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Grandmaster Nurfs

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  • KokenKoken
    Mabinogi Rep: 860
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    So to ask. Does anyone know if the GM Cleric bonuses stack with other players GM cleric bonuses?
  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
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    Koken wrote: »
    So to ask. Does anyone know if the GM Cleric bonuses stack with other players GM cleric bonuses?

    Like if other people in the party are also GM Cleric?

    No it does not stack with multiple players who are GM Cleric.
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
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    edited July 6, 2017
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but...doesn't the bard talent itself give you a 30 duration buff and the active GM title another 30? Wouldn't that actually make it a buff instead of a nerf? I don't feel like logging back on just to check, but I'm fairly sure that's what it said. That'd be 10 additional duration for those with the title active and a free 30 for anyone who isn't actually an active gm bard.
  • IyasenuIyasenu
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    Siodhan wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but...doesn't the bard talent itself give you a 30 duration buff and the active GM title another 30? Wouldn't that actually make it a buff instead of a nerf? I don't feel like logging back on just to check, but I'm fairly sure that's what it said. That'd be 10 additional duration for those with the title active and a free 30 for anyone who isn't actually an active gm bard.

    And a free -20 duration and -5 music buff effect for previously GM Bards who choose something else as their active effect.
    Carlize
  • HimochiHimochi
    Mabinogi Rep: 735
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    Siodhan: You are correct. But look at it this way: Prior to the update, you got the following:

    Master Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    GM Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 50 Music Duration and 5% Buff Effect

    Now, a part of this big update, is that "even though each GM now has its own Active effect, you will ALSO get the PASSIVE effects of ALL your GMs, no matter what you have active".

    Buuuuuut...following the update, you get this:
    Master Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    GM Bard: total stats of...15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    IF ACTIVE: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 60 Music Duration and 5% Buff Effect

    So in essence, even though the update clearly states you get the passive effects of other GMs; if you aren't an ACTIVE GM Bard, you gain NOTHING by collecting the 20 seals and spending the 1m to make yourself GM Bard at all. Because there's now no stat boost between Master and GM. Does that make more sense?
  • CarlizeCarlize
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,840
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    The duration doesn't really matter for Bard, it's the buff that matters. It takes 3 seconds to BO so duration is kind of a slap to the face to see that as the benefit. I thought that Korea got +10 total if that was the unique talent but I'm having trouble finding the information about KR's grandmaster revamp. Either way it seems like a slap to the face to give everyone else tons of extra damage and stuff while bards get nothing new.
  • SiodhanSiodhan
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    It makes sense, but it's also no different than it was before, aside from getting some additional stats. Why not just collect every grandmaster title you wanted stats of and stick to GM bard as your active one? People have been very upset with the idea of not getting the best buffs ever since the starlet update came around when everyone and their GrandMother would become a mobile buffing battery. I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm glad for every bit of attention main bards get to have their exclusive stuff to be more of an actively playable role in a party instead of a side dish everyone can use. We're still ways off from that due to reforges and stuff though.

    To be honest, despite the extra stats, I'm not even thrilled to be able to get multiple grandmaster titles. They've dumped so many ways to gain additional stats nearly effortlessly on us these days that it's getting kinda..unmotivating. Not demotvating, just..doesn't feel worth bothering for anymore. The game's easy enough 99% of the time, anyway.
    AlmostNotsuper
  • HimochiHimochi
    Mabinogi Rep: 735
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    I can totally agree with that. It isn't much different. The one point I'm really trying to drive home now is...if they wanted people to think it was worth it to GM everything for the passive effects, shouldn't there BE a passive effect for GM-ing everything?
    CarlizeSiodhan
  • CarlizeCarlize
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,840
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    Siodhan wrote: »
    snip.

