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Confirmed ; G21 this winter (kr)

Comments

  • ArchmagickArchmagick
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
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    edited July 10, 2017
    Giants arguably DIDNT need a revamp at all except to make WG/Stomp more useful. They were not in a bad spot compared to other races, maybe a bit behind humans in melee DPS but that was easy to fix (either slightly reduce FH % or buff giant Bash/Smash).

    Personally Elves/Giants should have been purely cosmetic but the ship has long since sailed on that.

    Pretty much every revamp Nexon has done with the exception of the magic revamp I'd call a failure from a balance perspective. Even the elf revamp just made hyperscaling range elves stronger while not doing much for anyone who doesn't want to use Elf Magnum.

    I've always disagreed with Elf QQ but honestly they've had a point all along - not in terms of "elves are weak" but more that "elves are one dimensional". If you pick an elf you're pretty much locked into Magnum Shot because you're mediocre to trash at everything else. Now elves finally get something ELSE they're "best in class" in (even if it looks more like a utility skillset) and they can't even have that.
    ZeoIzzyKuroNekoSenyuniSherrikapapa
  • IzzyKuroNekoIzzyKuroNeko
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,575
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    Archmagick wrote: »
    Now elves finally get something ELSE they're "best in class" in (even if it looks more like a utility skillset) and they can't even have that.

    Turns out its not an utility skills set, I sat down to watch the skills and looks like it'll be a respectable skill set that will be able to stand on its own.
    Zeo
  • RheyRhey
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,175
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    edited July 11, 2017
    this thread became elf qq fast. u guyz need to chillz on the min-maxing. Any end-game capped char worth their salt will solo steam roll 90% of mabi contents and dat 10% that's left will be steam rolled by a party of capped char anywayz. I'm just glad 4 contents so I don't need to go on another 1 year+ hiatus again. :*
    ArjuneBuffalos
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,045
    I thought this thread was going to be about G21.
  • ZeoZeo
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    Archmagick wrote: »
    Giants arguably DIDNT need a revamp at all except to make WG/Stomp more useful. They were not in a bad spot compared to other races, maybe a bit behind humans in melee DPS but that was easy to fix (either slightly reduce FH % or buff giant Bash/Smash).

    Personally Elves/Giants should have been purely cosmetic but the ship has long since sailed on that.

    Pretty much every revamp Nexon has done with the exception of the magic revamp I'd call a failure from a balance perspective. Even the elf revamp just made hyperscaling range elves stronger while not doing much for anyone who doesn't want to use Elf Magnum.

    I've always disagreed with Elf QQ but honestly they've had a point all along - not in terms of "elves are weak" but more that "elves are one dimensional". If you pick an elf you're pretty much locked into Magnum Shot because you're mediocre to trash at everything else. Now elves finally get something ELSE they're "best in class" in (even if it looks more like a utility skillset) and they can't even have that.

    See... this guy get it... I couldn't have thought of it like that way too.

    I really like the way how you said it in the last paragraph because as someone who main an elf... I'd have to agree that they're extremely one dimensional compared to other races because like you said, they're basically locked into Magnum Shot spam or just archery in general because you're bad to mediocre at everything else, basically... so yeah, it's safe to say that most of us elves were pretty ticked because we thought that we finally got a second skillset beside the archery that elves are best with only to have DevCat be like "LOL NOPE, Giants get better than elves with it too" being thrown at us... so I honestly can see why 'Elf QQ' (myself being involved as well) happened.
    KakuzenSenyuniSherrikapapa
  • SebastianSebastian
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    On the bright side, there are about as many Giants as there are polygons in old hairstyles. At least it's not a large population outdoing you, though I digress, I suppose I do realize now it is quite unfair.
    Zeo
  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,390
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    Sebastian wrote: »
    On the bright side, there are about as many Giants as there are polygons in old hairstyles. At least it's not a large population outdoing you, though I digress, I suppose I do realize now it is quite unfair.

    That's actually not true, since the Giant update was announced a number of people migrated to raising Giants a few months ago.
    NilremSenyuni
  • TheGreatCalistariusTheGreatCalistarius
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,055
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    The argument that you can only use Ladeca skills once a day is kinda dumb considering, if you have a good party, anything you're running should finish before it runs out anyway, and instead of hopping right back into another run, just take 5-10 minutes, and it's right back up and ready to use for the next run.

    However I also don't think a lot of you understand just how difficult it is for a Giant to cap Dex. To make an example, I'm going to be very generous here and assume you're a level 40k giant who really wants to cap dex, so much so that you rb into Starlet/Culinary Artist every RB for that extra 0.5 Dex every level that you won't get in free talents. So now you're age 10, and at 1 Dex per level. Now you got to level 200/50, so you get your 248 dex from levels and your 200 from Eweca. But oh no, you're not even at 1500 yet. You're only at roughly 1200. You need catering now.

