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I'm guessing Nexon does not care about botters

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  • KouyioueKouyioue
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    edited December 22, 2016
    But that's what these talks are for :)

    Xbox-Security PDF - "17 Mistakes"

    Read #17 on the very last page.

    Having just communications with your playerbase can fix lots of problems. I believe the ninja training requirements are ridiculous. But you still have to enforce your own terms of service to be taken seriously. Changing whythey're enforced[1] is less work. Ignoring why simply attracts the cheating in the first place

    ---

    [1] Why something is enforced: Which is more publicly justifiable?
    A:) Persecuting for an understandably hard to train skill that offers very little R1 combat utility
    or
    B:) persecuting someone who cheated on a skill that isn't understandably hard to train in the first place and is very much not going to earn sympathy?

    B certainly seems an easier target, as they'd come off as lazy and nobody's going to rescue someone who can't justify their cheating :)
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Defense attorneys defend people who are accused of breaking the law. What point are you trying to make?

    And nobody in this thread ever said that they were for it.
    I don't know what thread you've been in, but only like 3-4 of the people here have said they are against botting. The rest have been saying that botting shouldn't be punished, and they've been listing reasons why they think it's justified.

    Using defense attorneys is a suboptimal choice for an analogy, don't you think? Defense attorneys are defending criminals because they are getting paid to. They have a monetary interest at hand. Since these botters aren't actually paying you guys money, the only reason I can think of for your avid defense of botting is.... you guys use bots and are defending them in your own interest, all while not public admitting to using them due to fear of punishment.

    Also, the only thing that is meaningfully subjective are your principles. You think it's OK to cheat in X conditions. I think the skills will never be grindy enough to justify cheating.
    They've said botting for training skills shouldn't be punished. Flip the scenario for gold farming, and I'm sure their opinion would change.

    Also, many defense attorneys don't make as much money as you'd think, so if you really believe they're in it for money only and not for the justice of their client, you're incredibly mistaken. You're blowing a simple analogy out of proportion and it wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, as that was in response that person who stated "Defending people who breached contract."

    And how grindy you view skills to justify not botting is completely subjective.

    P.S: I don't bot. But it wouldn't surprise me if you'd accuse me of being one of those people "not admitting to using them due to fear of punishment."
  • KroeneKroene
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    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    Its obvious that its against the TOS, thats basically the only reason why you're so against it. You've provided little to no way to rectify the issue except "ban everyone involved" as if thats the magical solution.

    If you're going to fix a problem might as well consider why people are breaking TOS for something as small as skill training.
    I've clearly stated reasons why botting disadvantages legit players, but apparently you didn't read them. And I have never called for mass bans. You're just putting words in my mouth.

    Here's my logic for why botters are breaking the TOS for something as small as skill training: they're lazy
    Lazy people are everywhere. Almost every MMORPG has botters, because every MMORPG has lazy players. Botting is more widespread and welcome in this community because laziness is also widespread. And also because Nexon has a dubious reporting system.

    You say that I should look for a problem, but this "problem" is simply your justification for cheating. And your stance on that is unrelated to the game, believe it or not.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
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    worked out pretty well for overwatch actually. :)
    Banning cheaters = more people buying copies of the game = more funds ! !
    NekoLily
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Vivian
    Vivian said:


    Its obvious that its against the TOS, thats basically the only reason why you're so against it. You've provided little to no way to rectify the issue except "ban everyone involved" as if thats the magical solution.

    If you're going to fix a problem might as well consider why people are breaking TOS for something as small as skill training.
    I've clearly stated reasons why botting disadvantages legit players, but apparently you didn't read them. And I have never called for mass bans. You're just putting words in my mouth.

    Here's my logic for why botters are breaking the TOS for something as small as skill training: they're lazy
    Lazy people are everywhere. Almost every MMORPG has botters, because every MMORPG has lazy players. Botting is more widespread and welcome in this community because laziness is also widespread. And also because Nexon has a dubious reporting system.

