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It is time to give Giants and Elves Final Hit

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  • nomigid15nomigid15
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,270
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    Would giving elves Arrow Revolver help?
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Would giving elves Arrow Revolver help?

    I can see it helping beginner archers alot
    Not much use in endgame. Mostly used for finishing deadly enemies and weak mobs
  • EkaterinEkaterin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,360
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    A good indicator of just how good Final Hit is, look at the Clobbermeister leaderboard. Just now, top score on my board was 1.35m points, with most of the top 10 being 750k or above. I have zero doubt every single one of those scores is a human who used final hit (I recognize a lot of the names). Best I managed in a dozen tries with Frosted Borealis Hammers using Bash and pretty decent damage gear was 144k, about 1/10th the top score. Yeah, I could do better once I have better enchants and get them to R6 or R7, but I don't think I'll be doing 10x the damage.

    Another indicator used to be Boss Trial clear times. All the top spots were humans with Final Hit. Smash-level damage with no knockback and instant teleport to the next target is just super OP. Final Hit is just insane burst damage, if you can call it that because of how long the sustain is. The skill is broken, really.
    SherriDaktaro
  • ZeoZeo
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    If it was up to me, I’d make it so all three races get every skill possible, basically making all three races be based on cosmetics only.

    Or at least do what @Lutetium mention... giants got few revamps and rebalancing already yet the elves didn’t even get one which is waaaay overdue and elves probably get overlooked because KR doesn’t get the lag unlike NA...
  • EkaterinEkaterin
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    Zeo wrote: »
    If it was up to me, I’d make it so all three races get every skill possible, basically making all three races be based on cosmetics only.

    Or at least do what @Lutetium mention... giants got few revamps and rebalancing already yet the elves didn’t even get one which is waaaay overdue and elves probably get overlooked because KR doesn’t get the lag unlike NA...

    Honestly, I like the racial differences, even though it's Giants who have been screwed over, historically. It's not nearly as bad now as it was in the early days, but the anti-Giant bias is still there. If Final Hit had significantly lower damage scaling like it should, it would not be an issue.
  • ShouKShouK
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    Then give Humans Hide, Mounted Archery, Full Swing, Wind Guard heck all Giants and Elfs specialty because Human only has final hit as their specialty.
    GretaVeylaine
  • EkaterinEkaterin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,360
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    edited January 8, 2018
    ShouK wrote: »
    Then give Humans Hide, Mounted Archery, Full Swing, Wind Guard heck all Giants and Elfs specialty because Human only has final hit as their specialty.

    Elf Exclusive Advantages:
    - Mirage Missile
    - Final Shot
    - Hide
    - 2 shots with normal bow
    - Improved Ice Spear
    - Very fast running speed
    - Archery while mounted
    - Quivers
    Disadvantages:
    - no dual wield or 2h weapons
    - no lance
    - worst Windmill damage, Smash damage and debuff chance, defense, counterattack damage
    - major Heavy Armor dex penalty
    - no Berserk skill

    Human Exclusive Advantages
    - Final Hit
    - Arrow Revolver
    - Dual Wield Swords
    Disadvantages
    - slowest running speed

    Giant Exclusive Advantages:
    - Giant Full Swing
    - Windguard
    - Dual Wield blunts
    - Stomp, Taunt, Throwing Attack (not particularly useful but I'll list them)
    - Charge without Shield (H/E capable with reforge)
    -improved Smash damage, Defense, Counterattack damage, Charge damage
    - use Lance and 2H swords with 1 hand, allowing shield use.
    Disadvantages
    - no Archery skills
    - worst Ice Spear, Magic Mastery
    - no Play Dead or Throw Rock
    - Magic requires more mana to use

    Humans have the fewest advantages, but the fewest disadvantages as well. There are a lot of minor things I am not listing. Many have been fixed (most instruments used to be H/E only for example) (lack of clothes options for giants) or semi-fixed (gacha only gave out H/E -CP gear, now some is all races but still not all) (the only dual-wield high-damage weapons in the game were swords until very recently).

    The core issue really is that Final Hit is a skill that gives super-fast (weapon speed) smash-level (500%) no-knockback repetitive attacks, and with reforges is almost constantly spammable. The skill is broken, honestly.
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
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    This thread is so hilariously full of biased opinions and falsehoods. I'd like to offer my own opinion and correct some of the falsehoods.