    Let's take a look at how our level 40k Elf friend is doing, who is also at level 200/50, in their free archery talent, with their 0.75 base dex from levels at age 10. Why, they're already at 1800 Dex! Capped out! They don't even need a Dex Cater! They can go make a reasonably easy Cater that will give them 300 Luck for more damage! While the Giant has to make a dex/luck cater, that will only give around 180 of each. Still not enough to cap our dex, and less luck than the Elf is getting.

    I'm going to first say that I do not know how much Dex/luck the new skills are going to give in total. For Argument's sake, let's assume they give stats similar to what Ninja gave in Str/Will, and give our Elf/Giant another 174 dex, and 89 Luck, and another 30 dex and 70 luck from getting Grandmaster in the Talent.
    So let's say our Giant is now at roughly 1400 Dex without cater, and our Elf having been capped at 1800 for a while now.

    Judging from stats on the character sheet in the test server, it appears that the stats will be somewhere around a 2.5 Dex/max and 4.0 Luck/max.
    Basing this next logic off of that, we see our capped Elf with roughly 1800 dex and 846 luck after eating a 300 luck cater. And the Giant, assuming he is eating a 180dex/luck cater has roughly 1580 dex and around 646 luck after their cater. Let's do some very easy math to figure out what max we'll have in the end with these setups.

    The Elf should have around 931 max, without taking into account anything but their stats, while the Giant should have around 793 in similar situation. Let's add their 1.15 damage increase from Might of Ladeca to that and they end up with...only 912. And remember this was being very generous to the Giant in terms of them getting Dex. Normally their Dex/Level would only be 0.75. I'd also like to point out that it would actually benefit the Giant very slightly to just eat a straight Dex cater to cap it out, but the difference is very negligible, and still doesn't beat Elf.

    Keep in mind I, at this point in time do not know the stat gain per level in the new talent, so assuming it gives 0.5 dex per level, the Giant won't have to pay for their RB's, and not accounting the luck that it will give, since Elves will benefit from it just the same, the math will still be accurate.

    Also keep in mind the stat gain from the stats themselves was assumed. If by some chance they give enough dex to cap the giant's Dex without cater, then they will come out on top after using their Might of Ladeca by about 30 max. But that'd be a lot of Dex to give.

    This was also done using level 40k characters for that maximum Shine of Eweca boost, which I doubt very many players in NA have anyway.
    I also did not include Echostone use in this because it's irrelevant when both of them can wear the same stat Echostone.
    And for our real try hard Dex Giant, if they go and make Dragon White Wine Caters every time they run something, they will beat Elf with their Ladeca. But I'm trying to be realistic.

    For reference, the caters I mentioned were Curry-Roasted Red Sea Bream for Giants, and Apple Pie for Elves.

    In the end though, if we're all playing pretend that everyone here is completely, finish-line endgame, the damage difference is not that big anyway.
    ZeoMhaolSenyuniSugarAngel
  • ZeoZeo
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    edited July 11, 2017
    @TheGreatCalistarius - Very interesting insight on the chainslash skillset between Elves verus Giants... so I enjoyed reading that.

    I'd also like to add that you can always divine-link your level 200 pets and end up getting 200-300 more dex (depending on what type of pets) you get or so..? Maybe bit more luck from divine-linking your pet too. Also, we can GM all talents now so have you also put those dex from the GM talents into the account as well?

    And another part I'd like to point out... I'm not sure if anyone uses the heavy armor now or not... but I should point it out that the giants get the least dex penalty for wearing the heavy armor (and you can easily make that back up by divine-linking your pet and get all the dex back) while elves loses out on half of their dex for wearing a heavy armor... so giants can wear the heavy armor and using Chainslash skillset without having to worry too much about dex while elves cannot do so.

    Even without the 10x Dragon White Wine catering... they probably will beat Elf with their Ladeca in term of damage due to things like divine links with the pets and so on.
    MhaolSenyuniGreta
  • TheGreatCalistariusTheGreatCalistarius
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    edited July 11, 2017
    @Zeo - True! It's late and had forgotten about DL. So assuming the Giant did everything I mentioned, plus divine linking, while they're in ladeca they would indeed have more max for that particular skillset. I will still say though, it's not practical for the Giant to do everything mentioned, just to be able to have roughly 30 more max than an Elf in that particular skillset, especially with them missing out on Str doing this, arguably a Giant's main stat. I don't think they'd be able to cap Str outside of Talent, while not using a Str cater. Maybe with ES, not going to research it, if I'm wrong lemme know!

