest: Magnum Shot Damage

On gloves this can add up to 200% to the multiplier, on an accessory up to 60% (times two for two accessories). That increases the multiplier from 560% to 880% if you had three max-rolled reforges -- a net gain of 57.14% damage

Chain Crush is less lucky in this regard. They have the 60% accessory reforge, but no 200% glove reforge. So it only gets to a max 870% multiplier -- a net gain of only 16.00% damage

HOWEVER chainblades can get "Dorcha Mastery damage". This increases the 1.1x multiplier to a 1.3x multiplier! A net gain of 18.18% damage! Combining these two reforges yields a net gain of 37.09% damage

So with reforges:

* Bow damage = 4,150 * 1.5714 = 6,521
* Chain damage = 10,994 * 1.3709 = 15,072

Even with the Demolition Breaker Bow (+50% Magnum Shot Damage) and the Demolition Breaker Arrow (+20% damage) Magnum Shot is still only doing 11,738 damage. You have to use a Bow of Ruination with an Arrow of Ruination in order to JUST BARELY surpass the chainblade damage... but then remember that bows have to aim (lower DPS) and have a miss chance! But if you really want to pretend that bow beats Chainblade in damage, remember this:

* The "Slasher of the Night" second title "increases the effect of master titles" - so I believe this increases the 20% bonus damage on the master title further
* Chainblades deal melee damage, so they can benefit from Support Shot, getting +70% (or +100% with the master title) damage!

Note that I ignored critical hits for the same reasons I ignored Battlefield Overture, bone chips, etc. -- bows and chainblades benefit equally from these

So I have to ask: Am I missing something? Or are bows just absolute trash compared to chainblades? It seems like without spending 1 billion gold you can't outperform a Beginner Cardinal Chainblade, and even AFTER spending 1 billion gold the chainblade can still win with the right setup...

Comments

  • ookieookie
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,700
    Posts: 148
    Member
    edited July 25
    too much number crunching for me...lol...i would just say simply that it depends on if you're a human, or elf...bows are for sniping from a distance...it allows kills that're beyond the range of regular bolt magic, alchemy, pretty much most things...you can also attack well outside of detection range in many cases....if you're an elf then you have the joyful pleasure of also spreading poison amongst a group of mobs before they even detect you along with the random transformation bow skills similar to intermediate magic....Crash Shot is FRIKIN AWESOME too....then there's the ability to shoot from certain mounted pets.....as a human the joy is not as spectacular so i'd say Chain

    bow is sniper range fighting (also pretty much the only way to take out Wyverns from the ground) whereas Chain is medium range like Ninja, Magic, and Alchemy (i can touch you, but you can't touch me)...you can shoot someone with a long range bow before they get close enough to slam you with anything else....in the open air your bow is dominant from a distance....in a dungeon you're best from an obscure corner with a bow....if you wanna get your hands dirty in the midst of the battle then go with Chain

    where Mabi excels at is the ability to cross train pretty much EVERYTHING....so have fun with ALL of the skills/weapons....don't restrict yourself to the mentality of other MMOs that have class restrictions that you have to 'choose' a skill set....Mabi lets you do any, and all, at the same time....go for it.....shoot 'em in the rear with your bow to get their attention, crack 'em with your chain to make your point, then follow up with a lightning bolt so they don't forget....lol

    don't forget to poke 'em with your sword a few times too
  • DerringerDerringer
    Mabinogi Rep: 400
    Posts: 16
    Member
    I guess my post WAS a bit too long - I just wanted to show my work. I'll summarize:

    * I already assumed you're an Elf when doing the math
    * I already assumed you had r1 / Dan3 / GM in every skill / talent - I know you can cross train everything
    * In late-game Mabinogi anyone will tell you DPS is king. "Sniper range" means nothing against enemies who aggro from across the world or missions that require you to stand in a small circle while enemies swarm you

    Because DPS is king, I was calculating DPS (ignoring range). If you want to factor in things other than DPS, then:

    * Chain is actually longer range than Ninja, about on par with Magic / Alchemy
    * Chain Sweep has a bigger AoE and more damage than Crash Shot
    * Final Shot is awkward to use compared to Human and Giant Final X skills
    * Elven Magic Missile isn't dependable and is slow to use
    * The aim mechanic drastically lowers ranged DPS as you wait 2-3 seconds between attacks to aim
    * Even after waiting 2-3 seconds you can still MISS for 0 damage -- cutting down the DPS
    * Chain has the annoying Dorcha mechanic to manage, so I guess bows have that going for them

    The math is above, so here's the final numbers:

    * Elf Magnum Shot with any "normal" bow (not Bhafel Hunter, Demolition Breaker, or Ruination): 7,499 damage per shot with Bohemian Set (I calculated 6,521 above since I forgot about Bohemian Set)
    * Elf Chain Crush (longest range chainblade skill, so similar range to bows): 15,072 damage per shot

    When Chain Crush does DOUBLE the damage, has no miss chance, and doesn't require aiming - I don't see any reason to favor bows EVEN ON AN ELF.

