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Netherlands Trade Limitations Update

Comments

  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    edited December 9, 2021
    Netherland's ban on lootboxes does not correlate with in-game services and purchases.

    For this to make sense, make a ban on the NX shop for Netherland players to prevent them from buying said lootboxes, gachapons, and other.

    Remove the in-game restrictions. It does not abide with the law you are claiming to follow. You are ruining the player's enjoyment, and destroying their purpose to play.

    I'm not from Netherlands but I empathize for the community as they are a loving warm part of the Mabinogi community and they love mmo games.

    Mabinogi is alive because of your players. So start empathizing and hearing their voices, for they are what run your servers.

    The last country ban, the mass ban, and now this ban, the more bans you give out you will kill the community.

    Be more logical and reasonable in your decisions, this is poor management.

    As a means to prevent "gambling" by minors, or otherwise, via gachapon, you're right, this makes no sense. Perhaps then this has to do with real money changing and the prevention of it. Since all these actions prevent ANY in-game commerce by Dutch players. On a side note, ironically, the very nation that invented worldwide commerce is banned from doing that very thing. If this is the case then ALL on-line games where this kind of thing could happen, including those games without the "gambling" element, should have all in-game commerce curtailed for Dutch players. Can anyone confirm this?
    arlie1987
  • arlie1987arlie1987
    Mabinogi Rep: 630
    Posts: 18
    Member
    I dont play alot of games. But i do know mabi is the only one doing this to us. And if this stays in im very sad al the hours and pets i bought over the past years. Sins 2012 but il wil say goodbye to mabi then because i cant do nothing no more. The game just got unplayable. I can't even get the stuff i wanted for my hs. Or the gold i saved for that one dress or wings gat get that no more. And even receiving something from my friends. Or even giving something back to them what i borrowed. Non of that. So the game just became unplayable. Can't even do my generation quest no more fukk this.
  • arlie1987arlie1987
    Mabinogi Rep: 630
    Posts: 18
    Member
    And why can we still buy pets? That is spending money. Not the ingame trades etc.
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,765
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    I feel sorry for Netherland players, this is just too ridiculous. How is this even legal is baffling to me. Some players spent money on this game and now this is how they get appreciated in the end.
    I suggest just dropping this game. It's already barely alive, literally alive because of people who can't let go of this game for years.
    arlie1987Helsa
  • ManukaManuka
    Mabinogi Rep: 400
    Posts: 5
    Member
    So VPN isn't working, don't know why...
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,205
    Posts: 8,866
    Member
    edited December 10, 2021
    Greta wrote: »
    I feel sorry for Netherland players, this is just too ridiculous. How is this even legal is baffling to me. Some players spent money on this game and now this is how they get appreciated in the end.
    I suggest just dropping this game. It's already barely alive, literally alive because of people who can't let go of this game for years.

    Well because even if we spent our own money on stuff in this game or any of Nexon's games...ToS dictates that we essentially do not own anything in-game. This is why if they shut down the game tomorrow - they don't have to owe us anything.

    Just so we're clear, I don't condone or approve any of these business practices or how Nexon operates. I am just telling you how it is. They are completely blunt and overdone, all for the sake of covering their own asses. A good majority of this execution was unnecessary.

    arlie1987 wrote: »
    Novancy wrote: »
    I'm not from the Netherlands but what? You can't DROP items? How to you get rid of stuff then? That makes the game unplayable eventually; you'll one day just run out of inv when you have items that can't be destroyed or sold to an NCP. I get Nexon has to comply with these for legal purposes but that caveat makes no sense to me. How does that have anything to do with gambling?

    i from Netherland to, and all this stuff have nothing to do whit gambling nothing at al even the in game auction house its not that we all spent real money, u spend gold what u get in the game by getting items, and selling them that have fukking nothing to do whit gambling or loot-boxes etc, if we buy whit our hard urned gold we are not gambling at al. restricting us in the shop was already bad but stil playable but now it became unplayable i also borrowed something from a friend now i cant return it to him > u nexon now im sooooo mad solf this

    Please submit a ticket and see if an admin can return your items to you at the very least. Also tell them who that item belongs to so they can send it back to them for you. I'm sure someone will help you. If not...please let us know because I will blast that.
    arlie1987
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    edited December 10, 2021
    Manuka wrote: »
    So VPN isn't working, don't know why...