    Exactly, it's no different than it was before meanwhile all of the combat ones get +30 max damage, not to mention the interesting abilities life skills are getting. We're already sacrificing some of our damage output for the party, usually due to titles and enchants. Now we get nothing while everyone else gets bonuses on top of what their GM already had. That doesn't make bards more or less sought after. If we got the +10 that I thought Korea got then why would that affect whether someone is a bard or not? We still sacrifice the +30 max damage on top of everything else. Everyone's getting the stats from the GMs, not just bards. So that's not an argument either that we should just be happy with what everyone gets minus anything actually new or beneficial.
    Siodhan
  • SiodhanSiodhan
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    I do admit that it feels a bit weird, but even though I main bard for the benefit for everyone else in my party, I don't feel very strongly towards it. As a matter of fact, I hate it way more to have locked behind a paywall with no other possible way to obtain it than to, in comparison, get no buff and just stay as strong as I already am. I feel like a very vast majority of the playerbase really disapprove of bard-only stuff though, since people are way too used to having the best of literally everything. Humans especially. Don't you try and dare take anything away from them. So in the end, I don't even have a possible suggestion I would feel motivated enough to post in the suggestion section only to be ignored just like all the past times I spent hours on working on sensible ideas for revamps to better the game. Anything in that direction would just make people lash out because they can't be the best warrior and bard at the same time anymore. So, staying neutral like this? I don't find it so bad. At least we didn't lose anything, right? Gotta stay positive.
  • HimochiHimochi
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    You make a valid point. It's not as if anything we say here will ultimately make a difference. I mostly just feel that if they were gonna relegate the 5% effect from Bard to the Active title, they should've done the same with Merc's +10 Will and +25 Luck; or conversely leave both where they were, and create something NEW for Bard, like they did with the slot and weight for Merc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to alter some and add on to others; and especially not to make it meaningless to have a passive GM.
    InfighterCarlize
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,240
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    Oh no, you still have to choose GM bard over something else to get the GM bard effect. How horrible.

    Most of the people complaining about this probably aren't even dedicated bards, given that they're complaining about this fact.
    Carlize wrote: »
    Siodhan wrote: »
    snip.

    Exactly, it's no different than it was before meanwhile all of the combat ones get +30 max damage, not to mention the interesting abilities life skills are getting. We're already sacrificing some of our damage output for the party, usually due to titles and enchants. Now we get nothing while everyone else gets bonuses on top of what their GM already had. That doesn't make bards more or less sought after. If we got the +10 that I thought Korea got then why would that affect whether someone is a bard or not? We still sacrifice the +30 max damage on top of everything else. Everyone's getting the stats from the GMs, not just bards. So that's not an argument either that we should just be happy with what everyone gets minus anything actually new or beneficial.

    Except, it kind of is. Just like the bard buff skill bonuses, that extra damage is exclusive to the talent it's obtained from. These bonuses are not like stats, which affect everything a little (although, to be clear, I think this entire update was unnecessary power creep, minus the ability to switch GMs on the fly). The buff effect is much more significant on it's own than any of those meager stat boosts are - hence why most people at or near endgame went GM bard in the first place; it was a no-brainer if you weren't in the habit of going with someone else to give you the best buff possible. Now it's a little more even, so GM bard is not the obvious choice for everyone.
  • InfighterInfighter
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,125
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    edited July 6, 2017
    Himochi wrote: »
    You make a valid point. It's not as if anything we say here will ultimately make a difference. I mostly just feel that if they were gonna relegate the 5% effect from Bard to the Active title, they should've done the same with Merc's +10 Will and +25 Luck; or conversely leave both where they were, and create something NEW for Bard, like they did with the slot and weight for Merc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to alter some and add on to others; and especially not to make it meaningless to have a passive GM.

    Indeed
    At least they could have left the Grandmaster music buff bonuses as:

    5+ music buff for reaching Grandmaster and 5+ music buff and 3+ music buff for unique effect
    or
    else chances of obtaining better playing effects such as inspiring or hauntings (now that may sound "unique" and worth having for a dedicated bard).

    From Master to Grandmaster the bards stay with the same stats. Because that revamp only benefit bards with a 10 secs duration more than pre-revamp which doesn't really change anything dramatic for buffs as bard usually replays the buffs or use a Tuan to extend the duration even further.

    Master: 30 music duration 15+ str 15+ hp
    Grandmaster: 30 music duration 15+ str 15+hp

    There would be no point in reaching a Grandmaster if there can't be at least something else added aside from the unique effect (which we basicly had pre-GM revamp).

    Other people might be using unique effects in other talents (like combat, ninja, archery, magic) which may be why it doesn't bother them since its a new effect they gained after the Grandmaster revamp. But as dedicated bards, every music buff point counts as there isn't many ways of increasing it drasticly. So we dedicated bards had hopes for slight increase in music buff as part of our unique effects which is why we're not happy with out talent.
  • ZeoZeo
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,030
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    Zarric wrote: »
    What us bards are pissed off about is the fact that they nerfed the GM effects of bard before the unique ability comes into play.

    Before the update we got +15 HP, STR, +50 Music Buff Duration and +5 Music Buff Effect.
    After the update we get +15 HP, STR, +30 Music Buff Duration.

    So basically it should of been this:
    +15 HP, STR, +50 Music Buff Duration, +5 Music Buff Effect AND +5 Music Buff Effect, +30 Music Buff Duration (If unique is active)

    Just got around to checking this out and wow... you're really right... the boost you get for getting GM Bard actually got nerfed so you only get 5+ Music Buff back if you activate the GM Bard's Unique Effect so all we got is just 10 more seconds of buff duration, that's it! So yeah, I'm pretty pissed about this now... why, DevCat?!

