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REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH

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  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    So I did some math on stats and got a quick and dirty comparison of weapon attack growth between chain slash and close combat
    e648b55beffc33d9e022b7c56df84fac.png
    It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
    1) AP costs
    2) Max damage growth from stats

    An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.

    From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    GretaSherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You may as well add those stats together. (Chain Slasher + Close Combat)
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    (Gone are the days of making a new player without combat skills).
    Even if we skip the tutorial. :sleeping:

    From what I recall, new tutorial teaches smash, defense, counter, windmill, and combat mastery right? Only CM and counter will contribute to chain slash's max attack so let's just add those in for you. 26 dex and 13 max from CM will result in 26 additional max attack for chain slash combined. That's now 89 max attack for 3 thousand AP, versus 109 for 1.6 thousand AP.
    My point that the AP cost is waaay too high for your stat return in the weapon is still there.
  • CaissaCaissa
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    After some time to consider it, I would definitely recommend beginners try this talent. Bachram Boost seems like an incredibly useful tool for new players to have, especially if they don't even have traditional Transformation skills yet. The attack skills that are just handed to you provide plenty of attacking options and disruption.

    Also, so long as we are considering beginners, I don't think assuming numbers like 1.6k AP is appropriate. It is possible to reach that number while under cumulative 1000 but by that point it shouldn't matter what the game is recommending as a starting talent. I think the stat gain from leveling up and being in the right talent is the more important consideration for the actual beginners.
  • SebastianSebastian
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    While players honestly should and do have the freedom to choose whichever talent they begin with (aside from Adventurer, which will be integrated later in my argument), there are, as in many other situations, more beneficial and growth-inducing options that should be utilized before moving onto other talents. This is also the sub-nature of the game, evident in many different skills for different talents, similar to how certain Music-based skills assist with empowering Intelligence for magic power, and so on. With Chainslash (Dex and Luck) this is also true, but found in more niche skills that not every newbie would find too thrilling as a starting experience, like life skills. There is of course archery if you're into... that. Or puppetry, of course. If I recall correctly and my investigation is correct, these are where a bulk of player's dex is obtained, meaning it would be more efficient or beneficial to focus on these talents/skills before advancing to chainslash. The argument has been made that because basic close combat is forced onto each player at the beginning that it should be enough to outweigh the travesty that would be chain's related stats, and to that I ask if Adventurer would be a viable option regarding that mindset? Of course not. You're actually prohibited from selecting it at the start of your journey. Basic close combat won't solve all your problems. There are several talents that prove this, Magic being one of them. Ever seen someone smash a monster with a staff? It isn't optimal.

    And through that we find what's truly important here- not if it's possible, but if it's helpful. And in the long run, you really should focus on talents that provide what would be necessary for proper usage of Chainslash, especially considering its stat combination. It's not like basic close combat where that's mostly what you'd need for building your strength. Chain will not efficiently grow with you despite rewarding the stats necessary for strengthened usage at a low boost. Hell, if you want to, focus archery/puppetry primarily with chainslash on the side. Just don't make it your primary while you're growing.

    Also, final note, choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never a good idea for a starter talent- the same goes for fighter. I'd rather have a talent where the skills are quite easy to obtain to the point I can get them with a week's work and have all I need to level up rather than having to perform ludicrous missions to obtain them all before I can even power them up with AP (there's a lot of bitterness and experience from fighter here). That's all, disagree or agree, this is my stance.
    YokkaichiGretaSherri
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Buffalos wrote: »
    So I did some math on stats and got a quick and dirty comparison of weapon attack growth between chain slash and close combat
    e648b55beffc33d9e022b7c56df84fac.png
    It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
    1) AP costs
    2) Max damage growth from stats

    An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.

    From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    Not everything is about stats. In fact, stats should be the last thing a beginner would want to worry about.
    There's also weapon damage, the skill % and ease of use
    Chain sweep alone makes the skill set worth while. MASSIVE AOE and 680%
    I tried using r1 kunai storm/crash shot/wm after getting used to chain sweep and it was pathetic
    [Deleted User]
  • SebastianSebastian
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never ......
    Close Combat falls into that category as well.
    Interesting how that's all you quote from me... anyway...

