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REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH

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  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Greta wrote: »
    You guys keep beating the dead horse here at this point.
    Honestly gonna agree with ya and fold out. There's no use arguing with someone without a conscious about ethical advice in a game. Not when the defenses remain the same when the counters change.

    ShouKDianusiaRihoshi
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    You guys keep beating the dead horse here at this point.
    Honestly gonna agree with ya and fold out. There's no use arguing with someone without a conscious about ethical advice in a game. Not when the defenses remain the same when the counters change.
    It's not that I don't have a conscious; it's that we're talking about the difference between one tab and the other. Two tabs among four in the same window. You're assuming new players will choose Chain Slash (over Fighter or Close Combat) because it's available as a Starter Talent in the first tab with a difficulty rating of 2.5 stars (out of 5). I'm not the one assuming anything here. You and your pals in this thread are doing all of the assuming. Assuming a new player will not click the second tab and research their options is in fact questioning their intelligence. ~ You can twist and turn and weasel in whatever direction you want; those are the facts.
  • DianusiaDianusia
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    because it's available as a Starter Talent in the first tab with a difficulty rating of 2.5 stars (out of 5)
    That's the point. It should be EASIER, because it is in "beginner" tab with a 2.5 difficulty rating, while in reality it's full of sorrow and pain for someone who starts his journey in Erinn. Trust me, as a beginner myself.
    RihoshiBuffalosYangKoete
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    @Dianusia ~ I've played the talent as a beginner on a brand new account. It's not hard or even slightly difficult to use. For a starter, the damage is over-powered. It's literally a cake walk through the first 100 levels of progression. All of the whining about the difficulty of obtaining 3 skills is not much different than the difficulty of gathering pages for AR, or Ice Spear, or Thunder. ~ Save the end game perks about Chain Slash for end game, but don't think for a second you have to wait until then to enjoy it.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    some (like myself) can't even beat Barri Brown.
    Zairak wrote: »
    Barri Black is actually easier than Barri Brown.
    @nomigid15 @Zairak https://imgur.com/a/ckjFY
    Generation 1: Brown Fomor Pass (Piece of Cake). :smirk:
    CwtSqEl.jpg
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    What armor do have, and how much Protection does it give? Because I can't withstand magic attacks for crap (especially alchemy attacks).
    The Adventurer's Noob Crap from Aeira. (I had, and still have, 4 Protection). :smirk:

    ~ Between 'Chain Impale' and 'Dorcha Snatch' .. Nothing stood a chance! :trollface:

    xBGgQGZ.jpg
    Dianusia
  • DianusiaDianusia
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    edited January 4, 2018
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    difficulty of obtaining 3 skills is not much different than the difficulty of gathering pages for AR, or Ice Spear, or Thunder.
    Do I have to remind you that archery and magic are not listed as beginner talents? So why same thing cannot happen to chain slash? I chose archery knowing I will have it a bit harder than it goes with close combat. I would take chain slash if I had such option tho, because I will think it is EASIER than archery to start off. Really.

    EDIT: also, if Dorcha Crystal were so easy to get, they wouldn't cost MILIONS. As I mentioned:
    Dianusia wrote: »
    So we were like, well, if it is not possible to obtain them normally, we should buy them, right?
    But if this is a beginner talent, why new skill elements go for freaking MILIONS? Come on, Arrow Revolver and Fireball TOGETHER costs less than ONE dorcha crystal.


    RihoshiGreta
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    Dianusia wrote: »
    Do I have to remind you that archery and magic are not listed as beginner talents? So why same thing cannot happen to chain slash? I chose archery knowing I will have it a bit harder than it goes with close combat. I would take chain slash if I had such option tho, because I will think it is EASIER than archery to start off. Really.
    You chose Archery from the Second Tab on your first rebirth? You actually clicked on it ( hey @Buffalos are you reading this > ? ).. ? If you can click on the Second Tab and choose Archery or Magic .. what's stopping anyone else from doing the same thing and choosing Chain Slash from the Second Tab.. ? (You can switch to Chain Slash talent for free on any rebirth; if you didn't know). :smirk:

    If they took it off the first tab .. like this thread is crying about ... ~ what stops someone from clicking the second tab? :smirk:

    Price check on Ice Spear pages? Thunder pages? Fireball pages? AR pages? ~ I just got my 2nd drop in a row today of 2nd dorcha crystal.