    And Elves on the other hand will have their very similar max, along with having their main stat capped out. I just don't think it's worth it for the Giant to invest so much into it, while losing out on other skill sets. If you're only ever using one skill set, you're not doing it right.
    ZeoMhaolSenyuni
  • ZeoZeo
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    edited July 11, 2017
    @Zeo - True! It's late and had forgotten about DL. So assuming the Giant did everything I mentioned, plus divine linking, while they're in ladeca they would indeed have more max for that particular skillset. I will still say though, it's not practical for the Giant to do everything mentioned, just to be able to have roughly 30 more max than an Elf in that particular skillset, especially with them missing out on Str doing this, arguably a Giant's main stat. I don't think they'd be able to cap Str outside of Talent, while not using a Str cater. Maybe with ES, not going to research it, if I'm wrong lemme know!

    And Elves on the other hand will have their very similar max, along with having their main stat capped out. I just don't think it's worth it for the Giant to invest so much into it, while losing out on other skill sets. If you're only ever using one skill set, you're not doing it right.

    Mmm, I see... so they do still outdamage the elves and depending on what % damage for some Chainslash skills they have... the 30 more max damage from the giants will be more noticeable because of the multiplier and even more noticeable when you use red upgrade on those weapons.. so I'm still pretty ticked about that, to be honest, haha.

    But you do have a good point that giants probably won't be maining the Chainslash but if we are going to include the Strength in the account for giants... I have been doing some thinking and well.. if you put in the account of GMing all talents, they'd also get more Strength compared to before and they also get some Strength from Eweca skill and I'd assume giants get some strength naturally from leveling up too, with talent or not... and if you includes divine-linking your pet, the giant should almost be able to cap their Strength along with Dex so...

    Lets do some math... assuming elves get the max of 931 with all the stats while giants get (roughly) 961 with all the stats PLUS Ladeca skill on...

    Lets say one of the chainslash skillsets do 1000% damage at r1.

    1000% x 931 would be equal to 9310 while 1000% x 961 would be equal to 9610.

    Now... just having r1 critical hit would do 2.5x more damage everytime you crit plus level 50 Yvona renown to add 10% more crit and maybe step7 red upgrade which add in.. lets say maybe 75% for the chainslash weapon... so 3.35x crit.

    For elves... 9310 x 3.35 = 31188.5
    For giants... 9610 x 3.35 = 32193.5

    That's more than 1k difference of damage...

    Now, let's factor the BFO and bone dragon chip (or weapon power potion) with those damage... I'll use... lets say... 40% BFO and the bone dragon chip increases the damage by 50%.

    For elves... 31188.5 x BFO 40% = 43663.9
    For giants... 32193.5 x BFO 40% = 45070.9
    ..............
    For elves... 43663.9 w/ Bone Dragon Chip or Weapon Power Potion = 65495.85
    For giants... 45070.9 w/ Bone Dragon Chip or Weapon Power Potion = 67606.35

    So... yeah, there you go... 2k difference between the elves and giants in term of Chainslash damage... and I'm not sure if we'll get reforge stuffs for chainslash and if they'd add in more damage multipler or not but they'll be the factor in making giants end up doing more damage too if we do end up getting reforges that increase the damage multiplier for Chainslash skills ... of course, that is assuming the max damage formula for Chainslash is 2.5 dex per 1 max and 4 luck per 1 max so...
    NeynaSenyuni
  • TheGreatCalistariusTheGreatCalistarius
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    edited July 11, 2017
    Bone Chips only add 20%. But still comes out similar.

    Personally, I don't see an extra 1.8k extra as a huge difference. But aside from that, this is all considering that you are up against a 40k Giant, for them to be able to even reach 1700 Dex with Eweca, who also, assuming Chain Talent doesn't give 0.5 Dex, is in a Paid RB Talent at all times, has capped Yvona, has level 200 Dex pet, etc. Maybe in KR you might find this more often, but as far as I'm aware you're only playing in NA, where the odds of finding this Giant regularly, is pretty slim. So it doesn't really affect you either way. I've just personally seen a lot more capped out Elves than Giants on NA lately.

    It's also assuming my assumed comparison on stat gain from chain skills to Ninja skills is anywhere near correct.
    ZeoMhaolSenyuni
  • ZeoZeo
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    edited July 11, 2017
    Bone Chips only add 20%. But still comes out similar.

