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Problem with Moon Gates.

HelsaHelsa
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in Story Discussion
Admiral Owen lead a seaborne invasion of the Isle of Belfast because it was a pirate haven. Obviously, he was successful and this is why he's a big hero. But why did he need ships when they could have just stormed the army through the moon gates?

Comments

  • NegumikoNegumiko
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    Originally players would have to travel to a moon gate or mana tunnel to access it in the future. Since Belvast/Belfast was filled with pirates and fomors it may have been impossible for Owen to send a army directly to a moon gate they have never been to or seen before. I like to think moon gate travel is similar to Instant Transmission in DBZ. To use it you have to have a pretty good visual of where you are going or at the very least a strong energy signal you can easily identify from someone to lock onto. It just sounds to unrealistic to be able to be use a moon gate/mana tunnel to travel to a location you have never seen before.

    The Travelers Guide thing that lets us go anywhere we want could just be a magic item that already has the energy signature of every moon gate and mana tunnel recorded in it allowing players to easily anywhere with a little help. However this is probably exclusive to Milletians only so I doubt Owen could just march in there with a army using a moon gate.
    DDSN
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Negumiko wrote: »
    Originally players would have to travel to a moon gate or mana tunnel to access it in the future. Since Belvast/Belfast was filled with pirates and fomors it may have been impossible for Owen to send a army directly to a moon gate they have never been to or seen before. I like to think moon gate travel is similar to Instant Transmission in DBZ. To use it you have to have a pretty good visual of where you are going or at the very least a strong energy signal you can easily identify from someone to lock onto. It just sounds to unrealistic to be able to be use a moon gate/mana tunnel to travel to a location you have never seen before.

    The Travelers Guide thing that lets us go anywhere we want could just be a magic item that already has the energy signature of every moon gate and mana tunnel recorded in it allowing players to easily anywhere with a little help. However this is probably exclusive to Milletians only so I doubt Owen could just march in there with a army using a moon gate.

    It's easier to sneak one person in than many. Either you start with sneaking in one person, whom claims the gate, or you bribe someone either let the gate be claimed or carry someone through on a pet. That person brings someone else, on one of their pets. They step through, they step back immediately. Now you have more than one. They each do the same, and so on. In the "old" days, I think it was the mimic pet that had the record at three passengers, so you only need one quarter of the force to have the gate, with three quarters coming through on, say, mimics. At worst you only need half the force to have gate claimed.

    Remember, once the gate is claimed it's claimed. If the pirates had a squad of archers guarding the gate and could knock out someone before they return back through, that person just has to revive and the knowledge is kept. Once you have enough people to storm through to take out the gate guards. Then the remainng claiming of it by the army proceeds that much faster.

    You could plan ahead where people storm through and get knocked out and they keep coming through. Then at some point they ALL revive simultaneously overwhelming the defenders.
  • FragarachFragarach
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    edited August 26, 2022
    The moon gates are a modern invention. Remember the whole thing with Jabchiel, Mores and the battle of Mag Tuireadh? Belvast has only relatively recently been taken over by Owen, so unless those pirates were also great wizards, it was after Owens siege that the Belvast moon gates where created. Also, even on the off chance that the pirates somehow managed to enlist a group of wizards from the Aielach kingdom to make a moon gate for them, the moon gates only used to lead to pre-defined locations. Remember that toss away line they gave about further improvements "by wizards" when they updated moon gates to be active 24/7 and allowed you to choose your destination?

    Now the real headscratcher is how the hell were there moon gates in the sealed holy land of the alban knights?
    DDSNNegumiko
  • NegumikoNegumiko
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    Fragarach wrote: »
    The moon gates are a modern invention. Remember the whole thing with Jabchiel, Mores and the battle of Mag Tuireadh? Belvast has only relatively recently been taken over by Owen, so unless those pirates were also great wizards, it was after Owens siege that the Belvast moon gates where created. Also, even on the off chance that the pirates somehow managed to enlist a group of wizards from the Aielach kingdom to make a moon gate for them, the moon gates only used to lead to pre-defined locations. Remember that toss away line they gave about further improvements "by wizards" when they updated moon gates to be active 24/7 and allowed you to choose your destination?

    Now the real headscratcher is how the hell were there moon gates in the sealed holy land of the alban knights?

    Lymilark, Hymerark, and Jeamiderark were gods under command of Aton Cimeni. The Hymerark Church/Order of the Black Moon could have used the Altar of Doubhca a long time ago but on a much scale then when Sera used it causing only a few Ladeca stones to fall in the Belvast area. Maybe someone use a spell similar to Jabchiel's spell that made Ladeca stones crash. We may not know exactly how but it seems possible someone under the command of Aton Cimeni brought Ladeca stones to the Avalon area of Belvast/Belfast and could be the original creators of Moon Gates.