    For all you folks that have moved from the Netherlands.

    I'm guessing it is because your account is still registered as being in the Netherlands. I see two possible ways around this:

    1) I think Nexon would rather not lose players but would rather not get in hot water more. So, if you can play the game in a way that gives Nexon plausible deniability vis-a-vis the authorities then they'll look the other way. So:
    a) contact support and tell them that you have moved out of the Netherlands and are no longer subject to the limitations and want your account location field to reflect your new address.
    b) including the action of (a) do this all from a VPN server located, say, in the UK, or US. Make sure to ALWAYS use that VPN after this. If you forget, even once, then Nexon is vulnerable and will have to shut you down.

    2) Abandon your account, and make a new one. Do this from a VPN server located, say, in the UK, or US. Make sure to ALWAYS use that VPN after this. If you forget, even once, then Nexon is vulnerable and will have to shut you down.

    arlie1987
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,205
    Posts: 8,866
    Member
    edited December 10, 2021
    deleted
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    edited December 11, 2021
    poof
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,205
    Posts: 8,866
    Member
    Helsa wrote: »
    Crimsọn wrote: »
    You should not be talking about how to circumvent this in these forums.

    anime-girl.gif

    Obviously my intended audience are those folks that have already moved out of the Netherlands; was I not clear?

    Oh ok derp. They just need to contact customer service and show them their US documents and proof of residence.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    Crimsọn wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Crimsọn wrote: »
    You should not be talking about how to circumvent this in these forums.

    anime-girl.gif

    Obviously my intended audience are those folks that have already moved out of the Netherlands; was I not clear?

    Oh ok derp. They just need to contact customer service and show them their US documents and proof of residence.

    Doubtful, after all none of us had to. When we made our accounts, the website detected our location via the IP address.
  • LeadtLeadt
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,275
    Posts: 37
    Member
    edited December 10, 2021
    I totally agree that THIS is NONSENSE. (my list keeps increasing)

    TRADING items and goods is LITERALLY how the world runs!!!!!.. Isn't banning Gacha purchases enough? That is actually "REAL money" spent by REAL people in a "lottery" made by the company. But ya'll didnt ban Reforge purchases - which is gamling for giga lines?? 8D

    And Nexon, you're literally making the GOLD in-game, WORTHLESS for them.

    I agree with Helsa and yall. I'm upset and feel pain for my friendss! They don't even want to 'play' anymore cuz its ..now supeerrr hard to advance without being able to trade!...

    and HOLD ON -...YOu LOCKED THE MAIL?..where the CROM BAS STORY LINE STARTS??!!!... HUUUHH??

    Seriously, like Nexon, how long/who did you use to write these decisions up? Including this one:

    "Entering Uladh/Iria Dungeons using Item Drops, or touching the statue
    If you are in a party as a party member, you can enter the dungeon with other players when they enter.
    You can enter a dungeon if you use a Unlimited Dungeon Pass."

    If you're STILL gonna let them RUN dungeons..........What is nexon worried they're gonna drop at the alter?? PERS KNUCKS to enter? Also gonna point out, if theyre so worried, they better worry too about END CHESTs mat drops rates! Is that STILL "gambling" So............................ Sadly. Looks like Nexon may have to remove Mabinogi entirely if they start nitpicking??? Or just well..ban all dungeon runs too?? But then...how to get mats? Cant even trade.. ..ok ..so System shut down. So stupid. OR.
    Just guarentee every thing 100% in Mabi haha. No more %'s for whatever drops / items :D Full coin system??? and ONE NPC shop for all mats with set prices then???
    Like a total government ownership. Hm.............. Food for thought????

