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I'm guessing Nexon does not care about botters

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  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
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    Daktaro
    Daktaro said:

    just saying how is using a bot to train a skill any worse than drinking a skill training potion that trains the entire thing in one button click without having to do anything at all :\
    "It's unfair."
  • RingabelRingabel
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    edited December 21, 2016
    TNinja
    TNinja said:



    Hm? Does that mean people who got blackrobed was due to NEXOn removing an item from the game?
    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    From what the guy told me, the blackrobed character was Nexon's punishment for his botting. Obviously I don't know the specifics, but I don't see why he would lie about that.
    Why would Nexon remove an item from your hidden inventory, when they can just as easily ban you instead? It doesn't make any sense, and all I've heard about blackrobing was through the use of illicit tools - ones much more malicious than macros. ( and, being on the receiving end for. cough the whole campfire hacking incident cough )

    Look it up, I don't think I can give any more detail about it on here - I'm not saying he's lying, I just find it hard to believe it considering what blackrobing was used for back in the day.
    Daktaro
    Daktaro said:

    just saying how is using a bot to train a skill any worse than drinking a skill training potion that trains the entire thing in one button click without having to do anything at all :\
    Because those skill training potions make Nexon that sweet, sweet cash, that's why.

  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
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    Daktaro
    Daktaro said:

    just saying how is using a bot to train a skill any worse than drinking a skill training potion that trains the entire thing in one button click without having to do anything at all :\
    That's like saying, "How is using a hack to automatically R1 all of your skills any different from drinking a skill training potion?"

    Training potions are an actual part of the game. Hacks and bots are not.

    Your mentality really makes it seem like you have botted in the past. The guy that I recorded said something along the lines of, "I paid >$100 for this keyboard and mouse, so I should be allowed to use a macro to afk train my skills."
    Ringabel
    Ringabel said:


    Why would Nexon remove an item from your hidden inventory, when they can just as easily ban you instead? It doesn't make any sense, and all I've heard about blackrobing was through the use of illicit tools - ones much more malicious than macros. ( and, being on the receiving end for. cough the whole campfire hacking incident cough )

    Look it up, I don't think I can give any more detail about it on here - I'm not saying he's lying, I just find it hard to believe it considering what blackrobing was used for back in the day.
    I'm guessing the blackrobing was meant to be a warning to the player. He said he had invested several hundreds of dollars on the character that got removed. Perhaps he had a lot of pets and Nexon didn't want to ban the entire account.

    I don't know why you keep arguing this point. The player said that the blackrobing was Nexon's punishment for his prior botting. I'm going to trust him because he has no reason to lie about that.
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,265
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    Daktaro
    Daktaro said:

    just saying how is using a bot to train a skill any worse than drinking a skill training potion that trains the entire thing in one button click without having to do anything at all :\
    I do'n't know. Maybe because the bots doens't need to work for the skill seals or wait for the events?
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,715
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    Greta
    Greta said:

    Heard about it. Players being rude when you try to train your skills next to each other who also is training. Thank god i only encountered friendly people who helped me to lure raccoons on my skills to add more training. It's weird because i'm on Alexina and was hearing about these stories in this server only.
    It's a common sight in Mari, trust me. I can't train anything for the life of me. I don't usually resort to grinding, but when I do.. those kinds of people are always there.
    The things I wish I could say about them, but then I'd get banned from the forums. image
  • DaktaroDaktaro
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,335
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    edited December 21, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    That's like saying, "How is using a hack to automatically R1 all of your skills any different from drinking a skill training potion?"

    Training potions are an actual part of the game. Hacks and bots are not.