    You say that I should look for a problem, but this "problem" is simply your justification for cheating. And your stance on that is unrelated to the game, believe it or not.
    I just realized the irony of calling people who macro train a skill on a game lazy. And I hope you do, too.
  • KroeneKroene
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    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    I just realized the irony of calling people who macro train a skill on a game lazy. And I hope you do, too.
    Enlighten me.
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    I just realized the irony of calling people who macro train a skill on a game lazy. And I hope you do, too.
    Enlighten me.
    The people who are marcro'ing are most likely allocating their time to something more productive, as opposed to a person who willfully sits infront of their screen spam-training a grindy skill i.e not being productive at all. Or, in layman terms, lazy.
  • KroeneKroene
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    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    The people who are marcro'ing are most likely allocating their time to something more productive, as opposed to a person who willfully sits infront of their screen spam-training a grindy skill i.e not being productive at all. Or, in layman terms, lazy.
    You're ignoring the fact that they're using a macro so they don't have to actually work for the skill. They are cheating so they don't have to do work. AKA lazy

    What they do while they are afk training their skills is:
    - entirely "conjecture"
    - doesn't change the fact that they are being lazy by botting in the first place.
  • lidiyalidiya
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,325
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    Vivian
    Vivian said:

    Kroene
    Kroene said:


    Like I said, none of this is a reason to justify botting. What you're doing is like trying to justify cheating on a test because a class is too hard.
    At what point does a class become hard enough that cheating is actually justified? My answer would be "never", but everybody has different principles.
    My idea is that maybe there's a better approach to the problem. Not all issues are going to be conquered by simply banning the few people that bot in the sunlight anyway. Might as well change the reason they are botting for since they are absolutely ridiculous to begin with.

    Nothing will change, of course, if nexon is somehow profitting off how the skill training map is currently set but hey that's a completely different topic.
    Basically this in a nut shell.
    Nexon has no incentive to make the skills to be reasonably trainable to people who actually have a life as they just throw training pots in gachas for money, and sell training pots.
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    The people who are marcro'ing are most likely allocating their time to something more productive, as opposed to a person who willfully sits infront of their screen spam-training a grindy skill i.e not being productive at all. Or, in layman terms, lazy.
    You're ignoring the fact that they're using a macro so they don't have to actually work for the skill. They are cheating so they don't have to do work. AKA lazy

    What they do while they are afk training their skills is:
    - entirely "conjecture"
    - doesn't change the fact that they are being lazy by botting in the first place.
    B-b-but they're still lazy!

    Also, you can't use the word conjecture in this scenario unless you actually believe macro'ers stare at their computer while their skills are training, which defeats the purpose of the macro in the first place.
  • KroeneKroene
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    B-b-but they're still lazy!

    Also, you can't use the word conjecture in this scenario unless you actually believe macro'ers stare at their computer while their skills are training, which defeats the purpose of the macro in the first place.
    Your argument is terrible partly because it's based entirely on one ideal situation out of hundreds of potential scenarios. The person could be afk botting while
    - Sleeping
    - Watching TV
    - Eating
    Personally, I think the first is the most likely.

    Here's an anology to show your logic.
    A guy convinces somebody to do his two-hour math HW for him. He then spends the next two hours working out at the gym, getting some serious gains.
    You: The fact this guy had somebody else do his work for him is irrelevant because he worked super hard at the gym.

    Okay
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    B-b-but they're still lazy!

    Also, you can't use the word conjecture in this scenario unless you actually believe macro'ers stare at their computer while their skills are training, which defeats the purpose of the macro in the first place.
    Your argument is terrible partly because it's based entirely on one ideal situation out of hundreds of potential scenarios. The person could be afk botting while
    - Sleeping
    - Watching TV
    - Eating
    Personally, I think the first is the most likely.

    Here's an anology to show your logic.
    A guy convinces somebody to do his two-hour math HW for him. He then spends the next two hours working out at the gym, getting some serious gains.
    You: The fact this guy had somebody else do his work for him is irrelevant because he worked super hard at the gym.

    Okay
    Are you telling me none of the hundreds of situations aren't more productive?

    Your analogy offers a win-win situation, an assumed good grade on math homework along with health benefits from working out at the gym. If he doesn't get caught cheating, and unless you can prove he did cheat, he has nothing to lose. This is opposed to a game where absolutely nothing is gained from manually training a skill other than maybe a sense of self-pride.
  • KroeneKroene
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    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Are you telling me none of the hundreds of situations aren't more productive?

    Your analogy offers a win-win situation, an assumed good grade on math homework along with health benefits from working out at the gym. If he doesn't get caught cheating, and unless you can prove he did cheat, he has nothing to lose. This is opposed to a game where absolutely nothing is gained from manually training a skill other than maybe a sense of self-pride.
    Nope, I'm just saying your argument is terrible because it's based only on one situation. You're saying botters aren't lazy because they are doing something productive with their time, which clearly isn't always the case.

    Not to mention, your logic is flawed from the beginning. A botter is cheating in order to obtain something he doesn't want to work for. Whatever he does while botting is irrelevant to the fact that he's being lazy by botting in the first place.
    GretaNekoLily
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Are you telling me none of the hundreds of situations aren't more productive?