    Close combat isn't a 10+ mission questline for each skill or an overly complicated requirement that you slave away at or spill millions on :*

    Besides, you were regarding basic close combat. Can't change the stance midway through. And I was encouraging doing puppetry or archery. Not the entire close combat line.
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    lceCream wrote: »
    Not everything is about stats. In fact, stats should be the last thing a beginner would want to worry about.
    There's also weapon damage, the skill % and ease of use
    Chain sweep alone makes the skill set worth while. MASSIVE AOE and 680%
    I tried using r1 kunai storm/crash shot/wm after getting used to chain sweep and it was pathetic
    1) My post pointed out the lack of weapon damage growth within the skill set alone and how much AP and total levels it costs.
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    The linked screenshots begin from creation. ~ Doing nothing for it, I learned Combat Mastery upon entry into the tutorial (as soon as I entered the game); and then I learned Defense, Smash, Counterattack, Assault Slash and Windmill upon arrival in Tir Chonaill. (all without ever laying my hands on a weapon). I get what you're saying about AP, but that factor doesn't ruin the game or make things more difficult for the player (no more so than any other talent, or skill set). All I'm saying is they won't be without the basics if they choose to be a Chain Slasher first. ~ The fact being overlooked by everyone here (despite being said multiple times by myself) is the user isn't stuck with their choice for more than 24 hours after making it. ~ Unlike the past, where choosing a talent (or destiny) you didn't like could've taken a week or three weeks to correct. ~ People are acting like this is a "once-in-a-lifetime-game-breaking mechanic" being piled on top of innocent people who might quit playing the game. ~ and this gives the impression there's a lot of people who forgot what it's like to play the game without Talents to reduce their training. *
    Every new player I've met has hard-focused their first talent's skills for a nice time after character creation. It doesn't matter which talent they picked, they stuck with it for a while until they decided to pick up something else. The issue with this mentality and dual stat talents is that dual stat talents give very little stat points per AP spent, resulting in little growth for more levels gained and the appearance of wasted time.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    There are only 3 available Talents for a new player on first rebirth. ~ Fighter, Close Combat, and Chain Slasher. It doesn't matter what I was regarding in my previous replies. I was referring to the Close Combat Talent in my reply to you. ~ How much was AR when it came out?

    :star: Newsflash! ~ We can obtain the Chain Slasher skillset without the Talent (this isn't the end of the world we're talking about here). :star:
    Here's where close combat (or any other talent, for that matter) and chain slash really differ mechanically: chain slash has nearly half of all the skills locked behind side quests. Sure some of them are easy, but some of them also aren't doable by new players. Dorcha crystals for spinning slasher require coil abyss runs, death mark needs peaca runs (though party play is allowed so that helps), bacharm explosion requires spinning slasher to start the quest, and the others are RNG drops or fetch quests. The "it's just like AR pages!" argument literally doesn't work when half your talent is AR pages or similarly daunting hunts.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    This is the real reason they want to remove Chain Slasher from Begginner Talents. :trollface: :smirk:

    And this is helpful to the thread why, exactly?
    Sherri
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    1) My post pointed out the lack of weapon damage growth within the skill set alone and how much AP and total levels it costs.
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.

    Here's where close combat (or any other talent, for that matter) and chain slash really differ mechanically: chain slash has nearly half of all the skills locked behind side quests. Sure some of them are easy, but some of them also aren't doable by new players. Dorcha crystals for spinning slasher require coil abyss runs, death mark needs peaca runs (though party play is allowed so that helps), bacharm explosion requires spinning slasher to start the quest, and the others are RNG drops or fetch quests. The "it's just like AR pages!" argument literally doesn't work when half your talent is AR pages or similarly daunting hunts.

    It's the UTILITY and DAMAGE that makes it good
    It's range which makes it safer than melee, and always hits which makes it safer than archery
    It has the best aoe and safest single target

    Chain only needs 2 skills to function: chain sweep and chain impale/crush (and snatch for auto attack). The rest are just extras
    Spinning slash does nothing, it's just for stats. Explosion does nothing, again just for stats.
    Unlike mage, chain doesn't need the locked skills
    [Deleted User]
  • SebastianSebastian
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Please remove the broom from your a** and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.

    There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
    Sherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Please remove the broom from your a** and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.
    There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
    When I posted the picture; it wasn't about a stat war with "Buffalos, the King of Errin", or anyone's real or actual beliefs.
    Life advice for ya: when you bust in with "GET THAT STICK OUTTA YA REAR" you're pretty much trying to start somethin' about their beliefs.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Did you know we can obtain the Chain Slasher skills without the Talent? ~ Yup! ~ Just like every other skill in the game!
    Bufflos wrote:
    Every new player I've met has hard-focused their first talent's skills for a nice time after character creation.
    The issue isn't that you're locked into the talent or lack training bonuses for other skills. The issue is that most new players don't know to branch out into other stuff and 'lock themselves' into their first talent for a while and focusing in on a talent that has half the skills locked behind massive progress walls for newbies isn't ideal. What if they assume the rest of the game is like that? That all skills are locked behind content that they can't complete without years of work put into their character? They'll most probably give up and leave the game because they have made zero attachments to it.
    GretaLidrster
  • SebastianSebastian
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    People are acting as though this is a game-breaking-end-of-the-world-thing; as though Talents are all this game is about and are pretending (for who knows what reason) "we must have a specific Talent, over all others" to play the game properly.