    Your mentality really makes it seem like you have botted in the past. The guy that I recorded said something along the lines of, "I paid >$100 for this keyboard and mouse, so I should be allowed to use a macro to afk train my skills."
    mm yeah you have a point... potions are part of the game. hacking is not on the same level as botting since botting is just doing inputs you would usually do yourself but automated, it's not altering game data in a way it wouldn't be altered by just playing the game.
    naw don't worry i'm not saying botting is okay and i know it's against the TOS. i just have used skill training potions before and it feels like cheating too, even though it's technically part of the game ; v ;
    so because of that i don't have strong feelings against botters even though they're breaking the rules, same as how i don't have strong feelings against modders who mod the game to reduce lag even though that's against the rules too. even if i don't bot or mod myself, people who do for those reasons don't bother me, that's just my perspective on it, not saying people should agree with me though. fair enough to be against it.

  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
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    Daktaro
    Daktaro said:


    mm yeah you have a point... potions are part of the game. hacking is not on the same level as botting since botting is just doing inputs you would usually do yourself but automated, it's not altering game data in a way it wouldn't be altered by just playing the game.
    naw don't worry i'm not saying botting is okay and i know it's against the TOS. i just have used skill training potions before and it feels like cheating too, even though it's technically part of the game ; v ;
    so because of that i don't have strong feelings against botters even though they're breaking the rules, same as how i don't have strong feelings against modders who mod the game to reduce lag even though that's against the rules too. even if i don't bot or mod myself, people who do for those reasons don't bother me, that's just my perspective on it, not saying people should agree with me though. fair enough to be against it.

    From a security standpoint, yes. Hacking is worse than botting.

    From a fair play standpoint, they are the same.

    Here's a scenario to help show my point. Imagine you are in a bidding war with another player for an item you want. Your current offer is 4m. Your opponent puts up 8m, an offer you can't match, and buys the item.
    After a while, you discover that the player who outbid you had generated his gold with a hack. Would it make you feel better if that player had collected money from gold-farming bots instead? Either way, he cheated in order to obtain something he didn't deserve.

    It's fine if you don't care about botters. However, bringing up training potions in order to justify botting is ridiculous.
    DaktaroGreta
  • ReintsReints
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    edited December 22, 2016
    To be honest, all of this just makes me wonder why the OP would want the playerbase for any given server to diminish further.

    It's definitely something considered against the ToS, and to some mild extent, it should be "provable" on their end.
    But instead of really doing something about it, they've let it sit there, for years.

    Maybe the quantity of players engaging in such actions isn't as high overseas, where accounts may be harder to obtain and where the rules are likely more strictly enforced. It seems like the real actions of consequence come from overseas, with this subverted maybe two or three times. If they don't care enough to give our own servers a blunt response to our collective actions, then it's only there to be interpreted that they either don't care about it or that don't even know about it.

    It's also possible that they just wish to give an unknown foreign audience sufficient room to "be themselves", in a cultural sense.
    It's just a guess, but I'm assuming that the US playerbase for any given MMO is generally wilder than their equivalents overseas.

    Alternatively, that the market for our game may just not be as strong as theirs--meaning that, we wouldn't be able to come close to recovering from a mass-ban over this. If told "no" at any point, the people scorned would just move on to something else.

    In any case, I think the only time I've heard of someone being "banned for botting" was when they were also exploiting some other glitch at the time, causing it to yield more than skill training. And that's said assuming that there's a line to be drawn between skill training and gold-farming.
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
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    Reints
    Reints said:

    To be honest, all of this just makes me wonder why the OP would want the playerbase for any given server to diminish further.

    It's definitely something considered against the ToS, and to some mild extent, it should be "provable" on their end.
    But instead of really doing something about it, they've let it sit there, for years.

    Maybe the quantity of players engaging in such actions isn't as high overseas, where accounts may be harder to obtain and where the rules are likely more strictly enforced. It seems like the real actions of consequence come from overseas, with this subverted maybe two or three times. If they don't care enough to give our own servers a blunt response to our collective actions, then it's only there to be interpreted that they either don't care about it or that don't even know about it.

