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The Blacksmithing Rant

XiokunXiokun
Mabinogi Rep: 11,100
Posts: 887
Member
edited May 7, 2017 in General Chat
Blacksmithing alone for a while, to go rank and do other things, I decided to come back to it. I felt that after ranking up synthesis and being able to duplicate a lot of the needed ores, and gathering loads of fine and finest leathers, I would be ready. Yes, maybe a few braids and tough string here and there but I can make that. What recently set me over my edge was reading this very well developed guide about ranking blacksmithing.

-link removed-

I'm rank 9 Blacksmithing right now, and the fact that I'm required to go grind oodles of monsters for not only the manuals, but the items to finish armor, really puts me off. The exp per point in blacksmithing is far too low for the amount of effort taken to get the materials and the money it would take to get those materials if you really couldn't find it yourself is even worse, granted you find them on sale. The blacksmithing skill is far too arduous and I feel it should be changed, not only to be easier, but to be more rewarding.

Blacksmithing has been such a neglected talent with all these gachapons dropping weapons that should be blacksmithed and NEVER dropping Blacksmithing Manuals! The only time blacksmithing has been brought about recently is with this 'rad new idea' of banding the entire server together to all hunt for materials in a super hard dungeon with a HORRID drop rate JUST to make one shiny pair of greaves or gauntlets so the richest player out of all of them can sell them with a party add of 300m a/w! That's insane!

Furthermore on my rant, why is everything so directed towards humans with the things you have to make? I understand blacksmithing was made long before there were giants and elves, but how many years has it been? There should have been more items added for those races. Better yet, uni-gender armors. If they have already, they must be in production gachas, which haven't been released again in forever! They really should be to increase the incentive to rank Blacksmithing. Or at least stop adding all these new weapons and just add new blacksmith manuals.

*WITH MATERIALS THAT CAN BE OBTAINED EASILY.*

I'm just mainly upset with the fact instead of being a really useful skill to rank, it's become more of a skill I want off my bucket list because I have this small, slim sliver of faith that blacksmithing will eventually be revamped, along with many other life talents. This was probably really all over the place but I wanted to get all my feelings out and see if anyone felt this same frustration with blacksmithing like I have.
WolfandWolfGoldtiger01
  1. What is your feelings with Blacksmithing?58 votes
    1. It's been neglected over the years and deserves to be fixed.
       69% (40 votes)
    2. Blacksmithing is fine and the requirements are fair.
       12% (7 votes)
    3. lol i just do it for the stats haha
       19% (11 votes)

Comments

  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,900
    Posts: 786
    Member
    When I joined ages ago (shortly before G3 came out), I chose to focus attention on smithing as I had seen a lot of players making good money off of hetero kite shields and such (ahhhh back when they were worth something, lol). I made two mistakes: 1. not realizing how long it would take just to get measly training points 2. being too stubborn to give up for my own good.

    To this day, I am still working on smithing. And, tbh, the only reason I've made it past rank 9 to rank 3 is because of training seals (I think there was a limit to my stubbornness, lol). I'm vaguely disappointed that you can't make items with your signature on a consistent rate.

    I would LOVE for smithing to be upgraded, especially with new (and easier to obtain) manuals.
    XiokunGoldtiger01
  • NearlyNearly
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,355
    Posts: 104
    Member
    We definetly need to have a revamp on the production skills as well as have more manuals purchasable in shops. Another production gacha would also be welcomed since I really don't remember the last time we had one.
    Goldtiger01
  • GreaGrea
    Mabinogi Rep: 855
    Posts: 44
    Member
    Nearly wrote: »
    Another production gacha would also be welcomed since I really don't remember the last time we had one.

    Believe it was in 2012, but could be wrong. I do recall that quite a bit of the items in that gacha were obtainable from NPCs, manuals and patterns included. Could anyone else verify this, in case anyway?
  • ShouKShouK
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,735
    Posts: 824
    Member
    edited May 7, 2017
    Isnt the only manual that needs to be hunted is that kite shield or somethinng? You can just save yourself the trouble and advertise B>manual for less than 200k. It took me less than a day to buy all the required manuals that can only be obtained from monster drops because apparently many players hoard them. I later found the same manuals for like 10k AFTER I'm done with blacksmithing lol

    As someone who's already finished ranking blacksmith, I would really hate it if the ly nerfed the requirements but I do agree that it needs to be given more incentive for ranking it. But tbh, I saw a lot of people making bank by crafting CRKs.
  • lidiyalidiya
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,325
    Posts: 335
    Member
    Nearly wrote: »
    We definetly need to have a revamp on the production skills as well as have more manuals purchasable in shops. Another production gacha would also be welcomed since I really don't remember the last time we had one.