    Personally, I don't see an extra 1.8k extra as a huge difference. But aside from that, this is all considering that you are up against a 40k Giant, for them to be able to even reach 1700 Dex with Eweca, who also, assuming Chain Talent doesn't give 0.5 Dex, is in a Paid RB Talent at all times, has capped Yvona, has level 200 Dex pet, etc. Maybe in KR you might find this more often, but as far as I'm aware you're only playing in NA, where the odds of finding this Giant regularly, is pretty slim. So it doesn't really affect you either way. I've just personally seen a lot more capped out Elves than Giants on NA lately.

    It's also assuming my assumed comparison on stat gain from chain skills to Ninja skills is anywhere near correct.

    Ah, thank you for correcting me on the Bone Chips part but yeah... hopefully you're right in that case then~
    MhaolSenyuni
  • ArjuneArjune
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    edited July 11, 2017
    Who even USES ninja anymore? Oh boy, giants have a tiny bit more str in a skill set no one uses so they must be far superior. Does that mean if elves somehow suddenly got 500 more will I should be upset that they're better at fighter? because we know how much people use fighter :*

    there's a reason the giants got the buff. Giants were always supposed to be really good at close combat skills (which they fell behind in and was recently fixed) Elves are still OP with archery over in KR. they're considered top tier over humans right now because the humans are the ones complaining there now not the elves. Might of Ladeca is supposed to add that 15% damage to all combat oriented skills for giants and they decided this skill falls under that. it's not like it an extra buff. I can't believe you're getting mad that they're attempting to race balance a new skillset. Yes, there's still problems with old ones, but you're literally mad because they're balancing the new one? Yeah... that's progress... they might as well make nothing for anyone in the future because people are never happy. No one should be 'better' in any skillset and they are attempting to balance it but nah let's complain instead
    Kaga wrote: »
    Giants have more advantages than elves.

    /topic

    You say that every time and it never makes any kind of impact with me. Especially considering there's still a possibility for elves to get a combat revamp you're just looking for anything to complain about

    Sebastian wrote: »
    Honestly it's just a battle between who's more deserving at this point where both parties are fairly rude to each other. I'm just here to make that obvious. S'pose I should keep my head out of this now, I've said what I needed.

    This thread was just fine until people started the rant about elves...
    ArchdukeValeCortez
  • NeynaNeyna
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    edited July 11, 2017
    @Arjune I like how you mentioned me and edit your post lel. So much for baiting me or something? I guess it worked cause I was quick enough to see that.
    As for fighter (something I main), Giants will always benefit regardless of will. Giants gain 10% more Chain Mastery damage than Human, 20% more than Elves. Capping will (1500) isn't hard with Divine Link and Pecan Pie cater. So I am more upset that Giants get 10% than "IF"Elves getting '500 will'.
    ps. Giant has shorter cool down on chain skills too.

    Oh thanks for reminding me, I'll go like that comment right now :)

    Either ways, not hyped for the new talent.
    Senyuni
  • ArjuneArjune
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    edited July 11, 2017
    are you all in some big chat group together just linking this thread around so you can gang up now? that's so mature

    and yes they did list an elf update, technically. They are working on racial balancing in general this year. God forbid they decide to racially balance a new skillset or anything
    Neyna wrote: »
    @Arjune I like how you mentioned me and edit your post lel. So much for baiting me or something? I guess it worked cause I was quick enough to see that.

    It wasn't a bait for you... more like a small jab at him because it seems everywhere he goes he brings you in to like his post and back him up. and here you are proving it. That's why I edited my post, but it's ok since you proved it anyways
    Koken
  • ArjuneArjune
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    Zeo wrote:
    Giants get better than elves with it too" being thrown at us...

    again I am asking where's the PROOF that giants are actually freaking BETTER at the skillset? oh my GOD.
    ArchdukeValeCortez
  • NeynaNeyna
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    edited July 11, 2017
    What? there's a thing called different time zones. Where is the "ganging up"? Why would there be a Big group when it's only Kaga that's commenting on this thread and you mentioning Kaga's "gf" which lead me to reply you?

    So you are saying that elf update will be something outside of archery for once?

    And I was the one who told him to look at this thread.
    KagaSenyuniGreta
  • ArjuneArjune
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    edited July 11, 2017
    Neyna wrote: »
    What? there's a thing called different time zones. Where is the "ganging up"? Why would there be a Big group when it's only Kaga that's

    that was a bit of a joke because like 6-7 people suddenly came posting in this thread on a weekday morning when usually the forums dead af

    I think I'll stop posting because this thread turned into elf qq / flame war now
  • MhaolMhaol
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    Arjune wrote: »
    and yes they did list an elf update, technically. They are working on racial balancing in general this year. God forbid they decide to racially balance a new skillset or anything

    Please provide a Link to that Elf Update. I don't see anything about it from the Developers Conference list, so if it was added recently, I'd love to see that. Thank you


    KagaSenyuniTunfisk