    It's also possible that they just wish to give an unknown foreign audience sufficient room to "be themselves", in a cultural sense.
    It's just a guess, but I'm assuming that the US playerbase for any given MMO is generally wilder than their equivalents overseas.

    Alternatively, that the market for our game may just not be as strong as theirs--meaning that, we wouldn't be able to come close to recovering from a mass-ban over this. If told "no" at any point, the people scorned would just move on to something else.

    In any case, I think the only time I've heard of someone being "banned for botting" was when they were also exploiting some other glitch at the time, causing it to yield more than skill training. And that's said assuming that there's a line to be drawn between skill training and gold-farming.
    I've reported two players. And here you are, bringing up "diminishing player base" and mass bans.

    I'm not saying Nexon should comb through all of the accounts and ban everybody who has botted in the past. But if I submit clear video evidence of somebody botting and Nexon doesn't punish that player, when will they ever? Hence the thread title.

    I expected more of a response from a game that used to have bot-detection items.
  • ReintsReints
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Reints
    Reints said:

    To be honest, all of this just makes me wonder why the OP would want the playerbase for any given server to diminish further.

    It's definitely something considered against the ToS, and to some mild extent, it should be "provable" on their end.
    But instead of really doing something about it, they've let it sit there, for years.

    Maybe the quantity of players engaging in such actions isn't as high overseas, where accounts may be harder to obtain and where the rules are likely more strictly enforced. It seems like the real actions of consequence come from overseas, with this subverted maybe two or three times. If they don't care enough to give our own servers a blunt response to our collective actions, then it's only there to be interpreted that they either don't care about it or that don't even know about it.

    It's also possible that they just wish to give an unknown foreign audience sufficient room to "be themselves", in a cultural sense.
    It's just a guess, but I'm assuming that the US playerbase for any given MMO is generally wilder than their equivalents overseas.

    Alternatively, that the market for our game may just not be as strong as theirs--meaning that, we wouldn't be able to come close to recovering from a mass-ban over this. If told "no" at any point, the people scorned would just move on to something else.

    In any case, I think the only time I've heard of someone being "banned for botting" was when they were also exploiting some other glitch at the time, causing it to yield more than skill training. And that's said assuming that there's a line to be drawn between skill training and gold-farming.
    I've reported two players. And here you are, bringing up "diminishing player base" and mass bans.

    I'm not saying Nexon should comb through all of the accounts and ban everybody who has botted in the past. But if I submit clear video evidence of somebody botting and Nexon doesn't punish that player, when will they ever? Hence the thread title.

    I expected more of a response from a game that used to have bot-detection items.
    You were wondering why they didn't take action after a single report of each, by you alone, even though you're not exactly the first person to have made such a report about someone.

    I mean, I'm not sure what you really could've expected when you started this thread, other than a general discussion.

    I expanded my reply into a larger focus, because.. Why do those two, in particular, need to get banned for it, rather than any of the others who have been recorded as they clearly botted their skill training while out in the open. I interpreted it as an attempt to get the general conversation going, using the two more or less as scapegoat-y topic starters or something.

    I can't really recall their having bot-detection stuff, minus for certain archaeological pursuits.
    And that in particular yielded something other than character progression; money, exp, and a robe as a 'jackpot' reward.

    For anything else, I was under the impression that they more or less sent someone to investigate numerous characters acting oddly over a long period of time, with long meaning actual days or weeks.
  • KroeneKroene
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    Reints
    Reints said:


    You were wondering why they didn't take action after a single report of each, by you alone, even though you're not exactly the first person to have made such a report about someone.

    I mean, I'm not sure what you really could've expected when you started this thread, other than a general discussion.

    I expanded my reply into a larger focus, because.. Why do those two, in particular, need to get banned for it, rather than any of the others who have been recorded as they clearly botted their skill training while out in the open. I interpreted it as an attempt to get the general conversation going, using the two more or less as scapegoat-y topic starters or something.