    In all honesty Blacksmithing in this game needs to be completely scrapped, and remade from scratch.
    The training you get for making an item is insanely low, and has virtually no payout for time, and currency invested.
    I've played many MMO's that have crafting in the game this game, and blacksmithing in particular is one of the worst I've seen implemented period.
    TwelieWolfandWolf
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,900
    Posts: 786
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    Liyeta wrote: »
    ShouK wrote: »
    Isnt the only manual that needs to be hunted is that kite shield or somethinng? You can just save yourself the trouble and advertise B>manual for less than 200k. It took me less than a day to buy all the required manuals that can only be obtained from monster drops because apparently many players hoard them. I later found the same manuals for like 10k AFTER I'm done with blacksmithing lol

    As someone who's already finished ranking blacksmith, I would really hate it if the ly nerfed the requirements but I do agree that it needs to be given more incentive for ranking it. But tbh, I saw a lot of people making bank by crafting CRKs.

    This.

    Blacksmith is fine. Though if you want faster results, just buy blacksmith training pots or manual from other player.

    I think the last time blacksmith training pots were sold was back in the SAO event in 2014. I have not seen them since. Training seals would have to work instead.
  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,690
    Posts: 107
    Member
    Isn't rank 9 the rank where blacksmithing becomes harder to rank? Fairly sure that's when the part time job ends. Whenever I think about how difficult blacksmithing is, I imagine the first people that went up to rank 1 without training pots, talents, ect. That must have been a nightmare.

    Humans were the first race, way before giants and elves, that's why blacksmithing has more human-ish junk.
  • DarknessreyDarknessrey
    Mabinogi Rep: 800
    Posts: 4
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    Blacksmithing just needs a full re-haul, also tailoring to some extent, and bringing back the production gacha would be nice.
  • XiokunXiokun
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,100
    Posts: 887
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    Liyeta wrote: »
    Blacksmith is fine. Though if you want faster results, just buy blacksmith training pots or manual from other player.

    Ohohohoh, believe me, I would drop 10m just for blacksmithing training pots. I would drop a whole 80 dollars just for blacksmithing training pots, but noooooooooooooo, out of ALL THE TRAINING POTS MABINOGI DECIDES TO RELEASE, they don't release blacksmithing training pots again. It drives me up the wall.
    lidiya wrote: »
    In all honesty Blacksmithing in this game needs to be completely scrapped, and remade from scratch.
    The training you get for making an item is insanely low, and has virtually no payout for time, and currency invested.
    I've played many MMO's that have crafting in the game this game, and blacksmithing in particular is one of the worst I've seen implemented period.

    Exactly. See, I wouldn't be complaining at all had there been a lot more blacksmithing manuals not only for training a tad easier, but for actually usuage. But unfortunately this isn't the case. There's no reason that there isn't more blacksmithing manuals, other than a handful, that aren't rank 1 and are pretty nice to make. I wouldn't be upset about having to invest time and gold for blacksmithing had I'd known people, even before I hit rank 1, would buy at least SOME of my things so I could get some of the money I invested into blacksmithing back.


    Also, for those who ranked blacksmithing to 1 already and don't want blacksmithing fixed because they don't want all their hard work being for nothing, I understand. I never wanted ninja training potions because I grinded ninja and mastered it without the huge 2x ninja events. I only used tweleve of those one 10 minute 2x ninja pots over the span of ALL of my training. It hurt to see all these people just buy their way out of the grinding and then laugh at me for not doing the same, even though I wasn't here for training potions. But at the same time, after a while I understood because that training was hellish after a while.
    Though back to Blacksmithing, my idea to reward the ones who already have Rank 1 Blacksmithing is to give them all nice blacksmithing manuals someone doesn't have to break their back over to get the materials for. Imagine, going to Gilmore of Fleta and buying manuals for say BDK's, RKA's, Beam Swords, or things like that. The manuals wouldn't be disgustingly cheap, and the items wouldn't be that baby easy to find, but something so that those with R1 Blacksmithing can make a lot of money and those who want money can work on blacksmithing.

    SirRyu wrote: »
    Humans were the first race, way before giants and elves, that's why blacksmithing has more human-ish junk.

    I understand that and even noted it in the beginning. Though, it's been many many many years since blacksmithing has been released, so I feel there's no reason blacksmithing, as well as tailoring, should be so human sided still. :(
    WolfandWolf
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,900
    Posts: 786
    Member
    Xiokun wrote: »
    Liyeta wrote: »
    Blacksmith is fine. Though if you want faster results, just buy blacksmith training pots or manual from other player.