    Does Nexon even read these?? You can still change things you know, Nexon!!!!
    Crimsọnarlie1987
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,745
    Posts: 4,983
    Member
    What is really important here is whether this issue is stemming from an initiative originating in Brussels or in The Hague. If it's coming from Brussels then that is really bad, because that's the EU rather than Dutch government.
    arlie1987
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,205
    Posts: 8,866
    Member
    edited December 11, 2021
    Leadt wrote: »
    I totally agree that THIS is NONSENSE. (my list keeps increasing)

    TRADING items and goods is LITERALLY how the world runs!!!!!.. Isn't banning Gacha purchases enough? That is actually "REAL money" spent by REAL people in a "lottery" made by the company. But ya'll didnt ban Reforge purchases - which is gamling for giga lines?? 8D

    And Nexon, you're literally making the GOLD in-game, WORTHLESS for them.

    I agree with Helsa and yall. I'm upset and feel pain for my friendss! They don't even want to 'play' anymore cuz its ..now supeerrr hard to advance without being able to trade!...

    and HOLD ON -...YOu LOCKED THE MAIL?..where the CROM BAS STORY LINE STARTS??!!!... HUUUHH??

    Seriously, like Nexon, how long/who did you use to write these decisions up? Including this one:

    "Entering Uladh/Iria Dungeons using Item Drops, or touching the statue
    If you are in a party as a party member, you can enter the dungeon with other players when they enter.
    You can enter a dungeon if you use a Unlimited Dungeon Pass."

    If you're STILL gonna let them RUN dungeons..........What is nexon worried they're gonna drop at the alter?? PERS KNUCKS to enter? Also gonna point out, if theyre so worried, they better worry too about END CHESTs mat drops rates! Is that STILL "gambling" So............................ Sadly. Looks like Nexon may have to remove Mabinogi entirely if they start nitpicking??? Or just well..ban all dungeon runs too?? But then...how to get mats? Cant even trade.. ..ok ..so System shut down. So stupid. OR.
    Just guarentee every thing 100% in Mabi haha. No more %'s for whatever drops / items :D Full coin system??? and ONE NPC shop for all mats with set prices then???
    Like a total government ownership. Hm.............. Food for thought????

    Does Nexon even read these?? You can still change things you know, Nexon!!!!

    I can gaurantee you that they do and maybe if we continue to voice our opinions on this matter they can make some positive changes. I even linked to a thread https://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/23230/please-let-ukrainians-play/p1 that proves we can accomplish a positive outcome. One that is more ideal than this.
    arlie1987
  • HarueHarue
    Mabinogi Rep: 810
    Posts: 3
    Member
    edited December 11, 2021
    Oh man.
    "Sal cannot use all forms of trade-related systems as per the law in Netherlands"
    So, how do I retrieve my items that I put on Auction House, and where are even trashcans in this game?

    Guess it's time to look for VPN solutions...
    Edit: Heard on Mabinogi Discord that VPN solutions don't even work.
    Had to make an account with different billing method before this update and trade my items to new account. I'm too late and screwed now.

    Truly unplayable.
    Quitting until further notice. Sad that it had to be this way.
    Also, Lootboxes ban does not equal any type of trade.
    arlie1987
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,205
    Posts: 8,866
    Member
    edited December 12, 2021
    If you guys have anything stuck on the auction house or in a personal shop bag or anything else like that, probably should submit a ticket so an admin can move those items back to regular storage. Better than nothing for now.

    Sigh...

    I will also say this for everyone outside of the US...your accounts are at risk. There's nothing FUD about that statement. One by one another country follows suit. I said this before and I will keep saying it, been saying it for years now. This could eventually impact you as more and more countries outside of the US pass their laws in the coming years. It's not a matter of if, it is a matter of when.

    Good example: Brazil is next. They are in the process of banning them. That was reported back in April of this year. Their "children's association" has filed a lawsuit and an inquiry has been launched to Brazil's government. What that means is; they are determining whether or not that stuff like this constitutes gambling - which is illegal in that country and they are threatening to fine companies 700k a day if they conclude it is gambling. Which they probably will because it most definitely is, lets not kid ourselves Nexon. It's money not going into Brazil government's pockets so it will more than likely be deemed illegal. That's gonna hurt the gaming industry really bad because Brazil is a huge part of the gaming community. I foresee a slew of "restructuring" happening again because gaming companies including Nexon REFUSE to change their business models. Rip.

    We can aptly conclude this is their fault and you guys have every right to be angry at them about it. They had all the time in the world to change their ways. Crippling the game beyond playability was not the correct solution, far from it. Their solution was to prevent financial damages from other countries and to also make you quit in order to solve that problem. Hell, it's probably is helping the $ervers too.