  • DianusiaDianusia
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    edited January 4, 2018
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You chose Archery from the Second Tab on your first rebirth? You actually clicked on it ( hey @Buffalos are you reading this > ? ).. ? If you can click on the Second Tab and choose Archery or Magic .. what's stopping anyone else from doing the same thing and choosing Chain Slash from the Second Tab.. ? (You can switch to Chain Slash talent for free on any rebirth; if you didn't know). :smirk:

    If they took it off the first tab .. like this thread is crying about ... ~ what stops someone from clicking the second tab? :smirk:
    As I clicked on the Second Tab and I chose archery just because I always tend to play as archer in every single game and I didn't feel like having to start off with beginner talent. BUT if I wanted to choose something to start off easily, I would chose one of beginner talents, because this is what they are about. BEING EASY for beginner.
    Dianusia wrote: »
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    @Dianusia ~ Don't patronize me. ~ I know what the word beginner means (ref to your image). I wasn't born yesterday morning. ~ The fact you clicked on the second tab and chose for yourself speaks volumes in support of my argument with @Buffalos (where he insists the average player doesn't have the brain capacity to do such a thing and will assume something else). The 2.5 star rated talents are all available on the second tab, just as they are on the first. ~ Beating around the point doesn't answer what'll prevent new players from using one.

  • DianusiaDianusia
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    @Hardmuscle Frankly speaking, I would think you were born last night. Really, we are talking about not recommending chain slash from beginner tab. This is what this thread is all about. I chose second tab because I was looking for archery already. If I wanted to try something easier than archery, I would go with chain slash in beginner tab, and I would be slightly disappointed with how hard it is to get skills from Chain Slash. If I wanted to get a weapon I can use without skills at all, I would go for sword (close combat).
    Rihoshi
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    Dianusia wrote: »
    @Hardmuscle Frankly speaking, I would think you were born last night. Really, we are talking about not recommending chain slash from beginner tab. This is what this thread is all about. I chose second tab because I was looking for archery already. If I wanted to try something easier than archery, I would go with chain slash in beginner tab, and I would be slightly disappointed with how hard it is to get skills from Chain Slash. If I wanted to get a weapon I can use without skills at all, I would go for sword (close combat).
    Having or not having a talent plays no role in your ability to wield weapons or use skills relevant to any talent. That's to say; you don't need a specific talent to unequip one weapon and use the other; or to learn skills from a talent you don't have active at the time. It's clear you don't know much of what you're talking about.

  • DianusiaDianusia
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    @Hardmuscle, dear, it is not about being forced to use chain slash skills, but it looks clearly like recommendation for new players to try this BEFORE moving on to other talent. It is ALL about recommendation and this proves you don't really understand the discussion in this thread. This is why I wonder if I really am the one that don't know much of what I am talking about - at least I am not saying same thing over and over again, ignoring everyone else.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    @Dianusia ~ #1 - You're not a new player .. and #2 - I'm not your dear. I've also been here since the game was first released (in 2008). I know full well what's going in this thread and full well what your purpose here is today. If a new user chose Chain Slash as their first talent, or Fighter, or Close Combat, or thought for themselves and chose Archery, or Ninja, or any of the other talents available, ... nothing... literally nothing (aside from gold perhaps) stops them from equipping a wand or a staff and acquiring (without the Magic talent) almost every Magic skill in the game. The same applies for every other talent available to new and old users alike (not including Aces for 39 Pon - which today .. omg .. just unlocked Culinary [Catering] to every noob there is .. for free -- better hurry and stop them from ruining their day ... or .. saving money)..

    I made the noob 2 weeks ago to prove a point. ~ https://imgur.com/a/vPzo2
    With the exception of Aces; Talents play no role over the skills you can learn or the weapons you can use. All they do is provide a 2x experience bonus and a slight stat indifference. Choosing Close Combat doesn't stop you from equipping a Guard Cylinder and using Alchemy skills; just like choosing Archery doesn't stop you from equipping a Chain Blade and getting Chain Slash skills. You can quit with the fallacy garbage.