    Ohohohoh, believe me, I would drop 10m just for blacksmithing training pots. I would drop a whole 80 dollars just for blacksmithing training pots, but noooooooooooooo, out of ALL THE TRAINING POTS MABINOGI DECIDES TO RELEASE, they don't release blacksmithing training pots again. It drives me up the wall.
    lidiya wrote: »
    In all honesty Blacksmithing in this game needs to be completely scrapped, and remade from scratch.
    The training you get for making an item is insanely low, and has virtually no payout for time, and currency invested.
    I've played many MMO's that have crafting in the game this game, and blacksmithing in particular is one of the worst I've seen implemented period.

    Exactly. See, I wouldn't be complaining at all had there been a lot more blacksmithing manuals not only for training a tad easier, but for actually usuage. But unfortunately this isn't the case. There's no reason that there isn't more blacksmithing manuals, other than a handful, that aren't rank 1 and are pretty nice to make. I wouldn't be upset about having to invest time and gold for blacksmithing had I'd known people, even before I hit rank 1, would buy at least SOME of my things so I could get some of the money I invested into blacksmithing back.


    Also, for those who ranked blacksmithing to 1 already and don't want blacksmithing fixed because they don't want all their hard work being for nothing, I understand. I never wanted ninja training potions because I grinded ninja and mastered it without the huge 2x ninja events. I only used tweleve of those one 10 minute 2x ninja pots over the span of ALL of my training. It hurt to see all these people just buy their way out of the grinding and then laugh at me for not doing the same, even though I wasn't here for training potions. But at the same time, after a while I understood because that training was hellish after a while.
    Though back to Blacksmithing, my idea to reward the ones who already have Rank 1 Blacksmithing is to give them all nice blacksmithing manuals someone doesn't have to break their back over to get the materials for. Imagine, going to Gilmore of Fleta and buying manuals for say BDK's, RKA's, Beam Swords, or things like that. The manuals wouldn't be disgustingly cheap, and the items wouldn't be that baby easy to find, but something so that those with R1 Blacksmithing can make a lot of money and those who want money can work on blacksmithing.

    SirRyu wrote: »
    Humans were the first race, way before giants and elves, that's why blacksmithing has more human-ish junk.

    I understand that and even noted it in the beginning. Though, it's been many many many years since blacksmithing has been released, so I feel there's no reason blacksmithing, as well as tailoring, should be so human sided still. :(

    Xiokun, you took the words right out of my mouth ~ <3
    This. All of this. Yes.
  • MarithMarith
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,005
    Posts: 122
    Member
    An important adjustment to make blacksmithing training easier (You know, other than the AP training and current level boosts that will make things MUCH easier for certain life talents) would be access to manuals of appropriate ranks. There are no reasonably obtainable armor manuals of ranks 3 and 2. Meaning that from rank 5, unless you have some birnam or thames manuals packed away, you have to craft dustin armor. That's combined with a low success rate even with patron and other bonuses, which leads to a lot of wasted materials and manual uses. Don't forget that you can't frag Dustin for some inconceivable reason, and no one's really clamoring to buy them these days, so you end up with a pile of dustins you don't know what to do with.


    I don't really mind if blacksmithing becomes easier to rank, so long as its useful. Aside from the occasional celtic weapon that pops up, or if you're someone who buys materials and crafts the rarer items for profit, there's not a lot of incentive to actually use blacksmithing once it's rank 1.
    Xiokun
  • MaiaMaia
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,195
    Posts: 903
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    edited May 8, 2017
    Just train the skill during double rainbow with the appropriate talent and use a 2x potion (one of the 1 day ones). Isn't that like 8x training which isn't even that difficult to get? If you're incredibly lazy, you can just use brionac and AP to train the skill or farm adventure seals for training seals. None of which is really that expensive (just time consuming). It's an MMO, the hardest stuff is always super grindy in MMO's. Honestly, smithing has gotten so much easier with talents, rainbows, potions, fragmenting, and plenty of events which give materials. I think when I got around to training smithing it took like a week to get rank 1. It honestly was a lot less grindy than, say, enchant assuming you're grinding the skills yourself and not just paying your way through it.