    Disregarding your passive aggressive nature with William, no one is making it out to be an end of the world scenario so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It was a simple discussion- maybe you feel it's suddenly an "end-of-the-world-thing", but I do believe you're significantly exaggerating what's being discussed here by thinking that, and instilling the belief that it is rather important yourself despite your saying that it isn't. Just something to keep an eye on. But this thread is getting somewhat off-topic and isn't for petty arguments, so let's get back on topic about chainslash instead of being passive aggressive. :)
    Sherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    That moment when 24 hours becomes long term.
    ~ Not once... Not twice... but .. every 24 hours until the new player reaches a total level of 1000.
    Perhaps you should remove your tunnel vision blinders and actually read my posts instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.
    Buffalos wrote:
    The issue isn't that you're locked into the talent or lack training bonuses for other skills. The issue is that most new players don't know to branch out into other stuff and 'lock themselves' into their first talent for a while and focusing in on a talent that has half the skills locked behind massive progress walls for newbies isn't ideal. What if they assume the rest of the game is like that? That all skills are locked behind content that they can't complete without years of work put into their character? They'll most probably give up and leave the game because they have made zero attachments to it.
    There I even bolded the important parts that you should have read.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    -quote snippets-
    Buffalos wrote:
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.
    Seriously it's bad enough that everyone forces the "GO HUMAN OR YOU'LL SUCK FOREVER" crap down everybody's throats. Stop trying to push newbies into metas they don't have the stats or experience to fully utilize.
    GretaSherri
  • TNinjaTNinja
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Chakylin @TNinja @Buffalos @Sebastian :sleeping:
    Chakylin wrote: »
    especially because of the fact that you need to have generations done to fully utilize it.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    some (like myself) can't even beat Barri Brown.
    Zairak wrote: »
    Barri Black is actually easier than Barri Brown.
    @nomigid15 @Zairak https://imgur.com/a/ckjFY
    Generation 1: Brown Fomor Pass (Piece of Cake). :smirk:
    CwtSqEl.jpg
    TNinja wrote: »
    The talent itself isn't even great as a starting point either.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    What armor do have, and how much Protection does it give? Because I can't withstand magic attacks for crap (especially alchemy attacks).
    The Adventurer's Noob Crap from Aeira. (I had, and still have, 4 Protection). :smirk:

    ~ Between 'Chain Impale' and 'Dorcha Snatch' .. Nothing stood a chance! :trollface:

    xBGgQGZ.jpg

    What were you even trying to prove here?
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Buffalos ~ I posted a picture showing the repair costs of a beginner chain blade (1 gold per point is great at step 6). The repair costs are right there on the screen in front of you. (It's not about beliefs). I also included a smirk and a trollface to imply a slight of sarcasm at the end of the post. I asked you to remove the broom from your obviously over loaded with defiance "Dairy aire", because you clearly had/have a one-track mind and were/are still stuck on AP costs. None of which is remotely relevant to a user who can Rebirth (and change Talent) every 24 hours.

    really? i thought beginner weap can't step upgrade
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    lceCream wrote: »
    really? i thought beginner weap can't step upgrade

    From what I can tell, that's true. Though I think the general point was "Look at this weapon I can repair for one gold. Totally negates any counter arguments to this thread."
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    From what I can tell, that's true. Though I think the general point was "Look at this weapon I can repair for one gold. Totally negates any counter arguments to this thread."
    Well alot of beginners do complain about repair costs. This beginner weap is actually good compared to the rest of the 1g ones
    Guns and ninja don't have any 1g weap
    [Deleted User]
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You have a lot of nerve. You really do.
    Said the guy who came in here gun's blazing.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Just prior to a new user's very first rebirth (via the rebirth and talent quest from Duncan), they are sent to a special area (hosted by Tin) where they can try out Talents. When they're done; they can leave the map, talk to Duncan, and commence with their very first (forced) rebirth. At this time they are given the chance to choose a Talent. Their available choices are presented to them on three of four visible tabs. The First Tab says 'Starter Talent'. The Second Tab says 'Combat Talent'. The Third Tab says 'Life Talent'. The Fourth Tab says 'Hero Talent'. This entire thread is focused on the fact that Chain Slash is visible on both the First Tab and the Second Tab. You are assuming new users won't (or don't) have the brain capacity to view more than the First Tab of Talents they're presented with (despite knowing they had a chance to try each of them, just prior to said rebirth).
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    One more time Buffalos ~ How will moving Chain Slash out of the First Tab change anything? ~ Tell me again how dumb people are. :sleeping:
    I'm not questioning their intelligence. If you're going to put words down my throat at least make them characteristic of myself instead of what you truly think.
    The newbie area let's the new crowd try out everything with minimal context, no bias, and no limit. It's cool and opens them up to what they can do down the road. The first talent pick is normally rather random or whatever the player thought looked better, but the rebirth screen's talent selection is supposed to better categorize the talents and let the player make a slightly more informed choice.