    Llywelyn blended in as a average knight and served Eirawen without her knowing about the Alban Knights. It seems possible older Alban Knights or any older followers of Aton Cimeni could have scattered over Erinn and suggested using the Ladeca stones Jabchiel made crash leading to the creation of more Moon Gates which would seem new anyone else in Erinn since they don't know about Avalon. Regardless I think the Moon Gates in Avalon had to be created by someone there long before Avalon was sealed.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Fragarach wrote: »
    The moon gates are a modern invention. Remember the whole thing with Jabchiel, Mores and the battle of Mag Tuireadh? Belvast has only relatively recently been taken over by Owen, ...

    Ah, okay but then Iria was colonized, from Uladh, before Belfast was pacified. Why wasn't at least one Moon Gate placed, say near the Quilla base camp mana gate, to allow easy connexion to the the Mana gate system?


  • FragarachFragarach
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    Helsa wrote: »

    Ah, okay but then Iria was colonized, from Uladh, before Belfast was pacified. Why wasn't at least one Moon Gate placed, say near the Quilla base camp mana gate, to allow easy connexion to the the Mana gate system?

    There is. Port Quilla Moon Gate. Doesnt seem to link to Uladh, but thats more of a game mechanic thing than a lore problem.

    Negumiko wrote: »

    Lymilark, Hymerark, and Jeamiderark were gods under command of Aton Cimeni. The Hymerark Church/Order of the Black Moon could have used the Altar of Doubhca a long time ago but on a much scale then when Sera used it causing only a few Ladeca stones to fall in the Belvast area. Maybe someone use a spell similar to Jabchiel's spell that made Ladeca stones crash. We may not know exactly how but it seems possible someone under the command of Aton Cimeni brought Ladeca stones to the Avalon area of Belvast/Belfast and could be the original creators of Moon Gates.

    There doesnt need to have been a previous moon stone spell cast. It was most likely just Jabchiel's spell, since he wasn't exactly aiming it, and the stones just flew all over the place. I think that was actually mentioned when they found the moon stone near Crom Bás. Also the alban knights were created in response to the rise of the other churches. According to their mythology, the Elder was a man who was contacted by Aton Cimeni when Aton saw that people were starting to worship the other gods (though according to Talvish. he was himself actually created by Aton Cimeni). They've always been a secretive organisation, so even though in g19 krystall mentioned that they were originally meant to have communicated with the other religious groups near the start, I doubt they would have invited the other churches into their holy land.
    Negumiko wrote: »
    Llywelyn blended in as a average knight and served Eirawen without her knowing about the Alban Knights. It seems possible older Alban Knights or any older followers of Aton Cimeni could have scattered over Erinn and suggested using the Ladeca stones Jabchiel made crash leading to the creation of more Moon Gates which would seem new anyone else in Erinn since they don't know about Avalon. Regardless I think the Moon Gates in Avalon had to be created by someone there long before Avalon was sealed.

    Yeah, they definitely would have to have been made before it was sealed, and that's the problem. It was sealed ages ago, and considering how moon gates worked back then, it wouldn't have made sense for the knights to have even wanted to create moon gates within that land, even if some stones had fallen from ladeca. There's also the big problem of the moon gates having those modern pillar things beside them, which were created by Proffesor J and have the insignia of Tara on them.

    Realistically its just a plot hole resulting from the devs needing a way of allowing players to fast travel, and lazily just deciding to go with moon gates.
  • FragarachFragarach
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    HAH! Just came up with the greatest excuse/explanation for every vague, or unexplainable thing in Mabinogi: Blame Hymerark!

    They literally used the feth fiadha to send their minions to every place and point in time in order to push our character towards the conclusion of g25. So every convenient thing and feature that doesn't make sense? BAM! Hymerark!
    Lazy, but it works.
    DDSN
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited August 27, 2022
    Fragarach wrote: »
    There is. Port Quilla Moon Gate. Doesnt seem to link to Uladh, but thats more of a game mechanic thing than a lore problem.
    ...
    Realistically its just a plot hole resulting from the devs needing a way of allowing players to fast travel, and lazily just deciding to go with moon gates.

    And how! The map refers to the Port Quilla Moon Gate as a Mana Tunnel. So while it looks like a Moon Gate it does not quack like one. But also is there any canonical explanation for why either type of gate can't be used for commercing?