    1. Final hit multiplier is 400%, not 500%. Final hit is not the primary skill humans use for clearing content beyond shadow missions. It is not used for Alby or Rundal hardmode until the boss. It is not used in any of the Baltane missions because bolting or ice spear is better. It is not even used in Alban Heroic or Phantasm except at the boss stage to do single target dps or when you have failed setting up your other skills and need emergency teleport damage. Final hit is useful, however, in Sidhe where enemies are very spread out so teleporting around is useful, in shadow missions because monsters die in 1-2 hits, and in abyss dungeons because monsters are spread out and die in a few hits.

    2. Phantasm breaker is the best title in the game aside from Meteor Strike Master for mages, Battlefield Overture or Vivace Master titles for bards, and Crisis master title for puppet setups. Why is this title garbage? Do you prefer 2-3 damage more from Black Rose Master or Girgashiy Slayer over the 35 Matk, 40 MP, and 25 Will? Or a small damage boost to a single skill by using its master title? People seem to think that humans/giants like to cheese this dungeon by using lance charge, yet no one on Tarlach has done that, as that would be ridiculously slow. I don't know why some people consider elf horseback range as cheese, it's a cool race ability that elves have imo.

    3. Top of the Festia clobber ranks on Tarlach is a mix of elves/humans. An inactive elf player used to take top of single consistently, and the only reason humans have a chance in multi is because of splash with fanatic sword. Where exactly will splash with a fanatic sword be useful? Pretty much nowhere so the high damage of human clobber multi means nothing really. The race representation on clobber rankings are also skewed by the fact that most player are humans, so there are naturally more endgame human players than endgame elves, and thus more humans with the gear to outperform elves even though elves are better single dps.

    4. Top ranks on dungeon boss trials mean nothing really because the bosses are outdated and everything dies in 1-2 hits. If it was a Hardmode dungeon clear rank you would see elves on top of there.

    5. Humans have no advantages really other than final hit and a lower need for catering. Dual wield swords and arrow revolver are not advantages. Blunt mastery gives more damage than sword mastery, and giants can dual wield them. Arrow revolver is not used by humans except to finish deadly targets. Having more overall stats only allows you to perform better if you constantly rotate your skills on cooldown to maximize damage output with multiple different weapons. This advantage is nullified by catering/divine link, as any race can hit stat caps now with cater and divine link. So really, the stat advantage just means humans don't need to cater as much. If a giant/elf wanted to use cater more, they would hit stat caps just as easily. Disregarding echo stones because they are equal for all races, elves cap out at 40k with more DEX and INT than humans, so they really are the best archers and mages. At 40k, giants have more STR and Will than humans, so they are the best meleers/fighters/ninjas. A 40k human has no real stat advantage anymore.

    6. These threads always demand for a final hit nerf without providing any buffs. Sure I'll take a final hit nerf if I can get 400% aimspeed or 15% increased damage. Sure I'll take a final hit nerf if I can get a cooking pot offhand that provides 57 max damage. Sure I'll take a final hit nerf if I can get a shield that reduces any damage to 1.

    As a final word, I'd just like to say that this game is honestly playable as any race so we should all just get along and play instead of demanding for race nerfs/buffs. If you think the game is unplayable without final hit then.... try a human? It doesn't sound like you have invested as much into your giant/elf anyways if you think that one skill breaks the game. I would trade my 27k human for an equally geared/leveled elf anyday but I doubt anyone would take that trade.
    MizukiHayamaOdinwolfeShouKyinato
  • LutetiumLutetium
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,230
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    While I agree with the majority of the opinions stated in your post Food, I have to point out that Black Rose master adds a total of 21 (15 str, 2.5 str per max for melee/lance so an additional 6 max ontop of the 15 flat added) damage for melee and lance compared to Phantasm Breaker's 13. I also don't understand your claim of it being the second best for bards as it gives no music buff, where as Maestro gives +5 for all bard skills. Finally as for it being second best for mages, only for Blaze honestly, Master of Fire/Ice/Lightning beat out the 35 matk for intermediate spells with Meteor Strike Master only just beating those out in most cases by 100 or so damage (Blaze again being an exception).

    This coming from someone with a 24k elf who spent considerable time on a 16k human and now mains a currently 4.3k giant and wouldn't trade either for a human even if they get the most luck endgame so hopefully I've invested enough to be entitled to my opinion on what I believe to be a sub-par title in your eyes without you feel it's some sort of antagonizing at a personal level :)
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
    Mabinogi Rep: 980
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    Black Rose Master doesn't add 21 damage because STR is capped with just link, not even cater required. Maestro title wasn't even mentioned because if you bard, you use Battlefield or Vivace title. Meteor master and Breaker are best mage titles unless you only use one type of spell which.... prob no one does? Alban requires you to ice spear, lrod, and firebolt/fireball.