    The US is not entirely safe either. There have been attempts in legislation, thankfully those faded away and not much came of it. But with inflation, economy in shambles, the US government is hungry for money and they keep ever raising the debt ceiling. They will eventually come after companies that are deflecting funds away from where they want them to go. If Nexon loses the ability to sell us gambling products, we'll be right there with you soon.

    Prepare yourselves.
    arlie1987
  • SammiiieeeSammiiieee
    Mabinogi Rep: 130
    Posts: 3
    Member
    Please explain to me then why you've implemented different rules for maplestory and mabinogi. Mabinogi became unplayable for us, while in maplestory you can still trade and buy certain items. Why not do that for mabinogi as well?

    To me it just feels like you're not putting in the same effort for mabinogi as for maplestory because mabinogi has way less dutch players compared to the rest, and maplestory has a lot of dutch players. So you'd lose way less money wise. I get that you're a company and making money is the goal, but this is just unethical.

    There is literally no Dutch law that restricts us from trading in game items with in game currency. The law is to prevent kids from spending tons of money on gamble/chance items like gachapons and getting addicted to that/spending tons of money. We are still allowed to buy those items with in game currency from other players.

    Please explain to me how this decision was made while the law is literally not as strict as you make it to be. Just blocking gachapons was literally enough. Or putting up age restrictions.

    I've played this game for many years. I started in Europe and had to start all over in NA when you closed Europe and chose not to transfer our chars and only give a small compensation (less then half the money we spend on the game we got in nx to spend in NA).
    Now you chose to screw the dutch players over again, give us a few hours notice, and not even give any kind of compensation.

    These restrictions are nowhere near necessary and I please ask of you to consult experts and look over the restrictions again and change them. Me and all the other Dutch players are now just forced to play a extreme hardcore version of the game which is just no fun anymore.
    arlie1987
  • SammiiieeeSammiiieee
    Mabinogi Rep: 130
    Posts: 3
    Member
    Please explain to me then why you've implemented different rules for maplestory and mabinogi. Mabinogi became unplayable for us, while in maplestory you can still trade and buy certain items. Why not do that for mabinogi as well?

    To me it just feels like you're not putting in the same effort for mabinogi as for maplestory because mabinogi has way less dutch players compared to the rest, and maplestory has a lot of dutch players. So you'd lose way less money wise. I get that you're a company and making money is the goal, but this is just unethical.

    There is literally no Dutch law that restricts us from trading in game items with in game currency. The law is to prevent kids from spending tons of money on gamble/chance items like gachapons and getting addicted to that/spending tons of money. We are still allowed to buy those items with in game currency from other players.

    Please explain to me how this decision was made while the law is literally not as strict as you make it to be. Just blocking gachapons was literally enough. Or putting up age restrictions.

    I've played this game for many years. I started in Europe and had to start all over in NA when you closed Europe and chose not to transfer our chars and only give a small compensation (less then half the money we spend on the game we got in nx to spend in NA).
    Now you chose to screw the dutch players over again, give us a few hours notice, and not even give any kind of compensation.

    These restrictions are nowhere near necessary and I please ask of you to consult experts and look over the restrictions again and change them. Me and all the other Dutch players are now just forced to play a extreme hardcore version of the game which is just no fun anymore.
    arlie1987
  • SammiiieeeSammiiieee
    Mabinogi Rep: 130
    Posts: 3
    Member
    Also we can't even help friends anymore now with hunting for certain stuff as you cant drop keys for dungeon chests either.

    Which law says we aren't allowed to do that??

    Thank you for making this game a solo extreme hard mode game. For no reason at all.
    arlie1987
  • HabimaruHabimaru
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,420
    Posts: 749
    Member
    Unbelievable. Well, perhaps not, considering that it was already predicted/prophecied that world-wide insanity would come and be to the fore for a time and a time before any reason or semblance of freedom would ever again be seen on the planet.

    Considering that every country on earth is literally a corporation, simply buying out that country may have been a better idea, but, then again, they are all probably already owned by The Crown and other behind-the-scenes major world-players (Vanguard & BlackRock apparently owning literally almost every major corporation on earth, even bigger than Alphabet Inc, which owns Google & a number of other related entities).