    I can't really recall their having bot-detection stuff, minus for certain archaeological pursuits.
    And that in particular yielded something other than character progression; money, exp, and a robe as a 'jackpot' reward.

    For anything else, I was under the impression that they more or less sent someone to investigate numerous characters acting oddly over a long period of time, with long meaning actual days or weeks.
    It's a single report with clear video evidence showing, beyond any doubt, that the player is botting. I'm not saying they should only ban the players that I report. But if a report contains evidence of this level, some action is warranted.

    In addition to a general discussion about the topic, one thing I was hoping for was a response from Nexon. Perhaps a clarification on how long it usually takes them to respond to this sort of ticket. When I submitted the reports a couple of weeks back, all I received was an automated (ironic, eh) copypasta that started with "Greetings, Mapler". So the functionality of the system seemed dubious at best.

    Also: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Ticking_Quiz_Bomb
    "Archaelogical pursuits"? This thing was removed August 2015.
  • ReintsReints
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Reints
    Reints said:


    You were wondering why they didn't take action after a single report of each, by you alone, even though you're not exactly the first person to have made such a report about someone.

    I mean, I'm not sure what you really could've expected when you started this thread, other than a general discussion.

    I expanded my reply into a larger focus, because.. Why do those two, in particular, need to get banned for it, rather than any of the others who have been recorded as they clearly botted their skill training while out in the open. I interpreted it as an attempt to get the general conversation going, using the two more or less as scapegoat-y topic starters or something.

    I can't really recall their having bot-detection stuff, minus for certain archaeological pursuits.
    And that in particular yielded something other than character progression; money, exp, and a robe as a 'jackpot' reward.

    For anything else, I was under the impression that they more or less sent someone to investigate numerous characters acting oddly over a long period of time, with long meaning actual days or weeks.
    It's a single report with clear video evidence showing, beyond any doubt, that the player is botting. I'm not saying they should only ban the players that I report. But if a report contains evidence of this level, some action is warranted.

    In addition to a general discussion about the topic, one thing I was hoping for was a response from Nexon. Perhaps a clarification on how long it usually takes them to respond to this sort of ticket. When I submitted the reports a couple of weeks back, all I received was an automated (ironic, eh) copypasta that started with "Greetings, Mapler". So the functionality of the system seemed dubious at best.

    Also: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Ticking_Quiz_Bomb
    "Archaelogical pursuits"? This thing was removed August 2015.
    You'll pretty much never get a response from Nexon, or a representative of them, aside from them asking you not to discuss what you're discussing/to at least tone it down. Most of the community understands this, I think, or has at least acknowledged it partly due to all the unanswered 'server merge' threads.

    They just don't have that kind of energy, all the time, I guess, or aren't free to discuss certain things.
    Like with any given GM event: they're not about to do a one on one conversation in front of a crowd.

    Really, I think it was even stated as a rule at some point that we weren't supposed to try "calling them out", so to speak. Or to seek disciplinary action against others through the forums, in any way, even if it's just for the sake of elaboration.

    I think their customer service has improved past copy-pasted messages, but I'm not sure seeing as I haven't needed to contact them lately. The automated message was of course an automated message, while what they did with the information you gave them is placed intentionally outside of our perspective.

    They've definitely taken action against people for doing bad things in-game before, so it's not so much an issue of that. I'd guess that it's more of a "there's a lot of work to be put in, per report, to prove that the person was a botter, rather than a particularly focused trainer/a weird self-harming troll. Way more work than most of the offended players themselves would be willing to put in for the sake of quality reports. We have no idea whether or not the person they're reporting had actually blacklisted them, leading to the non-responsiveness. We could be enabling bullies due to a one-sided report, or be expected to invest several hours per report.
    We don't want to be held liable for being in the wrong, accidentally or otherwise, just as we don't want to waste paid employee hours on what could potentially be summarized as 'shenanigans'. Both of those things are pretty bad in terms of revenue, and plus, there's the concept of 'rocking the boat' in play.".