    Your analogy offers a win-win situation, an assumed good grade on math homework along with health benefits from working out at the gym. If he doesn't get caught cheating, and unless you can prove he did cheat, he has nothing to lose. This is opposed to a game where absolutely nothing is gained from manually training a skill other than maybe a sense of self-pride.
    Nope, I'm just saying your argument is terrible because it's based only on one situation. You're saying botters aren't lazy because they are doing something productive with their time, which clearly isn't always the case.

    Not to mention, your logic is flawed from the beginning. A botter is cheating in order to obtain something he doesn't want to work for. Whatever he does while botting is irrelevant to the fact that he's being lazy by botting in the first place.
    Nope, I'm saying your argument is terrible because it's based on one situation. You're saying botters are lazy people because they are botting on a game, which clearly isn't always the case.

    Again, we have training pots in this game, which require zero effort to train skills. If a person buys one from another player for gold, Nexon is making no money except from the person who pulled the potion from a gacha. And it's highly unlikely that training pots were even their desired prize. How come you aren't calling the pot trainers out on their laziness?~
  • KouyioueKouyioue
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    edited December 22, 2016
    For the purpose of creating pages and pages and pages....And pages..And pages....


    And pages...

    Of recursive self-sustaining loophole arguments that are simply the same first point rephrased over and over again trying to find the "you win" loophole when it's been made apparent that both sides exist in the first place rendering a one-sided win moot

    Since both sides are confirmable(motives for cheating varies), neither side wins. Mwuahahahahahahahahaaa!
    Greta
  • KroeneKroene
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    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Nope, I'm saying your argument is terrible because it's based on one situation. You're saying botters are lazy people because they are botting on a game, which clearly isn't always the case.

    Again, we have training pots in this game, which require zero effort to train skills. If a person buys one from another player for gold, Nexon is making no money except from the person who pulled the potion from a gacha. And it's highly unlikely that training pots were even their desired prize. How come you aren't calling the pot trainers out on their laziness?~
    Resorting to childish antics. What a surprise

    You have to buy training pots, either with real money or in-game gold. That money did not grow out of nothing. You had to earn it somewhere.

    If you can't see the difference between that and cheating to obtain something you didn't work for, then I don't know what to say.
    Greta
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    Nope, I'm saying your argument is terrible because it's based on one situation. You're saying botters are lazy people because they are botting on a game, which clearly isn't always the case.

    Again, we have training pots in this game, which require zero effort to train skills. If a person buys one from another player for gold, Nexon is making no money except from the person who pulled the potion from a gacha. And it's highly unlikely that training pots were even their desired prize. How come you aren't calling the pot trainers out on their laziness?~
    Resorting to childish antics. What a surprise

    You have to buy training pots, either with real money or in-game gold. That money did not grow out of nothing. You had to earn it somewhere.

    If you can't see the difference between that and cheating to obtain something you didn't work for, then I don't know what to say.
    It was a rephrase of precisely what I was saying. It's interesting seeing a person upset over a little word play.

    What if the pots were gifts? Obviously you don't have to work for a gift. Ergo, no effort and the skills are trained anyway.

    What else do you have?
  • KroeneKroene
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    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    It was a rephrase of precisely what I was saying. It's interesting seeing a person upset over a little word play.

    What if the pots were gifts? Obviously you don't have to work for a gift. Ergo, no effort and the skills are trained anyway.

    What else do you have?
    It's kinda funny how much credit you give yourself

    That point about gifts is too dumb for an actual answer.

    Also, it's apparent that you're just here to argue. Slow day?
    Greta
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    edited December 22, 2016
    Kroene
    Kroene said:

    Raishii
    Raishii said:


    It was a rephrase of precisely what I was saying. It's interesting seeing a person upset over a little word play.

    What if the pots were gifts? Obviously you don't have to work for a gift. Ergo, no effort and the skills are trained anyway.

    What else do you have?
    It's kinda funny how much credit you give yourself

    That point about gifts is too dumb for an actual answer.

    Also, it's apparent that you're just here to argue. Slow day?
    What am I giving myself credit for? That was an actual question that you chose to not answer, but rather call it dumb.

    I've accomplished everything I've needed to do today in my real-life, and I'm enjoying a relaxing Christmas Break until next semester. It seems the day is slow for you, since you choose to continue to argue.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
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    Yup ~! Me too, I live alone because I earned the right ^_^
This discussion has been closed.