    Minimap_Tutorial_Area_%28Rano%29.png

    Briefly back to the Belfast Isle problem, like Moon Gates, continent warp could have been used to teleport an army in as well.
  • FragarachFragarach
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    edited August 27, 2022
    Canonical reasons? Nope. Then again, we don't even know how moon gates work. There could be some restriction with them only transporting living things, and whatever they're wearing(you know, for modesty reasons). I mean imagine if a bunch of rowdy kids thought it would be funny to sit at a moon gate and keep flinging random crap into it, or if the people of Tir Chonaill decided to dump all their rubbish into the local moon gate, because they don't care about the people to the south. I'm pretty sure you can't just drag wagons worth of stuff into a moongate, but then again that wouldnt stop the commerce backpack from working.

    As for the continent warp thing, its never even been talked about properly. It's entirely a game mechanic thing. If you look at the symbol for it though, its a goddess feather, which means there might be some divine, or at least magical aspect to it. Since its a action we can use as opposed to an actual item, I've always presumed it was some kind of Milletian thing. You know, like how we can just ditch the world whenever we feel like it to return to the Soul Stream. Also, way back we weren't even able to continent warp until we first visited Iria, so that sort of suggests our ability to leave and re-enter the world both normally and when rebirthing, may be tied to it.

    Hell "Canonically" we can see the names above the heads of all characters, because its all a video game but the npcs just dont know it, and our characters are just fragments of our soul that have been separated from us and given a life of their own through the added soul phenomenon, and pulled into this game world because of Hymerark's summoning.

    ^Thats not headcannon, this game is literally that mad.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited August 27, 2022
    Fragarach wrote: »
    Canonical reasons? Nope. Then again, we don't even know how moon gates work. There could be some restriction with them only transporting living things, and whatever they're wearing(you know, for modesty reasons). I mean imagine if a bunch of rowdy kids thought it would be funny to sit at a moon gate and keep flinging random crap into it, or if the people of Tir Chonaill decided to dump all their rubbish into the local moon gate, because they don't care about the people to the south. I'm pretty sure you can't just drag wagons worth of stuff into a moongate, but then again that wouldnt stop the commerce backpack from working.
    As for the continent warp thing,
    its never even been talked about properly. It's entirely a game mechanic thing. If you look at the symbol for it though, its a goddess feather, which means there might be some divine, or at least magical aspect to it. Since its a action we can use as opposed to an actual item,
    I've always presumed it was some kind of Milletian thing.
    You know, like how we can just ditch the world whenever we feel like it to return to the Soul Stream. Also, way back we weren't even able to continent warp until we first visited Iria, so that sort of suggests our ability to leave and re-enter the world both normally and when rebirthing, may be tied to it.

    It's been a long time, for me, but doesn't Castanea, for Elves, and, I think it's Weide, for giants, say something about it when new Irian characters are just starting out? Non-milletians seem to be aware of it. Of course, this doesn't mean that they have it but it doesn't mean that they don't either. I suppose one could say that because Admiral Owen had to use ships that therefore only the Milletian, whom hadn't showed up yet, can continent warp but that strikes me as weak; I mean Admiral Owen could have just had tunnel vision when making his plans. That reminds me, regarding "The Milletian": is the player supposed to be the only one and all the other players, from the player's point of view, are just well accomplished non-milletians or something?
    Fragarach wrote: »
    Hell "Canonically" we can see the names above the heads of all characters,
    because its all a video game
    but the npcs just dont know it
    , and our characters are just fragments of our soul that have been separated from us and given a life of their own through the added soul phenomenon, and pulled into this game world because of Hymerark's summoning.

    ^Thats not headcannon, this game is literally that mad.

    Doesn't Ferghus say something about "The Lucky" title over ones head if you are wearing it when he doesn't mess up?

  • FragarachFragarach
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    Yeah, Ferghus also talks about the mini-map and Aliisa calls you by name when you first meet her, with her responding to your question of how she knows with "it's above your head, silly!". There's loads of that in this game, but they all seem to act like that's normal, and wonder why you'd find that peculiar. To them that's just life, so they probably don't find anything strange about it. Even the fact that they repeat the same dialogue is explained by Tarlach when discussing the effects of Tir na nÓg on them. Even if they were to quesiton the validity of the world they're living in, they'd probably just write off all the strangeness as a by product of the Tir na nÓg effect.