    Now if someone were to say that blacksmiths/tailors/etc. should be able to repair your equipment at a set % rate per rank without a fee (or with less fee) than I'd say yeah let's do that to make it more attractive.
  • XiokunXiokun
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,100
    Posts: 887
    Member
    Maia wrote: »
    Just train the skill during double rainbow with the appropriate talent and use a 2x potion (one of the 1 day ones). Isn't that like 8x training which isn't even that difficult to get? If you're incredibly lazy, you can just use brionac and AP to train the skill or farm adventure seals for training seals. None of which is really that expensive (just time consuming). It's an MMO, the hardest stuff is always super grindy in MMO's. Honestly, smithing has gotten so much easier with talents, rainbows, potions, fragmenting, and plenty of events which give materials. I think when I got around to training smithing it took like a week to get rank 1. It honestly was a lot less grindy than, say, enchant assuming you're grinding the skills yourself and not just paying your way through it.

    Now if someone were to say that blacksmiths/tailors/etc. should be able to repair your equipment at a set % rate per rank without a fee (or with less fee) than I'd say yeah let's do that to make it more attractive.

    The sad part is, I've done 8x training quite a bit during the summer event some time ago. And even with it, it felt tedious to do. Far more tedious than it SHOULD be. Rank 9 Blacksmithing shouldn't be as grindy as Rank 4 Tailoring. I had a far more easier time with Tailoring than blacksmithing somehow, which had the same exact requirements! It doesn't make any sense. If it was as simple as you said, I wouldn't have made this thread, and I would have had blacksmith to Rank 1 already. Heck, a lot of people I would have talk to would all have Rank 1 Blacksmithing if that was the case.

    I will admit though, Blacksmithing is not the grindiest skill in the Mabinogi book. Hillwen Engineering as far grindier, and so is shadow cloak at Rank 2. With, what? 0.02 training a minute if you keep pressing the button? The reason blacksmithing upsets me most is that it's not just a matter of how much of an attention span you can put into it. It's the fact you have to rely on horrid RNG, invest loads of gold per 30 attempts, and then at the end of the day, what do you get? Congratulations! You get to say you ranked blacksmithing to R1. Now get going on them Celtic Weapons and Rabbie Phanstam stuff! :V But that's it! You might make a mil here and there every so often, but that's about it. It's not a skill you can make a living out of like new players assume it can be. And about 'other MMOs', at least in those MMOs, Blacksmithing is a lot more useful and able to be used as a profession than in here where all the armor and weapons you WANT to make is tossed from gachas so much that people forget you can blacksmith them.

    (PS: I heard in a few threads some time ago Ninja was getting an exp fix on it's training, and I didn't see anyone saying no to fixing the exp. Blacksmithing shouldn't be any different in my eyes.)
    WolfandWolf
  • Goldtiger01Goldtiger01
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,515
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    edited May 8, 2017
    Production in Mabinogi is, in my opinion, one of the features that makes Mabinogi so unique. You can be fighting tons of gods in one generation, and soon after be playing life skill minigames and trying to rank up your life skills to make better equipment. I know this is nothing new, but it definitely makes Mabinogi much more interesting. The problem is the grind with it.
    They DEFINITELY need to fix training point requirements with ALL LIFE SKILLS. Blacksmithing is not the only life skill where the effort required to gather materials =/= the training points rewarded. Magic Craft, Hillwen Engineering, Weaving, Tailoring (a bit), Potion Making, etc is so unbalanced that it's just another "collect an insane amount of ingredients and make x y many times and hope that you succeed on every attempt" that's absurd. I'm not saying to make life skills ezpz to rank up, but to make them more reasonable.

    Either they fix the training system with life skills or just add training potions for EVERY LIFE SKILL...or maybe even the ability to get 4x training xp without the need of an event.
    They also definitely need to add a talent for Hillwen Engineering and Magic Craft. The only people I can see disagreeing with this is those who already have the skill rank 1...
    Xiokun
  • XiokunXiokun
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,100
    Posts: 887
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    Production in Mabinogi is, in my opinion, one of the features that makes Mabinogi so unique. You can be fighting tons of gods in one generation, and soon after be playing life skill minigames and trying to rank up your life skills to make better equipment. I know this is nothing new, but it definitely makes Mabinogi much more interesting. The problem is the grind with it.
    They DEFINITELY need to fix training point requirements with ALL LIFE SKILLS. Blacksmithing is not the only life skill where the effort required to gather materials =/= the training points rewarded. Magic Craft, Hillwen Engineering, Weaving, Tailoring (a bit), Potion Making, etc is so unbalanced that it's just another "collect an insane amount of ingredients and make x y many times and hope that you succeed on every attempt" that's absurd. I'm not saying to make life skills ezpz to rank up, but to make them more reasonable.

