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I'm guessing Nexon does not care about botters

Comments

  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,030
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    It creates a job opening. " The guy who bans obligate-cheaters "
    Hurray for whoever wants to be a wage-slave to that job title :)
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    What if a person replies 'yes.' How, then, would you tell whether or not they are actually botting or being sarcastic?
    I think your best bet in that scenario would be to call them a "big fat liar" and then CC
    That just proves that it's impossible to really tell whether or not someone is actually botting.

    Even if someone doesn't reply, who's to say that they aren't simply mindlessly clicking whatever while watching TV? I sure as hell have done that before when I trained Crisis Escape.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,030
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Depends on if the bot is sending keypresses(safe) or actual packets(just plain stupid design) and if there's a way to test for it.
    Like chatango bots :)
    Ones that use keypresses won't translate " &#; " style ascii codes while ones that use packets will give away their presence 100% of the time because chatango doesn't translate ascii operators in chat. Only alt codes

    nexon = yahoo. Not admitting security holes = millions of people affected when it's too late to fix it
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
    But didn't you just say that no skill is too tedious to justify it? You're now basically admitting they are.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,425
    Posts: 2,795
    Member
    Uncertainty exists everywhere, including fields like science, especially in theories and "laws". That is no excuse not to act on reasonable suspicion and have Nexon look into it.
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    Thats not a permanent fix though.

    Sure some people will stop, what happens if people just quit, they get sneakier at botting, or they start using a more offensive means to get what they want.
    There will never be a permanent fix to botting. All I'm saying is Nexon should discourage it by punishing botters.

    The thought that clamping down on skill-training botters would encourage people to hack is a bit irrational. People are not going to spend their time developing a hack in order to R1 their skills. They'd use that hack to give themselves 10,000 Str or other crazy shenanigans.
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
    But didn't you just say that no skill is too tedious to justify it? You're now basically admitting they are.
    Not at all. One of the biggest reasons to train Ninja is for the prestige of the Master title. You don't need R1 Smokescreen for that.

    2x Events and event potions are more than common enough to be considered a regular part of the game.

    Also, these botters are not just using their bots for just R2->R1. They are afk training the whole thing
    Greta
  • VivianVivian
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,030
    Posts: 33
    Member
    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    There will never be a permanent fix to botting. All I'm saying is Nexon should discourage it by punishing botters.

    The thought that clamping down on skill-training botters would encourage people to hack is a bit irrational. People are not going to spend their time developing a hack in order to R1 their skills. They'd use that hack to give themselves 10,000 Str or other crazy shenanigans.
    All I'm saying is that maybe the possibility of lower stupid requirements on stupid skills may stop people from pursuing alternate means of skill training. Why should skills like smokescreen have ridiculous requirements but skills like smash or defense be trained so much easier and have a greater payoff.
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
    But didn't you just say that no skill is too tedious to justify it? You're now basically admitting they are.
    Not at all. One of the biggest reasons to train Ninja is for the prestige of the Master title. You don't need R1 Smokescreen for that.

    2x Events and event potions are more than common enough to be considered a regular part of the game.

    Also, these botters are not just using their bots for just R2->R1. They are afk training the whole thing
    What about r1'ing a skill for the sake of having it be r1? Or, for whatever reason, they plan on actual using it? And you are saying it's tedious if you're advising people to wait until x2 events to train it.

    And can you prove that they've afk trained the entire skillset?
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,030
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Talk about personally invested [sarcasm]

    Defending people who breached contract.

    P.S:

    image
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    Vivian
    Vivian said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    There will never be a permanent fix to botting. All I'm saying is Nexon should discourage it by punishing botters.