    Its been a long time for me as well, but I also remember the elves and giants mentioning something about continent warp, which is why I tactfully said "talked about properly" lol. I think it was literally just a case of them saying how to do it. I'm entirely sure its a milletian thing though, otherwise all forms of transport would be almost entirely redundant lore wise. If everyone in the world could just teleport ~2 times a day, it would be kind of mad. Infact when you really think about it, whats stopping our characters from just leaving and re-entering the world anywhere? The only answer I can think of other than "game balance" is that it might be an unconscious thing that we can guide consciously, like: we think of Iria and we appear where we feel most familiar with. Which is why its Quila for human characters as its the first place we arrive at, and Vales and Falia for the giants and elves. Also why we warp back to Tir Chonaill, until we get to Dunbarton that is.

    As for the whole milletian thing, nah there's loads of milletians, we weren't even close to being one of the first. Tarlach was doing whole studies on them before we even arrived. It's also how the npcs seem to know so much about us. The reason why our character is referred to as THE milletian, is because we are meant to be the one consistently saving the world, while the others are just doing general milletian things, like afking in dunbarton with the latest gachapon fashion. Of course, all of us being THE milletian is kind of a problem, but then again there was that whole thing during Chapter 7 about all the different timelines and attempts at getting a particular milletian to progress from g1 to g25. So lore wise, all the milletians you see around you are basically Hymerark's failed attempts at creating THE milletian, except for the ones that have completed all 7 Chapters. Those ones....eh...dont know. Probably alternate versions of yourself, or some such sci fi nonsense.
    DDSN
  • DDSNDDSN
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    Guild Wars 2 does a similar thing for the player character, everyone is technically the "Pact Commander", the main character of the narrative of the story, but while you're out in the open world, the other player characters are just random heroes who just happen to be helping you in PvE environments, despite participating in the same story content.

    It's just a way to make your own character seem more important in your own perspective, sure, other Milletians exist but in the story YOU'RE the one who went through all the various Generation story content, others could be just doing dungeons or crafting or whatever else.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Fragarach wrote: »
    Yeah, Ferghus also talks about the mini-map and Aliisa calls you by name when you first meet her, with her responding to your question of how she knows with "it's above your head, silly!". There's loads of that in this game, but they all seem to act like that's normal, and wonder why you'd find that peculiar. To them that's just life, so they probably don't find anything strange about it. Even the fact that they repeat the same dialogue is explained by Tarlach when discussing the effects of Tir na nÓg on them. Even if they were to quesiton the validity of the world they're living in, they'd probably just write off all the strangeness as a by product of the Tir na nÓg effect.

    Its been a long time for me as well, but I also remember the elves and giants mentioning something
    about continent warp,
    which is why I tactfully said "talked about properly" lol. I think it was literally just a case of them saying how to do it.
    I'm entirely sure its a milletian thing
    though, otherwise all forms of transport would be almost entirely redundant lore wise. If everyone in the world could just teleport ~2 times a day, it would be kind of mad. Infact when you really think about it, whats stopping our characters from just leaving and re-entering the world anywhere? The only answer I can think of other than "game balance" is that it might be an unconscious thing that we can guide consciously, like: we think of Iria and we appear where we feel most familiar with. Which is why its Quila for human characters as its the first place we arrive at, and Vales and Falia for the giants and elves. Also why we warp back to Tir Chonaill, until we get to Dunbarton that is.
    As for the whole milletian thing, nah there's loads of milletians, we weren't even close to being one of the first
    . Tarlach was doing whole studies on them before we even arrived. It's also how the npcs seem to know so much about us. The reason why our character is referred to as THE milletian, is because we are meant to be the one consistently saving the world, while the others are just doing general milletian things, like afking in dunbarton with the latest gachapon fashion. Of course, all of us being THE milletian is kind of a problem, but then again there was that whole thing during Chapter 7 about all the different timelines and attempts at getting a particular milletian to progress from g1 to g25. So lore wise, all the milletians you see around you are basically Hymerark's failed attempts at creating THE milletian, except for the ones that have completed all 7 Chapters. Those ones....eh...dont know. Probably alternate versions of yourself, or some such sci fi nonsense.