    It's the best title to use if you run stuff and are quick enough to switch between weapons that scale off max damage, weapons that scale off magic attack, and shurikens for kunai storms. If you actually run stuff without switching weapons and only want to charge fireball/firebolt or want to have 2 more damage with the Black Rose title while linked then ok, I guess it is subpar.

    And yea.... I said no one would trade end game elf/giant for humans because by then it's obvious which race has the advantage.
    ShouK
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
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    Oh yea, adding Magic attack also makes you tankier in mana shield if you don't use a reforge.
  • EkaterinEkaterin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,360
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    This thread is so hilariously full of biased opinions and falsehoods. I'd like to offer my own opinion and correct some of the falsehoods.

    1. Final hit multiplier is 400%, not 500%.

    According to the wiki, it's 400% Additional damage. 100% + 400% = 500%
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,750
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    edited January 11, 2018
    People seem to think that humans/giants like to cheese this dungeon by using lance charge, yet no one on Tarlach has done that, as that would be ridiculously slow. I don't know why some people consider elf horseback range as cheese, it's a cool race ability that elves have imo.
    Lance Charge on a crystal deer is a safe way of tackling some of the advance heavy stander bosses when you lack range options like if you're non-magic giants. Elf horseback range is only cheesy on a crystal deer which allows the elf to drop aggro after magnum. It's slower than other options but cheesing isn't necessarily about clearing fast but bypassing game mechanics that would otherwise add challenge to the game.
  • SherriSherri
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Would giving elves Arrow Revolver help?

    I'd kill for AR :(
    It's so much fun
    Zeo
  • KagaKaga
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    Tayjee wrote: »
    Funded Elves are the strongest race at the moment, it's just that you guys don't have an understanding of the end game. You're probably thinking about elves without funding. Elves have the fastest clear rates through out the board on relevant content like phantasm, sidhe (mostly boss), aahm ,rahm, cahm.


    What are you even saying? Mag hits 150-200k+ crits on 0.5s cooldown, crash shots hit over 150k on main target w/ sufficient target count and 40k+ on fragments, and they also have vision for the aim buff...

    You forgot to mention that you have to drop a lot of money, which most people don't want to.
    If the players who made these elf fast-clear videos put the amount of money they invested to be able to "fast-clear" in their video descriptions, no one would even bother playing as an elf to reach that so called "end-game" (unless your priority in life is a mess)
    TunfiskSherriNeynaZeoBehelitDaktaro
  • SiodhanSiodhan
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    FH would be nice, but I honestly just want them to make final shot last the same duration (+make reforges the same), give it a duration bar like way of the gun and make it so that we don't use dura while we have it turned on. That would already be enough for me. Reduces latency issues by a crapton and gives you the same kind of perk for quick clearing without wasting too much dura.
    SherriZeo
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 17,910
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    Siodhan wrote: »
    FH would be nice, but I honestly just want them to make final shot last the same duration (+make reforges the same), give it a duration bar like way of the gun and make it so that we don't use dura while we have it turned on. That would already be enough for me. Reduces latency issues by a crapton and gives you the same kind of perk for quick clearing without wasting too much dura.

    Not to mention how bulky and gross Final Shot teleporting is.
    Though to be honest, I don't see how they could fix that
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,750
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    Kaga wrote: »
    Tayjee wrote: »
    Funded Elves are the strongest race at the moment, it's just that you guys don't have an understanding of the end game. You're probably thinking about elves without funding. Elves have the fastest clear rates through out the board on relevant content like phantasm, sidhe (mostly boss), aahm ,rahm, cahm.


    What are you even saying? Mag hits 150-200k+ crits on 0.5s cooldown, crash shots hit over 150k on main target w/ sufficient target count and 40k+ on fragments, and they also have vision for the aim buff...

    You forgot to mention that you have to drop a lot of money, which most people don't want to.
    If the players who made these elf fast-clear videos put the amount of money they invested to be able to "fast-clear" in their video descriptions, no one would even bother playing as an elf to reach that so called "end-game" (unless your priority in life is a mess)

    The secret to 150-200k mag crits is really the magnum combo cards which requires real life dollars to renew. The glove reforges and the behomian set which is pretty cheap help too but the major factor is the combo card. The weapon you'll be using itself has huge diminishing returns as you upgrade to better and better weapons.
  • AmesenpaiAmesenpai
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    i want this and i play on my elf character all the time i always need it too. would be easier to finish things better
  • ToonToon
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    I swear NA playerbase is going to give me a heart attack
    Pip-BoyAzurexrin