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    edited January 4, 2018
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    It's not that I don't have a conscious; it's that we're talking about the difference between one tab and the other. Two tabs among four in the same window. You're assuming new players will choose Chain Slash (over Fighter or Close Combat) because it's available as a Starter Talent in the first tab with a difficulty rating of 2.5 stars (out of 5). I'm not the one assuming anything here. You and your pals in this thread are doing all of the assuming. Assuming a new player will not click the second tab and research their options is in fact questioning their intelligence. ~ You can twist and turn and weasel in whatever direction you want; those are the facts.
    The point of the beginner tab is to give suggestions for starter choices, not to advertise a brand new talent (with the NEW tag included). Your're right that newbies can pick whatever freaking tab they want, but the point of the 1st is to give a gentle little nudge into a more friendly skillset that isn't this one. The skillset's power isn't a fair trade for the blatant disrespect of showing skills in a tutorial that no newbie can learn. Bacharm Boost doesn't excuse immense repair costs for the weapon or even close to negate potion costs like you claim.
    Your lack of empathy on this is frankly appalling.
    Dianusia wrote: »
    That's the point. It should be EASIER, because it is in "beginner" tab with a 2.5 difficulty rating, while in reality it's full of sorrow and pain for someone who starts his journey in Erinn. Trust me, as a beginner myself.
    THIS is what the beginner tab is for. Something that introduces combat in a slow and controlled pace and not "okay you need to micromanage your target spacing, resource usage, and pray you don't get double aggro'd because you didn't micromanage resources."
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You chose Archery from the Second Tab on your first rebirth? You actually clicked on it ( hey Buffalos are you reading this > ? ).. ? If you can click on the Second Tab and choose Archery or Magic .. what's stopping anyone else from doing the same thing and choosing Chain Slash from the Second Tab.. ?
    Go read the very first paragraph of text by me in this post you dimwit. Seriously just read it again until that sinks into your thick skull.
    Dianusia wrote: »
    Seriously, I guess there is no point in talking with you, because you are the only person using same arguments over and over again, so I guess I will pass, following Buffalos.
    Ohh I did say that I'd stop didn't I. Opps.
    DianusiaGretaYangKoete
  • SebastianSebastian
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Instead of having this debate and trying to make me look like the assuming what everyone wants; you should be asking them to remove the Second Tab.

    You're insinuating that we should ask for the second tab to be removed because literally any newbie can click talents there?
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    If you can click on the Second Tab and choose Archery or Magic .. what's stopping anyone else from doing the same thing and choosing Chain Slash from the Second Tab.. ? (You can switch to Chain Slash talent for free on any rebirth; if you didn't know). :smirk:

    Yes, they can! Congratulations, you made an observation irrelevant to the problem. It's the idea that Chain was improperly given the "Beginner" talent placement (It's a similar argument to how people wanted "New" removed off of Alexina).
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    I didn't lose anything. No matter how many trolls make posts about me (as opposed to posts about the topic).
    This is golden coming from you :trollface:
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    @Sebastian ~ The thought of floating in a gondola makes me nauseous. :flushed:
    Buffalos wrote: »
    It wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be a mislabeled beginner talent if there are no beginner talents at all.
    You're assuming (sigh lol), assuming it's mislabeled because 3 out of 13 skills are rough to get. Is there really something bad about having something to work for later? Does not having those 3 skills immediately.. somehow break Chain Slash builds? (lmao @ builds in Mabi).

    Here are the skills I've obtained up to a cumulative level of 45 .. on the brand new noob I made 2 weeks ago and barely played (life, combat, magic, and chain). The Firebolt was picked up for free via fishing at Port Cobh. Is it really so bad that a user might quit? Seriously? ~ Nope.

    I deleted my oldest pet to make that character.