    Okay then all those milletian's could have been used to teleport an army in. It's as you said before about QoL changes playing hob with canon.
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    Spawn camping. The pirates could guard the Moon Gate and attack anyone who came through.
    DDSN
  • FragarachFragarach
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    edited August 29, 2022
    I've already mentioned that the moon gates were made afterwards, but I think Helsa was referring to the milletians using continent warp to teleport other people in. The problem with that is you can only continent warp yourself. Even if you could carry someone else across, I doubt that Owen would have been able to enlist a bunch of milletians to do so. We may not be the first milletian, but the milletians are still relatively recent-ish to the world. Could have been before a load of milletians showed up. Also there was a general lack of knowledge around the milletians back then from the tuatha dé danann (hell there still is), and there would probably be a mix of fear and uncertainty around us strange new weirdoes, so even if there were some available I dont know if Owen, or perhaps more importantly his soldiers would work with the milletians, if they even knew they existed back then. Remember, Tarlach claimed to be the first person to do a study on this "new" race. He also claimed we shared similarities with the fomor and animals of this land, so that in itself might have scared off some people from interacting with the milletians. We also dont know when the siege of belvast took place exactly, so even though we know its relatively recently, it could easily have been before milletians were "discovered."
  • HelsaHelsa
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Spawn camping. The pirates could guard the Moon Gate and attack anyone who came through.

    Sure, but as they pile up, they wait to revive so all do it at once and overwhelm the campers.
    Fragarach wrote: »
    I've already mentioned that the moon gates were made afterwards, but I think Helsa was referring to the milletians using continent warp to teleport other people in. The problem with that is you can only continent warp yourself. Even if you could carry someone else across, I doubt that Owen would have been able to enlist a bunch of milletians to do so. We may not be the first milletian, but the milletians are still relatively recent-ish to the world. Could have been before a load of milletians showed up. Also there was a general lack of knowledge around the milletians back then from the tuatha dé danann (hell there still is), and there would probably be a mix of fear and uncertainty around us strange new weirdoes, so even if there were some available I dont know if Owen, or perhaps more importantly his soldiers would work with the milletians, if they even knew they existed back then. Remember, Tarlach claimed to be the first person to do a study on this "new" race. He also claimed we shared similarities with the fomor and animals of this land, so that in itself might have scared off some people from interacting with the milletians. We also dont know when the siege of belvast took place exactly, so even though we know its relatively recently, it could easily have been before milletians were "discovered."

    Really? I thought you could continent warp someone with you if they are on your pet while you are not.
  • FragarachFragarach
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    Helsa wrote: »

    Really? I thought you could continent warp someone with you if they are on your pet while you are not.

    I suspected you were going to bring that up which is why I wrote everything after "Even if you could carry someone else across..."

    Also, if were going that game-y when it comes to lore, than I could argue that nexon probably hadnt added pets to the web store at that stage for milletians to purchase. This reminds me of a post I saw once on this forum where someone was complaining about how despite being a goddess, Morrighan could literally be defeated by any noob. Their argument: that one time we got to rp as her she only had 2 skills.


  • HelsaHelsa
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    Fragarach wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »

    Really? I thought you could continent warp someone with you if they are on your pet while you are not.

    I suspected you were going to bring that up which is why I wrote everything after "Even if you could carry someone else across..."

    Also, if were going that game-y when it comes to lore, than I could argue that nexon probably hadnt added pets to the web store at that stage for milletians to purchase. This reminds me of a post I saw once on this forum where someone was complaining about how despite being a goddess, Morrighan could literally be defeated by any noob. Their argument: that one time we got to rp as her she only had 2 skills.

    Okay, so they could then. As for recruitment it doesn't have to be up to Owen alone but rather the Uladh states. "Going game-y" is part of the discussion such as bring up moon gates acting differently in earlier generations and so on, in fact it's why threads of this type exist.
  • FragarachFragarach
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    There was lore explanations for the changes to the moon gates, as flimsy as they were, unlike whats obviously an exploit. Regardless, my previous points still stand. Also, one commander wouldn't have been walking around personally asking everyone to join him, but the Aileach Kingdom would have encountered the same problems. The main one being they probably weren't aware that the milletians existed back then. Hell, even if the milletians were starting to poke their heads up, how would you go about recruiting them? It's not like you could conscript them, or force them to do anything they dont feel like doing. So it would literally be a case of just hoping there's some generous milletian who feels like getting involved in a war. Even if they could find one, which considering we're known as THE milletian since we take an active interest in the tuatha de danann unlike most, they wouldnt have been able to continent warp to belvast as they hadnt reached it yet. No ships had managed to get past the pirate's, which is why Owen used hot air balloons. Apparently he took the island in 3 days on his first attempt. He landed his army, fought for a few days, and it was over. So even if there were milletians chilling in Erinn at the time, its not as if he'd need them.
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    Helsa wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Spawn camping. The pirates could guard the Moon Gate and attack anyone who came through.

    Sure, but as they pile up, they wait to revive so all do it at once and overwhelm the campers.

    Only milletians can do that though, and as others stated, there probably weren't that many in Erinn yet.