    I don't know what kinds of «puppets» have been «installed» into the Netherlands government, but, obviously, they are not very sane... I have plenty of research/evidence pointing to benign-education being a far better and more-effective means of correcting and solving social-problems rather than imposing a whole bunches of harsh/complicated restrictions/punishments on any particular activity which isn't necessarily causing/inflicting any amount of injury/harm/suffering/damage upon others (person or property or otherwise).

    Also, as I see it, Erinn (the name of the universe said to exist in Mabinogi), is a whole entire other world, I mean, just imagine, what kind of lunacy that the inhabitants of Mars/Jupiter would look at you as when some earthly government-body starts trying to dictate how anybody coming out of some earthly land-mass starts trying to dictate to the population of Jupiter/Mars as to whether or not these earthlings are even allowed to do anything related to their planets.

    FURTHERMORE, I know enough about «Law» that, I can already see and automatically tell you that ALL of these «governments» and governmental-agencies/entities are engaged in and involved in FRAUD (particularly as it relates to the Cestui Que Trust system), but, rather than get all «complicated» and confuse everyone, I will provide a more simple example of «jurisdiction» fraud...

    Spoiler-Content : Jurisdictional-Fraud Example & ...stuff
    Example of Jurisdictional-FRAUD in the United States : Typically, you are told that, because you are physically located within the state or some particular county, that those LEOs claim to have jurisdiction over you, on the sole basis that either you are physically located there or are some sort of resident who lives upon the physical land-mass; HOW-EVER, if/when a U.S. cop falsely accuses you of some so-called crime or offense that you did not actually commit, and, the prosecutor lays all of these STATE-Statute charges against you (let's use those RCW codes as an example which come out of Washington state), and, you respond with the FEDERAL violations that THEY committed as your counter-claim, IF, for some reason you were DUMB ENOUGH to accept one of their Public-PRETENDERS (rather than learning the REAL «Law» for yourself), and, said Public-PRETENDER sees you using U.S. Code §§ 241-242 or other U.S.C.-references within your COUNTER-Documents, you will literally hear the Public-PRETENDER say that those Federal-Statues «do not apply» to this case, because, it is a «State» (i.e. : law-suit against you by the STATE-Entity). You MIGHT get lucky and come across a lawyer/attorney who is at least semi-knowledge-able will HONESTLY and TRUTHFULLY tell you that the City/State-Entities are all Incorporated (thus making them all Corporations), back when I was forced to start learning about all of these legal-crap in order to deal with the FRAUD of the RACKETEERING cops who kept on coming up with the MOST RIDICULOUS REASONS for pulling everybody over, and, handing out Traffic-Tickets to the whole entire population like they were throwing out Candy at a 4th of July Parade (such irony in a so-called «free» country... snicker).

    Wait, wait, now, hold up here, first of all, WHAT was the «basis» for «claiming jurisdiction» over you in the FIRST place by the STATE ? Because you were/are «located» within (or physically upon the land-mass) of the STATE ? Yet, here we now have a claim that the FEDERAL Statutes (referring to the United States), some-how do NOT Apply ? Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that, DESPITE being «physically located» in the United States (or what people typically think is in terms of the land-mass), that this «United States» so-called «laws» do NOT Apply ? So, explain to me then, HOW in the world, can I SIMULTANEOUSLY be «located within a State» and yet NOT located within the «United States» ? (Don't bother giving me a complicated response; I already know the answer, and, that is because these are CORPORATE-Entities, typically run for-profit via a prison-industrial-complex, which is a HUGE FRAUD [just like the BAR-Association which is essentially the entity that largely instigated this world-wide criminal-enterprise MARTIAL-LAW system globally])

    Anyway, I provide this example to illustrate a POINT, that being, the «claim of jurisdiction» over you for your physical-location is NOT based on any valid contractual-law, but, has been done through DECEIT, FRAUD, COERCION, and, THREATS. Each and every Country, err, I mean Corporation, I mean Country, oh, wait, all Countries are Corporations, has, for the most-part, very similar rules/regulations/Constitutions, only slightly differently worded sections, but, for the most part, for example, all U.S. States have their own Constitutions, all of which read almost the same way with the same kinds of sections and slight different variations on how each section is named/labeled, then there is the U.S. Constitution which can also be read along-side the Australian-Constitution, also showing their various similarities (not that the Australian-government currently acts in any manner that could even remotely be considered constitutional), and, should be very similar across every country on earth since ALL essentially follow a format/protocol that is under the Umbrella of UNIDROIT.