    Also... just noticed that the GM boost for Battle Alchemist, Construct Alchemist, Gunslinger, and Puppetry got nerfed as well and there's no point in getting those GM talents because the stats literally stay the same... You only get 7 more HP for GMing Gunslinger or 10 more str/dex for GMing Puppetry and have to turn on 'Unique Effect' to get more damage for the Dual Gun and more HP/def for the Marionette...
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,265
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    edited July 7, 2017
    Himochi wrote: »
    Siodhan: You are correct. But look at it this way: Prior to the update, you got the following:

    Master Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    GM Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 50 Music Duration and 5% Buff Effect

    Now, a part of this big update, is that "even though each GM now has its own Active effect, you will ALSO get the PASSIVE effects of ALL your GMs, no matter what you have active".

    Buuuuuut...following the update, you get this:
    Master Bard: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    GM Bard: total stats of...15 HP, 15 STR, 30 Music Duration
    IF ACTIVE: total stats of 15 HP, 15 STR, 60 Music Duration and 5% Buff Effect

    So in essence, even though the update clearly states you get the passive effects of other GMs; if you aren't an ACTIVE GM Bard, you gain NOTHING by collecting the 20 seals and spending the 1m to make yourself GM Bard at all. Because there's now no stat boost between Master and GM. Does that make more sense?

    I do not quite understand this.

    Didn't you NEED an active talent to get the Grandmaster bonus before the update?
    AlmostNotsuper
  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
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    I'm still not happy about the apparent nerfs.

    But I mean... I'm still gonna work towards getting all the talents up to the Grandmaster level.
    Even the ones that have little to no difference in their Master -> Grandmaster boosts.

    Gonna be some expensive Journal points to get.
  • CarlizeCarlize
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,840
    Posts: 190
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    edited July 7, 2017
    Oh no, you still have to choose GM bard over something else to get the GM bard effect. How horrible.

    Most of the people complaining about this probably aren't even dedicated bards, given that they're complaining about this fact.
    [...]
    Except, it kind of is. Just like the bard buff skill bonuses, that extra damage is exclusive to the talent it's obtained from. These bonuses are not like stats, which affect everything a little (although, to be clear, I think this entire update was unnecessary power creep, minus the ability to switch GMs on the fly). The buff effect is much more significant on it's own than any of those meager stat boosts are - hence why most people at or near endgame went GM bard in the first place; it was a no-brainer if you weren't in the habit of going with someone else to give you the best buff possible. Now it's a little more even, so GM bard is not the obvious choice for everyone.

    I am a dedicated bard, so this does affect me. I don't even go for haunting, my normal and marvelous are 45% and my haunting is 53% for BO, so I go for consistency instead of wasting dura replaying all the time. So the duration doesn't help my bard style at all. And as someone else said, bards try to get every single point possible, anyone who's a "dedicated bard" would know that. That's why allegros sell for 25+mil even though they only give 3 buff effect, or why Starlet/Fortissimo go for so much, etc.

    And yes, while bard's buff does matter more than basic stats (again stats that everyone's getting anyway regardless of their active GM), the 5 buff difference that we really should have gotten for active GM (so +10 total) would only give a 1.1% difference. While yes that does make a difference and would make both bards and their parties happy to have the higher damage, it isn't game breakingly more and seems well within reason.

    So again, to reiterate, bards get nothing new besides the stats everyone gets for GMing, and they don't get to access the damage that other people now have access to. Saying it should be something exclusive doesn't make sense because with what I'm saying bards should still get +5 over non GMs, it'd just be that giving GM also gave 5 to everyone. Considering you can easily get 30 buff just from r1 song and playing instrument, it's not a very well thought out argument to say that non-bards shouldn't have access to ANY extra buff.

    Does anyone have a link to people discussing the GM revamp when it came out in Korea? I'd really like to compare the 2 and see if we got a nerf or not but I don't remember where that thread was for the life of me.
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
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    edited July 7, 2017
    But I'm just wondering, once again: why is this so bad? I am also a main bard so I understand the need to minmax with the buff effect. I do it too. I wasted all of my ingame gold that I've ever earned on that stuff because I don't gacha and the stuff is just that expensive. But....if we did get an upgrade to 10 or whatever bufff effect it would be, what would it really change? People are still most likely going to grab that as their active gm in that case, even if they aren't main bards. Isn't it nicer this way? At least now they have to choose.
    JoeyDee9AlmostNotsuper
  • RheyRhey
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,175
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    I'm a little salty yes but it's nothing too big of a deal I guess. The standard 25% BO is more than enuf for overkills in advance hm dungeons and elite sms.
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    how much does it cost to switch unique effects?