    Transparent message is transparent. :trollface:

    lceCream
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Sebastian ~ The thought of floating in a gondola makes me nauseous. :flushed:
    Buffalos wrote: »
    It wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be a mislabeled beginner talent if there are no beginner talents at all.
    You're assuming (sigh lol), assuming it's mislabeled because 3 out of 13 skills are rough to get. Is there really something bad about having something to work for later? Does not having those 3 skills immediately; somehow break Chain Slash builds? (lmao @ builds in Mabi).

    Here are the skills I've obtained up to a cumulative level of 45 .. on the brand new noob I made 2 weeks ago and barely played (life, combat, magic, and chain). The Firebolt was picked up for free via fishing at Port Cobh. Is it really so bad that a user might quit? Seriously? ~ Nope.

    You are missing the point in it's entirety, the problem here isn't what people have access to but rather what impression is being given by labeling something as a beginner talent. The other two talents in that field are there because they are both easy to learn, and close combat tends to be foundational for the combat system in Mabi with most other systems mirroring it to some degree. If you can master it then wrapping your head around other talents becomes considerably easier, especially because Mabi takes a difficult to learn easy to master approach to combat. Fighter on the other hand is probably the easiest talent to use in the game thanks to its combo system. Both allow for the player to get a better understanding of the core without throwing too much on top for new players to worry about. Because the beginner tab gives the implicit impression that this talent will also be both easy to learn and complete it is counterintuitive to the purpose of the beginner tab, and with skills locked off behind high level quests and with it being a hybrid talent even if the talent has some immediate short term gains it is not something new players should bother investing time and ap in at the get go.

    Chain Slash on the other hand is arguably the most complex system in Mabi right now, which isn't saying a whole lot I'll admit but it does throw an extra layer of micromanaging on to the combat system. This leads us to your first fallacy, assuming that a new character is the same as a new player. Presumably you have some knowledge of the mechanics and systems of the game and have to learn little to nothing, and thus will be able to play a character at a much higher efficiency compared to a newer player. Therefore your vaunted experiment doesn't really amount to anything conclusive or insightful. More useful data would require feedback from several newer players in order to establish a learning curve over the course of their first thousand levels or so.

    Your second fallacy is the assumption that new players will act optimally and simply pick up another talent. Talents are more like a declaration of what the player chooses to work on, and while by no means binding Nexon is (as I said before) giving the implicit impression that this is something newer players should be working on. Also keep in mind that newer players are ignorant to the game in every way except that which they've discovered, and may end up experiencing undue frustration because they didn't know better. In addition to their ability to change tactics one must also measure their willingness to do so and their lack of knowledge in other areas, because remember this chain slash was advertised as being an easy talent that they could adeptly learn. While this may not every new player quite it might very well ruin a number of their gaming sessions until they wise up or finally grow frustrated enough to give up on the talent.

    Now you might be saying well what's the big deal, but that is the entire irony of your argument. The only thing that eclipses the negligibility of this thread's proposal is the senselessness of the decision, there is literally nothing to be gained from having the talent displayed prominently in the beginner tab. It should be moved solely because it is out of place, and for all your arguing over the presumed pointlessness of the OP and the supporters of this thread you've failed to once provide a reason that it should stay or benefit for this placement. You are the one who is making much to do about nothing, since you are resisting a proposal to correct misinformation to new players solely because a work around exists and never once bothering to provide any merit to your point. Instead you only try to poke holes in other people's arguments.
    DianusiaSebastianBuffalosYokkaichiGretaYangKoeteChakylinSindryth
  • YokkaichiYokkaichi
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    Just something else to point out, Ninja was once a part of the beginner tab as well, and it too was also suggested to be removed due to it being a hybrid talent, which is something a newbie would have no idea about. Considering the questline to gain the Ninja skills is far easier than the Chain Slash questline, as well as giving you all the Ninja skills available once you finish the quests, I find it baffling how you're still defending Chain Slash as a beginner talent.
    GretaYangKoete
  • RihoshiRihoshi
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    After I finished reading that thread I got a feeling that @Hardmuscle instead of trying to help he is more concern about showing how amazing and skilled he is forgetting he is not a begginer.
  • RihoshiRihoshi
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    After I finished reading that thread I got a feeling that @Hardmuscle instead of trying to help he is more concern about showing how awesome and skilled he is compared to begginers(?)
This discussion has been closed.