    Nexon may have started out wonderfully (maybe, or at least had made some seriously good/great decisions in the past in the middle of back when its reputation was less authoritarian-like), but, I was most-certainly disappointed to see them bow down to the threats and coercions of imposing state «tax» into on-line transactions, where-as even the very Messiah himself chooses (or at least chose to back when he was still actively reaching out to the world-scene) to simply tell those taxing extortionists to essentially «get lost»
    Why do businessmen seek to 'ask' plunderers how much they need prior to issuing a 'permit' to operate? Why do 'oil' companies and others all work for these plunderers and openly extort this 'fee' on their behalf prior to its delivery to the public? Are they paid a wage to so do, or are they all afraid? Why not deliver it honestly at their nett retail price to the community, and let the extortionist deal with each member of the community directly, for this way those as me that are not weak minded will tell the extortionist to 'get lost.'
    -Quoted from http://www.the-testament-of-truth.co.uk/truth/web/other6.htm#page_93

    But, truthfully, I don't care any more... sometimes I think I should just LET people «suffer» and, personally experience for themselves, that, even IF you follow EVERYTHING that any «taxing government» tells you to, that the «system» WILL «screw you over» in some way eventually; such as back when I had a PERFECT «Driving Record» and a HIGH Credit-Score and NO Criminal-History (not that anything which went into the records were even criminal since they were all in the categories of failure or refusal to pay since I was NOT going to pay ADDITIONAL money into them or the system after I had ALREADY PAID in order to PROVE that I was «legal» in EVERY way, mind you, which took the FULL amount of my FIRST ENTIRE PAY-CHEQUE, THEN what happened ? So, after I had PROVEN that I am ALL «Legal» to «Operate» here and there, I am told, well, instead of being made to pay the 700$US fine, I would just have to pay a 350$US Fine instead; like WHAT THE ****, ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS!? I am NOT going to «pay» into EXTORTIONISTS who FORCE me to «choose» between whether I have enough $$$ to put Fuel into my Car to be able to AFFORD to even GET to «work» AND being able to «feed» myself, amongst NUMEROUS other reasons for which ANY «reasonable» people would have simply told me to continue working hard and wished me luck with my success, NOT engage in the EXTORTION which is the «taxing» state/government-system), and, the first «court-case» I went through was FULL of FRAUD, considering that I gave that Public-PRETENDER MORE than enough evidence/information/reasons to EASILY have been able to get the case dismissed, BUT, he made NO EFFORT WHAT-SO-EVER to provide any «Defense» over the EXTORTIONIST charges that were being imposed upon me because of EXTREME LIFE-CIRCUMSTANCES back then (let's put it this way : NONE of you will have ANY IDEA what I had to go through unless you have experienced literally what it is like to live in the manner of a HARD-WORKING homeless-orphan with ONLY a cheap car for shelter, and, to KEEP THIS UP for at least few years in a row), where I worked my off to get back onto my feet (once again due to life-circumstances), but, NOOOOOOOO, you can't even have ONE ****ing DAY to try to get your **** straight without some ***hole cop pulling you over and writing tickets (like as IF I had the «time» to deal with that crap, considering that I was BUSY with 80+ hour work-weeks, whilst living in a car during BLIZZARD freaking conditions).

    Ironically, I learned about VanGuard and BlackRock, literally from women from the Netherlands who put together the information which answered the question as to who owns all of the Media-Companies around the world and as to why they always seem to pump out the exact same information world-wide, simultaneously, regardless of language/country; it's apparently because the «news» that they air is due to some sort of top-down-level decision-making which originates all the way up to VanGuard/BlackRock. DO you people ENJOY living and running a RAT-RACE ? «Even if you win the race; you're still a rat.» -Lily Tomlin
    arlie1987