    Either they fix the training system with life skills or just add training potions for EVERY LIFE SKILL...or maybe even the ability to get 4x training xp without the need of an event.
    They also definitely need to add a talent for Hillwen Engineering and Magic Craft. The only people I can see disagreeing with this is those who already have the skill rank 1...

    Thanks for agreeing with me. It made me have hope to see those renovations with combat a year ago. I hoped that they'd immediately start on life talents next but it doesn't seem to be the case. At least not yet. I hope that they'll do a rehaul and even make it so that life talents become the new thing!

    ANOTHER good idea I had in the back of my head is if they stopped selling cred's reforges in the webshop, (Still sell the normal ones though), and stop making flash sales of those 'amazing' reforges and 'reforge +' stuff, and have people craft them with magic craft! I feel that'd be a great idea. I mean, people can make really cool magic powder and red / blue upgrade stones now with it, right? I feel that'd be the next step.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,240
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    edited May 8, 2017
    I can understand why people would want blacksmith to be somewhat more exclusive than combat skills - life skills should be a way of life, after all. The experience and the means of production (and thus the products) are cheapened if everyone has rank 1 blacksmithing. However, keeping the skill a grindfest is not the way to keep it in demand. As some people have mentioned, that particular limit is obsolete, since we now have ways to get around it (skill training seals, X times training events). It couldn't have lasted anyway; no matter how grindy it is, more people will obtain it eventually.

    Having said that, I agree with the people who say that the only change necessary to make it easier is to make more blacksmithing manuals available in game. It doesn't make sense that entire ranks are just unavailable because they were only released in a gachapon, and this change alone would make it much less of a chore (potentially).

    As for how to keep it in demand, you'd need to tie blacksmithing to other requirements, like NPC intimacy/PTJs, Renown, or active GM status. Make it something that players have to build up and maintain, kind of like PTJ status. You want it to be demanding enough that most people won't just keep it up for no reason, but accessible enough that most anyone could do it if they wanted to (provided they have the corresponding skill rank). Perks could be access to rare or even exclusive manuals, special materials, or buffs that increase success rate or quality, maybe once an in-game day. Heck, maybe NPCs could even buy some crafted items off players to 'sell' in their shops, as long as they're at or above a certain quality.

    I think it'd be neat if crafting could actually be a way of playing again, instead of just another thing to grind once (usually more for stats than any actual use of the skills themselves) and forget about.

    ...Felt like I should add this: The reason I support leaving life skills like blacksmithing (but maybe not magic craft and hillwen engineering, those are ridiculous) relatively grindy is because one of the benefits of these skills to the game at large is that they move the economy - fairly important, considering our only effective gold sinks come in the form of bank/shop fees, and repair fees (which can largely be circumvented if you're willing to just spam FH in everything). Not only that, but people are less likely to keep generating gold form monsters if they can make moneys selling stuff to other players. It's not just the sale of equipment that contributes to this, but also that of materials and manuals.
    And of course, we all seem to agree that life skills should require some effort to train.
  • XiokunXiokun
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,100
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    @AlmostNotsuper
    I agree with your points. Blacksmithing should be made a little easier but by NO MEANS baby easy. That'd be an insult. It still has to stay relatively grindy.
    It's just that I want to grind by means of effort, not grinding oodles and noodles of gold I won't ever get back. </3
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Not so sure. Hillween Engineering and Magic Craft seem to be harder, but they are also vastly more rewarding in currency, do not need manuals, and just focus on RPG instead of a minigame more rigged than a claw machine.
  • GreaGrea
    Mabinogi Rep: 855
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    Not so sure. Hillween Engineering and Magic Craft seem to be harder, but they are also vastly more rewarding in currency, do not need manuals, and just focus on RPG instead of a minigame more rigged than a claw machine.

    Well on that note, and I'm going with the assumption that they may not bring the production gachapon back on this, they could as some form of a step up just remove the manuals and patterns all together and have the recipes gained via rank up; similar to Handicraft,Carpentry,Potion making, Hillween Engineering, Magic Craft, and so on. Maybe even have some manuals locked that can be unlocked from quests, part-time jobs,and advancement tests and not lost to a forgotten gachapon. It's not much, but it's something.
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    On the subject of the production gachapon... No, just no. Please don't give Nexon any ideas. It's bad enough when they put stacks of potatoes in the other gachas.

    That said, I think they should release manuals of any gacha's "big ticket" items, and have them as a possible reward in their respective gachapons with reasonable crafting material requirements. (Be kinda stupid if crafting a detective outfit required a black dragon heart or something.) I think this should happen for both blacksmithing and tailoring. Simply put, if there were more high-level manuals floating around with items in demand, more people would feel rewarded for getting that R1.