    And, as for the 'archaeological' thing..
    http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Fossil

    There was something directly related to that and the processes relating to it, and that something is gone now.
  • CarlizeCarlize
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,840
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    Kroene
    Kroene said:



    I've reported two players. And here you are, bringing up "diminishing player base" and mass bans.

    I'm not saying Nexon should comb through all of the accounts and ban everybody who has botted in the past. But if I submit clear video evidence of somebody botting and Nexon doesn't punish that player, when will they ever? Hence the thread title.

    I expected more of a response from a game that used to have bot-detection items.
    I haven't had much of an opinion since I don't mod or macro, but after reading these pages I'm feeling too sick to not say something. I'm sorry but if you think that losing two players (who could easily be "whales" who spend hundreds of dollars at the game each month) on any server isn't a big deal, then you haven't been playing recently. As someone who hates admitting mabi's small population, even I can see Mabi was in the red zone until the MusicQ update brought a ton of people back, and even now it's still rocky.

    And it isn't just two people. It's either two very unlucky individuals who had the displeasure of coming across a "white knight", or it's the start of something bigger and much more dangerous. If they ban the two, now they have to ban whoever else gets reported. And if someone cares enough to set up a macro program for something, they probably help keep Nexon as a company afloat at least to some degree. Banned forum users were even given a second chance with these new forums, Mabi wants more people, not less.

    Like people have said, it's extremely simple to buy training potions for cheap. All your doing with this thread is coming off as jealous for not being as tech savvy as others are. You'll have a much better experience if you stop worrying about what other people are doing with their characters and focus on yourself.
  • KroeneKroene
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Carlize
    Carlize said:


    I haven't had much of an opinion since I don't mod or macro, but after reading these pages I'm feeling too sick to not say something. I'm sorry but if you think that losing two players (who could easily be "whales" who spend hundreds of dollars at the game each month) on any server isn't a big deal, then you haven't been playing recently. As someone who hates admitting mabi's small population, even I can see Mabi was in the red zone until the MusicQ update brought a ton of people back, and even now it's still rocky.

    And it isn't just two people. It's either two very unlucky individuals who had the displeasure of coming across a "white knight", or it's the start of something bigger and much more dangerous. If they ban the two, now they have to ban whoever else gets reported. And if someone cares enough to set up a macro program for something, they probably help keep Nexon as a company afloat at least to some degree. Banned forum users were even given a second chance with these new forums, Mabi wants more people, not less.

    Like people have said, it's extremely simple to buy training potions for cheap. All your doing with this thread is coming off as jealous for not being as tech savvy as others are. You'll have a much better experience if you stop worrying about what other people are doing with their characters and focus on yourself.
    None of these are a valid justification for condoning cheating. You are saying Nexon should leave these botters alone as long they fork over enough cash. There's a term for this, it's called corruption.

    It kinda "sickens" me that I'm being referred to as a "white knight." I run into somebody breaking the ToS in a very public place. I record the player and send the video to Nexon's iffy customer support system. This would be a completely normal set of events in most games. I'm assuming botting is just too wide-spread based on the amount of backlash I'm receiving.

    Also, "tech savvy?" It's one thing to not care about cheaters, but you're actually praising them?
    You claim that you don't mod or macro, but your angry response says otherwise. Perhaps you should have a little more courage and actually admit what you are
  • ReintsReints
    Mabinogi Rep: 400
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    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Carlize
    Carlize said:


    I haven't had much of an opinion since I don't mod or macro, but after reading these pages I'm feeling too sick to not say something. I'm sorry but if you think that losing two players (who could easily be "whales" who spend hundreds of dollars at the game each month) on any server isn't a big deal, then you haven't been playing recently. As someone who hates admitting mabi's small population, even I can see Mabi was in the red zone until the MusicQ update brought a ton of people back, and even now it's still rocky.