    If a player is brand new to a game and sees the words BEGINNER TALENT plastered on a tab in the selection screen, they'll assume that those talents are more geared towards the newbies (what a shock!). Not everyone is going to pick from the tab (which is fine), but the ones who do are going into the game thinking that their talent was made for them: someone new.
    Looking at everything I've posted, it should be clear that statement isn't the case here. 6 of the 13 skills are locked behind hunting/fetch quests that newbies cannot complete without considerable strength, the stat point gain will barely help other talents when you consider the level costs to get them, and the dangerous assumption that everything else in the game with be as much of a quest and training grind. The talent isn't meant to be an easy thing. Why are you okay with that being presented to newbies as "beginner friendly"?
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    ~ Now ...
    The beginner weapon post was made out of sarcasm; hence the reason I wasn't so friendly to Buffalos.
    The fact that you have to come in here and explain that to everyone is quite honestly pathetic. You've overused the troll face emoji on this forum so nobody ever knows when you're serious anymore.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Going back to the first page... when GandorEU said, "You think from perspective of long time player that knows the game well"... ~ I initially disagreed with that statement, because new users can rebirth daily, but now I have to turn around and agree with it too (but not for the reason they initially gave). Yeah! I think from the perspective of someone who learned their skills individually, at their leisure, without a leash.
    Going to share why that is? Because from what I've seen from you here you're as hard opposed to the notion as humanly possible.
    GretaLidrster
  • SherriSherri
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    Agreed, this is no beginner talent. What you need to do to get most of the skills.. I wonder if I can even hold my ground against them. I'm almost cumulative level 9k and I'm scared of that giant tree in Coill Abyss ;-;
    lceCream wrote: »

    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct

    Hi hi~
    I'm an alch. c:
    SebastianYangKoete
  • DianusiaDianusia
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    https://imgur.com/Z3jSThA
    Just in case no one seen it earlier. Begginer talents aren't supposed to make you suffer.
    So, uh. I think I might say something as well, as a beginner myself?
    Remember that glorious 20 days ago when chain slash was about to be released? I was like, OH DANG.
    I said about this to my friend, and when we saw it on beginner talent list, she made up her mind that she wanted to play as Chain Slasher. And guess what.
    She does not play anymore, ESPECIALLY after questline that shows you two skills, but teaches you one skill. And how to obtain another one, you ask? Be a pro. She had hard time trying to make some storyline chain slash quests, for example beating boss. After that she had to ask friends (that was actual miracle that they agreed) to carry her through whole Peaca dungeon so she could sketch Banshee. Then was the main issue. She saw Spinning Slasher requirements. So we were like, well, if it is not possible to obtain them normally, we should buy them, right?
    But if this is a beginner talent, why new skill elements go for freaking MILIONS? Come on, Arrow Revolver and Fireball TOGETHER costs less than ONE dorcha crystal. This was the reason she thought that she cannot bear even a beginner "easy" talent. How to kill someone's self-confidence: Nexon edition.
    Also, about Baltane Missions. NAH, it is not happy-go-lucky "easy mission" at all. Even for beginners. Killing zombies is not this big deal, but this one punch bear (Beartama) is just a bit too much. Kills both your character and morale.
    Chain Slash is NOT for beginners.
    SherriGretaRihoshi
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
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    So just going to leave my two cents here, the issue with it being in the beginner tab isn't that it breaks the game or locks new players into a bad talent but rather that it is just plain misleading. New players who pick this up aren't likely to know that they've picked the hard talent, and thus waste time (amongst other potential resources) trying to raise a talent meant for players far higher than them. Unless an older player tells them that they'd be better off choosing another talent the new player will be more likely to continue trying to master the talent rather than switch over to a new one, because that is how most people start the game off. We chose the one talent we wanted and worked to complete it before moving to other talents. If a new player wants to do that with Chain Slash then that is fine, but Mabi should be upfront about the talent so they know what they are getting in for or that if they switch to another talent it will be easier.

    Also there is a lot of ground between not advertising it like it is for new players and putting a level limit on it. Accurate information is inherently better than misinformation. This talent clearly wasn't designed with new players in mind and even if the option is open to them they should be given some indication of that rather than just assuming that they'll give up and try a new talent in 24 hours or catch on via osmosis (most new players have trouble understanding the difference between talents and classes in other mmos already). True this isn't game breaking, but it isn't really good game design either.
    SherriYokkaichiGretaRihoshi
This discussion has been closed.