    The thought that clamping down on skill-training botters would encourage people to hack is a bit irrational. People are not going to spend their time developing a hack in order to R1 their skills. They'd use that hack to give themselves 10,000 Str or other crazy shenanigans.
    All I'm saying is that maybe the possibility of lower stupid requirements on stupid skills may stop people from pursuing alternate means of skill training. Why should skills like smokescreen have ridiculous requirements but skills like smash or defense be trained so much easier and have a greater payoff.
    Like I said, none of this is a reason to justify botting. What you're doing is like trying to justify cheating on a test because a class is too hard.
    At what point does a class become hard enough that cheating is actually justified? My answer would be "never", but everybody has different principles.
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    Kouyioue
    Kouyioue said:

    Talk about personally invested [sarcasm]

    Defending people who breached contract.

    P.S:

    image
    Defense attorneys defend people who are accused of breaking the law. What point are you trying to make?

    And nobody in this thread ever said that they were for it.
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    I think there is an importance on how the grinding is executed. Nowadays there aren't really payoffs to have such tedious requirements for training. Besides of you dont have the gaming skill or experience to play mabi it really doesnt matter if your ranks are high if you dont know how to use them in combat. If your ranks are low you can still wipe the floor with ninja if you can play the class properly.

    I just don't think this is such a pressing issue as people make it to be. There are legitimate changes nexon can make to combat to make skill botting to make it less relevant, but they and everyone else seem to have no problems with the skill requirements outside of those who bot.
    The reason I brought that up was to show that grindy does not = bad. And you can't blame Mabinogi's diminishing playerbase on grindy skill training when the game has consistently gotten easier.

    Nexon can make botting less relevant by clamping down on botters. That's all they need to do. A significant portion of this community defends botting by saying training is too tedious, but there are no skills grindy enough to justify this argument. They are botting. Botting is against the rules. They should get punished.
    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
    But didn't you just say that no skill is too tedious to justify it? You're now basically admitting they are.
    Not at all. One of the biggest reasons to train Ninja is for the prestige of the Master title. You don't need R1 Smokescreen for that.

    2x Events and event potions are more than common enough to be considered a regular part of the game.

    Also, these botters are not just using their bots for just R2->R1. They are afk training the whole thing
    What about r1'ing a skill for the sake of having it be r1? Or, for whatever reason, they plan on actual using it? And you are saying it's tedious if you're advising people to wait until x2 events to train it.

    And can you prove that they've afk trained the entire skillset?
    I never said that there aren't any tedious skills. I said that no skill is tedious enough to justify cheating to rank it up. Important difference.

    What's stopping them from afk training the whole thing? Ninja is one most heavily botted talents simply because it's easy to bot. If there were a botting program elegant enough to automate all of the skills in the game, what would stop botters from using it for every skill?
  • VivianVivian
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,030
    Posts: 33
    Member
    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    Like I said, none of this is a reason to justify botting. What you're doing is like trying to justify cheating on a test because a class is too hard.
    At what point does a class become hard enough that cheating is actually justified? My answer would be "never", but everybody has different principles.
    My idea is that maybe there's a better approach to the problem. Not all issues are going to be conquered by simply banning the few people that bot in the sunlight anyway. Might as well change the reason they are botting for since they are absolutely ridiculous to begin with.

    Nothing will change, of course, if nexon is somehow profitting off how the skill training map is currently set but hey that's a completely different topic.
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:





    With x2 training, Smokescreen takes approximately 7 hours to bring from r2 to r1. That's only assuming you're using the skill at the precise second the cooldown ends.
    The solution is not to R1 Smokescreen cause it's dumb. Or you can wait for an event with 2X training or 2X potions.

    By the time you R2 Smokescreen, you should have R1'd everything else but Shadow Cloak and Sakura Abyss
    But didn't you just say that no skill is too tedious to justify it? You're now basically admitting they are.
    Not at all. One of the biggest reasons to train Ninja is for the prestige of the Master title. You don't need R1 Smokescreen for that.

    2x Events and event potions are more than common enough to be considered a regular part of the game.