    And it isn't just two people. It's either two very unlucky individuals who had the displeasure of coming across a "white knight", or it's the start of something bigger and much more dangerous. If they ban the two, now they have to ban whoever else gets reported. And if someone cares enough to set up a macro program for something, they probably help keep Nexon as a company afloat at least to some degree. Banned forum users were even given a second chance with these new forums, Mabi wants more people, not less.

    Like people have said, it's extremely simple to buy training potions for cheap. All your doing with this thread is coming off as jealous for not being as tech savvy as others are. You'll have a much better experience if you stop worrying about what other people are doing with their characters and focus on yourself.
    None of these are a valid justification for condoning cheating. You are saying Nexon should leave these botters alone as long they fork over enough cash. There's a term for this, it's called corruption.

    It kinda "sickens" me that I'm being referred to as a "white knight." I run into somebody breaking the ToS in a very public place. I record the player and send the video to Nexon's iffy customer support system. This would be a completely normal set of events in most games. I'm assuming botting is just too wide-spread based on the amount of backlash I'm receiving.

    Also, "tech savvy?" It's one thing to not care about cheaters, but you're actually praising them?
    You claim that you don't mod or macro, but your angry response says otherwise. Perhaps you should have a little more courage and actually admit what you are
    You probably crossed a line with that last part.

    Also, it probably "amuses" people that you've found yourself "sickened" from being called a "white knight".

    ":^)"
  • KroeneKroene
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Reints
    Reints said:


    You probably crossed a line with that last part.

    Also, it probably "amuses" people that you've found yourself "sickened" from being called a "white knight".

    ":^)"
    Not at all. His/her reply seems too opinionated for somebody who has never used a bot/mod. I'm asking for transparency.

    Also, it looks like I have a fan ^^. Glad to know somebody is following my posts

    Edit: You talk about crossing lines, but you made a reply just to mock my choice of words.
  • MizumoMizumo
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    Why do you care?
    Maybe it is because having a couple of people who use bot program is better than have 2 less players?
  • KroeneKroene
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    Mizumo
    Mizumo said:

    Why do you care?
    Maybe it is because having a couple of people who use bot program is better than have 2 less players?
    I have plenty of reasons. None of them are relevant to the topic of this thread, which is whether or not Nexon cares about botters.

    Say there is a paying player who doesn't want to train a skill. Which scenario do you think Nexon would prefer?
    (a) The player uses a bot to train the skill
    (b) The player uses money to buy a training potion
    Nexon benefits in almost no way in scenario A. In scenario B, there is a chance for Nexon to earn some money.

    Some people have been saying that Nexon should ignore these botters as long they pay enough money. This is essentially a form of bribery.
    These botters know they are breaking the rules. They have no right to feel wronged if Nexon punishes them.
    Greta
  • MizumoMizumo
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Mabinogi is having a big problem with people count as it is. When there are no people (even those who use bots now and then) it does not attract people (the reason I have left). And skill training pots is the least of the profits they get. The main income is gatcha, sales of cosmetic items and pets, and "shopkeeper sales". If they would be having cheats that would allow them to get all the goods for free, then yes, I see why it should be their priority, but having a bot does not harm them since they will invest either way, but for other different things.

    I have never purchased a single thing for skills, because it is a waste of NX; should I be banned now?
  • GretaGreta
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    Mizumo
    Mizumo said:

    Mabinogi is having a big problem with people count as it is. When there are no people (even those who use bots now and then) it does not attract people (the reason I have left). And skill training pots is the least of the profits they get. The main income is gatcha, sales of cosmetic items and pets, and "shopkeeper sales". If they would be having cheats that would allow them to get all the goods for free, then yes, I see why it should be their priority, but having a bot does not harm them since they will invest either way, but for other different things.

    I have never purchased a single thing for skills, because it is a waste of NX; should I be banned now?
    The hell you talking about. This sentence doesn't make any sense here at all.

    KroeneHelsa
This discussion has been closed.