    At best you can use the Bow of Ruination to get +100% Magnum Shot damage and +25% all damage from Arrow of Ruination, but you're paying ONE BILLION GOLD for the pleasure, plus massive repair costs. Meanwhile the damage I calculated for Chain Crush can be done with a Beginner Cardinal Chainblade
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,460
    Posts: 285
    Member
    The Chain Blade and the Bow are optimal in specific situations; you're looking at this from literally one point of view: damage.

    Damage is not solely the determining factor in a weapon set's content viability. The Chain Blade and bow both have weakness that each, ironically, cover for the other. Alright, what do I mean?

    What I mean is that if you were to invest into Crash Shot, you'll have something more dependable to use for clearing out fodder in low-tier to mid-tier dungeons. You can add Elemental reforges to bows, so you can add a large amount of base damage to the fragments. This means that the bow can make your Floor 1/2 dungeon runs go by much more quickly than a chain blade. If you combine Ruination + Crash Shot Frag Range Reforge + Crash Shot Frag Range Glyph, you'll get more coverage than even an Attack Range level 20 Chain Sweep Reforge. If you're an elf, this saves more time and you can use the elven mount mobility to keep the momentum rolling by never having to dismount to clear fodder. You can use Combo cards with Magnum Shot and Crash Shot, adding to their viability. Additionally, Magnum Shot easily surpasses Chain Blade's Chain Impale by miles in terms of frequency and damage, human or elf. But, that's why Chain Blade has Death Mark, to assist more viable talents wherever it falls short. Conversely, Support Shot can magnify Chain Impale, but you won't be using that strategy on mobs that move a lot -- another problem Chain Blade struggles with.

    The Chain Blade is well rounded and does not particularly excel in any one thing. It serves as transitionary talent until you can find something to invest into, but the Chain Blade itself is also in itself capable of being an investment. The Chain Blade emphasize one-shot, high-power hits. The animations of Sweep and Slasher are roughly 6 seconds long, making them long enough to stall out a lot of cooldown for other talent skills you may wish to combo with Chain Blade. The primary issue with Chain Blade is that if you don't pack enough into it, it won't perform. Chain Blade utilizes every single aspect of character growth, including renown, ego, reforge, echostone, stats, and enchantment. Chain Blade also has technical advantages, allowed a knowledgeable user to circumvent a lot of problems with boss fights. The Chain Blade slow, but powerful hits can end up getting outsped in lower-tier content, so you'll end up getting outplayed by someone who simply uses Final Hit or Shooting Rush to clear fodder as you waste dorcha trying to Sweep mobs that are already dispatched.

    Simply put, use both in tandem. This is not a game where one talent is "better than" another one in everything. Each talent has it's place. Do not observe talents as if there's a competition; research them as if you're trying to find out where one helps out another.
  • SgiathachSgiathach
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,875
    Posts: 115
    Member
    as nifty as this read is its best just to wait for the archery rework Korea is testing were they get rid of bow miss chance then test it out
  • ChoCho
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,780
    Posts: 197
    Member
    Chains are broken so it's not really good to compare a power creep weapon to a legacy weapon but the main things it has is the safety of range in distance and behind barrier spikes. In a situation where an enemy isn't moving and can't be knocked back, an elf can spam magnum shot, point-blank, with vision and FS. Max aim should be instant, coupled with Elves low magnum cooldown. Bows also have knockback with magnum and urgent shot where chainblades pull enemies in and knockdown in place. Bows can get innate piercing depending on the bow and get a 1.5x damage multiplier next to campfires.

    Chains have crazy multipliers but I believe they'll eventually buff the other talents if chains are allowed to have multiple 700%+ damage multipliers with a good stat per damage ratio. Apparently they're already testing puppetry buffs in Korea since chains came along and stole their Dex-based melee damage with big AoEs niche.