    Also, these botters are not just using their bots for just R2->R1. They are afk training the whole thing
    What about r1'ing a skill for the sake of having it be r1? Or, for whatever reason, they plan on actual using it? And you are saying it's tedious if you're advising people to wait until x2 events to train it.

    And can you prove that they've afk trained the entire skillset?
    I never said that there aren't any tedious skills. I said that no skill is tedious enough to justify cheating to rank it up. Important difference.

    What's stopping them from afk training the whole thing? Ninja is one most heavily botted talents simply because it's easy to bot. If there were a botting program elegant to automate all of the skills in the game, what would stop botters from using it for every skill?
    I guess we can both agree that determining the grindiness of a skill to justify botting/macro'ing is completely subjective. And your second paragraph is just conjecture that doesn't prove how much effort a person has invested into training a skill.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,030
    Posts: 443
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    What matters right now is breaking things to the point where nexon is absolutely forced to do something about it instead of sitting on our butts circle.......ing around telling eachother that: AND I QUOTE: nothing will happen which gets NOTHING done.

    Blunt, inefficient, Bystanderism. . .

    One of the better compromises being the above post .

    This post:
    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    My idea is that maybe there's a better approach to the problem. Might as well change the reason they are botting for since they are absolutely ridiculous to begin with.
    Those ridiculous ninja requirements have to go as they promote botting. It's simple and easy to research, and easy to survey as being the root cause
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,245
    Posts: 319
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Kouyioue
    Kouyioue said:

    What matters right now is breaking things to the point where nexon is absolutely forced to do something about it instead of sitting on our butts circle.......ing around telling eachother that nothing will happen which gets NOTHING done.

    One of the better compromises being the above post .

    This post:
    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    My idea is that maybe there's a better approach to the problem. Might as well change the reason they are botting for since they are absolutely ridiculous to begin with.
    Those ridiculous ninja requirements have to go
    The action Nexon has taken against bots has never had anything to do with skill training, though. It was things that would've been detrimental to the game had they continued, such as commerce bots, Tail farming bots, etc. That's why those changes that people hate were put in place in the first place.
  • KroeneKroene
    Mabinogi Rep: 890
    Posts: 61
    Member
    edited December 22, 2016
    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Defense attorneys defend people who are accused of breaking the law. What point are you trying to make?

    And nobody in this thread ever said that they were for it.
    I don't know what thread you've been in, but only like 3-4 of the people here have said they are against botting. The rest have been saying that botting shouldn't be punished, and they've been listing reasons why they think it's justified.

    Using defense attorneys is a suboptimal choice for an analogy, don't you think? Defense attorneys are defending criminals because they are getting paid to. They have a monetary interest at hand. Since these botters aren't actually paying you guys money, the only reason I can think of for your avid defense of botting is.... you guys use bots and are defending them in your own interest, all while not public admitting to using them due to fear of punishment.

    Also, the only things that are meaningfully subjective are your principles. You think it's OK to cheat in X conditions. I think the skills will never be grindy enough to justify cheating.
  • VivianVivian
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,030
    Posts: 33
    Member
    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    I don't know what thread you've been in, but only like 3-4 of the people here have said they are against botting. The rest have been saying that botting shouldn't be punished, and they've been listing reasons why they think it's justified.

    Using defense attorneys is a suboptimal choice for an analogy, don't you think? Defense attorneys are defending criminals because they are getting paid to. They have a monetary interest at hand. Since these botters aren't actually paying you guys money, the only reason I can think of for your avid defense of botting is.... you guys use bots and are defending them in your own interest, all while not public admitting to using them due to fear of punishment.

    Also, the only things that are meaningfully subjective are your principles. You think it's OK to cheat in X conditions. I think the skills will never be grindy enough to justify cheating.
    Its obvious that its against the TOS, thats basically the only reason why you're so against it. You've provided little to no way to rectify the issue except "ban everyone involved" as if thats the magical solution.

    If you're going to fix a problem might as well consider why people are breaking TOS for something as small as skill training.
This discussion has been closed.